Lasombra, specifically Obtenebration, has always been an instant draw for me. I love the ideas it can explore and the Lasombra. Do you think they will ever introduce bloodlines in V5? Specifically Kiasyd or a Maeghar/fae touched vampire?
I'm not sure how much we'll see in the case of Bloodlines in V5. It seems to me that most "Bloodline adaptations" can be achieved through the use of the Predator Type Mechanic. Altough the Kiasyd would be an interesting thing to see. I can't help but wonder what Mytherceria would be an amalgam of. Now that Necromancy and Obtenebration are the same the discipline and the original Disciplines of the Kiasyd were Mytherceria, Obtenebration and Necromancy, before the revision that is.
She's mentioned in the Sabbat book as being one of the few Archbishops left that holds Territory, still ruling over Madrid after taking it from her sire.
I was totally fine with the Lasombra rewrite as well. I think most people who critique the (so called) “changes” overlook a lot of information given through the years about the clan and stick to their (often not really correct) memory of the stereotypical Sabbat mob and Machiavellian manipulators they remember from their games back in the days… Both versions are not wrong, they certainly do exist, but the Clan can be and is so much more. The change of the bane is pretty much just a change of what is common and what is the exceptional. There was a Lasombra specific advantage, that made the vampires mirror image not suddenly disappear, but slowly age and rot away. It always reminded me of the Picture of Dorian Gray (and Gray would be such a brilliant Lasombra Character imo). And I vaguely remember other merits and flaws that effected a Lasombras weakness as well. Not to forget the Laibon Legacy of Lasombra descendance that does not lose their reflections at all. If you just declare those variants to be the default and the total loss of the reflection (represented by fitting flaws that already exist in V5) as the exception, nothing has changed at all. The unification of Obtenebration and Necromancy in to Oblivion is, imo, more a reveal, that these powers are actually related, then a change. Much like Protean and Serpentis. The thing is that in the WoD cosmology several different metaphysical places are called the Abyss. I witnessed that people who are not okay with the fusion have often a specific understanding what the Obtenebration Abyss is and is not, while even in game most Lasombra weren’t really able to locate or identify it. In my headcanon the Sea of shadows, a part of the underworld, and the Lasombra Abyss can totally be the same thing. As Matthew Dawkins aka the Gentleman Gamer once described it, one is about the things in the underworld, the other is about the stuff the underworld is made off. The mentioned reveal may happened, when the Harbingers of skulls and Kiasyd noticed the suspicious similarities of the life sucking energies used for Obtenebration and Necromancy, while just the tradition, how oblivion was used by Lasombra and Cappadocians/Giovanni/Hecata, was what let it appear to be different disciplines. And only few people through history had ever the opportunity to noticed that it is actually the same. Much like Protean and Serpentis and Thaumaturgy and Quietus. The shift to the Camarilla is in my eyes super consequential and maybe the most “lasombra like” thing ever happened in the history of the game. They are manipulators, when the Sabbat decided to fight its crusade, they realized that they are forced to either give up on everything they achieved to probably die in a far away land, or to lose the majority of people they are used to manipulate. It is much like the Tzimisce who realized that they need to give up on their beloved possessions, they are basically chained to (love the new bane of the dragons). Which leads to the interesting situation, that both founding clans of the Sabbat had the biggest interest to leave the very sect they are nearly exclusively associated with. To switch to the camarilla made super-duper sense, since the sect went back to a feudal hierarchy the Lasombra were used to control back in the dark ages. The Sects rejection of technology seams also suspiciously handy for a clan that has problems with dealing with such things while being a powerhouse if it comes to dealing with people, either socially or physically in real life. One might think that some… advisor of the Camarilla who made this decision happen might be of the Antitribu variety of the Schadows, who coincidentally came up with this idea, long before anyone could have guessed that the main clan will ever come to knock at the doors. Or was it a coincidence? We will probably never know. The two Lasombra characters I came up with immediately when I read the V5 version are a catholic priest, who still works as such, but understands himself now as god’s chosen monster, who has a secret identity as basically Daredevil with fangs and a much darker moral system. The second is a young student nurse, who is actually a good person but a goth kid and socially awkward. That lead to the situation that her sire thought she would be a psychopathic “Angel of Mercy” who murdered some patients while she actually was not. But being a goth kid, she embraced her vampire existence very quickly but needs to deal with the ruthlessness and “inner darkness” of the Lasombra in her own way. Have not played them yet but would love to in the future.
