"Camera Reviews Need to Change": Our Thoughts
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Gerald Undone sparked a great discussion about camera press events and reviews. Tony and Chelsea Northrup talk about theirs experiences as reviewers and add to a discussion that's long overdue. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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All I want is a perfect camera... All I want is a perfect camera...
Is it weird that I’m hearing the camera conspiracy theme song?
@@velvetrooster5569 No, it`s just about as weird as hearing a solution from the ones that are part of the problem.
@@brugj03 in some sense, I tend to agree. but at least he was VERY (offensively sometimes) honest and that's something. although his running joke on slo-mo running across the road and 3d pop kinda annoying sometimes but some people ACTUALLY need it and want it.
@@muhammadrayhanfirdaus1309 I don`t mean him, i mean everybody else who seem racing toward some kind of redemption.
Ridiculous really, if you gather how long this is going on already.
@@brugj03 really sorry for misunderstanding your reply. Agreed on that one, I mean I haven't seen any reviewer roasted the S9 like Kasey. Frankly it's just bad time, with somewhat bad camera (I really like the form factor though, so small), and bad PR problems.
Tony constantly counting his fingers is what I'm here for :))
you mister IPhonedo and Gerald are a beacons of hope in keeping those companies in check. Thank you for exposing insta360's practices. This S9 release impressed me by the sheer number of "Kyoto videos" from even very small channels. They are not the only ones to be fair. On Sony's ZV-E1's event I recall seeing influencers that didn't even care about the camera features they just talked about some random bullet points and straight said "this camera is sick, get one". This is another concerning trend replacing actual testers and reviewers for influencers with followers in the literal sense.
Gotta keep track of those points 🤚
😂👌🏾
should hire body languange expert on this...
When you shoot videos that are this long it's not in a single take. You have points that you want to put out there and if you relying on memory then you will use fingers or something like that to remember... Who knows he could have taken 20 takes to just bring that one point across. Sometimes I might shoot for 2 hours just to get the intro to a video on the page I want to have it... It's terrible for editing too because you need to rewatch all that tape.
Great discussion! 👍
You should make a response video to this video and we can get the photography drama rolling. Let’s spice up the community; together we can. They were totally wrong and I am totally on your side Gerald. Time to get them undone.
Go roast their studio Gerald! :)
Gerald is just trying to hurt his competitors. The reviews were overwhelmingly critical and very detailed and based. I love how he said he "won't be as nice" aka he does exactly what he tried to torch others for. Camera trips serve a purpose to remove rumors, to have experts discuss pros and cons, and that helps not just having the company. Gerald thought he was too cool for school, could go on every trip, and he found out that isn't the case. He's not virtuous here.
Gerald, you have started a great discussion, and the more people who will join the discussion "agree or not", it still means that nothing should be left untouched !
there's never been any "discussion" for someone with at least a half of the brain, but thanks Gerald for taking the point to the masses, nice trolling... )))
Does putting out a review early help a TH-cam Channel? YES. Do some companies shadow ban reviewers for negative reviews? YES. Does this position which reviewers are put in incentivize *some* reviewers to be carful about what they say (depending on how established that reviewer is)? YES -Gerald recognizes this as in issue that "needs to change," its really not controversial imo 😉
and in case of other tech brands, they may even just "ban" you from loans/cooperations.
There is a real conflict of interest
I don't think the bias is the issue. I just don't think there is any value in a review from someone who's used a camera for a few hours.
First impression at most from something like that.
@@Roy88772 Why though? I want to know what it's like after using it, not when you first take it out of the box. There's no use in a review after just taking it out of the box.
I don't think there is any value from someone who just read spec sheets :p
@@williamshakespeare9815 exactly. most reviewers have so little time with the camera it's not a real review
That’s one of the reasons I like Jared Polin, he’s honest about a first opinion vs after using in the real world for a while. He also actually shows his work. Lots of TH-camrs never actually show their work.
Look to the restrictions on gifts in the medical community to understand bias and ethics. Gerald is right. About time someone stated this. I prefer the “I’ve had this camera for 6 months and these are my thoughts” reviews. Most influencers just regurgitate specs on the launch.
Gerald will be right when he Buys or Rent gear out of pocket. Until then, he is hardly right.
@@natureredux1957Lmao this the second comment I’ve seen from this account. Your dislike and bias is very apparent.
After he has enjoyed all benefits. This is called hypocrisy.
@@natureredux1957Exactly.
@@MrGone60 Bias of what exactly.
Stay loyal to photographers, not camera companies. Don’t let these companies manipulate you…make no mistake, you are being manipulated.
Well being manipulated literally cuts both ways.
But staying loyal to a photographer isn’t being manipulated also ? Goes both ways.
There's been zero customer service for the last 35 years.
There's no manipulation cause they went with the policy of don't speak to the customers.
Why do you need a review when every new camera is OBVIOUSLY DESIGNED TO BE an improvement over the last?
The public must STOP getting distracted by the manufacturers lifestyle and start thinking like a camera operator and builder of a set or collection with a collection or preservation of photographs.
