The Hee Il Cho Incident | Rorion Gracie
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- When I arrived in LA, I was looking for a place to teach jiu-jitsu. I entered a Tae Kwon Do school and ended up fighting Master Hee Ill Cho.
#RorionGracie #GracieBrothers #GracieJiuJitsu
That is not how the incident went down at all! I started training with GM Cho in 1977. i witnessed exactly what happened as i was there that day taking class when Mr Gracie came in. He walked in the school without asking permission, went straight to the locker room and put on his uniform, total disrespect!! What Mr Gracie does not know (and leaves out of his version of the story) is that GM Cho was in the middle of a delicate legal situation at the time and could not fight him. A couple months before a Kung Fu practitioner came in the school during class and challenged GM Cho. GM politely asked him to leave but the man attacked anyway, GM was forced to defend himself breaking the mans ribs, Jaw and knocking out multiple teeth landing him in the hospital for an extended stay. Afterwards GM was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, in addition the man sued GM civilly claiming he could never work again. The day Mr Gracie came in the school both cases were still pending, GM Cho was under strict advice from his attorney that if another incident occurred while these cases were open GM would immediately go to jail!! It's sad that Mr Gracie feels he needs to promote himself by disrespecting a great Grandmaster. GM Cho has dedicated his entire life to the martial arts and has touched thousands of people around the world with his wisdom and teachings!
Yes i read about GM Cho's lawsuit. On this Rorion story, i wouldnt bother at all. True masters will not run down each other's image. Rorion may hav fight skills but no Budo in him...
@Whammer79 Interesting you sound so sure of what happened when your characterization of the event clearly shows you weren't there, I was. As i explained in my original post GM did not and could not accept the challenge due to the pending cases, it wasn't just a civil lawsuit but actual criminal charges GM was facing that would have landed him in jail. He asked Mr Gracie to leave but he didn't and grabbed GM, GM showed incredible restraint, had the opportunity but didn't hit Mr Gracie for the reasons shared in my original post.
@Whammer79 - Okay Weenie79!
Assault with a deadly weapon? lol
I do believe you..... now.
It saddens me so much that Rorion would do something so disrespectful then many years later brag about it and that’s if it really happened the way he said. The Gracies are notorious about there story telling and stretching the truth.
He did that to Cho just like they do it to everyone else like you see in the UFC. They started the the UFC by taking on everyone. The clinch happens and you are going down buddy! The world heavyweight boxing champion James Tony went down in just 14 sec in teh UFC against Randy Couture..These guys really fight anything goes and Cho doesn't. Who did he ever beat for real and to the finish? nobody!
Well, sounds like the other guy challenged him after he asked to rent. He lost
Gracie's lying for sure! Seriously, who goes into another instructors dojo when pretty much any space can be used for learning BJJ? We all know this.
Gracie obviously knew Cho was a famous martial artist and wanted to go in there and make him look bad in front of his students.
I love both Taekwondo and BJJ having trained in both, but I now have a new disrespect for Gracie.
@@Gtzilla01 "Gracie's lying for sure! Seriously, who goes into another instructors dojo when pretty much any space can be used for learning BJJ? "
The whole idea is they wanted to fight everyone to prove their art.. They were not lying about that. They kicked everyone a.s.s back then easily. People thought it was a lie until they got their butt kicked. Lot of butt kicking and eventually people belived.
@@Gtzilla01 You clearly don't understand what things were like back in the 80s.
So rorion walks around everywhere with a duffel bag with his kimono in it?
he was going to a Martial Arts school. He knew what he was doing. I suspect he purposely trolled the guy.
Obviously he was going to that school with a purpose and had a reason to bring his kimono LOL smh
Sir, under no circumstances is it honorable, respectful or "right" to enter another man's academy/dojo/kwoon and end up inciting or inviting a challenge. You disrespected your budo brother's house, sir. That type of behavior is contrary to every budo code of conduct, sir. I am very disappointed, even heartbroken to know that you intentionally went from school-to-school behaving in this manner to promote your art.
Sounds like someone afraid of proving their skills.
Yeah I agree, it seems kind of amateur. I would think it would be more respectful to ask for a time or appointment to maybe give a private demonstration or something. Like an elevator pitch.
Didn't they challenge each other back in the old days ? But I can understand why you wouldn't agree with that. I don't go around challenging other martial artist myself because for me it's strictly about training and hoping I never have to use it to defend myself on the street.
@@crotchy7667 It doesn't seem like Master Cho allowed him to suggest that. He pretty much shut him down and claimed he couldn't be taken down. What is Gracie supposed to do? Back down? Why?
@@MaharlikaAWA we're talking about what is respectful, not simply how Gracie should get his way.
I think it is possible that people hide behind being "respectful". Regardless, "being respectful" is what I was addressing.
My first martial art was Tae Kwon do , all the instructors were under Master Hee Il Cho and I had seminar with the Master myself. They were such respectful, kind, friendly, positive people. Hee Il Cho himself was so inspiring, his dynamic kicks and punches were so controlled, fast and powerful. I learned so much and saw so much skill in that tradition. I remember Cho saying "Don't just try to be a champion of other people, be a champion of yourself.." ie strive to be a better practitioner every year don't just try to beat others. This great master did so much for martial arts in the world, including helping many beginners and children involved. It's one thing to walk into another man's dojo and try to humiliate the instructor in front of his students - I know that was a thing back in the day in Rio - and yes the lesson about grappling is out there to be learned including by Master Cho. It's quite another thing to be a respectful martial artist who inspires people with your humility and leads by being good at what you do which is not necessarily MMA. The Gracies have done so much for martial arts too but I don't think Rickson would have been pleased with this particular show of arrogance and disrespect by Rorion. The irony is Rorion could have learned so much from Master Hee Il Cho too, but it's clear he learned absolutely nothing.