Given that the Collapse of the Sabbat made no sense, and the complete removal of paths, indeed, the introduction of a morality system incapable of supporting them, makes it clear they where off screened because they had no plans for them at all (what happens now, with the multiple changes in management is any ones guess) and then, to top it all, the Camarilla also acting like total idiots, to allow the Anarchs to ascend to the throne unopposed was insane,. also the transformation of the Tzim from mystics, mad scientists and trans-humanists, into weird territorial gangrel with dominate instead of fortitude was completely baffling, and destroys what made them interesting, then we get this utter betrayal and defilement of the Lasombra, the blind hatred of the devs is clear, they hate VtM, they hate the fans, and they hate the setting, every book they publish, every interview makes this hatred more and more clear,
@@justicar5 Wow, you really sound like a totally balanced and sane person who totally knows what he is talking about. I need to totally change my mind because your nuanced and well measured comment convinced me. Thank you for sharing your totally flawless opinion. Just to be sure, you know what sarcasm is, do you?
@@theOriginalS.P. I do Indeed know what sarcasm is. No comment I could have made would have changed your mind, you already declared that anyone who didn't agree with you didn't know the lore, and that all the changes were great, so your mind was closed on the subject anyway. I mean the nonsensical drivel about the Sabbat at the start of your post made that clear
@@theOriginalS.P. Bro..., im sane and all you have to do is a little research and u will understand why the V5 core book exists. I'm not gonna do it for you, but it was a cash grab from the parent company, using ALL the art and half done writing plus a ton of assets that they inherited from the cancelled MMO, spread out into those weird book games that came out and the insane RECALLED Anarch & Camarilla books (and of course the core book which is why everything feels all disjointed. A ton of holes had to be filled in by ppl unfamiliar with the lore). They were weird, bc they were part of a cannibalized story from the MMO "ACTUAL WW" put all there money into. I mean shit, the 2016/2017 documentary has a ton of art for the MMO right there in the background in the "V5 books" that was claimed as concept art for the MMO in the doc. Once Modiphius basically was handed the reins recently, they're actually TRYING to right the ship, but why even fuck with it, when u have the real shit behind it with real love and planned out lore past 2e. Notice Bloodlines 2 is dead quiet also after firing the OGs. Same kind of shit. Do the research. Shit was half baked from the beginning and your swallowing shit out of desperation. Just like ppl defending Disney Star Wars till they couldn't anymore, and realized IT WAS HALF BAKED FROM THE BEGINING. Hey, I think it sucks too. Cyberpunk 2077. SAME. What a time to be alive.
@@briankeys5941 I am well informed about pretty much everything about VtM since second edition (yes, that is how old I am!) Including V5 since its first announcement and the event in berlin. And I actually work in the industry (won’t go into detail, because I will not poison the relationship to possible projects and clients but believe me, I am aware). As far as I can tell with my knowledge and experience, your observations are mostly right but you make the wrong conclusions. The way you can tell your self is by looking at your last sentence. You throw Star Wars, Cyberpunk and VtM in to one bucked and call it “all the same” while each of this property suffers by very different problems and the backstory how they got there is totally different. The only thing they have in common is, that they were a disappointment for a big part of the fan community. I think what you overestimate is how small RPGs are. If you are not D&D you can barely make money out of it. That makes RPGs a very poor target for cash grabs. No one who just want the money would even try to resurrect this property. But do you know who would? Actual fans would. And that was part of the problem. So, let me tell you what imo actually happened to V5. It ultimately started with a huge mismanagement by the “new White Wolf” Team. I am pretty sure that you are aware of all the backlashes and controversies they faced in the early stages of the project that ultimately lead to WW being destroyed and reintegrated into paradox. That happened, because the team mismanaged the IP and cost paradox money. They totally underestimated what managing such an influential IP means in times of social media, I guess. If you are familiar with the game and the industry and the “art” of game designing, you can tell, that they actually putt a lot of thought and love for details and previous editions into V5. Something your average cash grabber would not do. Someone who just grabs the money don't develope a new system. He just repaints what is already there and you are good to go (and if they would have done that, like V20 did, the