Hi, loving these ranking/tier reviews of the Old World-it's awesome and I'm fully enjoying them! 😊 One very small point I'd like to raise (and it's more of a nice-to-have) is that sometimes there seems to be an assumption of knowledge about how units are kitted out or specific builds. For example, if a Bale Taurus would be T8 anyway, it would be great to hear a bit more about why for those of us who aren't power gamers or don’t attend multiple tournaments. It would really help casual players like me understand the reasoning behind the rankings. Thanks again for the great content! Keep up the great work 😊
Thanks for the kind words! I do try to explain what things are as we go through, but I definitely do miss some things. I'll try to make sure I explain as many as possible in the future!
I think you underestimate the black horror, you can take it on lvl 2 mages, and sitt way of of dispell range, and cast it with 27" range to the center with a reroll in case of failure. meaning it starts in inside the enemy army a lot of the time.
The best doppelganger caster by far is the vampire count: can consistently get +4 to cast, str 5 base and access to a GW, can get a flying t6 mount for 120 points or go all in for the zombie dragon (better at 2.5/2.25 etc than 2k). 2d6 st7 ap2 auto hits is an entire star dragon worth of offensive output. Plus ws7 makes glittering robe much better.
@@sclarke6969 I'm assuming you're taking a mortis engine, and making it the general. That gives it an 18'' bubble of +1 to cast, brining the level 3 vampire up to +4.
Hammerhand is pretty cool on Plaguepriest on Furnace, as he debuffs enemy T by -1, suddenly you have 2d3 effective S5 hits with -2 AP. And he can cast it quite reliably if there's no enemy wizard to dispel it. So even at lvl1 Priest can just YOLO cast it for 30pts.
So 2 things about the dark elf lore. #1 reducing the BS of ushabti greatbows or a Dwarven gunline bunker with that nasty thane in it: situational but very good. As far as I'm aware it is the only thing in the game that can make tomb king shooting less good. #2 If you're running 2x battle magic lvl 4's one with lore familiar and one with tome of furion and take 2x black horrors, that's 4 vortexs on the field. Using the focus familiars extra 12" range, you can cast those and just hang back out of dispel and watch the carnage unfold. I would put it in C personally.
Illusions best caster is of course, a High Priest on dragon in mortuary cult. Gobble up some wounds to boost your casting on everything. Glittering robe stacks with the built in -1 and the casket you'll want to run. Dragon movement allows you to position aggressively for column. The stacking modifiers to hit allow doppelganger to usually win combat with flail of skills or serpent staff, and the charge will get you in position for mirage on the following turns. Always take glittering robe on the dragon guy.
@@clearym8040 An honorable mention goes to the Necromancer on Mortis Engine. Doppelganger on a Sword of Kings is capable of wiping out Pegasus blocks among other things.
One problem that came up for me when I was using High Magic, Fury of Khaine doesn't just give an extra attack, it gives you the extra attacks (1) special rule. Does that work if a unit has additional hand weapons? As that also gives what seems to be the same special rule and shouldn't stack?
Vortexes such as spiritual vortex doesn't immediately stop you from giving ground since vortexes can't be placed touching units. So there is always a tiny gap between the unit's position and the vortex that they have to give ground with. If combat goes again from that position, then the vortex would prevent give ground.
How is curse of cowardly flight not terrible? Its a ld test which if they fail they dont even panic they just go back 2'', is there something im missing?
@@CloseOrder oh it forces a real panic test! Me and my whole group have played it as if the only downside is give ground, not as terrible as I thought then.
@@LordMacragge31 Yeah it a panic test so Undead (immune to psychology, which has immune to panic) and Slaanesh has immune to panic. They just give ground if they fail a LD test.
I do NOT want the 40K tempo of patches, tweaks and points adjustments. But... haveing Battle Magic nerfed. Haveing Dark Elves spells buffed. These things dont need to be huge. But atleast SOME pushes or pulls on the levers wpuld be welcome. An annual "patch" would be great. I dont even know how strong some lores are. Because everyone that can just runs Battle Magic...
