In this episode, we describe the death of Joseph Smith as a direct result of his teachings. However, there were also ongoing conflicts between Smith, his followers, and the State of Illinois, culminating in Smith being arrested and declaring martial law. Smith's death was as much about politics and power as it was about his religious beliefs.
All of us watching our charismatic leader John Green using a broadcasting system to spread the word to its fervent followers, complete with its own catchy music, jargon, and even symbols (challenge coins). We’re here for it! 😂
Anyone who’s ever been in a marching band with a charismatic band director knows that some of the associations people typically make with cults can describe non-religious subcultural groups, too.
Definitely! I've definitely found applying the BITE model & Influence Continuum are really useful tools to think about cults less in a black and white "is a cult" vs "is not a cult" way, and more of thinking about where an organization falls along the lines of "more controlling" vs "less controlling"
Perfect, I was gonna comment about this, but you already did. The first time I heard of it, it sounded more actionable. Of course, "high control" might be a bit of a varying threshold for some situations.
Yes! It's also useful because it doesn't have the connotation of the group always being both harmful and religious, but instead just describes the amount of influence the group has over the members. It's much easier to help people learn to recognize whether or not they're in a high control group if you can frame it in a way where you are just talking about how to assess the influence of a group rather than associating it with a label has has an immediate negative connotation
Another term is high control group. These can be religious or they can be secular. Cults happen within religions, like a homeschool group or a single church. Even 1 singular family can be a high control group/cult. Mlms and businesses can be cults. See the BITE model for clear standards. It’s important to understand how governments, businesses, and religions can utilize the same control tactics.
As an ex-Mormon, I’m an advocate of the phrasing “high-demand” religion. It’s very similar, and “high-control” definitely encompasses the extreme end - which I believe the structure of my former community has entrenched.
I'm truly impressed with how much nuance this video managed to pack into 10 minutes. I wasn't expecting the angle it took, but I'm surprised how much I agree with it. It's good to see that neither the harm caused by smaller religious movements nor the harm caused by more mainstream ones was ignored. Like John and Hank often say, it's a complex issue, and it deserves to be understood complexly!
John, I know you’ve been crazy worried about this series but goddamn was this a good episode of Crash Course. This is the kind of nuanced and compassionate thinking that I come here for!!
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I involuntarily cringe every time an outside group gives a synopsis or history because I'm so used to people getting it wrong intentionally or unintentionally. I got through John's description without cringing.
Former Latter Day Saint here. First of all, while I have quite a few personal bones to pick with the church of my youth, I actually really appreciate the way the Mormon movement's origins were handled here. You obviously didn't have time to go into any kind of detail, but with what little time you did have you managed to hammer home that there's a whole lot of history and complexity behind your short overview of the faith. The LDS church, and the various subcultures that orbit it, are in desperate need of this kind of mature, understanding discourse. It's something I want to help change, something that I'm frequently trying to encourage in my own way. It speaks volumes to me about how you're likely approaching this whole series. Thanks John, and thanks to the rest of the Crash Course team. You're a good in the world.
I find Mormonism is a good litmus test of how religious discourse proceeds. Whatever may be said of it it is incredibly polarizing, so anyone discussing it from a place of respect and neutrality is a rare thing, and therefore indicative of how future discussion is likely to go.
In French, the word "culte" literally just means "worship." The word that's used instead is "secte", which is a word without a negative connotation in English.
The word "sect" comes from a Latin word meaning "to cut", and I think this is the most clear and concise definition of what makes something a cult: it is a subdivision of some main religion that is different enough from it to be considered its own thing...
I've always applied the rule that if a group tries to isolate you from other people in your life, then it's a cult. I also don't think the two are mutually exclusive. A religion can be a cult.
That makes a lot of sense. And by extent, I feel like some mainstream religions, when taken to an extreme, become cult-like. If a group of religious extremists want to forbid certain thought practices under punishment of death or even genocide, then it's a cult.
I'm sorry I need to sidestep the conversation for second... 250 HOMES?!? - ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?! I haven't quite found the words to accurately describe how I'm feeling after hearing this information. The amount of things I have learned about my country's history in school growing up, the same shit over and over again, but never this. In the area of history, I feel so cheated in my public education.
Thank you for making this nuanced video. As an atheist who grew up in a secular household, I always found that there's a blurred line between "religion" and "cult". Some people end up in small religious communities that provided them with comfort and a healthy lifestyle, while others end up being part of a major world religion but have a toxic relationship with some other members of that religion. It's reassuring to find out that the distinction is fuzzy and maybe not particularly helpful.
I had absolutely NO IDEA about the MOVE bombing, which just goes to show how education skews in the United States. Thanks for covering that and bringing awareness to it, John.
My line for what counts as a cult versus what's a religion is based on how members are instructed in regards to non-members. If your religion instructs you to stop interacting with people who are outside your religion, particularly if that applies to friends and family, then you are in a cult. What makes a cult, for me, is that it tries to isolate it's members such that it becomes the only source of belonging. Seeking control.
@@benjaminmatheny6683 eh, some cults/high control groups don't completely stop you from interacting with non-members, but they will incentivise you to become friends with outsiders for the purposes of "showing them the light" or "showing them how happy we are," basically encouraging out-group "friendships" with the underlying purpose of further recruitment.