backlesh would probably not have been that bad). But beyond that, the team was simply overwhelmed with the situation and the backlashes up to the point where the paradox CEO pulled the plug. All the MMO art you mentioned was part of the deal with CCP. You have to know, art is one of the most expensive parts of RPGs. But it is also important. Even so important that some designers and publishers recommend to better put no art in your game than bad art. But the IP alone will have cost paradox an arm and a leg and a first born. Sitting on boxes and boxes full of unused, nice looking art for the IP you are working on and not using it would have been simply insane from a commercial standpoint. Let us talk about Lasombra, because this video is about them. They are actually from Chicago by night, which is not a Paradox/WW book but a licensed one done by Onyx Path Publishing. It is unusual to let a third party company develop such an important aspect of your game instead of making it inhouse and just let the other company use it. I know, that OPP had to fight to be allowed to put the Lasombra in Chicago by night, because they thought, that Chicago needs them and they don’t wanted to leave the Lasombra characters out. An example what happens when they do that is in “Let the streets run red” where OPP decided to rather consider all Ravonos character to be caitiff, because they weren’t allowed to make rules for them. At that point, Modiphius was in charge of development. Long story short, with OPP was yet another party involved, but fortunately one that is known to handle the IP well. You like V20? The developers are the same guys and girls! Let’s talk about Modiphius for a moment. Do you remember that they delayed the announced V5 Players Guide for long over a year? (probably not, because you don’t seem to be interested in V5). If someone tried to press money out of the VtM IP it was Modiphius. I don’t blame them for that. RPGs are expensive to make but hard to sell. Every compony tries to make as much money out of that as they can, just to end up even (and that was ultimately where new WW probably failed). But Modiphius started to release expensive but ultimately useless stuff instead of developing the actual game further. And the only thing they actually did, the players guide was such badly received by paradox and playtesters, that it never saw the light of day and moved paradox to pull the property again in to inhouse development. (Thay also did Fall of London under license before, but that was a different situation and Fall of London is, well, not exactly a good book). Another thing you don’t do, if you just want to make money out of it. Which is, btw, how CCP handled things when they owned VtM and WoD. They just let OPP do, basically what ever they wanted, rarely intervened and just cashed in the license-money (that is, how a cash grab looks like!). Very long story short: what you end up with is, an actually good product, made by fans who unfortunately overestimated their ability to manage the thing, that got pushed around for a while but is now back on trek with a team, that contains both, veterans as well as people from the V5 developer team as well as completely new faces. To put that much afford in continuing a failed IP (commercially failed, not failed because it is bad on its own) you need to have actual love for it, otherwise, you just sell the IP to someone else and run away with the money as fast as you can.
I'm still running v20 because I have no practical incentive not to but if I ran v5 I'd probably downplay the lasombra defection as a minority defection into a substantive anti group. Basically lasombra like most clans have a defector group in other sects but are still majority Sabbat. I'd also re-seperate obtenerbration and necromancy because the fusion is a total mess and badly conceived.
You should totally stay with V20 if that makes you happy. It's an awesome storyline and a great system. They're still putting out new stuff for it and everything. I think that the V5 storyline and the v20 storylines are the biggest difference between the two systems. The Sabbat are on highly shaking ground right now in v5 and I do not think that the Lasombra or the Tzimisce truly fit into the narrative anymore. We'll see when that book comes out soon ;)
@@VoivodeMekhet I've been trying to re-write fluff issues to synergise better with the 3rd/20th fluff. So far I've only had to make one major retcon a lot of times it feels like I'm putting the spit and polish that should have been done in v5's development cycle. For example clan heceta is a lot more disjointed in my fluff. More a series of non aggression pacts and a compromise so everyone gets the prestige of being a clan. The cappadocians will not be breaking bread with the giovanni anytime soon, no one likes the naraja and everyone fears the harbingers. Plus I gave the anarchs coherent political structures and laws. If they're going to be a big boy sect they have to have put big boy pants on, you can't just cosplay as antifa and call the prince a fascist because you're not allowed in elysium.
