BMW Fuel Supply Case Study -Part 1 (SI Ep. 15.6)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ต.ค. 2019
- After warming up on some Chryslers, it's time to turn up the heat on the Staten Island Express and tackle a BMW!
The info display on this 2012 535i Turbo warns the driver that there is a "Fuel Supply" problem, and to drive "moderately".
What are we getting into here?
Enjoy!
Ivan - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Excellent start to finding the issue. Thanks Ivan.
Oh man Ivan...another cliffhanger! I'll patiently wait for part 2.
Right??? Darn teasers!! 😂😂
I had this EXACT SAME PROBLEM with a Range Rover! The fuel pressure sensor was the issue! It was constantly reading a high pressure and the ECU would slowly turn the pump off till the engine died!
This Range Rover had a BMW engine and a Bosch fuel system that is very similar to the car in this video.
I think yes that pressure sensor reading is making the pump module turn down and off the pump to try decrease pressure
It makes a lot of sense. If the fuel pressure reading isn't leading to the pump being commanded off some other value is causing it. Seems very intentional "software wise".
Bosch is the modern Lucas, it just fails without letting the smoke out. At least Lucas did something so it was easy to find problems.
@@tiredoldmechanic1791
Lucas invented darkness.
@@tiredoldmechanic1791 From another old mechanic your comment is priceless. For forty five years I've been riding and restoring English motorcycles which makes it easier to find the smoke over a car. Godspeed my friend and keep on wrenching!
You always have a nice headache. I love it man. Regards.
Love the mind-bending BMW problems, better you than me, haha.
Another great video, Ivan. My guess is a bad fuel pressure sensor reading (too high) and so the ECM is sending a message to the FPCM to turn off the pump. I would check to see what the pressure is and what it's allowable range is. You may have to fire the parts cannon! (He's a BMW owner, he has the money.)
Very nice!
My answer to what would I do. I would invent a time machine ( if I were the owner ) and go back a tell my self to NEVER buy a BMW ever.
Well, we can do that next best thing and warn others that German quality is an oxymoron these days.
Check the fuel pressure sensor operation.
Good idea
What would be in your opinion be the best way to do it? According to the functional description, it's a simple voltage output. You could use a multimeter to measure the supply, ground and output signal, or an oscilloscope, or you could emulate the signal with a potmeter (and check set voltage with multimeter). I would opt for the last, since you can directly relate the voltage to the pressure that the ECU would have to display, so you have checked all wires and the ECU in one go and can then be sure that if the fuel pressure does not relate to what the ECU is telling you, the sensor is at fault.
www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f10-535i-lim/XS5Pcgs shows the output voltage vs fuel pressure.
@@tomvleeuwen I would start by checking if the sensor is functional at all -> do we see pressure change, when pump starts and when it turns off? Is the indicated pressure in expected range? Does it keep in that range when revving the engine up? If not, that can be the reason to the fault code.
If that is the case and pressure vs output V is known, I would install fuel pressure gauge, measure the sensor output V, read the indicated pressure from PCM and compare all three. If meter does not match with V and PCM pressure reading -> sensor. If pressure and V match -> wires or PCM. (Naturally check sensor 5V + gnd also)
the color of the flame from a lit road flare sitting on the seat will indicate the wind speed and the smoke the direction. its blowing from
Double check the com signal from the ECM to the Fuel Module. Maybe it's commanding it off or you are losing signal.
There`s your problem! It`s a Beemer!! Guess its not that fuel pump module. Pressure sensor looks bad. Psi did not drop when pump shut off. You got this Ivan.
I'd take a look at other data pids, fuel trim might show a rich condition due to another sensor acting up and command the low side fuel pump off. Worst case scenario, whip out ISTA and get crackin' 😆 it shows specs for each pid... Looking forward to part 2
what would i do? trade it for a reliable brand.
When you see BMWs sitting outside trailers with trash strewn all over the front yard, you know today's BMW is a very different car than it used to be.