I grew up with a mormon mom and a Muslim father. They still practice their respective religions and are still happily married. They raised me to find my own path in life, arming me with the tools of tolerance, understanding, and empathy. I thank them every day for this. These videos remind me of them. And they remind me that world truly can live together peacefully. ❤️ ✌️
I'd like to stress a point: A cult is characterized by intense control over its members through psychological and social manipulation. A common practice is isolating them from outside influences. This is why leaving a cult is often traumatic, as former members struggle to rebuild their sense of identity and reconnect with the world they were cut off from. Stil, I agree about the similarities between religions and cults
I'm so proud of the Crash Course team. Moving through this topic with nuance, compassion, inquiry, and all wrapped up together in a smooth flowing narrative. Pure excellence in education. Thank you so much for all your work in creating and sharing these with the world!
Hey crash course team! Member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here. Thank you for your thoughtful discussion of my faith! You guys are such great educators. I want to mention that the "Church of Jesus Christ" part of the title is kind of important to us because we worship Jesus Christ. Because of our other past names, people accuse us of not worshiping Jesus--that's why we started emphasizing the full name. I know the name is long (I had to say it all the time as a missionary), and I really appreciate y'all for not using Mormon exclusively but explaining where the nickname came from. Thank you again for your nuance and respect :)
This might be my favorite Crash Course series so far. Please keep making them! I really appreciate these insightful, respectful, yet humorous videos. Well done! :)
This quote. Thank you for this quote: "Some scholars argue that the 'cult' label reveals less about the group itself and more about who's using the label."
As a former member of the LDS Church but still a Mormon, I completely agree. Any group of people, religious or not, can display harmful or cult-like behavior regardless of its label or age, and using such a loaded term as “cult” only serves to marginalize and denigrate one community as inherently evil while implicitly absolving one’s one from any potential wrongdoing. Thank you so much for making this series to address such a relevant topic in all of our lives!
As a previous Mormon, I was elated to see crash course religion. The title of this video made me hope LDS would be mentioned. Amazing work with these videos.
As a current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I had a feeling this course would mention it and also would be accurate. Thank you, Crash Course.
Same here - Tough subject since the word "cult" has different meanings to different people. Seems John tapped in to Steve Hassan's definition a little with the part about cults having a charismatic leader.
As a practicing member, I was really nervous about this episode. Instead, I was only met with compassion and understanding. Really great video, and he made all of the points I was hoping he would make. It is pointless and harmful to call these organizations cults! Thank goodness that CrashCourse does their research and is actually logical.
I did a paper on cults and so much of my research really got hung up on this same issue of actually defining a cult. Not on new religious movements are harmful and some very legitimate religious groups are. It's a very complicated word. I loved this video. Thank you for these religion courses!
"High demand religion" is a term i have heard many former mormon/evangelicals use to describe "cult-like" organizations. If an organization/ institution demands high levels of control, obedience, sacrifice etc (i know 'high' is a subjective word here, but you know what i mean)
Thanks for translating "Santa Muerte" as "Saint Death". It drives me crazy when simple things that are easy to translate aren't to make them seem more exotic
To an extent I agree but bear in mind that this could be considered a proper noun and many proper nouns are not translated. Sometimes doing so is even considered offensive, such as when done to a person's name. It's not a hard and fast rule, though.
Current "Mormon" (LDS) here. As always, thank you for an impartial, accurate, and complex take. I was hoping for an honorable mention in this particular video, honestly.
I really appreciate this series. For a while now, I’ve been thinking of looking into religions (particularly Christianity) from an academic perspective but had no idea where to look. So to see Crash Course tackling this in the typical Crash Course style is just really comforting and cozy.
Fantastic to see this series, I have been watching the Gresham lectures on history of Christianity and related topics and its great to see Crash Course addressing it, the tone and style of this is great for this topic. Thank you for presenting this responsibly. It was a line about religion that stopped me watching crashcourse history for years the first time watching it, I'm glad I came back and gave your videos another shot and gladder still you are tackling this topic fully, with the focus and weight it requires to avoid lines like that. The Church I am a member of, Te Haahi Rātana, is considered a cult by many as it is a Church of resistance against colonisation, a Church for cultural preservation and a Prophetic movement in the tradition of the Māori Prophets, intrepreting Christianity through an Indigenous lens. I prefer the 'cult as a term for a high control group that meets X specific legal definition' version of the term cult over, small group that is wrong as that approaches the 'heresy','religion',etc definitions that are just another way of shutting down discussion and saying 'is wrong to me', not acting as a term useful in really, any context, for advancing discourse or understanding.
This….felt like old-school crash course. Not quite the optimism and “omg I can’t believe all this is happening” of World History 1, but it really felt like John got back into his groove with this one.
Alternatively, religions are a subset of the set of all collections of propositions (not necessarily a consistent formal system) that are generally regarded as being “explanatory of the existence of things”. It’s great to keep in mind that words are used are associated with patterns in sensory information, and definitions that generally approximate and align with the usage of the word are made after the fact.
These explanations make the most sense once we stop tip-toeing around the similarities between what gets called a cult and what gets called a religion, as well as the upcoming what gets called magic. Any time you set up a divinely ordained or inspired hierarchy you're going to have similar pitfalls and dangers.
Thanks for treating discussion of my religion (LDS) with care and understanding. We're not perfect, and things could definitely be worse (and are for many others), but having grown up being mocked and talked down to, to the point where I often get nervous when mentioning my faith to people I want to befriend or even people I just want to see me as an equal. It's nice to be portrayed in such a human way, rather than as a topic of scandal, ridicule, or dread.
Thanks CrashCourse for the best explanation of Cult Vs Religion! I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I get asked all the time if it’s a cult, and I wasn’t sure how to answer. Now I’ve got this video for reference!! Yall rock!
The way that I see it, using the word "cult" to describe groups shouldn't be binary. It isn't "yes" or "no," but more of a spectrum of how culty the group is. How culty a group is can be determined by utilizing the BITE model to analyze how much the group controls its members. More control over the members makes the group more culty. Especially so if there are rules or customs that make it difficult for members to leave the group.