Lasombra, specifically Obtenebration, has always been an instant draw for me. I love the ideas it can explore and the Lasombra. Do you think they will ever introduce bloodlines in V5? Specifically Kiasyd or a Maeghar/fae touched vampire?
I'm not sure how much we'll see in the case of Bloodlines in V5. It seems to me that most "Bloodline adaptations" can be achieved through the use of the Predator Type Mechanic. Altough the Kiasyd would be an interesting thing to see. I can't help but wonder what Mytherceria would be an amalgam of. Now that Necromancy and Obtenebration are the same the discipline and the original Disciplines of the Kiasyd were Mytherceria, Obtenebration and Necromancy, before the revision that is.
Lucita is not finaldeath. I need help trying to figure out where she is.
She's mentioned in the Sabbat book as being one of the few Archbishops left that holds Territory, still ruling over Madrid after taking it from her sire.
@@VoivodeMekhet is the final answer…. ahe is holding territory fir the chamarilla in Madrid in v5 ?
I was totally fine with the Lasombra rewrite as well. I think most people who critique the (so called) “changes” overlook a lot of information given through the years about the clan and stick to their (often not really correct) memory of the stereotypical Sabbat mob and Machiavellian manipulators they remember from their games back in the days… Both versions are not wrong, they certainly do exist, but the Clan can be and is so much more.
The change of the bane is pretty much just a change of what is common and what is the exceptional. There was a Lasombra specific advantage, that made the vampires mirror image not suddenly disappear, but slowly age and rot away. It always reminded me of the Picture of Dorian Gray (and Gray would be such a brilliant Lasombra Character imo). And I vaguely remember other merits and flaws that effected a Lasombras weakness as well. Not to forget the Laibon Legacy of Lasombra descendance that does not lose their reflections at all. If you just declare those variants to be the default and the total loss of the reflection (represented by fitting flaws that already exist in V5) as the exception, nothing has changed at all.
The unification of Obtenebration and Necromancy in to Oblivion is, imo, more a reveal, that these powers are actually related, then a change. Much like Protean and Serpentis. The thing is that in the WoD cosmology several different metaphysical places are called the Abyss. I witnessed that people who are not okay with the fusion have often a specific understanding what the Obtenebration Abyss is and is not, while even in game most Lasombra weren’t really able to locate or identify it. In my headcanon the Sea of shadows, a part of the underworld, and the Lasombra Abyss can totally be the same thing. As Matthew Dawkins aka the Gentleman Gamer once described it, one is about the things in the underworld, the other is about the stuff the underworld is made off. The mentioned reveal may happened, when the Harbingers of skulls and Kiasyd noticed the suspicious similarities of the life sucking energies used for Obtenebration and Necromancy, while just the tradition, how oblivion was used by Lasombra and Cappadocians/Giovanni/Hecata, was what let it appear to be different disciplines. And only few people through history had ever the opportunity to noticed that it is actually the same. Much like Protean and Serpentis and Thaumaturgy and Quietus.
The shift to the Camarilla is in my eyes super consequential and maybe the most “lasombra like” thing ever happened in the history of the game. They are manipulators, when the Sabbat decided to fight its crusade, they realized that they are forced to either give up on everything they achieved to probably die in a far away land, or to lose the majority of people they are used to manipulate. It is much like the Tzimisce who realized that they need to give up on their beloved possessions, they are basically chained to (love the new bane of the dragons). Which leads to the interesting situation, that both founding clans of the Sabbat had the biggest interest to leave the very sect they are nearly exclusively associated with.
To switch to the camarilla made super-duper sense, since the sect went back to a feudal hierarchy the Lasombra were used to control back in the dark ages. The Sects rejection of technology seams also suspiciously handy for a clan that has problems with dealing with such things while being a powerhouse if it comes to dealing with people, either socially or physically in real life. One might think that some… advisor of the Camarilla who made this decision happen might be of the Antitribu variety of the Schadows, who coincidentally came up with this idea, long before anyone could have guessed that the main clan will ever come to knock at the doors. Or was it a coincidence? We will probably never know.