BMWs have always been very reliable. You can rely on them breaking down constantly. It seems to me that the fuel pressure can't be over 90 psi without the pump running unless they have more than one pump. I'd look at the pressure sending unit but it's likely part of something else. I have found that in German made equipment, the cost of the part is directly related to the likelihood of failure. The most expensive part is often the one that fails.
I’d check fuel pressure to see if that sensor is reporting fuel pressure incorrectly.
Consult identifazio !!!
I would check actual feul pressure then feul pressure sensor for problem possible three wire sensor has open ground
Thanks 😊
What was the fuel rail pressure? I know on 2.0t Audi there's a high pressure switch, fuel rail, and low pressure switch, HPFP, I wonder if one is giving incorrect pressures.Kinda like a coolant temp sensor reading -40 degrees when it's bad. For the Audi standard pressure at idle is upper 70 psi at idle and around 50 with engine off. Will do 70+ when I open my drivers door to prime the fuel pump though.
Now I finally know your passcode!
Another teaser!! 😢😢😢
So far, I'm hooked. Seems like it needs some sort of calibration on the PCM.
So now we wait.... part 2.... 😅😅😅
What do you think Cuba? No parts required ?
@@jeremyanthony9300 I'm leaning that way.....
I can't wait to see what the issue really is!
Great guess, Cuba! Maybe we just need a really expensive fancy scanner haha ;)
So the fuel pressure isn't staying high enough between pulses of pump on time.
Is the pressure regulator leaking fuel back to the tank or a crap pressure sensor feeding rubbish data to the computer.
I would still run away as i know nothing about the subject lol :-D
I've seen this before, the fix is to jack up the horn place another car underneath do a memory reset for the horn and enjoy the rest of your day
Hahaha!
Dang, I wish I had you, Keith, and Eric O on speed dial!!
check the fuel lines at the pump. did they put the high pressure line on the low pressure side?
The fuel pressure sensor,early Mitsubishi GDI's have almost similar problems as well as VWs
I would be checking the fuel pressure sensor and also the throttle position sensor in case it is sending a false command or something. Guess we will see in part 2.
I would check the wiring to the low fuel pressure sensor and the sensor itself.
I don't suppose its the engine ecu is it, or is it switching off for some reason, like blocked fuel filter, some safeguard stuff..Fred in UK, sure you will sort it out..
love ur stuff !!thanks foe sharing .ok allrittey
It sounds like the system is switching it off for a reason, might be worth checking the fuel pressure, did you program the new module...F
If the fuel pressure sensor is reporting incorrectly for some reason (sensor/supply/wiring/actual blockage) then the poor pump module is being blamed when it is not at fault perhaps. If the ECM thinks the fuel pressure is high when it really isn't, all kinds of problems could occur. Good luck - Adding BMW to the list of cars I wouldn't buy.
And the SIE case studies continue.... 👨🏫👀
Very interesting failures so far.
thats a good one
Like others have said, i would check the fuel pressure sensor, the fact that the control unit is commanding the fuel pump to behave the way it is suggests to me a sensor/wiring problem.
Theory of Operation, my friend. The BWM N54/N55 Turbo 3.0L motors have 2 separate fuel pumps. The Low Pressure Fuel Pump (LPFP) must generate 72.5psi(5000hPA) above 300rpm, this pump is in the tank. The LPFP feeds the inline High Pressure Fuel Pump which is not in the tank. It must generate at least 120,000hPA (2000+ psi) to avoid a limp home mode running purely off the LPFP, boost will be disabled via the DME, the DME will turn OFF the HPFP, and the DME will add 40x plus injector pulse width to compensate for the 40x lower fuel pressure. Fuel Pressure sensor failures reading implausible measurements are common, N54 old style HPFP failures are extremely common(they were redesigned as you found in the documentation), as are stuck fuel injectors causing low pressure where the DME will throw codes and disable the HPFP to save the Catalytic Converters. The LPFP is NEVER commanded off by the DME, but can fail causing crank with no start conditions.
Excellent info, thank you Blaine! Definitely need to verify the reading of that low-pressure fuel sensor :)
test the fuel presser sensor ?
