Nothing left out of this quick course on dealing with groundhogs. 👍 Dig-in and disguise those traps as shown here and block entrances to monitor for signs of re-use. Be sure to stake your traps well as critters may drag them into the woods along with your catch. btw, I just collected a second large female from a permission. I'm using single-spring Coni 160s, not the best but only one spring to clearance when setting in tight spaces.
I had one living in a hole next to a stump in my yard, he would run across the yard into the hole every time I was out mowing. I finally left the mower running and sat at the picnic table with the scope of my rifle trained on the opening to his hole. Only took a few minutes for him to get curious and poke his head out to see what I was up to. Well, he found out!
Fafo!😂 I set a trap on one that ran to his hole after he demolished a million brassica plants in my food plot last night, and I rock blocked the other 2 holes! Unless he had 4 holes I got him when I get home this evening!!
Interesting conversation in the comments. For myself the double ended live traps are so much simpler and time efficient. No need for bait or camoflouge. And no risk to the local dogs cats and children. The groundhogs are stupid enough that if you just put the trap in their path they will walk through it every time. You can drop the trap in a barrel of water for a quick and humane(imho) ending with no need to get permissions or inflict the animal on unsuspecting landowners. Remember ground hog holes in open fields or pastures break legs of farm animals and damage farm machinery so the iconic Mr. Farmer who does not mind the extra wildlife does not exist.
thanks For watching , the person before me had educated the groundhog s to live traps and were making it hard to outsmart these that I made the video on , I'm not opposed to live traps and would really like to design and build my own sometime again thanks for watching and commenting.
Very good I am switching from the .22 since I don't what neighbors attention so was looking for something where I would not have to dispatch if held by the leg. This was good info. thank you for posting it.
it is discreet at dispatch, just be careful around roaming pets that may like poking there head into holes or do the large wire over method as I show on video Thanks for watching.
What kind of trap do you set when they are digging their holes in the ground instead of under a building? They have dug 5 large holes in my yard under my deck and I'm not sure how to get them.
if I was on site probably evaluate which ones I could work with the easiest and I personally fill in the hardest ones for me to trap because of the hole shape, if they open it back up I'll then adjust , if I were to trap them alot of variables take place , safety of kids , safety of pets , safety of dealing with non target s , if I checked the box on all those, I would then the try to figure what traps in my tool box of tricks would work safest for the way the holes are positioned , foothold s work great when anchored outside the hole in such a way they cannot get there self back into the hole but then you have the task of dispatch with a 22 lr , livetraps work but can be tricky if they do not want to enter , Smoke bombs specifically made for killing ground hogs are most likely the best option in the evening when they are in the holes for the night , just plug most holes like the directions read and Asphyxiation happens if you go by the direction s from the manufacturer, but being under your deck would be a fire hazard so probably not best option also .
@@myhuntchronicles I think when I can, I will have to try the traps. Luckily in my situation, I don't have to worry about kids or pets. Oddly enough, it seems that they aren't spending the night in these holes. They come in and graze on my lawn and sun themselves on the stairs to my deck and then run back out of the yard so I need to trap them as they try to run into the hole when I spook them.
Now have been Eatting them after dispatching them. It's the best ever. Presser cook them 25 minutes then put it in a large turkey roaster with potatoes,carrots and onion I season with garlic powder salt and pepper and just enough water about 1" and bake at 350 till meat comes off the bone.
I've been dealing with groundhogs in my pole shed for the last 2 years. Dirt floor (bought it that way). I've live trapped two and dispatched them myself. Not fun. Just bought two conibears so I don't have to do that again. Great video.
just becareful as the conibears are non discriminatory on who they bite if mishandled always use the safety s while setting and keep small pets and kids far away , they are great tools if used properly thanks for watching.
@@myhuntchronicles I actually just bought a setter similar to the one you use just to be safe. Luckily, the burrow is inside my pole shed so no pets or other folks have access to it.
Live trap, put it down in a creek or lake. People say thats cruel, I would argue thats pretty darn humane. Drowning is not tortuouse as people make it out to be. Couple breaths and you are out. It is the STRUGGLE, before hand, that is the terrifying part. I'm curious what the trapper hear thinks of that method. Those HUGE conibears.... BOY, those are about as instant as you can get. Then again, a bullet is pretty instant.