Yeah he was good in his prime took a good picture. But taekwondo goes downhill fast skill level wise. Most of all love the philosophy in arts
@@rickd1201 not sure where that comment is coming from, your own experience of going downhill fast? I've practised TKD, boxing, muay thai, BJJ, judo, MMA and none of them go downhill fast skill level wise. It depends how much effort you put in with your own training and development. Plenty of MMA fighters have incorporated their TKD into their style even up to the top levels. Anyway I agree the philosophy is the most satisfying part of martial arts, it's the mind that gets you where you want to go.
Well let's see when you hit 50 and then 60 if you're still kicking like you were in taekwondo when you were in your twenties or you don't have no injuries from or back problems or so on that's what I meant. You'll most likely stay with your boxing skills and that's of the new wave of stuff you probably don't know self-defense of that sort in the street fighting expect of like what it really is compared to the sport. Is a completely different thing but they're very very high skill level no doubt today but they haven't seen the repercussions from injury from those fighters being in their 50s yet
@@rickd1201 I'm 57. And yes I agree with you the skills that require a lot of flexibility I don't use because I'd tear my muscles. I can still do those things if I warm up. And even in my 20s I injured my back trying to get extremely flexible so if that's what you mean definitely I agree with you. Although Master Cho maintained his flexibility and some power well into his 70s but he is exceptional.
@@rickd1201 Include a hip replacement or two in that.
There goes my respect for this Gracie. Gracies has been often disgraceful talking trash like this behind back meanwhile when there are circumstances when they’ve lost they always bicker a whole lot of excuses about it. Striking and grappling is apples and oranges. Not much of a martial artist here being disrespectful like this.
"like this behind back "
You are a liar. It’s important to note that Rorion Gracie’s discussions about his fights and competitors have been made publicly, such as through videos or interviews, rather than behind their backs. This transparency counters your nonsense claim of disrespectful back-talk.
While you falsely claim that the Gracies make excuses when facing losses, it’s essential to provide specific instances to substantiate such claims. You can't cause you sare nothing more than a cry baby.The Gracie family, like any prominent figures in a competitive sport, may discuss factors that affected their performance, but this isn’t unique to them or indicative of poor sportsmanship. Without concrete examples, this criticism is unfounded. Plain easy to understand English for ya? You full of BS.
There's an unwritten law amongst top masters not to disclose such private duels, as in ethics & mutual respect. This itself says evrything about Rorion. How about disclosing the fact that a Japanese Judoka ended the "gracie dominance" that occured officially??
@Whammer79 there's another version of this story by a witness. Anyway..suppose it was really how Rorion claimed...what's your point?? BJJ is better?? BJJ is best?? Tkd is useless???
there is no such law...not to mention this was in a school full of people.
All u Rorion fans. His claims hav no evidence. Any footage?? And even if true, look around & notice Muay Thai, Taekwondo, Karate, Boxing, Kung Fu...is well loved & practiced all over the world, today!!! It's not all about who's the strongest, meanest, baddest. And certainly people do not like joining someone who bad mouth others, very unprofessional.
@@Veloce2000 there are videos of Gracies fighting challenge matches...it was something they were known to do.
@@cuzz63 so what?? Majority of people around the world still prefer to practice other styles & definitely very small portion who like your Gracie family. Also do not just focus on their victories, towards the end of UFC, japanese judoka beat Gracie.
Master Cho outta control? I trained under Cho for 10yrs. Doesn't sound like his character. Without Cho and his traditional teachings, i would be in prison. He saved my life thru The Martial Way.
Master Cho was one of the best instructors in the states. He knew Chuck Norris. This guy is FOS.
Sounds like you were just there for an ego trip.
Seems to me that you walked into his school, he turned down your offer to use the space, and you wanted to show him up in front of his students to embarrass him and maybe poach his pupils. He held back his kick to show he could control the move. He could have hit you with it, but decided not to. It's unfortunate that the Gracie family frequently stormed schools, dropped challenges and used this stuff as propaganda. You could have instead asked him for a demonstration of his style and you could have demonstrated yours. I probably would have acted the same way if someone came into my school the way you did. It's disgusting.
Listen you might not like them but the Gracies exposed the fallacy of street effectiveness that 90% of Martial arts schools and styles were promoting during the 70's, 80's and even to this day. Fights go to the ground most of the time. These so called "Masters" didn't know anything about ground fighting. Even BJJ showed wrestling the importance of having submissions in their game.
@@vedder10 I have no problem with their system. I just have a huge problem with going into anybody's studio or business and trying to show them up or poach their students. The often repeated statistic about most fights going to the ground in taken completely out of context. I'll agree that in most fights, somebody ends up on the ground. But most fights do not involve people grappling on concrete in the streets. Police statistics don't support that. If anything, they're consistently shown the necessity of staying on your feet. I enjoy grappling. But that needs to be the last resort when the situation goes that direction. The first resort when you can't walk away or even run needs to be to stay on your feet. And if you're on the ground, the goal needs to be to get up as fast as possible. Rickson did write an article in black belt magazine in the 1990s, which I still have in my drawer, where he talked about the importance of striking and why the ground isn't a place to get in the habit of taking your opponent to as a go-to move. He said he learned that the hard way in a street fight where the guy's buddy jumped in and stomped on his head.
@@vedder10 Someone else already responded to this but the whole ground thing logically concerns assaults or fights between wholly untrained people, which is what most people are. You could just as well say that most guitar sessions end up as noise. If you throw a guitar in a person's hands who has never studied music what do you think is going to happen? But self-defense is not like a guitar...it's like a band and in a band you need a singer, drummer, bassist, guitarist and so forth. Having one of those is enough to create some real music and much better than having nothing at all. In martial arts this corresponds to the condition of having serious skill in one range of fighting. If you have solid TKD experience, you will be very dangerous at long range for example. Never in my life have I seen security footage of a mediocre boxer being dragged to the ground but I have seen videos of TKD kicks ending fights and I have seen enough videos of boxers knocking out multiple men on the street. If the worst pro-BJJ arguments were to be believed, those security camera videos were fake because in a real fight everyone would just drag the other person to the ground and then they would forget how their legs and arms work unless they do BJJ. So basically having solid experience in any range of fighting is a big advantage; this is why the Gracies did not expose anything in terms of self-defense IMO. Competition is favorable to grappling in that you cannot bite, do groin grabs, headbutts, attack the throat and eyes etc. which is always taught in women's self-defense. Even an untrained person can luck out and take out a black belt with a bite if he gets too close but you cannot realistically hurt a boxer or kicker from a distance because strikes happen in a flash and his body is in motion and not locked against yours; he cannot be reached without serious skill. So competition and MMA cannot be compared directly; the striking stuff that works in competition also works on the street but offensive grappling kind of serves your vital spots on a platter and you're taking a big risk for the same reward that you could get with simply throwing a punch and only grappling defensively.