I do love my BMW’s but I have learned you have to have a computer to fix everything from O2’s to mass air flow sensors, service bs. Unless you are going to go BMW and stay with them and never pay for service you have to have a BMW service laptop software. Also if you have a late model the 20 pin diagnostic under to hook is the only good way to connect not the 16 pin OBD2. You can even use a jumper to reset services like oil changes. They have knock off or hack versions of the deal software and people have them for sale loaded up on a laptop ready to go for around $200-$250 if you look.
Any information on all data?? Keith going to jump on identifix
Run!
Yeah, gotta go with the guy who said to verify that the PID is correct and legit by using another scantool. Then verify pressure and check sensor. Thanks!
Yeah, you're very close to the problem. You're sitting in the problem.
LMFAO, AW HELL, GREAT ONE.
Finding a different chair to sit in would be a good idea. BMW is so complex. Hard to believe the many other parts of the vehicle will set off this problem and it isn't the fuel pump. Can we get any more complex ?
LOL, Getting Warmer... Warmer... Hot... Holy Crap your on fire! Get out Get out quick.
Ivan, what would I do?? I would be questioning everything, my leads,clamps, scan tools then I'd check the time and head to the bar for happy hour,Hahaha
I believe that year model came with a Smart Radiator Cap. Take the smart radiator cap off, drive another like kind quality BMW in place of inoperable one, install Smart Radiator Cap: problem solved. Seriously though, has anyone checked actual fuel pressure w/a gauge; line pressure and the fuel pressure regulator? Somethings going on between the actual fuel line pressure and what the ECU requires; miscommunication going on. Too bad all these newer BMW's dont come with a module that can tell you how many aftermarket (dorman) parts have been installed. Looking forward to part 7...err uh, I mean part 2.
If the fuel pressure is staying at 96 and not changing, either a faulty sensor, shorted wire or no communication between the sensor and fuel pump module.
Next, it's time to use a signal generator or potmeter or something like that to simulate the fuel pressure sensor and to see if the engine control module picks up this signal correctly.
So when do we get to see Part 2 ? ? ?
Man Ivan , those beamers really keep you busy . don't they?
I guess if it was a fuel pressure sensor problem it would be a sensor code but it is a possibility my guess is a wiring problem.
runs perfect w an external power source to the fuel pump?
Main ground to the module is good?
were you able to code the module? it looked like a ton of options there on your scan tool that looked a bit confusing.
All of the that ok. Something on the network has to be sending a signal to shut off the pump. any codes in other modules?
Do more research on the system/network.
Excellent thought process :)
Clogged filter on the fuel pump?
Check any inputs to the DME that pertain to shutting down the fuel system?
Where would I start to look for that
What woul I do next? Trade it in for a Honda.
TRADE IT IN FOR ANYTHING ELSE.
Keith probably has the factory scan tool for that car in his van!
A failing (but not failed) Fuel Pressure Sensor giving an erroneously high value may cause the Fuel Pump Control Module to dial back the pump in an attempt to lower pressure, and when pressure doesn't change, it just keeps going right up until the point it turns off. The Fuel Pressure Sensor may not be setting a code because the value it's sending back passes logic, hence "failing," not "failed." :]
All that being said, I have absolutely no idea what happens if you hook a Brushed DC motor to a power supply for a Brushless 3-Phase AC motor. Probably nothing in this case, since the connector color seems to be the only difference. Likely there'll be pins in different slots depending on which pump the vehicle gets equipped with.
do you think 13amps is high for a fuel pump
I assume the fuel pressure number at the rail is not accurate? 1000 something i think it was? Or maybe i missed a decimal?
It's direct injection 🙂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics What does that mean? I have a direct injection car, but there is a measurable fuel pressure at the "rail" that feeds the injectors.
Check the fuel pressure sensor
Second .. almost boom
We know Keiths going to tell Ivan to call Steve..it's a BMW = UK lol.
Keith’s the Ultimate Diagnostic Machine (UDM), needed to diagnose the Ultimate Driving Machine.
Leon wrecked!
👍👍
Why is there a Chinese sweet wrapper in the bottom of that Beamer's trunk?
