We’re Celebrating the Wrong Indie Games
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Are Stray and Dave the Diver even indie games? What's an indie game? If a tree falls in the forest and Dave the Diver gets a Best Independent Game award nomination, can Geoff Keighley hear my screams?
Patreon: patreon.com/pixeladay
Twitter: @pixel_a_day
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Tumblr: @katfrompixeladay
Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/kat0801
Transcript: bit.ly/pixeladay_indiegamestranscript
Introduction (0:00:00)
Dave the Diver (0:01:59)
Stray (0:17:13)
Why It All Matters (0:27:15)
Works referenced at 44:42:
[1] Ruberg, Bonnie. 2019. Video Games Have Always Been Queer. NYU Press.
[2] Shaw, Adrienne. 2014. Gaming at the Edge: Sexuality and Gender at the Margins of Gamer Culture. University of Minnesota Press.
[3] Anthropy, Anna. 2012. Rise of the Videogame Zinesters: How Freaks, Normals, Amateurs, Artists, Dreamers, Drop-Outs, Queers, Housewives, and People Like You Are Taking Back an Art Form. New York: Seven Stories Press.
Thank you to my interviewees:
Droqen: www.droqen.com/ @droqen4266
Sylvie: sylvie.website/
And thank you to the people who lent their voices:
Darkfry @Darkfry
Kevin @PixelLit
Sam @Afterthoughts
Monty @MontyZander
Alicia @Transparencyboo
Mark @GMTK
Chris @ErrantSignal
All game footage captured by me, except the Dave the Diver MGS section (taken from DustDogg Gaming)
Music used in this episode:
Clocking In - Logan Hayes
Seals and Dolphins - D'Anthoni Wooten
Diver - Jukio Kallio
Welcome to my Bistro - Jongho Yoo
Inside the Wall - Yann Van Der Cruyssen
The Notebooks - Yann Van Der Cruyssen
Shop Theme - Koji Kondo
Restaurant Prep - D'Anthoni Wooten
Games shown (aside from the diving and cat games): Rain World, The Pathless, Dishonored, Rollerdrome, Prince of Persia The Lost Crown, Getting Over It With Bennett Foddy, Sifu, Citizen Sleeper, Neon White, Teardown, Yume Nikki, BABBDI, NaissanceE, Animal Well, Ghost of Tsushima, Forest's Secret, Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom, Thirty Flights of Loving, The Evil Within, Paradise Killer, A Plague Tale: Requiem, Inscryption, Bury Me My Love, Balatro, Carto, VVVVVV, With Those We Love Alive, Curtain, Problem Attic, Venba, The Witness, A Good Gardener, Dyo, Before Your Eyes, Her Story, Baba is You, Outer Wilds - เกม
![แขกคนแรกร้านแจ๊ส [ซี - เอมมี่] | iJazzKhunJang](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XP6C9kulFfc/mqdefault.jpg)
![[4K] BABYMONSTER(베이비몬스터) “FOREVER” Band LIVE Concert “영원히” 베몬만을 사랑하게 되…💗 [it’s KPOP LIVE 잇츠라이브]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TQfC0xdpiw4/mqdefault.jpg)
Look, there's a comment section!
Hmm... writing comments under videos is said to boost the video in the algorithm. I wonder if that's somehow relevant here?
Let's write a comment!
Perhaps I can use this keyboard to type my comment?
I typed a comment using this keyboard!
If I press 'enter' now, it will appear underneath the video in the comment section. Let's try that!
My comment appeared under the video in its comment section!
Now I have to wait for others to read it. Hmm, should I go watch the rest of the video in the meantime?
Let's go watch the rest of the video while I wait!
Wow! The video is playing again and I'm watching it!
This is a perfect comment.
The best and greatest comment
That deserves more likes
there is now a lot of fake / subversive indie studios parading as indie, just like comicsgate is made of a few corporation plants that want you to believe they are not there to manipulate and destroy the indie scene to let some room of legitimacy to the mainstream comics, as they are publishing really bad , incompetent, boring and late books.
Hey, there's a comment and it's pinned!
The comment doesn't have many replies and it's pretty accurate and relevant to the issues discussed in the part of the video I'm at.
Since I like the comment and want to congratulate the commenter on their apt commentary, I should probably write a comment!
There's a keyboard I can use to type my comment.