Totally agree with you
Yeah totally agree with Glasshost..
Between striking & grappling there is no clear winner. Ideally is to be adept at both. But walkin into people's dojo to challenge or prove oneself is unethical, rude & childish. There are moral conduct in traditional m.arts to be observed as in "mind, body & spirit".
I don't know if the story is true...but back in the day, I saw Grandmaster Cho in action...and this story is a bit hard to believe. I'm telling you...one of Grandmaster Cho's spinning back kicks would have done ANYONE in.
That was absolute arrogance on your part mr. Gracie! You humiliated someone unnecessarily in front of their students when you could have contested Grandmaster Cho one-on-one privately but instead you had to be Big jiu-jitsu man and embarrass him and hurt his business! Shame on you
Great Story. I remember his Dojo in Santa Monica. It was Chuck Norris's Studio before Mr. Cho took it over. That was in 1975 when I took my students to watch Mr. Cho Teach. Also that was the same year I heard about Jiu Jitsu from an Aikido black belt that was coming to my sparring classes telling me how good Gracie Jiu Jitsu was. 👍👏
I hope you are all okay. With all do respect instructor, as my fellow martial artists have pointed out bellow ( also you yourself have made clear) the grand master made the point by holding back his kick. I’m confident that if that kick would have landed, this story would not have come out. Yess, it is important to we’ll round yourself with various techniques and styles. Yess it is important to utilize all martial arts knowledge, but it is more important to respect you’re fellow martial artists just as master Cho did. Sorry if I offended and thank you all for you’re contributions.
He did say he didn't move when Cho threw the kick
I think, master cho didn‘t hold back his kick, but he missed master gracie.
So it seems, master cho had no chance with his tkd against bjj.
That's why my teacher made me humble and said that you need to learn how to ground fight and mix's it up that's why I know so much now because I'm very humble martial artist you have to listen 👂 to our eledeono matter the system
No he didn't, he was measuring distance like a jab.
@@waldi1339 he was measuring distance and filling the void as all strikers do, but BJJ also measures distance.
So he showed you that he could have easily hit you with a power move, a spinning back kick, pulled it expertly then you stepped in and took him down. Bro your description of his arrogant behavior could have been applied to the way you approached that conversation. Also that was in the 80s or so, why did you wait FORTY years to say this. You waited til he was 81 years old and is no position to challenge anyone to say this now? Damn dude WTF?
i dont approve of school invasions like rorion did in the day,it was just a marketing ploy.However,cho had zero understanding of how to negate a grappler at that time so no amount of striking matters in that case,weve seen this 100s of times in mma,especially the early days. Master chos student philip ameris has now been teaching grappling for 25 yrs and master cho has a bjj school in his dojang,they all realise the importance of it for real combat.
@@scarred10 People can still bite, claw, squeeze and rip on the ground but it takes a very angry or committed person to attack the vital spots that the grappler is serving you on a platter. What if the other guy bit him with all his might and embarrassed him? Would he admit to something or would his family hire a hitman to take out the guy who embarrassed him? Friendly sparring is not combat and this whole real combat is mostly about competition and trying to reach top dog status in a highly specific male subculture; it's not about self-defense and much less about combat; these guys are not going to wars and getting blown up nor are they fighting people with spears in a jungle; that's real combat and it's mostly about weapons since the dawn of time so how many fencing, shooting and kendo classes are we taking again? How come we talk about combat and yet none of us actually serve? Is it because we want to get a pat on the back from our own subculture and impress women with symbols and stories while staying 100% safe like a movie actor? How many singers believe that they need to be guitar geniuses to be proper musicians? How many drummers are going to singing competitions to expose singers as frauds for not playing drums? I cannot think of any because in that culture people seem to take pride in what they can do instead of what they cannot do in one lifetime and they understand that being good in one musical skill takes constant maintenance and there's always room for improvement in that specific skill. I understand that for many men wanting to become the top dog of their subculture is very tempting; the problem comes when they confuse it with self-defense goals for average people who have other things to do.
@@miesvaillanykyisyytta3252 of course you can bite but the grappler can do it back you from a much stronger position.Also,biting and gouging cannot be practised,they would be supplementary to solid fundamental grappling and striking
@@scarred10 I think they can be practiced to some extent. They have been a staple of krav maga and women's self-defense for ages. When a man gets on top of a woman, he is almost invariably in a stronger position but the woman can still escape without knowing a lick of BJJ and this happens every single day when people tap into their primal responses and attack the most sensitive areas of the body immediately without holding back; a lot of grappling success in brawls seems to be based on the fact that people instinctively start fighting off the arms instead of the eyes for example and they lose precious time and energy by fighting a game by the rules of their opponent where they cannot win; this also happens between untrained people; if someone grabs my throat standing up rape choke style my first instinct is to to try to pull the arms away which does not work very well if the other person is stronger whereas I could have elbowed, kneed, headbutted or twisted fingers and at least caused some distraction and pain to the opponent; luckily it does not take much training, if any training to unlearn that response. Jeff Speakman, the movie star and karate master has a lot of respect for BJJ and he incorporated BJJ into his system after years of rolling but he said he only wanted to borrow techniques that do not leave the technician in a vulnerable position. I have been put in a triangle choke in a judo class and I could have easily attacked the groin for several seconds and my opponent most likely would have released his hold immediately. So I see the triangle choke or more accurately some variations of the triangle choke as high risk maneuvers that could end up costing you a lot if your execution is not perfect. The worst thing that can happen while throwing a punch is you'll hurt your hand a bit. You can still throw a knock-put punch with your pain free hand.