It’s the fool pump, intermittent drop out. Otherwise it may need reprogramming.
Can you specify on the reprogramming part ???
@@joselowe3379 the EKPS module controls the fuel pump. the voltage delivered to a vehicle's fuel pump. By controlling the voltage, the module maintains optimal fuel pressure and fuel delivery to the engine throughout its full operating range.
Why do you take a picture of the launch's screen instead of taking a picture with the screenshot button on the bottom right? I have one too and it's a far more convenient way to do it.
Check the command wire for a fault to ground
maybe look at the fuel pressure and the sensor?
why so complicated- depends on your perspective. My BMW has 14 different computers that I can talk to. BUTTTT I'm a computer tech and absolutely love it. I can get so much data it practically* tells me it's health.. and sometimes, rarely does it tell me exactly what's wrong with it as it just doesn't break.
weak ground to module under spare tire? I assume you checked that ( I forget if you had the ground probed or not).
if battery voltage isn't dropping and the module is trying to demand more pump and it doesn't respond or cannot. then my next thought is make sure the ground is good. if yes, then monitor voltage and current to the pump itself and see if upstream pressure sensors match the output. very possibly bad pump 2.0, crushed fuel line, clogged filter. then again It's an BMW left rear tail light juice low :))
bah, by 11:25 I'd gamble on the fuel pressure sensor being bad (low pressure one), would have aimed the parts canon there at the start if I seen a solid 98PSI reading lol
bah, I've not taken into the account bad check valves/high pressure pump leaking the pressure back...... whoops.
I would change the pressure sensor.
Put new plugs and wires and ship it down the road!!!!! LOL
That's the kind of password they warn us about. :)
fuel pressure sensor
missed 1st by 5 minutes.... thatll teach me to watch tv while i should be watching youtube
I would call your beautiful wife and go have lunch/dinner! Forget about the car for the day! :)
YA NO SHIT, ME TOO.
First he gets the money from the BMW owner, then he can buy the dinner.
Measuring pressure sensor and actually pressure...next step.
Ivan, You are about 3 & 1/2 hrs away from me & I have an issue with my 03 focus that eludes me however, I do admit that there is one thing that I haven't done & should remove my ecu & figure out which wire controls my cooling fan & see if anything obvious appears, then test for voltage but, You IVAN, I consider to be the BEST! I have found a way to side step my issue partially, I have spliced into my cylinder head temp sensor & ran a toggle switch. When I activate the switch, the fans come on however, I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO FIX IT CORRECTLY & WOULD LOVE TO ONE DAY THIS SPRING OR SUMMER, TO PAY YOU A VISIT & SEE YOU WORK YOUR MAGIC? Though, I only get one day off per week & I work 6 hours that day & have the rest of the day to myself so, technically, it's called my day off but, NOT REALLY! Any who, I'd really like to hook up & get this issue figured out? I need to figure out which wire on my ecu, operates the cooling fan?
Sad. Another example of over complication of what should be a simple system.
Q: In the information you read it says one of the purposes of all that crap was to save fuel (or better gas mileage). How could shutting off the fuel pump save fuel. (except for the obvious savings of the engine not running at all ).
My (un-educated ) guess is there is a bad fuel pressure sensor telling the ECU the pressure is ok when it isn't. (Scan tool said it was high as well). Although it is strange that it is at odds with the other ECU programming that is reporting it's low and is not turning the pump back on.
Very strange.
Welcome to German overengineering
If the fuel pump uses less current, you can command the alternator to produce less current. So the engine has less resistant off the alternator. Its called clever engineering but somehow you americans don't get that with you're fuel consumming 5 ltr v8 with just 300hp.
@@spin1275gt You call it clever. Other people would call it inherently unreliable, hard to diagnose and expensive when it breaks. When, not if. When.
But I suppose that's not supposed to matter. It's disposable luxury. You're supposed to rent it and then throw it away at the end of the lease. Or palm it off on some sucker who doesn't know better.
Which would raise the point, you're saving a tiny amount of fuel in what is essentially a throwaway plastic car. Why.