As an aspiring classicist and actual Hellenic Pagan i occasionally get so wrapped up in the ancient connotation of "cultus" (which is, fundamentally, just any group performing worship outside the state-sponsored holidays) that i forget its a bad word in modern context lol
"Cults" have specific indicators. Isolation from outsiders, strong "donations" to a central core of leadership, rigid doctrine from the internal leadership, etc. Most significantly, not enough money to litigate against anyone calling them a cult.
Great job covering the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints! As a follower of the religion myself, I felt like you did a great job covering it in a respectful manner. Thank you for that!
As a former follower of the LDS church, I agree. I find that most coverage tends to be either unjustifiably positive toward it or unfairly negative toward it. This displayed neither of those biases, in my opinion.
In France, recognizing the danger of calling things "cults" ("sectes"), we now have the official term of "dérives sectaires" which means "sectarian drift". This term is used by governmental groups to identify movements that seriously harm their members. They can be "new religions" or groups of mainstream religions, but also non-religious groups that fall in similar problems (like MLM for instance).
Plus, the term "cult" and its cognates or translations can have different meanings across languages, cultures and context. In German, something has "Kultstatus" (cult status) not because of anything religious or spiritual, but just because its "a classic" or a cultural icon that has endured for a siginificant length of time, e.g. the most famous character in German children's TV, Bernd, das Brot (Bernd, the bread).
Something similar happens in Spanish (at least chilean Spanish) . The word "culto" can mean the same as "cult" but also "worship" and if you refer to something as "de culto" it may refer to something that is worshipped or very much appreciate by a somewhat limited amout of people. You can also use the word "secta" in the same way as it is used in german. Very interesting.
I have been a fan of just about every crash course I have seen. But be the most meaningful to me. I loved it. I love your intellectual honesty with which you approach everything is a constant reminder of what "good" looks like and where to find it in the world. I found your discussion of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints particularly poignant since I am a member. You correctly identified how labeling us as a cult during our early years led to decades of horrific treatment and multiple expulsions from the communities we tried to build. All while acknowledging that the power my church wields can be dangerous and has not always been benign in every member's life.
"High control group" or "high control religion" is much more effective I've found in spreading awareness about the dangers that such groups can cause. As a 10 year survivor from one of these toxic groups, I've found that using the word "cult" to describe a religion often makes people put their walls up and shut you down almost immediately because there is so much negative association with the word cult.Especially when I was trying to spread awareness to active members. High control is a better way to describe something that may be cultish without making people immediately defensive.
I feel that cult doesn't even need to have a "spiritual" or "religious" element in it. Even certain political parties get labelled as 'cult' due to the harm they cause.
As a few others have already said, the internet is a very hostile place for practicing Latter-Day Saints, and so I am super appreciative of this measured and compassionate tone in this video. You made all of the points that I was hoping you'd make! Telling me that I'm in a cult does no one any favors. ❤
Excellent episode 👍 glad to see a neutral treatment of my faith (latter-day saint) I was nervous and excited to see how it would be treated, but you did a wonderful job presenting the story without spinning the narrative. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for this well thought out and eloquently articulated video. I am a part of a new religious group that gets blanket labeled as a cult. It is frustrating because people accuse us of being secretive when we do so because we are trying to avoid persecution. I agree the word "cult" is misused and generally means "I don't like them, and I don't want other people to like them." Education and open discussion will accomplish much more than unproductive name calling. Thank you again for this well-done video.
I love how when John announces next week's topic he already seems tired of how thorny it's going to be lol. Though he shouldn't, the series has been excellently written so far!
First time following a crash course series as it gets released each week rather than cramming. I think I might actually be processing retaining the information. Wild
The best bit of wisdom on "cults"/ any high-control group is that nobody joins a cult. They join a church, or a meditation group, or an herbalism class, and find that it provides, in some form, something they want. It's important to remember that people who join high-control groups are no less intelligent than you or I--both to remember how such groups work and to be aware of our own potential vulnerability.
1:30 As a latter day saint, I'm always fearful of how my church will be approached in this type of setting. I think this was done respectfully, and I appreciate that a lot.
Maybe it's because I'm an agnostic atheist but to me I'm the type to basically view "cult" and "religion" as functionally synonymous (with only size and popularity being the differing factors), BUT that doesn't necessarily speak to whether the practitioners of either are necessarily bad. Rather, as what is implied in the video, all religious movements have the capacity to develop the negative attributes that are popularly associated with cults and not religions by the religious.
Distinguishing a cult from a religion as though religion could be without sin is a mistake I agree. However, cult is a useful moniker for predicting behavior. Particularly when you narrow down the definition to a group which exerts a high level of control over its members. I would personally add that the epistomology of the group is also an important distinction. Specifically whether its claims to authority are couched in falsifyable or unfalsifyable claims. This isn't to exclude falsifyable groups that have a high level of control. Rather a high level of control is a necessary adaptation to compensate for the unfalsifyability of claims to authority. Groups of this kind are as memetic structures pruned by communication based natural selection to adopt common features. It's convergent memetic evolution.
The term I see used most often for these groups is ‘high-control religion.’ The term focuses on the problematic behaviors-the high control of members thoughts and actions-without the implication that the organization in question is just new and weird. Because it focuses on the behavior, it can apply to many groups that are causing harm, not just religion. It distinguishes between ordinary group membership and those where abuse is rampant. While I appreciate the call for empathy, people worry about these groups for a reason. They hurt people. Physical and sexual abuse is common, draining of financial resources to the point of danger is common, and they can be insular to the point to sabotaging all other relationships. High-control groups deserve scrutiny because they prey on the vulnerable. Violence should be avoided because it is counterproductive, but that doesn’t mean that high-control groups should be left to their own devices.