You're supposed to be doing PHOTOGRAPH PRESERVATION REVIEW videos NOT CAMERA JUDGEMENT MATERIALS VIDEOS.
YOU capture the light stored objects.
Forget about the cameras!
Concentrate on your future collections. Sets of cameras.
Sets of photographs.
Sets of large photographs.
Storage cabinets with thousands of images stored in them.
Right now, you're bamboozled by the life of manufacturers.
They distract you thousands of times and you've wasted decades out of your life worrying about plastic and dials and buttons.
You're PATHETIC.
YOU'RE a person who's EASILY distracted by the manufacturers lifestyle.
You need to stop looking at what they're doing and start looking at what you're doing and go in that direction.
👍💯
7:17 Man, as a photographer watching camera reviews I never used to think about this, big camera companies just felt like faceless corporations. But now as an engineer, I can totally relate to how difficult that is to see your product get ripped apart. However, that kind of brutally honest feedback is the most important information you can get so that you can iterate on the design and fix issues. I have made so many design oversights that I wouldn't have figured out to change if I didn't get feedback (albeit sometimes harsh) from the end users. So not only are those reviews important for consumers to make informed purchasing decisions, but they're also important to the design process. So hopefully those engineers don't take it too personally.
Hi Kyle!! Thanks for the perspective!
As long as its getting ripped apart fairly! Most people probably work for a camera company at some point because they like photography and cameras, so its more than just EXTERNAL people that are going to test and prod and probe, but companies don't really have a voice externally, thats the biggest power play youtubers have, they can say what they want about a company and the company has to have 40+ lawyers check before sending a hello world email.
I like to see the reviews of new cameras just to see the latest features. Won’t buy a LUMIX but watched the reviews anyway to see if there are any new attributes. Good for the reviewers if they get free trips as long as they are honest. One of my favorite reviewers did a review on the new camera and did not mention the cold shoe.
Good video.
I want both - initial reactions and production reviews, properly labeled.
Camera manufacures often change things after launch. The price may go down, and firmware updates may improve handling capabilities.
I always adore the positive attitude and chill of you two. It also adds a lot of rhetorical objectivity.
Go to the events. Everything you have issues with can be covered by thorough disclosure and a 'impressions' - 'review' structure to the content like one of my favourite reviewers, Flossy Carter. Do initial impressions at the event then follow up with a real review of the retail units.
It's one of the things that I like that Gerald, Chris and Jordan do well, of distinguishing an "early look or preview" when press event takes place, and only after final product gets released and proper time is spent to use it, the final review comes out.
do what you want to do. It is your business and how you operate your business is up to you. All this self flagellation is really getting old. One TH-camr came out with a video and everyone is hurrying up to flog themselves over the reviews. Truth is most of us couldn't possibly care less. Most reviews give a couple nuggets of info, most also have an element of entertainment and none should be the singular datapoint for purchasing any piece of gear. I think a lot of TH-camrs are really taking themselves too seriously and inflating their own importance. It is simply not a big deal.
Many said it about Gerald.
I have seen a video about this issue where the person mentioned when they chose Gerald as gatekeeper.
Who are you calling out and who are you defending? Tony and Chelsea are giving feedback from personal experience and the go out in the field using gear unlike Gerald. Gerald is the one that was banned from the Lumix event and he went after Lumix and the TH-camrs that went to Japan. Are you defending that scammer?
No one cares how many color boards Gerald films he has no real world professional experience and it shows when he reviews cine gear. No professional values anything that Gerald says.
@@contentm3893 scammer? He told that he could create this video in the past but he didn’t do it because of brands. Yeah, they giving shit feedback from 10 minutes with camera and didn’t see any flaws because people maybe don’t buy it and brands will be sad. They are scammers.
@@contentm3893 I was saying everyone needs to do what they do best for their business and not get tied up in knots over what someone else said. Since the one guy posted a video about the trips and pressure to make positive reviews, there have been a number of videos posted from various accounts either defending the practice or calling those who accept trips to press events shills. At the end of the day, all the bigger channels who get invited are running a business and need to make decisions which are best for their business. No need to justify it, no need to beat yourself up over it, no need to beat someone else up over it. I wasn't attacking anyone specifically or defending anyone specifically and I won't be baited into calling out names. At the end of the day, people need to operate their business as they see fit. Customers (viewers and sponsors) will be the ultimate judge if those decisions were right or wrong.
Launch ‘reviews’ for all products not just cameras are utterly useless and mostly are just regurgitated specs lists. I wait for people who buy the thing and review after using it for a bit.
I appreciate channels that give you ALL the pros and cons of a camera in different use cases, with real world examples of what can be achieved. Then leaving it to you to weigh those up and decide what will work for you. From a very satisfied M43 user.
I think the best thing is reviewing early but making it clear that problems could be fixed by production time.
Bias isn't just ignoring what's bad because you think you should. But the whole experience takes you to a positive state of mind where you will feel lighter and more positive because you will feel so good and happy during these trips.