Neat but seems kinda dangerous to me. I just grab my .25 caliber Airforce Condor SS high power air rifle. A 34 grain pellet at around a thousand feet per second definitely drops them powerfully with no problem. A little bit of cantaloupe chopped up for bait, they come out and click and they drop.
in this instance I cannot sit and wait while I'm at my day job ,so these traps do the job while I'm away under specific circumstances , and yes these traps are to be respected and review the safety measures for sure , Thanks for watching
@@myhuntchronicles understandable and your welcome. I do coyotes the same way. I just turn up the adjustable power wheel on my air rifle. One good thing about air rifles is they are quiet and sub sonic in most cases.
I've had groundhogs around my property for a long time and started using konabear traps and have had fantastic results with them. Never really needed to disguise them. The groundhogs will use their holes even if you try to plug them up, they will try to get back in the holes no matter what you do to stop them and I've used that behavior to get rid of many of them.
The RBG kill trap is fine, but dangerous around pets, kids. A powered, double door, wire trigger cage trap with nose cone can be set in less time, a minute, that is not dangerous. A small 9x11x24 inch Comstock Cage will do the same safely and quicker.
I agree with all said , if this wasn't in this situation I would not set it , I had an opportunity to with children around and I said NO , and if Pets were around I won't set with the RBG , Jim I'll be looking into your Traps Thank you for the feedback.
Thanks With time I should be able to add more content , The Weasel video was a quick action video at a last minute set because the Weasel was hiding three pens over and I had to act quickly ,other than that I have actual Weasel boxes meant for trapping season , I'll give more Coyote instructions soon on alternative sets I've used in the Past Again thanks for watching .
We have them bad here I am in New York State. Every year I kill them... every year they come back. Been looking for an alternate to shoot in them.. Thanks for the video.
@@myhuntchronicles I'm looking out my deck now for one lolol. I set a havaheart trap but also got some steel on stand by . They are really out of control
You got war with ground hog, I got war with Gophers it is harder to kill than ground hog, i can't plant any vegetables at all in my back yard, can you give me an idea please? .
can you totally fence the vegetable plot in with 1 inch x1 inch wire around the perimeter? or next by your states laws see if you can use the Gopher smoke bombs and smoke them out it actually will kill them underground , and it may be by your state laws be easier to trap them at your garden , fence in most of your garden but leave an opening for gopher traveling and at this point set what trap your state will allow ? I hear a stealthy small gopher size live trap camouflage it a bit with cantaloupe as a bait may work , if they travel mainly underground I'd trap at the entrance s they use in and out also.
Never heard anyone say that before. The opposite yes. I have only seen square conibear traps, those are neat. Here in Pa they are only legal in water sets completely submerged.
@@ctfan1486 the small ground hogs are the ones the old timers would eat , back in the day people were hungrier than we are now, we nuisance trappers have certain guidelines and can use certain traps when we follow those set guidelines , poisons are another if we get permits for such But I've never seen the need for anything like that , thanks for watching my content .
So I've heard! I have an infestation so I will soon be finding out myself. I was shooting them and wasting them last year. Since, I've heard they're great eating, so I can't wait to try it.
probably the inherent risks associated with kill traps are why the agency s write in the ruling , some jobs I have done won't work with the kill traps and I have to employ other tactics , thanks for watching.
One trap was enough to show how. At least I learned groundhogs and gophers are different critters. Gophers are much smaller but still a big problem. Show us how to get rid of gophers.
@@myhuntchronicles I went out and shot a ground hog after I watched your video. Now I only have 3 more to go under my shop. (I live on a farm, plenty of em.) Where are you located curious?
1 more thought, I've also gassed them in the past.... have you ever done that? You shove what looks like a hunk of dynamite up the hole, light it, and stuff it closed, "Good night" animals. Common in farming.
@@sam__304 I would argue that you are talking about hunting / trapping wildlife regulations. In this case, it is nuisance, no season, and pest. Covering this trap is nothing but SMART THINKING, because that is a dangerous, sob, for pets, and humans, etc. that are unawair. I'm not sure where this trapper is, and what "law" there may be for covering it. But his LIABILITY and potential lawsuit for not, is simiply also not worth it. Another reason I'd just as soon live trap and put em in the creek or pond for a few minute bath,
The state I live in have the Rules set and those rules don't allow the setting free of animals in their rules because of spread of animal diseases into other population s you can actually be fined and or arrested for that ,disgusting is when creatures die of distemper ,Mange,and Rabies because someone introduced it into a healthy population by trying to be nice.