The two Lasombra characters I came up with immediately when I read the V5 version are a catholic priest, who still works as such, but understands himself now as god’s chosen monster, who has a secret identity as basically Daredevil with fangs and a much darker moral system. The second is a young student nurse, who is actually a good person but a goth kid and socially awkward. That lead to the situation that her sire thought she would be a psychopathic “Angel of Mercy” who murdered some patients while she actually was not. But being a goth kid, she embraced her vampire existence very quickly but needs to deal with the ruthlessness and “inner darkness” of the Lasombra in her own way. Have not played them yet but would love to in the future.
Given that the Collapse of the Sabbat made no sense, and the complete removal of paths, indeed, the introduction of a morality system incapable of supporting them, makes it clear they where off screened because they had no plans for them at all (what happens now, with the multiple changes in management is any ones guess) and then, to top it all, the Camarilla also acting like total idiots, to allow the Anarchs to ascend to the throne unopposed was insane,. also the transformation of the Tzim from mystics, mad scientists and trans-humanists, into weird territorial gangrel with dominate instead of fortitude was completely baffling, and destroys what made them interesting, then we get this utter betrayal and defilement of the Lasombra, the blind hatred of the devs is clear, they hate VtM, they hate the fans, and they hate the setting, every book they publish, every interview makes this hatred more and more clear,
@@justicar5 Wow, you really sound like a totally balanced and sane person who totally knows what he is talking about. I need to totally change my mind because your nuanced and well measured comment convinced me. Thank you for sharing your totally flawless opinion.
Just to be sure, you know what sarcasm is, do you?
@@theOriginalS.P. I do Indeed know what sarcasm is. No comment I could have made would have changed your mind, you already declared that anyone who didn't agree with you didn't know the lore, and that all the changes were great, so your mind was closed on the subject anyway. I mean the nonsensical drivel about the Sabbat at the start of your post made that clear
@@theOriginalS.P. Bro..., im sane and all you have to do is a little research and u will understand why the V5 core book exists. I'm not gonna do it for you, but it was a cash grab from the parent company, using ALL the art and half done writing plus a ton of assets that they inherited from the cancelled MMO, spread out into those weird book games that came out and the insane RECALLED Anarch & Camarilla books (and of course the core book which is why everything feels all disjointed. A ton of holes had to be filled in by ppl unfamiliar with the lore). They were weird, bc they were part of a cannibalized story from the MMO "ACTUAL WW" put all there money into. I mean shit, the 2016/2017 documentary has a ton of art for the MMO right there in the background in the "V5 books" that was claimed as concept art for the MMO in the doc. Once Modiphius basically was handed the reins recently, they're actually TRYING to right the ship, but why even fuck with it, when u have the real shit behind it with real love and planned out lore past 2e.
Notice Bloodlines 2 is dead quiet also after firing the OGs. Same kind of shit. Do the research. Shit was half baked from the beginning and your swallowing shit out of desperation. Just like ppl defending Disney Star Wars till they couldn't anymore, and realized IT WAS HALF BAKED FROM THE BEGINING. Hey, I think it sucks too. Cyberpunk 2077. SAME. What a time to be alive.
@@briankeys5941 I am well informed about pretty much everything about VtM since second edition (yes, that is how old I am!) Including V5 since its first announcement and the event in berlin. And I actually work in the industry (won’t go into detail, because I will not poison the relationship to possible projects and clients but believe me, I am aware). As far as I can tell with my knowledge and experience, your observations are mostly right but you make the wrong conclusions. The way you can tell your self is by looking at your last sentence. You throw Star Wars, Cyberpunk and VtM in to one bucked and call it “all the same” while each of this property suffers by very different problems and the backstory how they got there is totally different. The only thing they have in common is, that they were a disappointment for a big part of the fan community.
I think what you overestimate is how small RPGs are. If you are not D&D you can barely make money out of it. That makes RPGs a very poor target for cash grabs. No one who just want the money would even try to resurrect this property. But do you know who would? Actual fans would. And that was part of the problem.
So, let me tell you what imo actually happened to V5. It ultimately started with a huge mismanagement by the “new White Wolf” Team. I am pretty sure that you are aware of all the backlashes and controversies they faced in the early stages of the project that ultimately lead to WW being destroyed and reintegrated into paradox. That happened, because the team mismanaged the IP and cost paradox money. They totally underestimated what managing such an influential IP means in times of social media, I guess. If you are familiar with the game and the industry and the “art” of game designing, you can tell, that they actually putt a lot of thought and love for details and previous editions into V5. Something your average cash grabber would not do. Someone who just grabs the money don't develope a new system. He just repaints what is already there and you are good to go (and if they would have done that, like V20 did, the backlesh would probably not have been that bad).