The same can be said if the paid trip is a horrible experience, you're likely to be more negative in your review. This is basic human nature.
Therefore, on these trips there should be no reviews, only FIRST IMPRESSIONS.
Something I would see as less biased would be if the reviewer recognized that not everyone has the same needs. I do literally not ONE SECOND of video, I only take still photos. But when I watch reviews, half of them are preoccupied with video capabilities, sound, etc. There also seems to be some sort of fetish about faster lenses these days. I shoot from 5.6 to 11 nearly all the time, so why do I need a 1.2 ? Anyway, if I ever start reviewing my angle will be: if you do video, don't even watch my review, as I know very little about it. But on the rest of it, I can indeed point out that while a given camera or lens is ideal for me, it might not be for someone who primarily shoots sports or wildlife, while noting that I am going to be shooting architecture on a tripod using manual focus meaning I also am rarely concerned with bokeh.
Anyone that actually been using Cameras over the years can find VALUE in ANY type of review. Those they can't are usually the very same people that claim Gear Doesn't matter. So they won't see any value regardless. We already know that the first reviews will just be anyone's first impression and if a person can't figure that out, well just maybe that person won't figure much more in a deeper review. Regardless of whom makes it.
Thank you.
@natureredux1957 Whom? Regardless of who makes it. Regardless of whom it was made for.
One of the best reply I found about this issue.
No that's just TH-cam reviews. Most are biased and lazy. People in the real world will order what they want based on what the new camera offers. The sheep are swayed by negative biased reviews. Look at the Gh7 reviews. Everyone acts like that camera is better than the FX30 or Canon R5 but it is not. No one should invest in M4/3 unless they already have one. That's not the story that anyone will talk about.
Gerald U. was spot on. This whole Panasonic S9 show by those who were wined and dined in Osaka really opened my eyes. Even people I have until now held in high esteem, and who I thought to be credible. I won't name names. The S9 is so lame and crippled. And I am a Panny Boy user and somewhat of a fan.
Gerald was not spot on. Mostly because he's the Real Problem. The very BRAND Gerald supports the most has been FRONT and center at doing exactly what he claims to be Wrong. Even more so with those that Review Sony products.
Gerald has been wined and dined from Sony for the longest time. That’s why Gerald has nothing better to say about Blackmagic, Canon, Panasonic, Fuji, or Nikon compared to his Sony reviews…. Check out all of Gerald’s reviews of other cameras (any brand other than Sony) and then look at Gerald’s Sony reviews. Totally Sony bias lol
Personally, I dont think its an issue. Its marketings job to get people excited for a camera. And just because they didnt invite Gerald, doesnt mean that the people they invited have lower morals. Maybe they just thought, it woulnt appeal to him, but it would appeal to others.
For example, if I review toys. I love the more Transformers, but am really critical of Transformers that dont transform. Would hasbro be wrong to exclude me from their event showcasing non-transforming Transformers?
I dont think so, because its not meant for me... even though there are plenty of people that will enjoy it.
So willing to wait! There is a lack of considered reviews, but I’ll watch both if you do both reviews. Initial impressions and then an actual review
Sometimes I wait for a new camera, and maybe even preorder. So I want at least "first impression" reviews from the people I trust and can relate to.
Then there can be a more in depth review later.
But thats exactly the problem right? You want fully fleshed out reviews you can trust. Not pre-production previews that have been rushed out as soon as the embargo is lifted after only spending a couple hours with the camera.
Especially when so frequently more issues are found after pre-orders are placed when more rigorous reviews and testing are completed.
The problem isn’t that the reviewers aren’t trust worth. The problem is the hype bubble that is created by the wave of mostly positive videos all hitting at once on embargo day.
Clearly go to the events. I saw Gerald's video but found the reviews useful at the events. They have helped me make a purchasing decision.
The thing I noticed with the S9 reviews was the ones I saw didn’t seem to mentioned they got flown to Japan using other people’s money.
@@SonyAlphaVisions difference is there was a legal obligation to disclosure they were given free
Airfare and possibly accommodation. They didn’t do that.
Really enjoying this discussion. I watched Gerald's video and Dan Watson's. Thanks guys! Those press trips are more entertainment for me. I like seeing you guys meet up with other fellow TH-camrs. Getting a first look at a new product I’m interested in is also cool. I still remember the EOS R press trip. I was so excited, I had been waiting for that camera for so long. The videos are fun to watch but that’s it.
One of the more refresing snow ball topics going around in the camera community as of late. I loved GU's take and i love this one as well. You've both inspired me to put my thoughts down on video! Cheers!
This is probably a genius move of Panasonic. Maybe inadvertently. Huge hype and controversy and everyone is talking about Panasonic who do in fact make some brilliant cameras but they seem to underdogs, probably due to bad autofocus which they have now fixed. It also makes people think about all these reviewers which seem to not really pay as much attention to Panasonic over some of the other manufacturers. I think the S9 has some cool properties. Panasonic's IBIS is brilliant. It's full frame so quality of video and photos will be high. The LUTS make it easy for non technical people to create looks. People will be able to easily create great looking photos and videos with this camera that would have been much harder a few years ago.