Let's press enter to give this commenter a comment parodying Dave the Diver's dialogue to their comment doing the same thing but better.
I should give it a like too, to show support.
Let's hope it makes them happy!
"You're not fully in control of the cat."
So, they went for realism.
I mean, sure, but that position is premised on the experience of being not-a-cat in proximity to a cat
@@TXWatson Maybe cats aren't even fully in control of themselves?
The glazing is unreal
The idea is it isn't very engaging or satisfying. As someone that 100% completed the game. Its a good point.
@@Hugh.Manatee not at all. I have a cat and she has 0 thoughts before doing something. Actually she has 0 thoughts most of the time. All her actions are made by impulse and desire to eat, destroy and play. Nothing else
I just want to add the small counterpoint that indie games have no specific onus upon them to explore new mechanics, ideas, or themes. Stardew Valley is a ideal refinement of decades-old mechanics, and it's great! The entire boomer-shooter genre is profoundly deriviative, and that's the whole point of them! Just because a game is unoriginal doesn't mean it's bad, and furthermore, it's still very possible to tell deep personal stories with well-worn genres. I love inventive and genre-breaking games too, but it feels inappropriate to measure all games (indie and otherwise) by that yardstick.
I don't know if that's fair to boomer shooters... depending on how you define the sub-genre.
Many would consider games like Ultrakill, Hyper Demon, Neon White, etc. "boomer shooters", and I think those are more unique and doing more to push the fps genre forward than the vast majority of FPS out there. There aren't a bunch of Ultrakill clones popping up because it did the exact same things games from the 90s did.
@@321cheeseman it did not, Ultrakill has deep movement mechanics something Doom does not, beyond moving fast, dusk is a better example of not bringing anything new to the table, dusk is a simple throwback... the reason you don't see Ultrakill clones is bc very few devs actually care to implement deep movement mechanics. it requires some interest and understanding of physics to do well, even if the movement mechanics are inherently unrealistic.
@@bam_bino__ It did though. Ultrakill has very clearly inspired a fair few games (Reaver, Voidborn, Force Reboot, etc.) and there will certainly be more in the future.
What I'm saying is I can't imagine this would be the case if Ultrakill were doing nothing new, or didn't at least offer a particularly novel combination of existing ideas and aesthetics.
@@321cheeseman I agree. While I wouldn't call Hyper Drmon or Neon White Boomer Shooters, they are a clear evolution of that type game.
It's like an alternate path the genre might have taken instead of the scripted cinematic presentation it opted for instead.
There's a difference between refining old formulas/being inspired by cool aesthetics, and using the exact same tired concepts and stylings that everyone else is using. You're doing a disservice to stardew valley. That game is a lot like the harvest moon games, but it puts a lot of work into being extremely unique.
Ive never taken the game awards too seriously because it doesn't reward the best games it just rewards the most popular.
To be fair, not necessarily true for some. while Alan Wake 2 sold as much as you'd expect a good double-a game with a triple-a budget to sell, it hasn't been the most popular in almost any of the categories it was nominated. Plus while Dave was nominated, it wasn't the one that won despite being more popular than a lot of the other nominations.
@@deddrz2549 I can somewhat agree however the nominations are for the most popular games as for who wins there is definitely some level of quality of said game that is considered though it still just feels like a popularity contest due to how we have no idea they choose the game to win.
@@jairdinh7563 I agree that the games that are nominated aren't always the most popular but it does feel like most of the games that win are just they most popular ones (Specially because ik a lot of people just vote for the nominated game they most liked and don't really think about how good they are in that category)
Aherm...disco elysium....aherm
They literally used to just be woman in bikinis with game themes painted on their bodies. It was just MTV entertainment owned by a TV channel that was "just for the guys" and hosted by celebrities who vocally during the show one time didn't like games. Eddy Burback and his brother did a good video on his second, brother channel th-cam.com/video/BvGn9mm9bT0/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Burback
I'd add "Indie in Spirit" to the very long list of reasons that Geoff Keighley is talking out of his arse.
Must be an exhausting list to maintain XD
"Indie in Aesthetics"
At that point, Valve games are indie. They do what people love about indie games by experimenting. But Valve is a major publisher with tons of money. I think the idea of indie good, AAA bad is a false narrative that's leading to this.