@@miesvaillanykyisyytta3252 you must be be joking,speakman and his style are pure useless,have you seen their sparring,there is nothing from kenpo even used in it.There is absolutey zero chance of a groin attack working on a triangle choke,a non grappler wont even know its a choke until the few seconds before theyre asleep.Bear in mind all any untrained attacker does in guard is punch the head and drive forward off their feet,both of which make groin attacks inaccessible.
I am a Taekwondo guy and certified instructor. I love Taekwondo, but I am also a blue belt in BJJ and even passed the Gracie JJ Combatives program online. Master Cho is a well respected martial artist and a real fighter from the old world just after the Korean War. He has many street fights growing up as well as challenge matches. This was just another challenge match and he accepted.
He did not want to admit he lost and unfortunately missed out on gaining serious ground fighting skills while being a Taekwondo master. It is sad he did not humble himself and allow Rorio Gracie to pay a mat rental fee. He not only would make extra money for his business, but also most likely be allowed to train for free after his is done teaching Taekwondo.
I still respect Grandmaster Cho regardless and him losing a challenge like this does not take any respect away from him. It's just weird how he dealt with it and his students acting crazy like that.
I can’t believe anything out of these peoples mouth anymore
I have been active in Martial Arts since the early 80's and still active, I am so sorry to say that one thing I have learned is that no one lies more that Masters & Grand Masters about their "exploits" - I have seen this across all Martial Arts, not just Jujitsu - pretty much all of them. Far too many fabricate stories or "adjust" them over time to become more & more fantastic. As the years go on, the stories magically just keep getting better and better. It's all lies. After a while it becomes sad to see the truth of our "heroes". I respect honest hard working White Belts more than these so called Masters and Grand Masters.
If you are a beginner, here is some advice. Beware of Masters. Trust yourself, work hard, never brag & stay humble no matter how many years you train or how good you get. If you do have legitimate stories, don't share them. There's no reason. If you want to create folklore then let it happen 'naturally'. If it's worthwhile it will happen through others. When you tell it yourself It just makes you look small - even in front of a White Belt. That will make you a true Black Belt one day.
Boxers all talk about the fight they have had so why can't Rorion?
That said, I knew Master Cho back then...for years. I never once heard him brag about anything. He was always extremely humble. It was a quality encouraged in his Dojo.
A lot of good comments, and back then nobody could have known what BJJ would become and how integral it would be in the MMA craze that's taken over the world! I had the great opportunity to train with GMC Hee Il Cho for years, he moved his world headquarters to Albuquerque, NM in 1998/1998 and I trained with him the entire time that he was here, as well as visiting/training/testing with him after he'd moved on to Honolulu, HI. And I think that this incident made an impression on him, as shortly after he formed the Action Int'l Martial Arts Association, which is still a thing today. The idea was that one could draw from all martial arts styles in order to become that fully rounded martial artist, and of course grappling was incorporated into his teachings...So, whether or not he'd say so, I would imagine that this might have been part of his thinking when forming AIMAA! And by the way, Grandmaster Cho is now 81 and still opens his school and teaches daily - say what you will, but the man is, has been, and always be dedicated to furthering the martial arts! And I certainly have nothing but respect for the Gracies, nor do I consider Rorion "cocky" or arrogant, he just believes (and rightly so) in his style and has certainly proven that!
Well said.
In his 1988 book "The Complete Black Belt Hyung WTF" he states that he thought he was the best and could not be defeated but when he moved to the USA he actually lost and learned a lot. He was implying Karate tournaments and mentioned Shotokan/Japanese styles using a punch to win because it was point Karate. He also entered full contact tournaments when he first arrived and discovered the value of other arts. I am certain in his book he is also basing his shock of losing on this incident as well and he learned from it.
Does anyone know how many challenge matches he had? Were there any in other states he was teaching in like the East Coast, New Mexico or Hawaii?
When the lies were told about the helio Vs kimura match. Why would u believe a word this lot say!
True,,,think about it ,,,,,you dont think mr hee ill cho in his prime isn't quick enough to throw a kick or a punch at your head no matter what angle your coming at ,,,,,,mr hee ill cho in him prime was a lightening scorpion with his kicks and his punch's , those things would whip and break you !
What lies were told about Helio vs Kimura?
And then Bruce Lee walked in and attacked me and i took him down to
It's wrong from Rorion Gracie period
This speaks volumes to just how disgraceful the Gracie’s are.
I dont believe nothing of what he is saying.I ve trained with He Ill Cho and his power was overwhelming.His kick would destroy him
I’m well aware of the limitations of TKD but even based on your version of the story, it seems you acted in a very classless fashion. You’re not doing yourself any favors with this story, which I’m sure has a whole other side to it.
Every master from Taekwondo to Jiu Jitsu or Karate deserve respect that's all
Respect is a two way street, but if you challenge Rorion like Cho did then br prepared to hit the floor hard. He said nobody could take him down and asked Rorion if he wanted to try so he did..
@@antimediaman9354 sounds like you'll believe anything anyone says. Joyce Gracie put their name on the map. He's the only Gracie to accomplish anything in martial arts.
@@robf1621 "sounds like you'll believe anything anyone says"
and it sounds like you'll try to convince me of anything. Where is your evidense to prove you aren't trying to do just that?
@@robf1621 You are wrong because evidense shows and the record shows that there are many other notable members of the Gracie family who have accomplished a lot in the world of martial arts besides Royce Gracie. Here are a few examples:
Rickson Gracie: Considered by many to be one of the greatest Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners of all time, Rickson has won numerous championships in both BJJ and submission wrestling. He is also known for his undefeated record in MMA
no losses.