@@opl500 who said anything about throwing away. And where do you see plastic in this technology. Its not the only fuel saving cleverness of this car. Variable cam timing, variable valve lift, lean burn when coasting. And still producing 305 hp. If you know how it works its not hard to diagnose. Ivan made the fault to continu the diagnose where the shop ended. He should have started from scratch and he will find out its the low fuel pressure sensor which its faulty. Just a 40 or 50 dollar part changed it 10 min. Can happen with every car.
@@spin1275gt All that does is add multiple failure points for the system and increase repair costs for the customer.
I would chase the fuel pressure sensor,which is in the engine bay if I’m not mistaking. Somebody is lying causing the engine computer to command the fuel pump control module to shut off the fuel pump because of high pressure. There’s no way the electric fuel pump in that thing is putting out almost 100 psi of pressure. But before I do all that I would switch scan tools and make sure that PID is true and that the scan tool is not lying to me.
Excellent suggestion!
This a classic symptom of FUEL INFECTION. Get antivirus software and cleanse the BMW computer.
Watch for part 2 and Keith's answer
Mr Jacek Fröhlich
and MrJean-Francois should be having a heart attack watching this video, so much technology and the same time lack of knowledge. poor Bima!
I would sell the BMW and buy a Toyota next. Scotty Kilmer knows all😁
Nice video and very useful...congratulations from Albania 🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱
Are you in Baghdad or Staten Island?
LOL Albania!
What I would I do next? Cuss, flip out, probably throw tools around, then rant in the comments sections about it in all you guys' vids. 🤣
But seriously, I would be thinking, right or wrong, that the skewed pump-off pressure reading has something to do with it. And knowing modern cars, that stupid magic box probably needs programming to work correctly, so BMW can rake in more money ... since that $50k sticker price clearly wasn't enough ... 😉
1st boom
What I would do ?
Ever since my boyhood, BMW (or bimmers as they er nicknamed around here) has been something you looked up to as the perfect car to own and drive.
Never owned one, as it turned out even old used BMW's still costs a fortune and are way too expensive to maintain and repair.
Many of my former boyfriends learned this lesson the (very, very) hard way.
I would avoid BMWs at all costs ... . They are for freaks with a surplus of funds 😨
Hey Ivan -- I think you might enjoy the epic ECM teardown and reverse engineering over on Colin O'Flynn's channel: Episode 1 is here: th-cam.com/video/Icw7GGriHzY/w-d-xo.html
i repaired this issue by repairing the existing ekpm3 . no need for programming or coding , shot out to the albanians in the background .
How much to send you mine to repair?😊
@@klwilcox where are u located
@@eurotech5316 Dallas TX
Where are you?
Does the PCM have a pid for fuel pump commanded output? Or possibly even a bi-directional control at the pcm to turn on the fuel pump?
EKPS is busted. Happends all the time
But it's brand new OEM!
bmw, why so complex a system. you would think we going for a trip to the moon in our cars.
stigonutube if you go,don't take a bmw.
@@jeffshearer5125 hehehe yeah not any modern car, what happen to "keep it simple and reliable".
EPA causes them to think this way. Too bad, the BMW techno team seems its best for computers and sensors to over ride the fuel pump duties. Not really, all they had to do was put in an inline volume/pressure regulator connected to the computer so the fix would be obvious if it fails.
damn ivan! youre getting close to the problem, then you call keith?? LOL.....well, got left hanging to see what horror of staten island brings LOL
drive that euro junk into the hudson!
Clogged fuel filter lol
Electrical issue maybe tap gas tank with rubber mallot... Lol
BMW STANDS FOR" BIG MESS WIRES ".
OH GAWD ANOTHER BMW, THIS WILL BE FUN, NOT. CUSTOMER COMPLAINT IS NOT A DAMN THING WORKS ,LOL AND HERE WE GOOOOOOO.
Most modules for BMW need to be programmed by a BMW computer.
Eccc atyy shqipe..je tu u marr me shqipet e nju jorkut or tej..be careful 😎🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱
I'm not a fan of that brand in any form because they do things like that...Sure is a curly one..
Burn down the car.