Oh boy. You guys as well.
It's trending 🤣
Maybe cos it’s relevant to their channel or content? 😂
@@joits one of the reasons viewers are losing trust for the camera community is because they're reactive to what draws views. Just like with the "I quit videos" at the beginning of the year.
In you expect opinion is a high zoom canon Sx70 a good high zoom camera? Thanks
The solution to the dilemma seems simple: Just put out both a "first impression" video from the event along with affiliate links for those that buy everything day one and then a "X months later" video (with X>=3) for the sane among us that want a thorough review of a production model and will not buy before a product has either proven itself or initial issues ironed out.
Hello and thank you for your nice clips I learn a lot of both of you , I have a question and unfortunately no one answer me can you help me please? I have Sony a7Rv for photography which creative look I have to use? Or which one is good for wildlife photography? Please let me know , thank you so much, ❤ from England
Just use the standar picture profile and edit to your liking in post
You are were you are due to honesty. And we value this, and we thanks this.
It happens that I buy a product purely based on rumors. I order it as soon as the link is available and then I start to view the reviews. If the reviews are really bad, then I might cancel my order. However I sometimes also buy something that is released a while back. In that case I base my decision more on the actual option and use of the experts. A few months back I bought my first video camera, the FX-3, and my opinion was not based on a single review but I know a lot of people use this camera a lot and love it for their daily work. That tells me more than a review of 15 minutes.
The part I enjoy the most about those pre production reviews is sometimes the the prospective the specific reviewer brings to that product helps drive my initial hype and follow through. If it was not for those reviews I would stumble upon the next model rather then anticipate a specific fix or advancement I have come to settle for in an older version or model.
Every new review of the a7r5 from people that got invited to the sony event ignored the noise performance issue even though it's the same image censor as the a7r4 which everyone complained about the noise. Every single one. When the camera finally was fully released, people started to find out about it. same thing about the A9III dynamic range (its a global shutter cmon). Or how they didnt talk about how 80% of the lenses would not support higher than 15fps on the A9III. Pretty glaring things that just happen to be omitted by the early access youtubers. Oh and none of them also tested the camera with third party lenses.
The Komodo is a global shutter and no issues with dynamic range. The people reviewing the A9III didn't all go to the Sony event.
@@contentm3893 I know not all the reviewers that reviewed it went to the sony event, I am saying out of all of the ones that did go to the sony event, none of them discussed it.
All of the reviews i saw on the a9iii at the event did mention the likelihood of a dynamic range hit, but were also clear on it being only an assumption, as they weren't in a position to properly test it.
@@kevinbecker5440 TH-camrs that didnt discuss dynamic range or test it in their initial review: Manny Ortiz, Jarred Poland,
Matti Haapoja, Christopher Frost, Stefan Malloch, PM-R TV, Dan Watson, London Camera Exchange.
The bigger problem is almost nobody tested it with Third Party lenses or cover that over 80% of the lenses do not support higher than 15fps when the main advertising point of the camera is its ability to shoot 120fps.
My comment still stands.
@@DavidVTH-cam the only one of them i really follow is Christopher frost, and i can't recall him ever doing a dynamic range tests. I'm also pretty confident jarred wouldn't disregard the 3rd party lens restriction due to bias.
Some camera equipment takes a long time to ship after it is announced, in that case early reviews are invaluable in helping me decide if I should preorder one. I can take any review in the light of under what circumstances it was done, so long as the reviewer discloses that. So yes, please continue doing early reviews whenever you have the opportunity.
I wanted to point out that if some video title is like "my honest review" - you can TRUST that!
🙂
all i want is the perfect camera ...all i want is the perfect camera ... yeah im trolling but hey you made some good points but my issue is people tend to react when some on e makes a good point critting the camera then everyone change there tune...so this 4th wall stuff should be up front or reviews become an echo chamber
They are helpful. But, the choice is up to you. I appreciate your honesty in your reviews.
I think the events and coverage of them still has value. Both entertainment value and a preview value. But I think it's key to be transparent about what they are, to acknowledge potential biases, and to understand that they're not really valid as standardized unbiased reviews. I think probably the best solution would be to separate the terminology of a preview and a review, if you're getting to see a camera early at one of these events it's a preview, if you've gotten to live with it for awhile and use it in your home setup scenarios then it might be valid as a review. And I would say if you're wanting to be taken seriously as a channel you should offer both if it is economically feasible. Give me the tech circus, then give me to the three/six month review, you can even reference back to the pre-launch events in your reviews and see if they've upheld their promises. In most other industries it's valid to make these distinctions, why should it be any different with camera gear.
This is interesting for me, but I only ever buy used cameras that have been thoroughly tried and tested. Why would I need anything more for portraits and people photography.?
The only issue is how to label those videos where the TH-camr is offered a trip to review some camera ... It should state clearly it is a sponsored vidéo by that maker ... Simple 😉
There's a definite difference between "we will fly you on this press junket" and "we will pay you to create sponsored content"
Especially if (and I can totally see this happening, being self employed myself) its costing them money to be there...