I just wanted to say that as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints this was a fair treatment of my religion, and I greatly appreciated it. Thank you!
I think the thing about small, novel movements that lends themselves to increased risk of abuse is the smallness and newness. Both create a high risk of isolation from others, which makes abuse much easier to enact and makes leaving much harder
I was really impressed by your definition at 06:28 that being called a cult says more about the group doing the calling than it does about the group being targeted. Regarding the definition of what a cult is, one of the more useful definitions I've read about is that a beneficial, accepting, social group differs from a cult in that a cult will punish anyone who tries to leave the cult. Cults also don't allow members to have contact with friends or family outside of the cult.
As someone who's met a lot of religions and gone away from them all - I can't quite articulate how much I appreciated that single line about people who are spiritual but not religious. That kind of very individual, introspective spiritual practice means a lot to me, and I've lost count of the times that folks have given me side-eye and asked if I'm in a cult. It's to the point that I simply choose to smile, nod, and say nothing if religion comes into the conversation. I live in the Deep South: it's FAR SAFER to be silent and let them assume you're just like them. Which makes me very sad, because isn't this supposed to be the land of tolerance?
I think it's a good start, but it falls victim to these same problems. Every criteria on the bite model can be applied to every religious group and arguably to many of our employers and schools. The problem is it's such a subjective idea and the criteria of the bite model are likewise subjective. I think a more useful model would assess the quality of life associated with each of those categories. That might mean though that a group is a cult to some and not to others.
Thank you so much for this video. I've been thinking about what makes something a cult for several years, since someone told me I'm a member of a cult. I really love the idea that when someone labels something as a cult, it tells us more about that person than the organization they are speaking about. That's extremely helpful for me and has helped me acknowledge the journey of the cult caller. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ❤
This was a great episode! My time studying New Religious Movements in college certainly paid off for 10 minutes and 23 seconds. I felt enriched. ENRICHED, I tell you!
The term I see being used now is High Control group which can apply to any group be it a religion or not. MLM's are a high control group as are some political and religious sects.
Hi. Nice photos of Mother Moon. As a practicing Family Federation member I appreciate your balanced and thoughtful take on what can be an emotionally charged topic. And yes! from the outside most religious groups appear strange and it takes a deeper examination to understand their inner meaning.
In this episode, we describe the death of Joseph Smith as a direct result of his teachings. However, there were also ongoing conflicts between Smith, his followers, and the State of Illinois, culminating in Smith being arrested and declaring martial law. Smith's death was as much about politics and power as it was about his religious beliefs.
All of us watching our charismatic leader John Green using a broadcasting system to spread the word to its fervent followers, complete with its own catchy music, jargon, and even symbols (challenge coins). We’re here for it! 😂
I often tongue-in-cheek describe my relationship to the Green brothers and Nerdfighteria as my cult. I'm only half-joking. XD
Even has his own holidays like Pizzamas
All hail the Green Brothers
Except, their intention is good. He wants us educated. Karma is based on intentions. Still…..😂😂😂
Anyone who’s ever been in a marching band with a charismatic band director knows that some of the associations people typically make with cults can describe non-religious subcultural groups, too.
so true
This made me chuckle. We definitely gave off cult vibes lol
I heard the phrase "high control group" to be more useful in signalling harm.
Never heard that term before but it's a good one! Here's hoping it gets used more
it's also more widely applicable since you can be a high control group without being a religion
Definitely!
I've definitely found applying the BITE model & Influence Continuum are really useful tools to think about cults less in a black and white "is a cult" vs "is not a cult" way, and more of thinking about where an organization falls along the lines of "more controlling" vs "less controlling"
Perfect, I was gonna comment about this, but you already did. The first time I heard of it, it sounded more actionable. Of course, "high control" might be a bit of a varying threshold for some situations.
Yes! It's also useful because it doesn't have the connotation of the group always being both harmful and religious, but instead just describes the amount of influence the group has over the members. It's much easier to help people learn to recognize whether or not they're in a high control group if you can frame it in a way where you are just talking about how to assess the influence of a group rather than associating it with a label has has an immediate negative connotation
Another term is high control group. These can be religious or they can be secular. Cults happen within religions, like a homeschool group or a single church. Even 1 singular family can be a high control group/cult. Mlms and businesses can be cults. See the BITE model for clear standards.
It’s important to understand how governments, businesses, and religions can utilize the same control tactics.
100%
As an ex-Mormon, I’m an advocate of the phrasing “high-demand” religion. It’s very similar, and “high-control” definitely encompasses the extreme end - which I believe the structure of my former community has entrenched.
I'm truly impressed with how much nuance this video managed to pack into 10 minutes. I wasn't expecting the angle it took, but I'm surprised how much I agree with it. It's good to see that neither the harm caused by smaller religious movements nor the harm caused by more mainstream ones was ignored. Like John and Hank often say, it's a complex issue, and it deserves to be understood complexly!
Also in the immortal words of Taliesin Jaffe, "All a god is, really, is a cult with a franchise."
If you'd like to read more, this is the New Religious Movement view of cults, based on academic reseach funded by Scientology.
John, I know you’ve been crazy worried about this series but goddamn was this a good episode of Crash Course. This is the kind of nuanced and compassionate thinking that I come here for!!
Right? As a Mormon we get called a cult a lot, but I feel like his portrayal of us along with his description of cults in general was very well done.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I involuntarily cringe every time an outside group gives a synopsis or history because I'm so used to people getting it wrong intentionally or unintentionally. I got through John's description without cringing.