So the Summoning is worse (less consistent shots and worse AP) and also the rest of the Lore is a mixed bag. The way we rated the faction lores was based on the 1 spell you'd take every time - as opposed to a full Lore you have to generate spells for
@@CloseOrder The Summoning has a higher average sure their a 2.8% chance to get 2 hits or 5.6% to get 3 hits you could also get 11 or 12. If you look at the armies that can use Daemonology, IMO most of the time they will be using it over other lores. *Beastmen* Daemonology 99% Elementalism 1% Your only taking Elementalism for Plague of Rust or a chance to get double Hagtree Fetish with Wind Blast. *Chaos Dwarfs* Daemonology 75% Elementalism 25% Elementalism got Plague of Rust, Wind Blast and Earthen Ramparts but then Daemonology got Daemonic Vessel and Daemonic Familiars which is great for your flying sorcerer. Also Gathering Darkness with your artillery and The Summoning if your not going to use Storm of Ash. *Empire* Daemonology 60% Illusion 30% Battle Magic 5% Elementalism 5% No option to get a 5th spell and only get 1 lore familiar, so your signature spell comes super important. Cause if your going double wizard your most likely going to use lore familiar with Illusion. *Warriors of Chaos* Daemonology 66% Battle Magic 33% Pretty much going to go Daemonology unless your Tzeentch. *Skaven* Grey Seer Battle Magic 25% Daemonology 25% Elementalism 25% Illusion 25% Plague Priest Battle Magic 66% Daemonology 33% To many variables on how you want to play.
Thank God, I was getting tired of hearing that High Magic is great. Just, no. Same for the lore of Saphery. Also regarding vaul's unmaking, everyone in the WoC has magic weapons that cannot be broken so it is useless for one of the main armies that you will face
Just a quick one: I am pretty sure that if a unit somehow gets 0 Toughness, they are considered dead. So Itchy Nuisance from the Lore of Mork has the potential to wipe out entire units with one good roll.
It has not, in the spell description it is written, that you can reduce the stats to a minimum of 1. But nonethelesse itchy nuisance is an awesome spell imo😊
I'd probably put Dark Magic under "build around". Biggest reason is unlike Necromancy, you can cast Word of Pain into a melee, and it has just enough more range to make it work. Plus, Battle Lust is a really flexible buff all-around, since it doesn't require Range: Self. The ability to yo-yo solo heroes is also quite handy. Shame its signature is so underwhelming though 😂
How does spell familiar and lore familiar combo allow you to take 3 magic missiles???? I thought you could only take 1 signature slot between lore/faction
Big fan of my chaos sorceror lord on chariot with daemonology. The self buff of attacks, strength and ap makes that chariot charge brutal! Also flying foresaken/ chaos ogres 24" is hilarious. Great counter to artillary hills
Remember that impact hits are made at base strength. Daemonic Vessel also only applies the extra AP to the weapons of the model, and impact hits don't use a weapon profile, so they are essentially unaffected by the spell. Of course the rest of the model get buffed, so it's still OK strong.
Hi, loving these ranking/tier reviews of the Old World-it's awesome and I'm fully enjoying them! 😊 One very small point I'd like to raise (and it's more of a nice-to-have) is that sometimes there seems to be an assumption of knowledge about how units are kitted out or specific builds. For example, if a Bale Taurus would be T8 anyway, it would be great to hear a bit more about why for those of us who aren't power gamers or don’t attend multiple tournaments. It would really help casual players like me understand the reasoning behind the rankings. Thanks again for the great content! Keep up the great work 😊
Thanks for the kind words!
I do try to explain what things are as we go through, but I definitely do miss some things.
I'll try to make sure I explain as many as possible in the future!
I think you underestimate the black horror, you can take it on lvl 2 mages, and sitt way of of dispell range, and cast it with 27" range to the center with a reroll in case of failure. meaning it starts in inside the enemy army a lot of the time.