If I got invited to go to a conference somewhere, and my hotel/travel/food was covered, if I'm taking time off work to do that, then even if you take the entire cost of the experience, I'm probably loosing money...
I'm not saying they should not disclose the trip being paid for, I just think its disingenous to say its the same as sponsored content...
It is not sponsored as they did not pay you to make the video. There is no contract with counter prestation.
@@angeloplayforone To comply with guidelines and maintain transparency, the TH-camr should:
Disclose the provided flight and hotel in the video, verbally or in text.
Use TH-cam’s built-in tools to mark the video as containing a paid promotion or sponsorship.
Be clear and transparent about the nature of the relationship with the camera maker, regardless of the existence of a contract or obligation to publish.
These practices are in line with FTC guidelines and TH-cam policies, ensuring viewers are informed about any potential influence on the content.
@@GemmaHentsch It is still a material connection that need to be addressed clearly to the audience ... Contract or not
@@yvesleroy5740 All of who went to the S9 has said that before the video. Which one did not do that?
Great pros and cons discussion.
Why would a reviewer would need to go on a trip when they only run tests in the studio and not in the field? lol
Yes, Gerald is not a photographer or videographer so he needs his studio and cameraman
@@angeloplayforone Right! So what's the problem? It seems like he has beef with Panasonic. lol
I love to see you go to these because I like to see people I trust giving the reviews of the gear.
No replacement would be cuter than Chelsea.
I don't buy very many things as new. Being the youngest of 7 kids, you become accustomed to "used," or at least "no longer the most recent" tech. I avoided Windows 11 until I built a computer a few months ago for photo editing...with older tech and even a used GPU. I just upgraded to mirrorless and bought a used Z6.
I'm willing to wait to buy something until it's been broken in a little. The Z6 has had several firmware upgrades, and for the kind of photography I do, it performs really well, especially for the $500-ish I paid. I didn't watch reviews that were released when it hit the market. I watched reviews from a year later and onward, because I'm more interested in how it's holding up.
So, in answer to the question about getting first looks, they don't mean much to me. Yes, first impressions count, but lasting impressions count more, especially for those of us who would rather be impressed than merely wowed.
The absolute first thing that should be included in the review is THE PRICE. If your budget is $1000 no point in you watching 2/3 of the way through a video only to find the item is $5,000. On the other hand, if you're just interested in the 'thing' and have no intention of buying, putting the price first isn't an issue.
Great video as always. I agree with the comments that reviewers should make it absolutely clear they've had their travel, accommodation and meals paid for. After that, we as viewers can make our own judgement on the content. Keep up the good work guys.
Fwiw, I didn't buy a R5C because of the overheating issues highlited by the initial reviews. By the time Canon fixed it I'd bought something else instead, which shows the Importance of these first sample reviews. The message to manufacturers is that claiming the firmware is pre-production doesn't cover up glaring faults, so get your gear up to spec before putting it in the hands of influencers.
Great and timely video. I was particularly concerned recently with the release of the new Panasonic Lumix S9. Very few reviewers were honest about it and pointed out all its flaws and shortcomings. The majority, even those whom I had previously trusted, were all flown out to Osaka in Japan on a free trip and then raved about the camera. Such a poor camera in so many ways and yet most of these reviewers were claiming it was the best thing since sliced bread. For shame. But, you asked the question and my answer is that I would like you to go to these events as yours in one of the channels I do trust.
Magazines tended to be better "reviewers" because there were fewer of them and they put money into testing equipment, and they tended to produce relevant performance numbers.
16:50 The issue there with "personalized training" is that it serves to obscure bad UX/UI design, which is absolutely something that you as a reviewer *should* discover and flag. If the problem you were having was because you didn't know about some obscure flag or setting buried in the menu somewhere, it's still on them, and it's still a bug - it's just a menu/UI design bug rather than a code bug. UI should *make sense*.
the most honest review of a camera is to watch what camera professional photographers use themselves when shooting pictures.
eh... Pro's are often using gear that works well enough but isn't ideal. They often learn to workaround limitations and they'll stick with a brand for their entire career even if another brand might produce better results.
@@TonyAndChelsea Maybe for pros the reason is durability over results? My cameras would likely produce the same results as a pro camera but the build quality is not the same.
Are those types of trips, free gear, etc, considered in kind gifts? Taxable?
the "long term loaner" is abypass to paying taxes.. if it was a gift then taxes need paid, but since its "TECHNICALLY "not a gift, then no taxes. Its like the companies are helping youtubers evade taxes, which sounds like it might not be 100% legal
To the IRS. Everything is taxable.
I am not a tax adviser, but those are job related items.
The value of a "long-term loaner" would be the cost of renting the same equipment for the same length of time. Taxable.
Depends in which country you are.
Gerald definitely sparked a larger conversation...how many people have been able to make a video about this since his video launched!?