I think part of the issue with how the whole subject is viewed is that there are only two categories of games, indie or AAA. It's treated as a dichotomy.
There are so many games, like Dave the Diver or Stray, that really don't fit cleanly into either category, they are neither Indie nor AAA.
I think it would be more helpful to think about and talk about the whole thing as a spectrum instead, but I doubt that nuance will ever come to be common.
I’ve seen people attempt to use both “AA” and “III”. Personally I’m not a fan of either.
I mean, it's just a loaded description, as it encapsulates both the production and the artistic goals.
Larian (baldurs gate 3) is 500 people and made a megahit = "AAA". However, they are still passion driven, self funded = "indie".
MiniRocket (dave the diver) are a small production = indie, but were rather market driven and made a megahit = AAA.
So, the only meaningful difference is, if the game has a game director that's actually creating "art", as opposed to being by the numbers. It's the same with movies, where someone as Nolan still makes high budget blockbusters, but clearly cares about making a good movie. As opposed to random directors hired by Disney to churn out the next Marvel installment, having a screenplay/actors handed to them, etc.
So, to me, it's a top down (AAA) vs bottom up (indie) mindset, that is the most important. In that sense, the actual size doesn't matter as much.
@@zippa93 AA has been a term for more than a decade.
Yeah I remember hearing it around Subnautica (2014), but I don’t feel like it’s really caught on
There were double AA games back in the day, back when big studios made smaller projects. Remember Me is a good example.
Also, I feel like the Indie/AAA distinction we have now has a lot to do with the 08 market crash and how it killed the AA developer scene that exists from that time. I think a lot of these games like Dave The Diver or Hades are us seeing the AA dev starting to come back, just being born out of the Indie movement that kept a lot of them alive or that those new players had to grow up in in an age where big publishers and developers became SUPER RISK ADVERSE for like 2 decades.
It's also related to the current development studio mass layoffs and how those people are basically starting to re-break ground the way game development in the olden days started out - in a cave with a box of scraps. Just with years of experience making games, but now they're forced to just have a go without big publisher money because those big publishers are beheading golden geese left and right. So a lot of "indie" now means "former AAA devs trying to survive and keep doing what they love doing". A lot of that means seeing more AA and "triple-A-style" indie projects.
A lot of AA studios weren't, "killed off" they were bought.
@@soundrogue4472
They were bought, and then butchered, often for parts, which killed them.
yeah i dont like that she asked exactly 0 indie game devs for this video indie games dont avoid convention they just dont care about convention. also indie is a distinguishment made by if you are INDEPENDENT it is measurable if you have a publisher or parent company or investors you are no longer indie.
Is valve indie or indie in spirit? What about Nintendo? Indie doesn't mean innovative in the same way AAA doesn't mean corpo slop. Companies are made of people with vision regardless of size.
All of the things you're describing were almost certainly put into Dave the Diver to get into Steam festivals. Steam runs these festivals around certain themes. There's a fishing fest, a farming fest, a card game fest, etc. All of the extra stuff is in the game to tick off a box so they can get into the Steam festival to promote the game. Festivals are the best way to get a game promoted these days, so it could be that we are seeing something like festival-driven game development. Not saying that's a good thing. It just seems like a driving force in games these days.
A big budget studio pretending to be indie could pull off that strategy really well. They just need to cram all of this content into the game, apply to the festivals, and blammo, exposure.
This is the best answer so far to my question of "why dear lord why"
@@PixelaDay You would be the perfect video essayist to do some more research into it and see if there's something to this theory.
Wow, this has to be it. The art style even looks like a potential minimalist Steam Sale style. It looks like there isn't substantial enough depth to any of those pieces for Dave the Diver to qualify, but designing around festivals is definitely a solid marketing strategy, whether that be based on artistic themes, mechanics, or demographics/politics. If you can check any box, check it.
@@PixelaDayIt would explain why the game holds your hand so much, too. It's trying to prevent anyone from being frustrated.
@@LeMicronaut Yeah, and to be clear, I'm not saying I think Steam should regulate these kinds of things. Full disclosure, I am an indie game developer. I think we should get the idea more out in the open, get the public talking about it, maybe get some more awareness amongst gamers. It's similar to microtransactions in the way it breaks the cohesiveness and singular vision of games.
"They're rough when Triple-A is polished"
Ah yes, what I most associate with Triple-A game development, polish and definitely not rushing a game to meet a deadline under crunch.