The best doppelganger caster by far is the vampire count: can consistently get +4 to cast, str 5 base and access to a GW, can get a flying t6 mount for 120 points or go all in for the zombie dragon (better at 2.5/2.25 etc than 2k). 2d6 st7 ap2 auto hits is an entire star dragon worth of offensive output. Plus ws7 makes glittering robe much better.
wheres the +4 to cast coming from?
@@sclarke6969 I'm assuming you're taking a mortis engine, and making it the general. That gives it an 18'' bubble of +1 to cast, brining the level 3 vampire up to +4.
Hammerhand is pretty cool on Plaguepriest on Furnace, as he debuffs enemy T by -1, suddenly you have 2d3 effective S5 hits with -2 AP. And he can cast it quite reliably if there's no enemy wizard to dispel it. So even at lvl1 Priest can just YOLO cast it for 30pts.
So 2 things about the dark elf lore.
#1 reducing the BS of ushabti greatbows or a Dwarven gunline bunker with that nasty thane in it: situational but very good. As far as I'm aware it is the only thing in the game that can make tomb king shooting less good.
#2 If you're running 2x battle magic lvl 4's one with lore familiar and one with tome of furion and take 2x black horrors, that's 4 vortexs on the field. Using the focus familiars extra 12" range, you can cast those and just hang back out of dispel and watch the carnage unfold.
I would put it in C personally.
Illusions best caster is of course, a High Priest on dragon in mortuary cult. Gobble up some wounds to boost your casting on everything. Glittering robe stacks with the built in -1 and the casket you'll want to run. Dragon movement allows you to position aggressively for column. The stacking modifiers to hit allow doppelganger to usually win combat with flail of skills or serpent staff, and the charge will get you in position for mirage on the following turns. Always take glittering robe on the dragon guy.
@@clearym8040 An honorable mention goes to the Necromancer on Mortis Engine. Doppelganger on a Sword of Kings is capable of wiping out Pegasus blocks among other things.
One problem that came up for me when I was using High Magic, Fury of Khaine doesn't just give an extra attack, it gives you the extra attacks (1) special rule. Does that work if a unit has additional hand weapons? As that also gives what seems to be the same special rule and shouldn't stack?
P. 165 cumulative special rules. Extra attacks alter the attacks characteristic, thus it stacks. No worries
Great analysis!
Thanks!
My only issue with the analysis was that it was skewed a little by James playing Undead so heavily.
Vortexes such as spiritual vortex doesn't immediately stop you from giving ground since vortexes can't be placed touching units. So there is always a tiny gap between the unit's position and the vortex that they have to give ground with. If combat goes again from that position, then the vortex would prevent give ground.
How is curse of cowardly flight not terrible? Its a ld test which if they fail they dont even panic they just go back 2'', is there something im missing?
They only give ground if their immune to panic.
Other wise if their 50% or above they fall back in good order or flee if their lower then 50%
It is, but I've also lost to it.
As Grimgor says you Fall Back in Good Order - which can take you out of position pretty badly
@@CloseOrder oh it forces a real panic test! Me and my whole group have played it as if the only downside is give ground, not as terrible as I thought then.
@@LordMacragge31 Yeah it a panic test so Undead (immune to psychology, which has immune to panic) and Slaanesh has immune to panic.
They just give ground if they fail a LD test.
no rune lore, 0 out of 10, thats a grudging.
When the dwarf strikes your knee
Coz you didn't consider he
That's a grudling
I do NOT want the 40K tempo of patches, tweaks and points adjustments.
But... haveing Battle Magic nerfed. Haveing Dark Elves spells buffed.
These things dont need to be huge. But atleast SOME pushes or pulls on the levers wpuld be welcome.
An annual "patch" would be great. I dont even know how strong some lores are. Because everyone that can just runs Battle Magic...
Yeah I think occasional tweaks are needed, but I wouldn't want whole new armies every month!