Pre-production vs. Production...honestly, I really want to hear the review of the camera/lens/gear that I can go to the store and buy right after watching the review. Hearing about 'glitches' that won't exist when I can get my hands on the camera are a bit moot.
Do I like watching press event videos...kind of, it depends on the information. It also depends on the conditions, if the company 'stacks the location' like Tony said, am I getting a 'real world' view of the camera that I might purchase?
Nice new glasses Tony!
Really interesting video! Sort of a behind the scenes about "reviewer content creation"
I personally like to review cameras and mics after I’ve thoroughly used them in real world situations. Rode just sent me the Wireless Pro for review and it’s been good so far, but there are details that needs to be worked out. However, Rode has always been great about taking my criticism and did not limit me on how I can test their products. They just send me gears and let me go do what I do. Some gears they sent, I didn’t even review because there were so many reviewers saying the same thing I was going to say. So, I just sent Rode a Google Doc with all my notes and comments.
I've always been too broke to preorder but enjoy the reviews. Love Gerald and you guys.
Keep attending events and sharing your insights, highlighting both the positives and areas for improvement. After first edition, review and compare findings. Consumers need this information to make informed decisions. if the company complains or bans you, it indicates they may not be worth purchasing from.
Great video as always. Y really trust you guys. The feeling of trust I had it before this video. As a viewer one can feel if the reviewer is bieng honest or not. I have always felt you guys are. Thank you
i agree, great points!
This was a thoughtful discussion. I would prefer you get your hands on a final production product. That's what I would buy at the store. If I need early information, I can just look at a spec sheet or a press release for basic information. The value of these reviews is to learn how well (or not) a given set of features performs in real life. You can't get that from a press release. In short, it's best to wait.
As long as you disclose the fact that you are paid to review than all is fine, the problem is with reviewers who somehow forget to mention it. Just to be clear being given a flight, food and hotel, is being paid.
I think the perspective needs to change from "camera review", to "camera firmware review". So it's not that you need to choose when to review the camera, whether it's preproduction, beta firmware, firmware 1.0 or firmware 4.0, it's you should evolve the review at different points within the camera's life span and review them separately while noting which firmware you are reviewing.
For example, the Blackmagic URSA 12K (non-OLPF) was two different cameras over it's lifetime. The first version was prior to Firmware 7.7 which was released in December 2021 and Firmware 7.7 onwards. From 7.7, it was a totally different camera image-wise, like night and day difference.
So it's valuable to review it within both of it's life spans because people who planned on buying it prior to 7.7 would benefit and people who plan on buying it at 7.7 or afterwards would also benefit.
It's like creating a biography movie of an actor, you need to choose what version of that actor you want to portray. Some movies portray the "before they got famous" and some focus on their prime years and some focus on their winding down years.
The same should be for caemras or tech in general.
the problem is the fact that it's being called as a review in the first place. it would be named "preview" or "first impression".
Press trips are fine. But I would rather see videos and reviews that aren’t rushed and overly glowing and based on pre-production gear.
I think I speak for a lot of consumers of the content and equipment when I say that Gerald’s video really spoke to a feeling of fatigue we have with regards to this sequence:
Embargo lifts > 100 Videos post that are largely positive > Preorders > full reviews that uncovers and better explains the limitations and issues with the equipment
With the S9 as an example, the amount of cope regarding the insane recording limits was bizarre. It’s 2024, a 15 minute record limit is insane, even if the camera is designed for Gen Z content creators that should be an unacceptable oversight that shouldn’t be explained away as “Oh they may fix that with firmware” or “My wife didn’t even notice that there was a record limit”. Even the point of just kind of mentioning in passing that there isn’t a headphone jack - that is important to draw attention to. Seriously.
I don’t think people intend to mislead or anything, but it becomes misleading for the consumers who are taking in the totality of the event through the various channels. I think it’s fine to go to events, but the industry standard for reviewers should be to hold off on previewing or reviewing these cameras until after they have had the time to do the job right. Because for every Tony and Chelsea or Jordan and Chris, there are 8 other reviews coming out that are just serving to build premature hype and feed GAS.
I went to a famous restaurant in Vegas and they kept me waiting for awhile. I complained and they comped all the drinks for my party and any dessert we wanted. I didn't leave a bad review. Bias can be persuaded/bought and it's a part of life. Not controversial at all.
Thanks!
Guys you made all great points. I just happen to be one of those small channels that just got invited to his first press event and unlike you or Gerald's channel I don't have huge funds to invest in purchasing everything that comes out.
And yes, the flew me to the event and paid for my hotel, but it costed me money anyways.
I think those events are helpful because as you mentioned, sometimes you can't afford setup like the ones you get to use in those occasions, but you also talk to other people and share opinions. A colleague may find something you didn't notice, and that makes your first impressions video more complete.
Do I feel I was biased? Not so much, my style has always been calm, analytical, but I never rip apart products, especially because nowadays it's hard to find products that are straight up bad. I love to point out what I think isn't great, but I try to find the reason for it and a potential user target that may take advantage of the thing I didn't like.