Renzo Gracie: A black belt in BJJ and accomplished MMA fighter, Renzo has competed in many high-profile fights and has trained many other successful fighters.
Royler Gracie: The son of Helio Gracie and a multiple-time world champion in BJJ, Royler is known for his technical prowess and his ability to compete at a high level well into his 40s.
Kron Gracie: The son of Rickson Gracie, Kron is a highly skilled BJJ practitioner and MMA fighter who has competed in the UFC and other major promotions.
Carlos Gracie Jr.: The son of Carlos Gracie Sr., Carlos Jr. is the current head of the Gracie Barra BJJ association and has trained many successful fighters.
These are just a few examples of the many talented and accomplished members of the Gracie family. The Gracie family has had a significant impact on the world of martial arts, and their contributions to BJJ and MMA will be felt for many years to come.
Master Hee II Cho was the Team Korea coach on Best of the Best I
While I do agree that a student needs more than TKD to be a well-rounded fighter, BJJ Kali, boxing, etc., what a cocky bastard.
I have never seen Cho be cocky but some people are cocky when there young but grow out of it like Bruce Lee challenged teachers but grew out of it just like Bruce was challenged alot because so many people wanted to take his rep away and see if they could beat him and got there ass beat.Bruce got into street fights every since he was little but Bruce had a bad temper for one.
Didn't the martial artist challenge each other in the old days ? I guess they were all cocky too.
I was about 13 years old in Providence Rhode Island. About1970. I heard screaming and crunching sounds coming fro the 2nd floor where there was a martial arts studio. My friend and I went up the stairs and walked in. Master Cho motioned us to sit on the floor. He was working out with a heavy bag. Spinning back and front kicks sending the bag parralel with the floor. He then backed up and ran towards the heavy bag and kicked it with such force it caved in half and rose up towards the ceiling. We were in shock and have seen many videos of Bruce Lee and his stories of having destroyed heavy bacs and sent the to the ceiling. I saw it first hand with Master Cho. He nodded and we applauded the beast demonstration. No one around except the individual helping him and us. He bowed and winked. Went back several other times and he was amazing.
Why didn't you train under him?
I think this is why everyone cheers when the Gracies lose. This Rorion guy is insecure and and seems to crave attention. I hope Ririon understands that there are other forms of Martial Arts and not everyone will train with the Gracies.
I got news for these guys, the LAST place I'm going to allow myself to go is the ground. One of my taekwondo instructors said that you're better off running like hell than going to the ground in a REAL situation because there's a very good chance that the other guy has friends and you've just placed your head on the kicking tee. I agree. I think this form of martial art is enormously flawed. In a class room it's fine. In a tournament one on one, it's cool. But that's not what real life is at all! I personally would rather not get my head punted by some drunk cowboy wearing boots. But hell, that's just me.
How disrespectful this guy walks into someone elses "house" and picks a fight. Whether or not he is telling the truth or not, or even a half truth. Even if he was better than Cho in that regard, his character is that of a bully. No different than a weight lifter who goes to the beach and kicks sand in someones face.
I am not sure if anyone else has noticed this but on the wall behind Rorion is a picture of the front cover of Black Belt Magazine (October 1978 edition), and who is on the cover? None other than Hee Il Cho himself. I don't this implies Rorion actually liked GM Cho as this edition also had an article featuring "Brazil's Martial Art". Still, if he hated the man that much, why have a picture of him on your wall.
Why Master Rorion should have hated Master Cho?
@@waldi1339 Good question and I can't really answer it as I wasn't there (when the altercation took place) - I'm just speculating. We may never know exactly what went down but one this is certain - it added to the mystique of both men. Like they say - "There's no such thing as bad publicity,” or to put it another way, "There's only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about". 😉
@@optimusmaximus9646
O think master rorion didn‘t hate master cho.
He just challenged him an master cho lost.
@@waldi1339 Your'e probably right. Like I said, it's all speculation. We can never know what someone else thinks, can we. All we can go on is their deeds.
@@optimusmaximus9646
👍🏻
It’s hard to believe that grandmaster Cho was goi g crazy when he was such a controlled person
He was struggling to get out of the mount position LOL
this guy, gracy, is out of his mind
Totally out of order. You entered his Dojang and asked him about the possibility of using his established school to teach. He is not interested so you challenged him. You are all about ego.
Sparring/challenge matches, I'd say, go like this - there's a matter of holding back, of " not going for the throat " in any civil situation. You don't take out a knee just to prove a point. On the street it's different. If someone's trying to prove their system's better that's one thing, if it's a matter of survival then it's different. When sparring with your instructor you don't hit with a sidekick often b/c you don't want to embarrass the instructor, etc. If the Gracie guy said he was going after Cho's, or anyone else's in these challenge matches, family, then the outcome would probably be different.
This is a total lie. I was at that dojo most days at the time. This story is not how it happened. Had M Cho actually fought him, Rorion would have been injured. Cho did not fight this man. Cho has never been "arrogant" in his life. He has always been a deeply respectful man. Rorion embarrasses himself by trying to spread a total lie against an actual master in order to promote his school? Disgraceful. Cho would never have let anyone who wasn't a part of the Dojo in to interrupt his class, would never have fought anyone random off of the street in front of his paying class. This man is a liar. He NEVER fought Master Cho. It didn't happen. Kind of ironic that there is a framed cover of Master Cho on Black Belt magazine on the wall behind this person. This is nothing more than a fabricated, disgusting, shameful attempt at self promotion based on a lie.
The Gracies are great story tellers. Where are they now? Answer hiding under a rock! You don't need to waste 8 years of your life learning Jiu-Jitsu but a a few moths neutralizing it. :)) The story that Jiu-Jitsu would work for the skinny guy was a nice story.
All the Gracies are not competing in the UFC, why because they've lost many times. They were humiliated by Sakuraba in Japan too.
They always look for an excuse.