I am sorry, but this killing them is appalling. We have a groundhog in our garden eating everything. But, we set a LIVE trap, catch him, and move him away. This is shockingly , horribly mean. I hope Karma gets you, you sick, gross man.
I obviously listen to your opinions , but your comment sick and appalling that you would even comment on Karma , By state regulations where I live nuisance animal s CANNOT LEGALLY be moved if so I would then lose liscence and could be fined , if you move a raccoon in our state A WARDEN could take measures against you Moving an animal is not always an option .
@Richard Lippincott no, but to my knowledge, every bit of reachable property is owned by some other entity that most likely will not grant permission to release groundhogs. As the prior answer to your question indicates, it may even be illegal. So, snark aside, can you elaborate on what the situation is in your area? What is the status of the land you are releasing on? Did you have to get permission? If you really care about saving groundhog lives, you will give a helpful answer.
@@FranconiaFriend Thanks for your stance as even state owned game lands are not open for release of nuisance Animals as the release of said animal can harbor disease and distribute it to a clean population that's why our state deems certain species as kill on site only .
That is superstitious nonsense bordering on idiocy. Try living with us in the real world and get a different perspective on life. When those things leave a natural setting and dig under buildings they become vermin like rats and mice.
Never seen round body traps. Thank you.
Rbg outta Indiana sells them , your welcome.
Nothing left out of this quick course on dealing with groundhogs. 👍 Dig-in and disguise those traps as shown here and block entrances to monitor for signs of re-use. Be sure to stake your traps well as critters may drag them into the woods along with your catch. btw, I just collected a second large female from a permission. I'm using single-spring Coni 160s, not the best but only one spring to clearance when setting in tight spaces.
Thank you sir for watching and for the great comments 🙏
I had one living in a hole next to a stump in my yard, he would run across the yard into the hole every time I was out mowing. I finally left the mower running and sat at the picnic table with the scope of my rifle trained on the opening to his hole. Only took a few minutes for him to get curious and poke his head out to see what I was up to. Well, he found out!
they are slick when they accustomed to living near house for sure 😆
Same here. Every time I mowed
Fafo!😂 I set a trap on one that ran to his hole after he demolished a million brassica plants in my food plot last night, and I rock blocked the other 2 holes! Unless he had 4 holes I got him when I get home this evening!!
Interesting conversation in the comments. For myself the double ended live traps are so much simpler and time efficient. No need for bait or camoflouge. And no risk to the local dogs cats and children. The groundhogs are stupid enough that if you just put the trap in their path they will walk through it every time. You can drop the trap in a barrel of water for a quick and humane(imho) ending with no need to get permissions or inflict the animal on unsuspecting landowners. Remember ground hog holes in open fields or pastures break legs of farm animals and damage farm machinery so the iconic Mr. Farmer who does not mind the extra wildlife does not exist.
thanks For watching , the person before me had educated the groundhog s to live traps and were making it hard to outsmart these that I made the video on , I'm not opposed to live traps and would really like to design and build my own sometime again thanks for watching and commenting.
They don't just walk in a box trap
Very good I am switching from the .22 since I don't what neighbors attention so was looking for something where I would not have to dispatch if held by the leg. This was good info. thank you for posting it.
it is discreet at dispatch, just be careful around roaming pets that may like poking there head into holes or do the large wire over method as I show on video Thanks for watching.
Enjoyed watching
Great catch!,
What kind of trap do you set when they are digging their holes in the ground instead of under a building? They have dug 5 large holes in my yard under my deck and I'm not sure how to get them.
if I was on site probably evaluate which ones I could work with the easiest and I personally fill in the hardest ones for me to trap because of the hole shape, if they open it back up I'll then adjust , if I were to trap them alot of variables take place , safety of kids , safety of pets , safety of dealing with non target s , if I checked the box on all those, I would then the try to figure what traps in my tool box of tricks would work safest for the way the holes are positioned , foothold s work great when anchored outside the hole in such a way they cannot get there self back into the hole but then you have the task of dispatch with a 22 lr , livetraps work but can be tricky if they do not want to enter , Smoke bombs specifically made for killing ground hogs are most likely the best option in the evening when they are in the holes for the night , just plug most holes like the directions read and Asphyxiation happens if you go by the direction s from the manufacturer, but being under your deck would be a fire hazard so probably not best option also .
