That's an interesting topic to talk about. Zen is a form of Buddhism that emphasizes meditation and direct experience of reality. It can be seen as a way of life, a philosophy, or a practice. But it is not a magic bullet that can solve all our problems. In fact, some Zen teachers have pointed out the limitations and pitfalls of Zen practice. - Joko Beck was a Zen teacher who taught that Zen meditation was not a technique for achieving enlightenment, but a way of being fully present and aware of ourselves and our surroundings. She said that Zen can make your life worse, because it exposes the truth of our suffering and dissatisfaction, and challenges us to face them without escaping or avoiding. She also said that Zen can make our life better, because it helps us to see the beauty and joy of each moment, and to appreciate the ordinary and simple things in life. - Barry Magid is a Zen teacher and a psychoanalyst who wrote about the curative fantasies of spiritual practice. He argued that many people approach Zen with the idea that they can somehow fix or improve themselves, or get rid of their flaws and problems. He called these curative fantasies, and said that they are a form of self-deception and attachment. He suggested that instead of trying to change ourselves, we should accept ourselves as we are, and work with our difficulties rather than against them. - Kodo Sawaki was a Zen master who was known for his rigorous emphasis on zazen, or just sitting. He often called Zen "wonderfully useless", meaning that it has no practical or worldly benefits, and that it is not a means to an end. He said that Zen is useless because it does not serve any purpose or goal, and that it is wonderful because it is free from any expectations or judgments. He taught that Zen is simply the expression of our true nature, and that we should practice it for its own sake, not for any rewards or results. - Someone using Zen meditation to cure his depression may find some relief and benefit from the practice, but may also encounter some challenges and difficulties. Zen meditation can help with depression by reducing stress, increasing mindfulness, enhancing self-compassion, and cultivating positive emotions. However, Zen meditation can also trigger negative emotions, memories, and thoughts, and may require facing some painful and unpleasant aspects of oneself and one's life. Zen meditation is not a substitute for professional help, and may need to be combined with other forms of treatment, such as therapy or medication. Zen meditation is not a cure for depression, but a way of living with it.
Nicely stated about the value of zazen vis-a-vis negative thoughts and emotions and also positive thoughts and emotions. This is one of the most valuables aspects of Zen practice in my opinion.
Astonishing.my. I've had a very similar experience. :- 18-55 . Then I binge listened to Alan Watts and read zen scripture , 6th Ppatriarch, lankavatara(?), heart and diamond sutra and compilation quotes books...then I sat in a chair and watched thoughts arising. 15minutes later Bang! there was a "gap" between what-was-watching and the gloomy thoughts...loosly:-- I redefined myself or better - found what I was not. However some "persistent thoughts", have returned recently probably due to recent stresses (I have to move out of my home). But it's lifting. After that meditation in 2013 ...I travel lighter. But the usual Zen stuff is there also ..yes its just something thats just happening. Like the weather. "What is it thats not englightened?lol. Ive become the space where depression occurs... ...I cannot find a "me"! I've never felt suicidal...but all the childhood trauma whatever have become a...thing. ...what you said ! I've been "touched by Grace" . But it came after maybe 1000hours of study.. Namaste❤️🙂😎
there is a lot of wisdom in what you are saying, hearing you this time made the advice click in my head, thank you, you are great a giving advice thank yoy I really appreciate what you do, and well you enjoy this too so its not entirely selfless lol.