And my friends they Gracies surrendered to Sakuraba, they threw the towel. By the way, the first UFC followed special rules imposed by Rorion that favor Royce. Royce used illegal drugs and he was defetead many times. The myth was over. Jiu-Jitsu can NOT win in the UFC, look at the statisctics.
The Gracies do NOT compete in Vale Tudo nor in the UFC because Jiu-Jitsu alone is not enough. They got their ass kicked.
Ah hello, jiu-jitsu DID win in the UFC!
@@ymatT601 Yes, in the 1st couple UFC events, particularly. But by the time Royce fought Ken Shamrock a 2nd time in, what, the 2nd or 3rd UFC event, the myth of BJJ being unbeatable was disproven, Royce could no longer dominate someone like Ken, Royce looked more beat up than his opponent at the end of that match (was it a draw? been forever since I watched that one ...). Flash forward a few years to Royce fighting, was it Matt Hughes, when Royce got his ass kicked by a wrestler, & we knew for sure BJJ wasn't the only effective fighting style. For the Gracies to still act like they're top dogs nowadays is a bit delusional.
Even if the Gracies beat evryone it would not convince me BJJ is best. It's not the art that is superior but the individual.
Just like Bruce Lee's JKD....i dont see any JKD stylist winning many bouts.
@@Veloce2000 Rorion never said Gracie jiu jitsu was superior
Literally everytime Royce fought in the ufc he would say in the promo. “ my name is Royce Gracie I’m from Rio de Janeiro Brazil I’m here to show my fighting style is the best”
And then commentators go on and on about Gracie jj. Even the first one where you wouldn’t think Gracie jj would be talked about so much before fights even happened
I smell strong bullshit. knowing Cho personally, he would never have acted like he didn't know going to the ground was inevitable, especially in the street. Cho often said that trained fighters know how to block/spoil kicks/punches, and that ground technique was critical in a one to one situation. Cho was was well aware of both hapkido/Kuk Sool Kwan, before he even departed Korea, and was already well versed in a lot of ground technique. Later he was the first TKD master to bring ground techniques to the TKD seminar scene formally, back in 1985, and was a strong advocate of Hapkido ground techniques, same moves as BJJ. The problem with the Gracie clan is, they lack respect, there is no philosophy behind them, its all about money/ego/winning, this was very far from Cho's mentality, who absorbed/taught that every system had something to offer in marital arts. I never once heard Cho knock another system in Pico or anywhere else he taught. When you try to make out your better than someone with a strong international reputation, in a different system, it clearly says your weak in your own confidence, that you can bring something to the table/be successful off your own back/reputation.
He was arrogant in his school? No, it was his school. Perhaps you should have made an appointment and had a conversation like a normal person.
Looks like Gracie was looking for trouble. Trying to show off and ridicule a teacher in front of his students.
Be humble, one of many lessons taught by martial arts...
I train both Taekwondo and Gracie Jiujitsu, I guess that makes me a bad person. This doesn't make me think less of Hee Il Cho, it sounds like it was just an unfortunate situation. Hee Il Cho was also pushing 40 at the time, and Taekwondo gets harder as you age. I love and respect all martial arts, it's just sad that some individuals would rather argue online over stupid things then actually train.
Not only that but if this was supposedly true, Hee ll Cho was in the middle of teaching and I’m sure he was probably out of breath a bit from moments when he had to do demonstrations soo that already kind of gave him a disadvantage and also taekwondo doesn’t focus much on grappling it focuses more on kicking .
It wouldn't have mattered if he was younger. Rorion would have still taken him down.
Why does (for some people) martial arts all have to be about being the most effective or most realistic in a fighting situation? If there was only one art that could guarantee you success in a fight, everyone would be doing it…. There are many reasons why we train in martial arts…not just for fighting
I agree with the majority that this isn't appropriate talk.Everything I have seen of GM Cho even in his older years leaves me in awe at his all around talent and I've trained for many years and seen a lot of overgraded ego maniacs. I've see Gracie and he's a legend in his own head and wouldn't of been able to get within 6feet of Cho without getting knocked out. (That part Is the only thing that has come out of Gracie's mouth that I believe is true) 👍
Rorion Gracie should not be doing that that's Hee il Cho Taekwondo school since he say know just gonna have to respect that period that insisting him about Gracie Jiu Jitsu
I was going to Master Hee il Cho at that time this never happened and honestly never heard of it... why would he allow him to change in his dojo he doesn't know the guy!? .. There was a Gracie challenge with Gracie rules in place in the contract but it was not accepted because of the rules favouring the grappler... that's what I remember.
The user neil hurwitz here in den comments confirmed Master Gracies story as an eye-witness and student of Master Cho at that time.
@@waldi1339 Neil confirmed that there was no fight and gave the reasons. I was there at this dojo at that time, santamonicaboy was also there. We are all telling you that this fight didn't happen.
@@minkiemink
Neil didn’t confirm, that there was no fight, if you read his post exactly.
@@waldi1339 Neil and I are friends IRL. I knew Master Cho back then. There was no fight. Master Cho was in a lawsuit with some other idiot who tried to push the same thing and lost. He did not fight Rorion.
@@minkiemink
Ok:
Neil wrote,he witnessed, what happened as he was there that day and that it happened not as Master gracie tells.
But he didn‘t write, what happened instead.
What happened instead from his point of view?
Could you ask neil to write here?
There is no way he could beat Master Cho. Then or now
But he did.
Funny how you disabled the comments on (other one of your videos) ae buddy
How disrespectful is this..to go to someone business and from what I see starting problems..
Then you have little clue about the public bragging Koreans did back in the day with their 8th degree black belts and all that crap. They greatly influenced and kick-started the rise of mass market McDojo martial arts back in the day.
@@turntablesrockmyworld9315 ok so that's their business..if they wanna water down TKD
All Ways Be Ready For A Fight, You Should Know Straight Away If You Need To Pull Any Punches 🙏
Now MMA fights are mostly like Kickboxing matches with fewer takedown attempts and submission attempts. But everybody's kids get bullyproofed. Notice he didn't go in to rent Mats at a Wrestling Club and challenge them.