Thank you for mentioning the MOVE bombing! It's an incredibly important part of recent American history--and a reminder the term "cult" is relative.
+
I had never heard about it before. Suffice it to say I was shocked to hear about it.
Yes. I had heard about it, but it is indeed unusually rare to anyone to mention it.
@@rasmusn.e.m1064 I had not heard of it either.
No one was charged. Shocking, but not surprising.
I'll admit, The devil's advocate saying "It's Called X Now" really Got me xD
why?
@@rongike Because nobody calls it X except Elon Musk simps
way to go, Elon. It's been a year, and everyone is still calling it Twitter XD
@@rongikewym “why”? 😂
@@rongike Because calling Twitter "X" is hilarious.
Former Latter Day Saint here. First of all, while I have quite a few personal bones to pick with the church of my youth, I actually really appreciate the way the Mormon movement's origins were handled here. You obviously didn't have time to go into any kind of detail, but with what little time you did have you managed to hammer home that there's a whole lot of history and complexity behind your short overview of the faith. The LDS church, and the various subcultures that orbit it, are in desperate need of this kind of mature, understanding discourse. It's something I want to help change, something that I'm frequently trying to encourage in my own way. It speaks volumes to me about how you're likely approaching this whole series.
Thanks John, and thanks to the rest of the Crash Course team. You're a good in the world.
Fellow ExMormon here I agree!
What do you mean they're in desperate need of a mature, understanding discourse? Not disagreeing! Just curious about what you mean
I find Mormonism is a good litmus test of how religious discourse proceeds. Whatever may be said of it it is incredibly polarizing, so anyone discussing it from a place of respect and neutrality is a rare thing, and therefore indicative of how future discussion is likely to go.
Have you seen KnowingBetter? That channel does a pretty in depth cover of LDS, you might find it interesting.
as a current member, i actually fully agree. lol
Hearing John say "Thanks Thought Bubble" just healed something in me.
"I have a dental procedure I'd prefer to this conversation" is BRUTAL
In French, the word "culte" literally just means "worship." The word that's used instead is "secte", which is a word without a negative connotation in English.
The word "sect" comes from a Latin word meaning "to cut", and I think this is the most clear and concise definition of what makes something a cult: it is a subdivision of some main religion that is different enough from it to be considered its own thing...
Lol, and in Turkish a cult; translated as Tarikât means literally: the path walked while moving towards God(Allah)
Same for the Italian "setta"
I could be wrong, but I think that’s due to it inheriting the word “cult”, and it’s original meaning, from latin.
@@adrianblake8876 The term "cult" isn't always used for subsets of "main" religions though. They aren't all sects.
“The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own.“
-Frank Zappa
It's a Cult unless u're in it. Then it's a culture
Religion is a cult with political power
Frank Zappa was the GOAT.
And the fact that the word of the leader overrules everything else, including what the leader had previously said.
I've always applied the rule that if a group tries to isolate you from other people in your life, then it's a cult. I also don't think the two are mutually exclusive. A religion can be a cult.
Exactly, great comment
That makes a lot of sense. And by extent, I feel like some mainstream religions, when taken to an extreme, become cult-like. If a group of religious extremists want to forbid certain thought practices under punishment of death or even genocide, then it's a cult.
I agree.
I agree, a very insightful addition!
Agreed! Isolation is the key.
Most people mean “high-control/demand group” when they say “cult”.
That can encompass all the most popular religions or cults (whichever you prefer).
I'm sorry I need to sidestep the conversation for second... 250 HOMES?!? - ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!
I haven't quite found the words to accurately describe how I'm feeling after hearing this information.
The amount of things I have learned about my country's history in school growing up, the same shit over and over again, but never this. In the area of history, I feel so cheated in my public education.
Thank you for making this nuanced video. As an atheist who grew up in a secular household, I always found that there's a blurred line between "religion" and "cult". Some people end up in small religious communities that provided them with comfort and a healthy lifestyle, while others end up being part of a major world religion but have a toxic relationship with some other members of that religion. It's reassuring to find out that the distinction is fuzzy and maybe not particularly helpful.
I had absolutely NO IDEA about the MOVE bombing, which just goes to show how education skews in the United States. Thanks for covering that and bringing awareness to it, John.
Finally at a point in my life where I can watch CrashCourse videos not in preparation for an exam but rather for pure enjoyment of learning.
My line for what counts as a cult versus what's a religion is based on how members are instructed in regards to non-members. If your religion instructs you to stop interacting with people who are outside your religion, particularly if that applies to friends and family, then you are in a cult. What makes a cult, for me, is that it tries to isolate it's members such that it becomes the only source of belonging. Seeking control.
@@benjaminmatheny6683 eh, some cults/high control groups don't completely stop you from interacting with non-members, but they will incentivise you to become friends with outsiders for the purposes of "showing them the light" or "showing them how happy we are," basically encouraging out-group "friendships" with the underlying purpose of further recruitment.
I grew up with a mormon mom and a Muslim father. They still practice their respective religions and are still happily married. They raised me to find my own path in life, arming me with the tools of tolerance, understanding, and empathy. I thank them every day for this. These videos remind me of them. And they remind me that world truly can live together peacefully. ❤️ ✌️
I'd like to stress a point:
A cult is characterized by intense control over its members through psychological and social manipulation. A common practice is isolating them from outside influences. This is why leaving a cult is often traumatic, as former members struggle to rebuild their sense of identity and reconnect with the world they were cut off from.
Stil, I agree about the similarities between religions and cults
I'm so proud of the Crash Course team. Moving through this topic with nuance, compassion, inquiry, and all wrapped up together in a smooth flowing narrative. Pure excellence in education. Thank you so much for all your work in creating and sharing these with the world!