That doesn't mean being biased, in my opinion.
I think there's also terminology overlap...
There's a bad review - "They said this frying pan was non stick, I spent 10 minutes scraping burnt bits off" (the product was bad)
There's an unfair review - "They said this frying pan was non stick, provided I hand wash it, I used my dishwasher, and then spent 10 minutes scraping burnt bits off the next time I used it"
There's a review done badly - "They said this frying pan was non stick, I prefer cast iron, it just cooks better... "
The way a company treats the reviewer who delivers a bad review, is a judgement on the company... so if they punish harsh reviewers... then they should be viewed unfavourably...
I think you bring up a great point about bias. People think bias means you get handed a bag of cash and make an overtly unfair opinion. However, bias can be as simple as liking the people you meet from companies. I think the goal isn’t to be “unbiased” (and people who claim to make unbiased reviews aren’t more moral, they just lack insight), but to acknowledge potential biases, document and disclose them and make processes that help to minimize their influence over reporting
Good points.
I only review Camera equipment I use myself. Which at the moment is Sony. I have just swapped my A1 for an A9III for evaluation and learning the latest tech. I am starting to see that the reviews on the A9III were all short term and focus on the 24.6 MP sensor . I am starting to believe the A9III is better than the A1 at least for Birds. Anyway work in progress or just wishful thinking immersing myself in the A9III now !
Best photography channel, barring none!
No man, keep going! Why not? This is work, of course the companies benefit, otherwise they wouldn’t do it!
But it’s an all around great event and keeps us gear heads satisfied!
All best
Great Great discussion
Holy cow. I have to do a portrait shoot for our short film promo tomorrow. So I was brushing up and what kept popping up.. 10 yr old Tony & Chelsea videos, man y'all have come a long way, lol.
We’ve been doing this so long I don’t even remember which videos I’ve made
I don't even read or watch reviews anymore lol. I just get what I want. You can't buy a bad camera these days...(the truth is I can't afford the latest, I swear they keep getting more expensive for not a lot better than the previous model). I found it hilarious when the X100IV was released, ebay was flooded with X100V within minutes. Yet that camera is more than adequate for everyone. I just don't understand it. I just been shooting with old film cameras now 🤣
Yes, this is also one problem with Gerald channel. What is the real live gain if the camera shoots more dynamic range that a human eye can distinguish? That makes that technical feature irrelevant. As Prof. Dr. Gerald undone is not a photographer or videographer he cannot talk about usability.
As Robin Wong said in his blogspot about this issue. If you are a professional photographer it should not take a lot of time to see if a camera is good or bad.
In the case of the Hasselblad X2D, I was ready to buy a "system" after the influencer reviews were out. Problem was: No product, camera or lenses were avaiable to get. Why do the companies hype a product that you can not get. You only get one chance to make a great impression! Did not by the Blad system and I probably never will.
Hahaha. I agree with Tony. 100%
Not all PR and Marketing people are personable, though, Chelsea. Haha. Come on. Many are but not all.
Been following this kind of topic recently and it boggles me how things really need to be labeled to avoid any confusion or bias as much as possible. I agree certain details need to be disclosed for the benefit of potential consumers of new products, like by mentioning that they've been invited to an event and they've received something non-monetary but still of value, whether now or of anticipated future value.
With events providing dibs, exclusivity or any other form of perks, I suggest talking about the products focusing more on the aspects of revelation, features and perhaps anything else that can show us the anticipated value of the product. It's no use "reviewing" something that is still a disclosed prototype, when the manufacturer can say exactly that later on when the negative "reviews" come in, giving manufacturers a valid excuse. This can just be called beta testing instead, or maybe manufacturers need to do more private testing internally before having pros test gear with some sort of expert assistance. When we buy the gear later on, it's not like expert assistance comes with it.
Let's face it. No product or service is truly free because an expense of resources has already occurred to produce such.
I have no experience from the side of manufacturing but I would wonder what their goal is with the events. I mean, genuinely, you would want to sell the products or services you've created, most especially if they provide so much value. So, can we really blame them for trying to use events for such a purpose? Because if this wasn't the intention, what would or should they prioritize then?
And these are my two-cents from the perspective of a prosumer, of little experience I have to admit, but one with still enough experiences to make me want to buy a newer beautiful camera or lens of genuine value. Sorry if this is wordy. I rarely comment tbh.
I feel like most reviewers/influencers disclose that they were invited to the press event in the first few sentences. Usually, they are excited to say they went to said event.
With regard to whether or not I would like for you both to attend more camera press trips, I find myself a trifle conflicted. On the one hand, I appreciate the in-depth reviews you produce from your own research; on the other hand, I also enjoy seeing you both use new products in beautiful locations around the globe. Nevertheless, I must confess that I grow weary of seeing three videos covering one new lens or camera at a time (the preview or first look, official review, and then real world use). I prefer the real world use angle to new products, and, instead of companies flying everyone to the same place, I would suggest a shakeup wherein creators pitch to manufacturers their ideas for showcasing the new product and the company agreeing to facilitate that instead. I think this sort of work is a win-win for brands and creators that keeps partnerships alive while serving audiences something closer to what they want to see from new products.