@@myhuntchronicles I think when I can, I will have to try the traps. Luckily in my situation, I don't have to worry about kids or pets. Oddly enough, it seems that they aren't spending the night in these holes. They come in and graze on my lawn and sun themselves on the stairs to my deck and then run back out of the yard so I need to trap them as they try to run into the hole when I spook them.
@@airsearch1 cover some holes lightly with duff and see which ones for sure they are using to narrow down which ones they do clean out and re use.
@@myhuntchronicles will do
Where did u get your traps
ATS Animal Traps supplies in Michigan look them up quick service I highly recommend.
Now have been Eatting them after dispatching them. It's the best ever. Presser cook them 25 minutes then put it in a large turkey roaster with potatoes,carrots and onion I season with garlic powder salt and pepper and just enough water about 1" and bake at 350 till meat comes off the bone.
they are a grazer so they will be cleaner to eat than alot of critter s and lots of it to go around.
Great video I enjoyed it know what was involved to catching a groundhog with your great professional at it thank you
thanks sir for watching I hope to get more informational nuisance videos out so others can safely learn.
Wish I knew about these traps sooner dam varmets chewed thru my wires and have tunnels all thru my under pinning on my trailer
they are nice traps , if you purchase make sure to buy the setters also.
Nice work
thanks Sir
Nice
groundhogs are cleaning my garden out, have tried to trap them in box trap but no luck
Use cantaloupe pieces in a live trap big enough to accommodate a large ground hog should work
@@myhuntchronicles tired that apples PeanutButter and honey, carrots, but it seems the poison blocks maybe working
I've been dealing with groundhogs in my pole shed for the last 2 years. Dirt floor (bought it that way). I've live trapped two and dispatched them myself. Not fun. Just bought two conibears so I don't have to do that again. Great video.
just becareful as the conibears are non discriminatory on who they bite if mishandled always use the safety s while setting and keep small pets and kids far away , they are great tools if used properly thanks for watching.
@@myhuntchronicles I actually just bought a setter similar to the one you use just to be safe. Luckily, the burrow is inside my pole shed so no pets or other folks have access to it.
Live trap, put it down in a creek or lake. People say thats cruel, I would argue thats pretty darn humane. Drowning is not tortuouse as people make it out to be. Couple breaths and you are out. It is the STRUGGLE, before hand, that is the terrifying part. I'm curious what the trapper hear thinks of that method. Those HUGE conibears.... BOY, those are about as instant as you can get. Then again, a bullet is pretty instant.
Just leave it in the live trap, a day later it’s all over.
Outstanding...👍
Can you please let me know where can we order this traps and what is the name ? Thank you in advance.
RBG animal trap supplies in Michigan is where mine came from.
I would sit in a lawn chair with a .22 , real simple, done it.
Elderly woman didn't want that option
Round Conibear trap... who knew.
work great on sqaure shy beaver Also
Neat but seems kinda dangerous to me. I just grab my .25 caliber Airforce Condor SS high power air rifle. A 34 grain pellet at around a thousand feet per second definitely drops them powerfully with no problem. A little bit of cantaloupe chopped up for bait, they come out and click and they drop.
in this instance I cannot sit and wait while I'm at my day job ,so these traps do the job while I'm away under specific circumstances , and yes these traps are to be respected and review the safety measures for sure , Thanks for watching
@@myhuntchronicles understandable and your welcome. I do coyotes the same way. I just turn up the adjustable power wheel on my air rifle. One good thing about air rifles is they are quiet and sub sonic in most cases.
@@shawndubay4050 I'd love to be able to do more air gunning but not been able to fit that in I will someday 4 sure.
.17HMR is my method...I'm afraid my cats would end up in a trap.
@@matthewtaylor2185 oh yeah most likely the cats would , thanks for watching
What size trap were you using?
#160 RBG 6 inch opening
get a pit bull. Mine is obsessed with groundhogs and will dispatch them very quickly.
it's great to have a groundhog dog .