A jumping High Kick specialist writing books. Lol
GM Choi, would kill Gracie in an all out fight!! From Kevin Thomas, a 4 Dan in young do kwan, under GM Byong YU!
Maybe, but at that time he lost two times in a row in a challenge fight without any agreed rules.
I was understanding that your situation with GM Hee Il CHO, had taken place in the 2000 era, either way nobody took pictures? You come from the Judo Gracie Family-so you should not be commenting on GM like this-Your comments are disrespectful and at your level should not comment about other high ranks, from Master Edward Brian Scott- Australian TaeKwon-Do Ki-DoKan Interantional.
Not taking anything away from jujitsu but the majority of jujitsu guy’s have trash stand up. Both martial arts styles are good with in their own rights
Very disrespectful, i pratice Wing tsun and Tai chi, but i respect both bjj and taekwondo. He should propose a cross training instead challenging and humiliate a master in front of his class.
Rorion is a great man, he brought Jiujitsu to America and without him we wouldn’t know how to groundfight.
Also interesting that he picked Cho, a competitor with a style that could play into his hand. He didn't go to Pasadena and start mouthing off to Mr. Parker. And yes I said mouthing off because thats what bullies do. Here he is so many years later and he's proud of it. He should be ashamed of himself and apologize for acting like this.
Greatest thing to Mexican wrestling id ever seen *after moving to the states /in “states custody”(kidnapped) at the time Gracie jiujitsu especially progressed
I just came here to the comment section to hear from all of the world experts. 🙂
How's Gracie jujitsu helping with Kron's UFC record BTW?
“Absolutely Stunning.”
This is one of my favorite stories.
Another good reason why not to neglect the ground as taught by the Gracie’s.
Learn, Grow, Experience, Perfect.
So your stealing his student so wrong
I have a question. I started BJJ with Experience in Kenpo. My first match when the guy shot in to try and take me down my hand was already in a low position, raised it up and put my thumb in his eye. He of course fell back crying in pain saying That's not allowed. The question is what do BJJ guys do against multiple attackers in a REAL fight in the streets where just sticking a finger in your eye takes you out?
Loved this video!
Is Rorion going to give us a book, "The Sciene of Gracie Jiy Jitsu"? It'd be good. As well as, "How To Move From Position To Position in Gracie Jiu Jitsu". Or let Rickson or Relson have a piece of the pie. Seems Rickson would enjoy more, but who knows???
It'd help those of us in remote areas, far from classes.
I'm assuming this guy is related to the great Joyce Gracie, but I love how all these martial artists claim to have beaten the best, but there is never any evidence of their claims. I highly doubt this guy handled Master Hee Il Cho this easily.
Yes, back then when people were unaware of the grappling style many "traditional" martial artists lost to it. I was trained martial arts in the 1980s and 1990s and was one of the first wave to train BJJ. It was shocking how easy it was to take down martial artists. And I was mediocre and took down many with ease.
🤣🤣🤣What a joker 😂😂😂
Full of lies
Liars all them gracies
I do believe that the proof is in the pudding let's say but y r there so many Taekwondo schools but relatively few Jiu-jitsu schools? Is the Jiu-jitsu training just too hard on the body for the average person? Is the grappling just not an appealing experience for people who don't enjoy such intense contact?
WOW!! This story is actually very sad to hear. I've met both Rorion and Rickson (later Renzo) at my sisters wedding in the early 90's thru my D-Bag ex=-bro in law (Alan G.) Rickson and I met years later while surfing in Northern Malibu. I came very close to training with Rickson, but unfortunately missed that great opportunity. However, I DID train with Grandmaster Hee Il Cho just a year before this incident from 1976-77 at that studio. I'm just glad no one was seriously hurt. Cho was not just a kicking phenom, but taught boxing as well. Man!! Dammit. Had I trained Gracie JJ I coulda been the complete pkg. "I coulda been a contender". (Marlon Brando "On the Waterfront") All kidding aside. This is ancient history..so why do I have a pit in my stomach?
Choice could box and kick but never actually kickboxed anyone or grappled for that matter. His senior student Ameris can do it all but never learned it from cho.
@@scarred10 Agreed. I think Ameris started when I did in West L.A. Mid 70's??. Rorion helped build the family rep, b4 UFC, by challenging Korean Stylists, so I'm not sure if I buy the idea that he went there looking to teach GJJ. Why this video was even made..? Sometimes, even Grandmasters, need to keep their Ego in check!
@@michaelfarar4232 rorion was there to promote gjj obviously like he did in various judo dojos in LA in the 80s.I do believe master cho would have been easily taken down by a grappler that understood striking like rorion.
sounds like a BJJ BS.
Rorion is kind of a liar and Gracie propagandist.
Being a martial artist my all round game is good, and my first taste of Jiu Jitsu was a Carlos Machado seminar in 1995 to date myself.
Before that I was learning to be a better wrestler and getting some submission knowledge from both Catch and Shooto.
Rorion did his own family wrong by trademarking the Gracie Jiu Jitsu name and literally prevented other family members from opening schools with their own last name.
Rorion (whorion) also did Rickson wrong, so look into that if you want.
Rorion sucks. Rickson and Renzo are amazing. There are many better choices than Rorion.
The issue I have with even when I trained in Karate is that for one things forms are a waste of time takes up more than half your training ,and that very little or no training in ground fighting you ,have to be delusional if you think one on one that this will never end on the ground. Sorry that's the truth.
Top story, the spinning kick was the point made if he wanted to kick you he could've!!!,
Having done wado karate, judo, Japanese ju jitsu, kempo, cross trained before it was fashionable, in a real fight !!! Striking arts win,, real fights no rules , biting is allowed, gouging, all striking techniques are available, all hand techniques, take for example wing chun, why practice on the dummy ? To condition arms like a bar, one strike to your collar bone, broken !! Pain !!!