Hey crash course team! Member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here. Thank you for your thoughtful discussion of my faith! You guys are such great educators.
I want to mention that the "Church of Jesus Christ" part of the title is kind of important to us because we worship Jesus Christ. Because of our other past names, people accuse us of not worshiping Jesus--that's why we started emphasizing the full name. I know the name is long (I had to say it all the time as a missionary), and I really appreciate y'all for not using Mormon exclusively but explaining where the nickname came from. Thank you again for your nuance and respect :)
This might be my favorite Crash Course series so far. Please keep making them! I really appreciate these insightful, respectful, yet humorous videos. Well done! :)
The devil advocate scene was great
This quote. Thank you for this quote: "Some scholars argue that the 'cult' label reveals less about the group itself and more about who's using the label."
As a former member of the LDS Church but still a Mormon, I completely agree. Any group of people, religious or not, can display harmful or cult-like behavior regardless of its label or age, and using such a loaded term as “cult” only serves to marginalize and denigrate one community as inherently evil while implicitly absolving one’s one from any potential wrongdoing.
Thank you so much for making this series to address such a relevant topic in all of our lives!
Out of curiosity, how are you Mormon but not LDS?
Latter-day Saint here. Thanks for being brief, clear and mature on a small, but important part of church history!
As a previous Mormon, I was elated to see crash course religion. The title of this video made me hope LDS would be mentioned. Amazing work with these videos.
Same!
Man, there are a lot of previous Mormons.
As a current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I had a feeling this course would mention it and also would be accurate. Thank you, Crash Course.
Same here - Tough subject since the word "cult" has different meanings to different people. Seems John tapped in to Steve Hassan's definition a little with the part about cults having a charismatic leader.
As a practicing member, I was really nervous about this episode.
Instead, I was only met with compassion and understanding. Really great video, and he made all of the points I was hoping he would make. It is pointless and harmful to call these organizations cults! Thank goodness that CrashCourse does their research and is actually logical.
John Green in a red jumpsuit was not something I knew I needed to see today... but I needed to see it
The fact that John owns a red Adidas tracksuit makes this video so cool
Has "Me From the Past" grown up into the 'Devil's Advocate" ?!! spoopy and I love it
I did a paper on cults and so much of my research really got hung up on this same issue of actually defining a cult. Not on new religious movements are harmful and some very legitimate religious groups are. It's a very complicated word. I loved this video. Thank you for these religion courses!
"High demand religion" is a term i have heard many former mormon/evangelicals use to describe "cult-like" organizations. If an organization/ institution demands high levels of control, obedience, sacrifice etc (i know 'high' is a subjective word here, but you know what i mean)
Thanks for translating "Santa Muerte" as "Saint Death". It drives me crazy when simple things that are easy to translate aren't to make them seem more exotic
To an extent I agree but bear in mind that this could be considered a proper noun and many proper nouns are not translated. Sometimes doing so is even considered offensive, such as when done to a person's name. It's not a hard and fast rule, though.
Liked for the shade on L. Ron Hubbard's writing.
Current "Mormon" (LDS) here. As always, thank you for an impartial, accurate, and complex take. I was hoping for an honorable mention in this particular video, honestly.
Thank you for the kind discussion, it really meant a lot!
I really appreciate this series. For a while now, I’ve been thinking of looking into religions (particularly Christianity) from an academic perspective but had no idea where to look. So to see Crash Course tackling this in the typical Crash Course style is just really comforting and cozy.
As a member of the Latter Day Saints, thank you for treating it with respect
Fantastic to see this series, I have been watching the Gresham lectures on history of Christianity and related topics and its great to see Crash Course addressing it, the tone and style of this is great for this topic. Thank you for presenting this responsibly.
It was a line about religion that stopped me watching crashcourse history for years the first time watching it, I'm glad I came back and gave your videos another shot and gladder still you are tackling this topic fully, with the focus and weight it requires to avoid lines like that.
The Church I am a member of, Te Haahi Rātana, is considered a cult by many as it is a Church of resistance against colonisation, a Church for cultural preservation and a Prophetic movement in the tradition of the Māori Prophets, intrepreting Christianity through an Indigenous lens.
I prefer the 'cult as a term for a high control group that meets X specific legal definition' version of the term cult over, small group that is wrong as that approaches the 'heresy','religion',etc definitions that are just another way of shutting down discussion and saying 'is wrong to me', not acting as a term useful in really, any context, for advancing discourse or understanding.
This….felt like old-school crash course.
Not quite the optimism and “omg I can’t believe all this is happening” of World History 1, but it really felt like John got back into his groove with this one.
Two best answers I've heard: There is no difference or cults are religions that aren't socially accepted.
Religions are just cults with tax exempt status
Cults are unpopular religions, and religions are popular cults.
Alternatively, religions are a subset of the set of all collections of propositions (not necessarily a consistent formal system) that are generally regarded as being “explanatory of the existence of things”. It’s great to keep in mind that words are used are associated with patterns in sensory information, and definitions that generally approximate and align with the usage of the word are made after the fact.
These explanations make the most sense once we stop tip-toeing around the similarities between what gets called a cult and what gets called a religion, as well as the upcoming what gets called magic. Any time you set up a divinely ordained or inspired hierarchy you're going to have similar pitfalls and dangers.
Religion is a cult with political power
As a Latter-day Saint, thank you for the fair and accurate summation of my faith's history. Great video as always.
Thanks!