This talk really put into perspective a few experiences I've had and my takeaways line up with yours as well, although yours put much better than I ever could! Perhaps my experiences could add some depth to this talk if anyone is reading comments and struggling, though perhaps not. I've also struggled with depression most of my life although until the time of this specific event, it hadn't so much deterred me from living or at least trying to. In the summer of 2020, while living alone and quarantined (and loving it), I got really sick. I've come to know it as long haul covid but to be honest, I'd just as quickly drop the covid from that and just say ME/CFS or something similar. To be honest, if I never had "long covid" I wouldn't believe it was a real thing. I'm still not so sure... What I do know is that out of the blue my body started to shut down in all sorts of ways. At first small things - my vision in low light, now completely blind. Then aches and pains in all my joints. My heart would race when I got up from the couch. My hair started falling out. Most importantly my mind started to go. My mood suddenly shifted into very dark places. It would be easy to say "well duh, your body was falling apart, of course you'd be depressed," and maybe I'm wrong here but I could tell it was part of the same problem but my depression and eventual anxiety were telling me stories about my life I'd told myself a thousands times without blinking. Suddenly aspects of my life were unbearable (even on days where physically I was okay). I came to realize as this state came and went over weeks and months that these "stories" were always there. Where I stood with my family or with my career, friends, aspirations. None of it had changed. I always knew they could be improved upon or worked on. I was happy being single and on my own, hell I was excited about being quarantined as I'd always wanted to go hide in a cave somewhere... I sort of got that wish at least for a few months. The point to all of this was to agree with what you're saying here. Depression and anxiety appear more bound to the body than to the mind. Even saying that I feel it is also the other way around.. Chicken and egg I suppose... maybe its all mind which creates the sick body which makes the mind sick and so on. Thats when I had the realization that there is the body.. duh.. there is the mind... duh... but that somehow there was a part of me above both. I could watch those negative thoughts and even feel them in my body but then not care on some level as well. I'm not as eloquent putting that into words as you are but you speak the truth here and I hope others can glean something from me sharing my experience. The point you make towards the end is a powerful one that I struggle with to this day. This "game" if we can call it that also robs you of really enjoying the good feelings too, but at the same time... the peace that I can sometimes find myself in is much more sustainable and somewhere I'd rather be. I'm rarely in that state these days... hell sometimes I wish I could go back to the intense suffering to be "in it." That's silly I know. In the end thats what's brought me to your videos Brad. It's time I start a practice and I know that. I have to actively do things to get back there and find that calm more often so that it percolates into the rest of my life and relationships as it did then even in hell. Maybe you do or don't know why you've never ended everything for yourself but your talks have helped me tremendously over the last few years and I think you for still being here with us. Wanted to finish with a relevant quote from E. Graham Howe (from the book "The Druid in Psychologists Clothing") speaking to depression: "First and foremost the patient must be protected against himself and kept alive, because however low he feels himself to be, the hands of the clock will one day bring him up and round again. How long that time will be we cannot tell, but - and this is the second cause for encouragement - it is a characteristic of depression that it is a temporary phase followed in course of time by its conclusion. Depression, like any other disease, is like a clock. It may be fast or slow, but the hands are always moving." For anyone out there struggling, take Brad's advice and give it a shot. There is something to be found. At the very least it will give you something to do while you wait it out.
Thanks. You asked for questions before so... I'm trying to wrap my head around the relationship between Dharma & karma. I've kinda got a climate & weather relationship idea (Buddha Dharma as climate &, karma as weather) with karma accruing when we act against Dharma, but that's probably just my taoism showing.
I would say that you always get depressed about an imagined or actual personal deficit. you don't seem to be enough. And you will always think about that a lot, and I think that's good and important. It has a lot to do with a basic trust in yourself. Apart from that, a healthy microbiome plays an immense role. This is very underestimated. Just like exercise is very helpful. After a 90 minutes stroll in the forest, you may wonder what was wrong with you.
Depression if not pathological then it is easily manageable. First Do not feed yourself with the thought that you are depressed as mind will feed itself with negative opinion. So rather focus on this , do some opposite things which you are not doing everyday, like do things which you do not do.. Go for walk, go to jungle, go for horse riding, go for swiming, go for mountain , do something new. See comedian stand up shows. Avoid old routine things. Do your Meditation. Seek help. Check vit D and do proper diet. etc. Keep in mind that people will never tell you truth even they are worried about you. Depression is caused by system which people has created and it is side effect of this system. People forget their originality and one become so artificial and is lost in day light. Go back to your originality and real self. PROBLEM IS FROM INSIDE AND SOLUTION ALSO LIES THERE. Your real treasure lies inside of you.
So the problem/risk with your way of describing depression (which you have every right to express) is that you say it's just a feeling. The medical term is mood disorder of *persistent" feeling of sadness etc, so it might be misleading if you put it in a narrower term. Good that you added this disclaimer about not being qualified, it doesn't make speaking about your own experience less worthy.
That's an interesting topic to talk about. Zen is a form of Buddhism that emphasizes meditation and direct experience of reality. It can be seen as a way of life, a philosophy, or a practice. But it is not a magic bullet that can solve all our problems. In fact, some Zen teachers have pointed out the limitations and pitfalls of Zen practice.