Yeah, and how can you look at hollow knight and say that it’s not polished?
Just from the top of my head Against the Storm, Dyson Sphere Program and Planet Crafter were better in early access release than most AAA games on full release.
They also received better and faster support than AAA games.
Today I can't buy AAA game on release, because I know it's gonna be an unenjoyable, buggy mess until a year or so has passed and the game is at least kinda finished.
@@BetterPrespective It would have been if the devs were capable of making a good video game.
Somehow both
@@chainsawplayin Jo but why throw hands though.
“It’s like if Death Stranding had a drone that you could send out to deliver packages for you”
Yeah, that’s in the game lmao
tbf it sucks and smashes the packages.
@@joetheeskimo8885 you also cannot get a score higher than an A, requires you to build out the road system for it to be really effective, and is honestly better suited for moving equipment you don't need to other bases. think a floating carrier but clunkier
yeah she kinda lost me there...
I think that was the joke.
@@otagaeff4864 If you're anything like me, that road system is getting built either way lol
"Hey look indies are doing great! Look at this good indie live service called Hell Divers 2"
Sony: _Oh.. uh, yea. Totally indie... Please make a Sony account._
rainworld reference spotted!
(screw sony!)
Sony: if you live outside the PSN regions, we don't need you because you're poor
Sony: why 90% of my playerbase stopped playing?
@@LK-jm7jv thr,,. Looks to the sun., or smth like that..
@@LK-jm7jv RAINWORLD, YOU SAY?
Sorry that game rewired my brain. I cannot see any amount of water or clouds without going “rain world reference”
I get the impression with The Game Awards at least, that they give awards to indie games based on their viral popularity, not what is actually the best game. They pick whatever they think will give them the most indie cred at the time based on what the current buzz is outside the big AAA space, without alienating their mainstream AAA-loving audience.
TGA is literally in the pockets of AAA publishers. The impression I get is that they don't dare alienate those big budget sponsors.
TGA is just like any other mainstream award show, it only exists to sell games instead of celebrating games. The voters will usually just vote for whatever game they’ve heard of (or for whatever developer scmhoozed them enough leading up to the vote), not which game they genuinely thought was the best, and most likely a majority of the voters hadn’t played even half of the games that were up for nomination. TGA is a joke and shouldn’t be treated with any reverence by the larger gaming community.
@@RwnEsper It's not in the pocket of anyone or doing anything for a specific purpose. The jury is journalists around the world. It's just that. People who don't really play things that aren't the most marketed games.
or any sort of woke shit
Stray wasn't "viral" popularity, it was popular because it had a publisher (Annapurna) who spent a lot of money promoting it in the press. it's far more mainstream industry than "viral buzz"
Stray winning was batshit crazy. Tunic, Sifu or Cult of the Lamb were far more insteresting and I'm a Cat person , also from Brazil but not named Brazil
And Neon White is one of my favorite games of all time. Honestly speaking Stray was my least favorite out of all the options. It feels like if they gave a bodybuilder award to a fat guy because he had the most amount of people taking pictures
Given the estrogen soaked judges and bizarre cat fanaticism I wasn't surprised at all. I'm never going to act like cat people are normal.
But all of the awards shows are dumb anyway. It's not hard to know what's going to win.
What do you mean you're from Brazil, but not named Brazil?
@@JZStudiosonlineI like cats. I can't stand cat people.
@@JZStudiosonline bro what do trans ppl have to do with this. didn't even know the judges were trans.
fact still remains that stray won because of it's popularity though.
Holy shit the Dave the Diver dialogue is literally a dora the explorer moment
It's insane to realize how few people finish games, specifically games that they still say they enjoy.
BUT
The important thing is that they enjoy things.
There's a tree growing outside my window that I've enjoyed for years, totally free.
@@jacksquatt6082 what
Right?! Nothing infuriates me more than people saying they loved a game that they couldn't even get themselves to finish!
@@Ruben_BE_ Why does that infuriate you? There are many ways to enjoy something, that don't have to involve getting the credits to roll.
@@Keisuki Hmm, while that's kinda true, I guess it can also say something about the game's quality if many also don't finish it?