“I have a dental procedure I would prefer to this conversation.“ 💀
Thanks for treating discussion of my religion (LDS) with care and understanding. We're not perfect, and things could definitely be worse (and are for many others), but having grown up being mocked and talked down to, to the point where I often get nervous when mentioning my faith to people I want to befriend or even people I just want to see me as an equal. It's nice to be portrayed in such a human way, rather than as a topic of scandal, ridicule, or dread.
Joseph Smith and Mormonism are fascinating modern case studies of how religions form.
ugh love the updated john green thought bubble animation, it’s so good
Thanks CrashCourse for the best explanation of Cult Vs Religion! I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I get asked all the time if it’s a cult, and I wasn’t sure how to answer. Now I’ve got this video for reference!! Yall rock!
The way that I see it, using the word "cult" to describe groups shouldn't be binary. It isn't "yes" or "no," but more of a spectrum of how culty the group is. How culty a group is can be determined by utilizing the BITE model to analyze how much the group controls its members. More control over the members makes the group more culty. Especially so if there are rules or customs that make it difficult for members to leave the group.
On behalf of the pastafarians, R'amen.
As an aspiring classicist and actual Hellenic Pagan i occasionally get so wrapped up in the ancient connotation of "cultus" (which is, fundamentally, just any group performing worship outside the state-sponsored holidays) that i forget its a bad word in modern context lol
"Cults" have specific indicators. Isolation from outsiders, strong "donations" to a central core of leadership, rigid doctrine from the internal leadership, etc.
Most significantly, not enough money to litigate against anyone calling them a cult.
I love how 'Me-from-the-past' was quietly replaced with the Devil's Advocate.
Great job covering the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints! As a follower of the religion myself, I felt like you did a great job covering it in a respectful manner. Thank you for that!
As a former follower of the LDS church, I agree. I find that most coverage tends to be either unjustifiably positive toward it or unfairly negative toward it. This displayed neither of those biases, in my opinion.
Agreed!
Hey! Fellow member here living in Las Vegas! I agree, well done!
In France, recognizing the danger of calling things "cults" ("sectes"), we now have the official term of "dérives sectaires" which means "sectarian drift". This term is used by governmental groups to identify movements that seriously harm their members. They can be "new religions" or groups of mainstream religions, but also non-religious groups that fall in similar problems (like MLM for instance).
Plus, the term "cult" and its cognates or translations can have different meanings across languages, cultures and context.
In German, something has "Kultstatus" (cult status) not because of anything religious or spiritual, but just because its "a classic" or a cultural icon that has endured for a siginificant length of time, e.g. the most famous character in German children's TV, Bernd, das Brot (Bernd, the bread).
I guess a closer word in meaning might be "Sekte" (English: sect)?
English has that too, though it's usually called a "cult classic". Interesting to see how that's a thing in multiple languages!
@@DocVerdant Oh, you're right. I forgot about that phrase. Thanks!
Something similar happens in Spanish (at least chilean Spanish) . The word "culto" can mean the same as "cult" but also "worship" and if you refer to something as "de culto" it may refer to something that is worshipped or very much appreciate by a somewhat limited amout of people. You can also use the word "secta" in the same way as it is used in german. Very interesting.
This series is everything. Especially coming from the most trusted source I can personally imagine when it comes to religious discourse.
So excited to use these in my class in the spring. Thank you!
I have been a fan of just about every crash course I have seen. But be the most meaningful to me. I loved it. I love your intellectual honesty with which you approach everything is a constant reminder of what "good" looks like and where to find it in the world.
I found your discussion of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints particularly poignant since I am a member. You correctly identified how labeling us as a cult during our early years led to decades of horrific treatment and multiple expulsions from the communities we tried to build. All while acknowledging that the power my church wields can be dangerous and has not always been benign in every member's life.
What are your thoughts on the term "high control group"? Is it a helpful one? Harmful?
What's the definition of 'high control'?
"High control group" or "high control religion" is much more effective I've found in spreading awareness about the dangers that such groups can cause. As a 10 year survivor from one of these toxic groups, I've found that using the word "cult" to describe a religion often makes people put their walls up and shut you down almost immediately because there is so much negative association with the word cult.Especially when I was trying to spread awareness to active members. High control is a better way to describe something that may be cultish without making people immediately defensive.
@@oldanslolook up Steven Hassan's BITE model -- it was designed precisely to evaluate that
I feel that cult doesn't even need to have a "spiritual" or "religious" element in it. Even certain political parties get labelled as 'cult' due to the harm they cause.
As a few others have already said, the internet is a very hostile place for practicing Latter-Day Saints, and so I am super appreciative of this measured and compassionate tone in this video.
You made all of the points that I was hoping you'd make! Telling me that I'm in a cult does no one any favors. ❤
Excellent episode 👍 glad to see a neutral treatment of my faith (latter-day saint) I was nervous and excited to see how it would be treated, but you did a wonderful job presenting the story without spinning the narrative. Keep up the good work.
100%!
Thank you for this well thought out and eloquently articulated video. I am a part of a new religious group that gets blanket labeled as a cult. It is frustrating because people accuse us of being secretive when we do so because we are trying to avoid persecution. I agree the word "cult" is misused and generally means "I don't like them, and I don't want other people to like them." Education and open discussion will accomplish much more than unproductive name calling. Thank you again for this well-done video.
The difference between a Cult and a Religion:
*The number of people in attendance.*
I love how when John announces next week's topic he already seems tired of how thorny it's going to be lol. Though he shouldn't, the series has been excellently written so far!
First time following a crash course series as it gets released each week rather than cramming. I think I might actually be processing retaining the information. Wild
Hallo Johann Grün, schön dass Sie wieder da sind :-)
Wie wäre es mit Hannes?