But beyond that, the team was simply overwhelmed with the situation and the backlashes up to the point where the paradox CEO pulled the plug.
All the MMO art you mentioned was part of the deal with CCP. You have to know, art is one of the most expensive parts of RPGs. But it is also important. Even so important that some designers and publishers recommend to better put no art in your game than bad art. But the IP alone will have cost paradox an arm and a leg and a first born. Sitting on boxes and boxes full of unused, nice looking art for the IP you are working on and not using it would have been simply insane from a commercial standpoint.
Let us talk about Lasombra, because this video is about them. They are actually from Chicago by night, which is not a Paradox/WW book but a licensed one done by Onyx Path Publishing. It is unusual to let a third party company develop such an important aspect of your game instead of making it inhouse and just let the other company use it. I know, that OPP had to fight to be allowed to put the Lasombra in Chicago by night, because they thought, that Chicago needs them and they don’t wanted to leave the Lasombra characters out. An example what happens when they do that is in “Let the streets run red” where OPP decided to rather consider all Ravonos character to be caitiff, because they weren’t allowed to make rules for them. At that point, Modiphius was in charge of development. Long story short, with OPP was yet another party involved, but fortunately one that is known to handle the IP well. You like V20? The developers are the same guys and girls!
Let’s talk about Modiphius for a moment. Do you remember that they delayed the announced V5 Players Guide for long over a year? (probably not, because you don’t seem to be interested in V5). If someone tried to press money out of the VtM IP it was Modiphius. I don’t blame them for that. RPGs are expensive to make but hard to sell. Every compony tries to make as much money out of that as they can, just to end up even (and that was ultimately where new WW probably failed). But Modiphius started to release expensive but ultimately useless stuff instead of developing the actual game further. And the only thing they actually did, the players guide was such badly received by paradox and playtesters, that it never saw the light of day and moved paradox to pull the property again in to inhouse development. (Thay also did Fall of London under license before, but that was a different situation and Fall of London is, well, not exactly a good book). Another thing you don’t do, if you just want to make money out of it. Which is, btw, how CCP handled things when they owned VtM and WoD. They just let OPP do, basically what ever they wanted, rarely intervened and just cashed in the license-money (that is, how a cash grab looks like!).
Very long story short: what you end up with is, an actually good product, made by fans who unfortunately overestimated their ability to manage the thing, that got pushed around for a while but is now back on trek with a team, that contains both, veterans as well as people from the V5 developer team as well as completely new faces. To put that much afford in continuing a failed IP (commercially failed, not failed because it is bad on its own) you need to have actual love for it, otherwise, you just sell the IP to someone else and run away with the money as fast as you can.
I'm still running v20 because I have no practical incentive not to but if I ran v5 I'd probably downplay the lasombra defection as a minority defection into a substantive anti group. Basically lasombra like most clans have a defector group in other sects but are still majority Sabbat.
I'd also re-seperate obtenerbration and necromancy because the fusion is a total mess and badly conceived.
You should totally stay with V20 if that makes you happy. It's an awesome storyline and a great system. They're still putting out new stuff for it and everything. I think that the V5 storyline and the v20 storylines are the biggest difference between the two systems. The Sabbat are on highly shaking ground right now in v5 and I do not think that the Lasombra or the Tzimisce truly fit into the narrative anymore. We'll see when that book comes out soon ;)
@@VoivodeMekhet I've been trying to re-write fluff issues to synergise better with the 3rd/20th fluff. So far I've only had to make one major retcon a lot of times it feels like I'm putting the spit and polish that should have been done in v5's development cycle.
For example clan heceta is a lot more disjointed in my fluff. More a series of non aggression pacts and a compromise so everyone gets the prestige of being a clan. The cappadocians will not be breaking bread with the giovanni anytime soon, no one likes the naraja and everyone fears the harbingers.
Plus I gave the anarchs coherent political structures and laws. If they're going to be a big boy sect they have to have put big boy pants on, you can't just cosplay as antifa and call the prince a fascist because you're not allowed in elysium.