So you give *Lore of Chaos* S tier because of *Blue Fire* but *Daemonology* B tier even when it signature spell *The Summoning* is just as good?
So the Summoning is worse (less consistent shots and worse AP) and also the rest of the Lore is a mixed bag.
The way we rated the faction lores was based on the 1 spell you'd take every time - as opposed to a full Lore you have to generate spells for
@@CloseOrder The Summoning has a higher average sure their a 2.8% chance to get 2 hits or 5.6% to get 3 hits you could also get 11 or 12.
If you look at the armies that can use Daemonology, IMO most of the time they will be using it over other lores.
*Beastmen*
Daemonology 99%
Elementalism 1%
Your only taking Elementalism for Plague of Rust or a chance to get double Hagtree Fetish with Wind Blast.
*Chaos Dwarfs*
Daemonology 75%
Elementalism 25%
Elementalism got Plague of Rust, Wind Blast and Earthen Ramparts but then Daemonology got Daemonic Vessel and Daemonic Familiars which is great for your flying sorcerer. Also Gathering Darkness with your artillery and The Summoning if your not going to use Storm of Ash.
*Empire*
Daemonology 60%
Illusion 30%
Battle Magic 5%
Elementalism 5%
No option to get a 5th spell and only get 1 lore familiar, so your signature spell comes super important. Cause if your going double wizard your most likely going to use lore familiar with Illusion.
*Warriors of Chaos*
Daemonology 66%
Battle Magic 33%
Pretty much going to go Daemonology unless your Tzeentch.
*Skaven*
Grey Seer
Battle Magic 25%
Daemonology 25%
Elementalism 25%
Illusion 25%
Plague Priest
Battle Magic 66%
Daemonology 33%
To many variables on how you want to play.
Thank God, I was getting tired of hearing that High Magic is great. Just, no.
Same for the lore of Saphery. Also regarding vaul's unmaking, everyone in the WoC has magic weapons that cannot be broken so it is useless for one of the main armies that you will face
Hell yeah, all my homies hate Lore of Saphery
@@CloseOrder Damn straight!
Just a quick one: I am pretty sure that if a unit somehow gets 0 Toughness, they are considered dead. So Itchy Nuisance from the Lore of Mork has the potential to wipe out entire units with one good roll.
It has not, in the spell description it is written, that you can reduce the stats to a minimum of 1. But nonethelesse itchy nuisance is an awesome spell imo😊
Oukt is right, although I think you could combo it with another spell if you could get another source of -1T to kill something
@@oukt237 Ooooh it does too! Damn lol
@@CloseOrder good point, worth looking up
I'd probably put Dark Magic under "build around". Biggest reason is unlike Necromancy, you can cast Word of Pain into a melee, and it has just enough more range to make it work.
Plus, Battle Lust is a really flexible buff all-around, since it doesn't require Range: Self. The ability to yo-yo solo heroes is also quite handy.
Shame its signature is so underwhelming though 😂
Black horror isn’t pillar, but it’s still good. Only hurts enemies, save potential dangerous terrain check.
How does spell familiar and lore familiar combo allow you to take 3 magic missiles???? I thought you could only take 1 signature slot between lore/faction
2 (Tzeentch Fire, and Fireball...which is NOT a signature), and a Vortex that you control the direction of.
Schools switched to number grades 20 years ago.
HA! That's not true (for the UK at least) since I left school 15 years ago
Big fan of my chaos sorceror lord on chariot with daemonology. The self buff of attacks, strength and ap makes that chariot charge brutal! Also flying foresaken/ chaos ogres 24" is hilarious. Great counter to artillary hills
Remember that impact hits are made at base strength. Daemonic Vessel also only applies the extra AP to the weapons of the model, and impact hits don't use a weapon profile, so they are essentially unaffected by the spell. Of course the rest of the model get buffed, so it's still OK strong.
@TheVacationist aye, thankfully I havent made that mistake. The extra 5 attacks is what makes it very good