- Joko Beck was a Zen teacher who taught that Zen meditation was not a technique for achieving enlightenment, but a way of being fully present and aware of ourselves and our surroundings. She said that Zen can make your life worse, because it exposes the truth of our suffering and dissatisfaction, and challenges us to face them without escaping or avoiding. She also said that Zen can make our life better, because it helps us to see the beauty and joy of each moment, and to appreciate the ordinary and simple things in life.
- Barry Magid is a Zen teacher and a psychoanalyst who wrote about the curative fantasies of spiritual practice. He argued that many people approach Zen with the idea that they can somehow fix or improve themselves, or get rid of their flaws and problems. He called these curative fantasies, and said that they are a form of self-deception and attachment. He suggested that instead of trying to change ourselves, we should accept ourselves as we are, and work with our difficulties rather than against them.
- Kodo Sawaki was a Zen master who was known for his rigorous emphasis on zazen, or just sitting. He often called Zen "wonderfully useless", meaning that it has no practical or worldly benefits, and that it is not a means to an end. He said that Zen is useless because it does not serve any purpose or goal, and that it is wonderful because it is free from any expectations or judgments. He taught that Zen is simply the expression of our true nature, and that we should practice it for its own sake, not for any rewards or results.
- Someone using Zen meditation to cure his depression may find some relief and benefit from the practice, but may also encounter some challenges and difficulties. Zen meditation can help with depression by reducing stress, increasing mindfulness, enhancing self-compassion, and cultivating positive emotions. However, Zen meditation can also trigger negative emotions, memories, and thoughts, and may require facing some painful and unpleasant aspects of oneself and one's life. Zen meditation is not a substitute for professional help, and may need to be combined with other forms of treatment, such as therapy or medication. Zen meditation is not a cure for depression, but a way of living with it.
Thank you Brad. your words are always insightful and very helpful.
Nicely stated about the value of zazen vis-a-vis negative thoughts and emotions and also positive thoughts and emotions. This is one of the most valuables aspects of Zen practice in my opinion.
Push through Warner! We are all rooting for you
Astonishing.my.
I've had a very similar experience. :-
18-55 . Then I binge listened to Alan Watts and read zen scripture , 6th Ppatriarch, lankavatara(?), heart and diamond sutra and compilation quotes books...then I sat in a chair and watched thoughts arising. 15minutes later Bang! there was a "gap" between what-was-watching and the gloomy thoughts...loosly:-- I redefined myself or better - found what I was not.
However some "persistent thoughts", have returned recently probably due to recent stresses (I have to move out of my home).
But it's lifting.
After that meditation in 2013 ...I travel lighter. But the usual Zen stuff is there also ..yes its just something thats just happening. Like the weather. "What is it thats not englightened?lol. Ive become the space where depression occurs... ...I cannot find a "me"!
I've never felt suicidal...but all the childhood trauma whatever have become a...thing.
...what you said !
I've been "touched by Grace" . But it came after maybe 1000hours of study..
Namaste❤️🙂😎
Typos . Sorry. I'm on my phone
I studied psychology and I had social anxiety and depression for ten years so I agree cause Zen worked for me .
there is a lot of wisdom in what you are saying, hearing you this time made the advice click in my head, thank you, you are great a giving advice thank yoy I really appreciate what you do, and well you enjoy this too so its not entirely selfless lol.
Great stuff. Reminds me of Pema's talking about sitting with difficult things, which got me through my last major depression (a decade ago).
This talk really put into perspective a few experiences I've had and my takeaways line up with yours as well, although yours put much better than I ever could!
Perhaps my experiences could add some depth to this talk if anyone is reading comments and struggling, though perhaps not.
I've also struggled with depression most of my life although until the time of this specific event, it hadn't so much deterred me from living or at least trying to. In the summer of 2020, while living alone and quarantined (and loving it), I got really sick. I've come to know it as long haul covid but to be honest, I'd just as quickly drop the covid from that and just say ME/CFS or something similar. To be honest, if I never had "long covid" I wouldn't believe it was a real thing. I'm still not so sure... What I do know is that out of the blue my body started to shut down in all sorts of ways.