Thank you so much for your respectful and accurate description of the foundation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
The best bit of wisdom on "cults"/ any high-control group is that nobody joins a cult. They join a church, or a meditation group, or an herbalism class, and find that it provides, in some form, something they want. It's important to remember that people who join high-control groups are no less intelligent than you or I--both to remember how such groups work and to be aware of our own potential vulnerability.
So is the Devil’s advocate the new me from high school or open letter?
1:30 As a latter day saint, I'm always fearful of how my church will be approached in this type of setting. I think this was done respectfully, and I appreciate that a lot.
Saaame!
I was thinking the same thing!
Maybe it's because I'm an agnostic atheist but to me I'm the type to basically view "cult" and "religion" as functionally synonymous (with only size and popularity being the differing factors), BUT that doesn't necessarily speak to whether the practitioners of either are necessarily bad. Rather, as what is implied in the video, all religious movements have the capacity to develop the negative attributes that are popularly associated with cults and not religions by the religious.
Thank you for this channel. An actual discussion is absolutely needed!
Distinguishing a cult from a religion as though religion could be without sin is a mistake I agree. However, cult is a useful moniker for predicting behavior. Particularly when you narrow down the definition to a group which exerts a high level of control over its members. I would personally add that the epistomology of the group is also an important distinction. Specifically whether its claims to authority are couched in falsifyable or unfalsifyable claims. This isn't to exclude falsifyable groups that have a high level of control. Rather a high level of control is a necessary adaptation to compensate for the unfalsifyability of claims to authority.
Groups of this kind are as memetic structures pruned by communication based natural selection to adopt common features. It's convergent memetic evolution.
The way I make the distinction is if the movement survives the death or downfall of the founder it is a religion. If it doesn't, it is a cult.
This was a great episode and I’m really looking forward to how you handle the next one!
Personally, I prefer the term high control groups. I think it gets the point across that many people mean when they call something a cult
The term I see used most often for these groups is ‘high-control religion.’ The term focuses on the problematic behaviors-the high control of members thoughts and actions-without the implication that the organization in question is just new and weird. Because it focuses on the behavior, it can apply to many groups that are causing harm, not just religion. It distinguishes between ordinary group membership and those where abuse is rampant.
While I appreciate the call for empathy, people worry about these groups for a reason. They hurt people. Physical and sexual abuse is common, draining of financial resources to the point of danger is common, and they can be insular to the point to sabotaging all other relationships. High-control groups deserve scrutiny because they prey on the vulnerable. Violence should be avoided because it is counterproductive, but that doesn’t mean that high-control groups should be left to their own devices.
I just wanted to say that as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints this was a fair treatment of my religion, and I greatly appreciated it. Thank you!
This actually made me think. Without making me sad.
I think cults try to push you away from interacting with people not from the cult.
I think the thing about small, novel movements that lends themselves to increased risk of abuse is the smallness and newness. Both create a high risk of isolation from others, which makes abuse much easier to enact and makes leaving much harder
"I have a dental procedure that I would prefer to this conversation." Excellent. I plan to use this at least once a day from now on!
I was really impressed by your definition at 06:28 that being called a cult says more about the group doing the calling than it does about the group being targeted.
Regarding the definition of what a cult is, one of the more useful definitions I've read about is that a beneficial, accepting, social group differs from a cult in that a cult will punish anyone who tries to leave the cult. Cults also don't allow members to have contact with friends or family outside of the cult.
As someone who's met a lot of religions and gone away from them all - I can't quite articulate how much I appreciated that single line about people who are spiritual but not religious. That kind of very individual, introspective spiritual practice means a lot to me, and I've lost count of the times that folks have given me side-eye and asked if I'm in a cult. It's to the point that I simply choose to smile, nod, and say nothing if religion comes into the conversation. I live in the Deep South: it's FAR SAFER to be silent and let them assume you're just like them.
Which makes me very sad, because isn't this supposed to be the land of tolerance?
I feel your pain. recently read two obits that described someone as a member of a particular religion, when we knew they were no such thing. (sigh)
Oh dang. This was a great episode, but I'm absolutely looking forward to the next one. The line between religion and magic is absolutely fascinating.
Best Crash Course in a while
I'm surprised the BITE model didn't get brought up here, that's the most common definition of a "cult" I've heard. What do you guys think of it?
I think it's a good start, but it falls victim to these same problems. Every criteria on the bite model can be applied to every religious group and arguably to many of our employers and schools. The problem is it's such a subjective idea and the criteria of the bite model are likewise subjective. I think a more useful model would assess the quality of life associated with each of those categories. That might mean though that a group is a cult to some and not to others.
Same.
I like that the model shows that these problems aren't binary or restricted to religious groups.
Very insightful. Thank you for adding context to the MOVE.
Thank you so much for this video. I've been thinking about what makes something a cult for several years, since someone told me I'm a member of a cult. I really love the idea that when someone labels something as a cult, it tells us more about that person than the organization they are speaking about. That's extremely helpful for me and has helped me acknowledge the journey of the cult caller. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ❤
Thank you for this fascinating discussion.
This was a great episode! My time studying New Religious Movements in college certainly paid off for 10 minutes and 23 seconds. I felt enriched. ENRICHED, I tell you!
The term I see being used now is High Control group which can apply to any group be it a religion or not. MLM's are a high control group as are some political and religious sects.
One problem is that “cult” can mean several different things, including anyone who follows a ritual.
Hi. Nice photos of Mother Moon. As a practicing Family Federation member I appreciate your balanced and thoughtful take on what can be an emotionally charged topic. And yes! from the outside most religious groups appear strange and it takes a deeper examination to understand their inner meaning.