I like both the pre-release reviews and post-release reviews. I think Phillip Bloom has done this multiple times: he'll revise reviews and iterations (firmware updates) of the gear are released and problems are fixed (or introduced). In the rapid iteration software world we live in, I think this will be the new normal. There will be demand for both reviews. I'm not keen on being a troubleshooting early-adopter, but appreciate those who are. Sneak peaks are nice, but followups on the real-world release and updates are also quite valuable.
Do your best to work within a compromised system; i.e., participate but strive for balance!
I always take camera corporate sponsored events with a 'grain of salt'. I understand the dynamic between the attendee and company. I do like the events though as a hands on first look, but I always wait to purchase until I've seen several detailed independent reviews, including your channel as one. As a result, I never pre-order. BTW, I wish you would put your Columbo jackets on and find out why it is taking Canon so long to ship their lenses. It was last November that Canon released a few RF 200-800 lenses but they still have not shipped in any quantity. My GUESS is that they are releasing a handful before they have completed their manufacturing scale up, in order to string people along (that may sound negative but I simply go by my gut instinct and call it like I see it).
Especially the rumour type channels. The need to have specs etc before the product is actually announced drives me insane. I know strategic “leaks” can drive the hype, but the rumoured R1 has now had resolutions from 24 mpx to 100mpx and people criticised it! It is not even announced yet!
There are plenty of psychological studies on the subject matter and the answer is, yes, it does influence people to be more positive towards the product. Why else would they do these events? They know about this, they use these studies to "optimise" their interactions.
And about the example with obscure settings that lead to worse results: they absolutely should because if such an important setting is buried behind badly explained submenus, then that is on the manufacturer. I don't have a world renowned photographer or a brand x troubleshooter by my side when I use my camera after I bought it and I shouldn't have to watch all reviews to get to the one that explains it to me.
P.S.: I studied Media Studies and my partner is a journalist for a tech magazine (exiting now because of continuously worsening working conditions) and I work with an electronics company in CRM.
I do like the reviews that come out after the camera ships better than the Event reviews but, I watch both 😊
When Top Gun 2 was made, they have a Navy Capt. on site to tell them what they could and couldn't do and flew them in to see the final edits. They put him up at a luxury hotel, he had to check himself out and into a standard hotel his periderm would cover.
Timely subject. I was thinking of this subject very recently as a certain camera maker flew a bunch of reviewers I follow to an exotic location and was provided early access to a new camera. Interestingly, I noticed all of those reviewers basically gave negative reviews, and none recommended the camera.
I’m never first in line. Instead I’m always a year or more behind. As a hobbyist, having the newest is lost on me. That said, I purchase quality equipment that has created a name for itself from actual life in consumer hands. As for the potential biased reviews due to the big events and such I never doubted it for a minute. In fact I would have been surprised if you said the contrary. Perhaps a new business model for new product development could be an NDA based collaboration between reviewers and the brands to work out problems and make design improvements before settling on a production model.
A good video discussion by Tony and Chelsea Northrup. Some observations:
• Consumers are NOT dumb idiots. They watch camera review videos and take them with a pinch of salt. That is why the former Olympus Camera Division failed and had to wind up despite having torrents of flattering TH-cam reviews by dubious unwholesome characters.
• Sometimes the flattering reviews are used by the manufacturer companies to bluff themselves and their parent companies - that all is wonderful. That the useless camera product they made, that no one wants - is the best in the world and will be in high demand.
• Who does not want to be invited for a VERY luxurious and EXPENSIVE trip halfway around the world to an exotic location to do a "camera review"? It probably costs US$100,000 per person to pay for the First Class air tickets, top grade Presidential hotel suites for 1 week, wining & dining at 3 star Michelin restaurants, etc....
• It is basically a pre-paid Bribe with no pre-conditions. So you better say good things about the camera.
• If you do, then you can look forward to future similar Reward Trips every 1 or 2 years.
• If you condemn the camera, you will be disbarred and not be invited in future. All other manufacturers will stay away from you. Suddenly the honest camera reviewer becomes an Outcast. He learns that honesty has a terrible price.
• The other camera reviewers will be frightened by the punishment imposed on the honest reviewer - and they learn to grovel.
• When camera manufacturers do this big budget camera review events - it is a marketing exercise. It is Quid Pro Quo.
I'm glad you guys were professional in regards to Gerald. My question is would his video have been made if he was invited to the Lumix event. And also it's TH-cam, we're going to have "critical reviews" aplenty, I'm happy for some positivity and fun that a press trip brings. Excitement is underrated in some of these scenarios.
Great discussion on the topic. I think you guys should go to the events because a lot of us trust your reviews (if we agree or disagree with the assessment).
Steve Huff did a video on this very topic years before Gerald Undone and his comments about bias and the consequences of telling the truth were prescient. I suggest you look up his video on this topic