At first small things - my vision in low light, now completely blind. Then aches and pains in all my joints. My heart would race when I got up from the couch. My hair started falling out. Most importantly my mind started to go. My mood suddenly shifted into very dark places. It would be easy to say "well duh, your body was falling apart, of course you'd be depressed," and maybe I'm wrong here but I could tell it was part of the same problem but my depression and eventual anxiety were telling me stories about my life I'd told myself a thousands times without blinking. Suddenly aspects of my life were unbearable (even on days where physically I was okay).
I came to realize as this state came and went over weeks and months that these "stories" were always there. Where I stood with my family or with my career, friends, aspirations. None of it had changed. I always knew they could be improved upon or worked on. I was happy being single and on my own, hell I was excited about being quarantined as I'd always wanted to go hide in a cave somewhere... I sort of got that wish at least for a few months. The point to all of this was to agree with what you're saying here. Depression and anxiety appear more bound to the body than to the mind. Even saying that I feel it is also the other way around.. Chicken and egg I suppose... maybe its all mind which creates the sick body which makes the mind sick and so on.
Thats when I had the realization that there is the body.. duh.. there is the mind... duh... but that somehow there was a part of me above both. I could watch those negative thoughts and even feel them in my body but then not care on some level as well. I'm not as eloquent putting that into words as you are but you speak the truth here and I hope others can glean something from me sharing my experience.
The point you make towards the end is a powerful one that I struggle with to this day. This "game" if we can call it that also robs you of really enjoying the good feelings too, but at the same time... the peace that I can sometimes find myself in is much more sustainable and somewhere I'd rather be. I'm rarely in that state these days... hell sometimes I wish I could go back to the intense suffering to be "in it." That's silly I know.
In the end thats what's brought me to your videos Brad. It's time I start a practice and I know that. I have to actively do things to get back there and find that calm more often so that it percolates into the rest of my life and relationships as it did then even in hell. Maybe you do or don't know why you've never ended everything for yourself but your talks have helped me tremendously over the last few years and I think you for still being here with us.
Wanted to finish with a relevant quote from E. Graham Howe (from the book "The Druid in Psychologists Clothing") speaking to depression:
"First and foremost the patient must be protected against himself and kept alive, because however low he feels himself to be, the hands of the clock will one day bring him up and round again. How long that time will be we cannot tell, but - and this is the second cause for encouragement - it is a characteristic of depression that it is a temporary phase followed in course of time by its conclusion. Depression, like any other disease, is like a clock. It may be fast or slow, but the hands are always moving."
For anyone out there struggling, take Brad's advice and give it a shot. There is something to be found. At the very least it will give you something to do while you wait it out.
Thanks.
You asked for questions before so... I'm trying to wrap my head around the relationship between Dharma & karma. I've kinda got a climate & weather relationship idea (Buddha Dharma as climate &, karma as weather) with karma accruing when we act against Dharma, but that's probably just my taoism showing.
thank q ☺
Did Godzilla every get depressed?
Vegetarianism is a great way to feel depressed and have migraines. Try the carnivore diet it can transform your health
I would say that you always get depressed about an imagined or actual personal deficit. you don't seem to be enough. And you will always think about that a lot, and I think that's good and important. It has a lot to do with a basic trust in yourself.
Apart from that, a healthy microbiome plays an immense role. This is very underestimated. Just like exercise is very helpful. After a 90 minutes stroll in the forest, you may wonder what was wrong with you.
Depression if not pathological then it is easily manageable. First Do not feed yourself with the thought that you are depressed as mind will feed itself with negative opinion. So rather focus on this , do some opposite things which you are not doing everyday, like do things which you do not do.. Go for walk, go to jungle, go for horse riding, go for swiming, go for mountain , do something new. See comedian stand up shows. Avoid old routine things. Do your Meditation. Seek help. Check vit D and do proper diet. etc. Keep in mind that people will never tell you truth even they are worried about you. Depression is caused by system which people has created and it is side effect of this system. People forget their originality and one become so artificial and is lost in day light. Go back to your originality and real self. PROBLEM IS FROM INSIDE AND SOLUTION ALSO LIES THERE. Your real treasure lies inside of you.
So the problem/risk with your way of describing depression (which you have every right to express) is that you say it's just a feeling. The medical term is mood disorder of *persistent" feeling of sadness etc, so it might be misleading if you put it in a narrower term. Good that you added this disclaimer about not being qualified, it doesn't make speaking about your own experience less worthy.
worst zazen i ever had
It was like a miracle