LOL UFC already answered all that, buy you're still towing the TMA party line. Broken collar bone? LOL
@@mikeabbot4616 I appreciate your a fan of ufc, which is wrestling using strikes, ufc is a sport, real fights no rules, Al hand techniques all strikes, to areas of the body, and remember martial arts is for fighting with clothes, not wearing tarzan trunks in a cage,
@@gordonmacdonald3841 The early UFC's were NHB. They had very few rules, but the kenpo/karate/kung-fu fighters still got clobbered. Have a good day.
@@mikeabbot4616 may weather clubbers mcgregor , why ? Most of his skill set is gone !!
So does a martial artist jump in the air do 3 spinning kicks a back flip kick before touching the ground ?
Front kicks where ? Groin, shin knee cap with shoes on, not midriff as on ufc, how about a low crescent kick to the knee cap to dislocate, can't in ufc, how about a kick I mistimed, ufc guy brings you to ground, can I choke him with his clothes ? Yes ! Can I trap his arms with his clothes ? Yes , can I hit pressure points ? Yes, can I bite Yes, real has no rule buddy am i going to front kick or snap kick to your nuts, absolutely, game over , am i going to dart fingers in your eyes of course , enjoy ufc for what it is.
@@mikeabbot4616 Jiu jitsu guys get mangled on a regular basis im MMA. And Carlson Gracie got KOed by "TMA guy" strikes back in the Vale Tudo days.
Saku embarrassed countless Gracies and they still refused to accept reality. Have a nice day.
Gracie jujitsu is based on steroids , Royce Gracie got caught using steroids in matches against a Japanese fighter.
Lets be honest Gracie's are just one big family business yes I think everyone knows this and with every family comes lies over hype stories but has anyone ever tried it......... In a real situation.....? I have before. Believe me it works. If you are scared to fight the type of guy that lacks confidence, it will put confidence in you like really fast within 8 months of training you will take out the common man. All marital arts are great really but have to be mastered overtime, but Jujitsu in 8 months even with not so good technical ability can still fight well. This what got me into it.
Dear Rorion Gracie, please upload the footage of your combative situation with GM Hee Il Cho, surely somebody had some footage recorded on their mobile phones? Master Edward Brian Scott of the Australian TaeKwon-Do Ki-DoKan International, in Ipswich, Qld, AUSTRALIA.
pretty mobile phone cameras didnt exist in 79.....
Where is the vhs ,show it
I LOVE THESE STORIES BJJ GUYS AND SAMBO JUDO GUYS PLEASE DON'T START ARGUING LOL BUT YES I LOVE THE GRAPPLING ARTS 9 TIMES OUT OF 10 IT WILL DOMINATE THE STRIKING ARTS
Not only they .... but the whole world did!
wow great story
Hilarious that so many are on here arguing which style is best when one bullet stops them all.
In altercations, police only shoot a suspect 35% of the time and they practice regularly and deal with violence daily. I doubt you, would hit anything...you should know the weapon doesn't make the man. And the courts aren't going to see things your way if you escalate a fist fight to a gun fight.
@@martial_matters not only did you miss the point, you demonstrated for all to see just how small your self worth is … try again.
OK Kim...
So which gun is best?
That's all changed now. Look what happened to Kron Gracie. Many fighters know jujitsu now. You need to be well rounded these days. Rickson was the best in my opinion back in the day.
I'm sure you are being honest. Considering the history of the Gracie family and starting sh*t. They used to call BJJ judo
Rorion , you are the best brother !!!! I love this !! Keep doing more !!!
I like it as well and love the way he tells the stories.. I'm laughing at all these people not wanting to face the truth that if you kick someone can take you down easy.. We see it all the time in the UFC and these people living in a bubble sem to think Cho could walk through the UFC with just his kicks lol He has em all brain washed! Like a cult! Rorion is talking real because he fights for real and any sized opponant Cho does not! Who did he beat for real!!?
Rorion Beat Hee and Benny with Basic Jiu Jit Su.
It just hurts the Feelings of the People Who Spent Decades and Decades of doing a Style that did NOT Work For Them when it counted, with Rorion … Who simply Showed Them
Yeah and I have hardly ever seen a Gracie beat someone stand up and I have watched them since the early 90's every since the first UFC.
If the Gracie didn’t train with the Japanese master, BJJ would be nothing. Also the Gracie bad mouthed the Japanese master instead of thanking him for the training and knowledge.
Are you a fan of Cho?
Do a video on the Wing Chun master calling the cops of Royce.
Do you mean Emin Boztepe?
I kind of believe you, but why not many in your field participate in MMA events? Do you agree had his first kick hit your face, you would have gone down? It is a matter of who gets to whom first. Depending on your timing and speed, there are defenses against take downs, including kicks to the face or punches on your spinal cord. Of course, I doubt it if he wanted to kick you for real. Restraining someone can be done more peacefully than hitting that person in face. Therefore, while your take down techniques can be more peacefully demonstrated, real punches and kicks cannot. I have heard a similar story from the top Japanese Jujitsu in Phoenix. He and another fellow are the only top genuine jujitsu instructors in the US, of course for their style. The other guy went into movies and is very famous while this fellow stayed in Phoenix and taught for years. I am not sure if he is still alive. I hope he is. His name is Jiro Shiroma. It was my honor to have met him. The other in the movies is Tadashi Yamashita.
Cool story bro.....
🙈😍🫡
💪💪💪💪💪👍👍👍👍
There's another story about when you visited my school, the US Taekwondo Center in the early 90s in Newport News, Virginia. I remember you.
That's teasing!
Did master gracie also defeat the master of your school?
Interestingly, there's not many virgins in Virginia.
Try me
Sakuroba
I squared off as tkd against Akido the guy was really good at flying leg scissors takedown and crescent and round house kicks did not work but front thrust snap and stepping side kicks worked well
👍👍👍
I absolutely can appreciate this story.