I've had groundhogs around my property for a long time and started using konabear traps and have had fantastic results with them. Never really needed to disguise them. The groundhogs will use their holes even if you try to plug them up, they will try to get back in the holes no matter what you do to stop them and I've used that behavior to get rid of many of them.
thanks again for watching , great observation and tip that's one reason I use them .
The RBG kill trap is fine, but dangerous around pets, kids. A powered, double door, wire trigger cage trap with nose cone can be set in less time, a minute, that is not dangerous. A small 9x11x24 inch Comstock Cage will do the same safely and quicker.
I agree with all said , if this wasn't in this situation I would not set it , I had an opportunity to with children around and I said NO , and if Pets were around I won't set with the RBG , Jim I'll be looking into your Traps Thank you for the feedback.
why not keep them alive and release elsewhere? humans think they own the earth, im so tired of it@@myhuntchronicles
I have farmer friends who are always complaining about them. I will forward to them so they don't have to sit there and plink with a .22.
thanks for watching sir, glad to help out
How much do you charge the landowner?
Depends on hours spent $100 / per setting
@@myhuntchronicles Does that cover multiple days? Ike if you set three traps and check them for 3 days, is that still 100?
@inthemwoods523 a ground hog that had multiple holes if you catch him and have no further luck , I just keep set and monitor before filling back in.
Appreciate the instructions as I’m new to trapping here in NC. Subscribed to your channel!
Thanks With time I should be able to add more content , The Weasel video was a quick action video at a last minute set because the Weasel was hiding three pens over and I had to act quickly ,other than that I have actual Weasel boxes meant for trapping season , I'll give more Coyote instructions soon on alternative sets I've used in the Past Again thanks for watching .
Great video.
thank you sir for watching I hope to produce more with a bit of hands on education to help others
thank you sir for watching and I hope it may help out .
We have them bad here I am in New York State. Every year I kill them... every year they come back. Been looking for an alternate to shoot in them.. Thanks for the video.
thanks for watching , we are seeing a resurgence .
@@myhuntchronicles I'm looking out my deck now for one lolol. I set a havaheart trap but also got some steel on stand by . They are really out of control
@@myhuntchronicles I'll be looking into these traps thanks again
@@dirty_worm_850 be safe when using them , livetraps will work but I personally don't have a fleet of livetraps to use and the good ones are $100 each
His (her) spring weather forecasting days are over.
it wasn't doing a good job anyway .😆
You got war with ground hog, I got war with Gophers it is harder to kill than ground hog, i can't plant any vegetables at all in my back yard, can you give me an idea please? .
can you totally fence the vegetable plot in with 1 inch x1 inch wire around the perimeter? or next by your states laws see if you can use the Gopher smoke bombs and smoke them out it actually will kill them underground , and it may be by your state laws be easier to trap them at your garden , fence in most of your garden but leave an opening for gopher traveling and at this point set what trap your state will allow ? I hear a stealthy small gopher size live trap camouflage it a bit with cantaloupe as a bait may work , if they travel mainly underground I'd trap at the entrance s they use in and out also.
They are good to eat, too!!
yes sir a good meal in them .
Never heard anyone say that before. The opposite yes. I have only seen square conibear traps, those are neat. Here in Pa they are only legal in water sets completely submerged.
@@ctfan1486 the small ground hogs are the ones the old timers would eat , back in the day people were hungrier than we are now, we nuisance trappers have certain guidelines and can use certain traps when we follow those set guidelines , poisons are another if we get permits for such But I've never seen the need for anything like that , thanks for watching my content .
Good eating right there!
sure is vegetarian fed goodies 😉
@@myhuntchronicles most definitely!
So I've heard! I have an infestation so I will soon be finding out myself. I was shooting them and wasting them last year. Since, I've heard they're great eating, so I can't wait to try it.
@@robrowland2113 I've eaten whistle pigs my whole life.. fried like chicken, roasted over a fire, grilled, or baked... All taste great!
It looks like you have a whole family of ground hogs . But out some carrots in front of the trap they love carrots.
I've heard carrots 🥕 and cantaloupe in the live traps work .
WISH EVERYONE LET ME USE KILL TRAPS. WOULD MAKE MY JOB MUCH EASIER.AND LESS EXPENSIVE TO BUY LIVE TRAPS. BUT SO GOES THE WILDLIFE CONTROL BUSINESS.
probably the inherent risks associated with kill traps are why the agency s write in the ruling , some jobs I have done won't work with the kill traps and I have to employ other tactics , thanks for watching.
that dog will hunt !lol!
👍👍
Never seen a round one
they work well
One trap was enough to show how. At least I learned groundhogs and gophers are different critters. Gophers are much smaller but still a big problem. Show us how to get rid of gophers.
well I don't think we have gophers in our state but if we did I'd sure figure out how to target them , thanks for watching.
It's not groundhog day yet.
Thanks for Watching Ronald
Dumb law! Do your best to abolish it!
I catch them with a 223
that's a cool way to catch them also
243 since I was 12.... still my favorite gun. NAILED one tonight.
@@brentbarnhart5827 I had used a 243 on years past
@@myhuntchronicles I went out and shot a ground hog after I watched your video. Now I only have 3 more to go under my shop. (I live on a farm, plenty of em.) Where are you located curious?
1 more thought, I've also gassed them in the past.... have you ever done that? You shove what looks like a hunk of dynamite up the hole, light it, and stuff it closed, "Good night" animals. Common in farming.
I wish I had groundhogs. I welcome all wild animals even hogs.
Yeah and they taste like chicken
wtf!
get out of your city bubble of false realities
That's a baby mom is 3 times that size.
I just shoot them with my 410 it is easier.
True, but the elderly lady can't, and I had to work my day job 😅 thanks for watching.
Seen one of the square one snap my brothers hand trapping beaver good thing the safety was still hooked,it was cold but it still made his hand hurt
yea I'm ultra careful as the round ones are even easier to set off .
How did it snap if the safety was still hooked?
@@sam__304 one spring still has some power in it .
@myhuntchronicles Oops, I thought of that after I asked the question. In WV ,conibear traps over 5 inches can only be set underwater
@@sam__304 I would argue that you are talking about hunting / trapping wildlife regulations. In this case, it is nuisance, no season, and pest. Covering this trap is nothing but SMART THINKING, because that is a dangerous, sob, for pets, and humans, etc. that are unawair. I'm not sure where this trapper is, and what "law" there may be for covering it. But his LIABILITY and potential lawsuit for not, is simiply also not worth it. Another reason I'd just as soon live trap and put em in the creek or pond for a few minute bath,
ferrrel cat have rights
groundhogs are horrible
They can wreak havoc
This is disgusting you could catch them and release them back into the wild you don't have to kill them
The state I live in have the Rules set and those rules don't allow the setting free of animals in their rules because of spread of animal diseases into other population s you can actually be fined and or arrested for that ,disgusting is when creatures die of distemper ,Mange,and Rabies because someone introduced it into a healthy population by trying to be nice.
Yea, and where you people release them, then they come to MY FARM…. 😢😢😢 We work hard enough as it is. 😮
I am sorry, but this killing them is appalling. We have a groundhog in our garden eating everything. But, we set a LIVE trap, catch him, and move him away. This is shockingly , horribly mean. I hope Karma gets you, you sick, gross man.
I obviously listen to your opinions , but your comment sick and appalling that you would even comment on Karma , By state regulations where I live nuisance animal s CANNOT LEGALLY be moved if so I would then lose liscence and could be fined , if you move a raccoon in our state A WARDEN could take measures against you Moving an animal is not always an option .
Richard Lippincott where do you move them to? AFAIK no one in my area is really begging for more groundhogs.
@@FranconiaFriend take them to the woods, far away. easily done. maybe they are too heavy for you to lift them???
@Richard Lippincott no, but to my knowledge, every bit of reachable property is owned by some other entity that most likely will not grant permission to release groundhogs. As the prior answer to your question indicates, it may even be illegal. So, snark aside, can you elaborate on what the situation is in your area? What is the status of the land you are releasing on? Did you have to get permission? If you really care about saving groundhog lives, you will give a helpful answer.
@@FranconiaFriend Thanks for your stance as even state owned game lands are not open for release of nuisance Animals as the release of said animal can harbor disease and distribute it to a clean population that's why our state deems certain species as kill on site only .
Убив сурка - ты сократил свою жизнь на 1 год. Займись лучше полезным делом.
That is superstitious nonsense bordering on idiocy. Try living with us in the real world and get a different perspective on life. When those things leave a natural setting and dig under buildings they become vermin like rats and mice.