An indie game is where the developers make all the calls. Artistic choices, deadlines, story, difficulty... everything. They have a vision and staying true to that vision 100%. Regardless of what is trending, nothing needs to be approved from the outside, nothing is measured with the public. In summary, the devs are not mere workhorses here making a product born from careful calculations of a publisher based on mass appeal and market share. Profit was never the goal, but the expression of the idea. To materialize the vision. The priorities are different - staying true to the original concept, sometimes even at the cost of loosing reception. They view their product as a mirror and would not bear to look if they wouldn't stay true to it all the way.
Today, companies realized that there's a valid paying market for indie games, meaning there's money to be had. So they want in, but since their reason is not the expression of an idea, but profits, everything seems forced - their vision is not born on it's own, it's simply a plan to sate a need for money. That need is the organic part here that came first and the idea is the result - not the other way around. A plan purposefully generated and constantly altered based on where the gains are, for means of financial success. Thus the best they can do is an imitation, still without a soul, just a calculation - the reason why they came here in the first place. There was nothing banging inside anyone head to be let out, it's just an execution of well-organized tasks. These publishers are now hosting events to celebrate themselves in this territory as well, a place that was born in spite them. Thank you for conciously pinpointing this phenomenon:)
I understand the description you're going for but this can still apply to a bunch of older AAA games too. This can even apply to some of the EA original games.
@@paulpangilinan6671 You do realised that most of these AAA games did started out as an indie games right? Or at least the company started out as indie devs and are just developing a passion project. Maybe not EA specifically, but games like Half life or Doom were developed by small team that were then either grew into a massive triple A companies or bought by massive studios.
@@zackfross98 it also applies to a lot of arcade games like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Dead or Alive. It also applies to Assassins Creed, L4D1, Far Cry 2, and Devil May Cry. I think uncompromising design as a descriptor for what an indie game is kinda worse than the original description of an indie game because it unintentionally lumps in too many games into indie even if it doesn't fit. Like the original Sonic games would end up counting as indie games by this description. I prefer the original, more objective, description more because at least you can just correct people on it. You will just end up with arguments using the OP's description
The indie game manifesto
@@paulpangilinan6671 I would say that being "developer-driven" is one requirement for indie games and that it's just a prerequisite. Afterwards you can start going into business and corporate structure but if the game's design isn't foremost being driven by a vision it isn't really indie.
It's not a hard and fast rule of what is or isn't indie, I'd say it's more like an equation that factors in budget, team size, corporate oversight, etc. but that entire formula is multiplied by x, where x is a boolean of "does the developer have full creative control?"
I just finished Dave the Diver last week. I'd agree that they went a little overboard on the minigames, but most of them were fairly short, refreshing breaks from the typical cycles you go through in the game. The fish farm also absolutely does not make it so that you don't need to dive, at least not without dedicating tons of money and time towads upgrading it and collecting the appropriate fish roe (which is a lot, and they are't guranteed to drop).
I think DtD is the way it is because of scope creep. The devs probably just kept thinking "hey, this'd be a neat thing to add to the game" and eventually ran out of appropriate places to add said things given the sheer volume of them. The farming was annoying, I'll give you that, but I have very few problems with the rest of the game.
I agree with this
Yeah the fish farm absolutely doesn't negate the need to dive, especially since you need to keep diving to fill it up. It's there to get even more fish than you usually would so long as you check it once in a while. Late game you need soooo much fish to level up the dishes and it helps me double my produce passively.
You can also completely ignore it too, if it's something you don't care for, once they get full enough it just stops producing. The fish remain there until you decide to do something about it, I think the main point is to help struggling players who keep losing all their fish later on as more dangers show up. Just so you have SOMETHING to fall back on and not get softlocked selling normaki. But I personally use it to double my fish production on top of what I'm getting from diving. You'll always be diving though, it's not like you'll be doing anything else during the day..
I agree with this. I liked some but not all of the mini games.
It’s like this reviewer hates when devs get creative… really lame review tbh
got to "the opening scene of stray is exactly my shit", and said out loud, "you should play rain world!!!". got to "it's the exact opening sequence of rain world!" and said "oh!". got to "because of that one annoying friend that rants at you about it constantly" and said "oh..."
edit, now that i've actually finished the video: you're never gonna guess what that "favorite underrated indie gem" is...
ahem.....R A I N W O R L D
i love the silly depressed robots
Wait, but death stranding *does* have a mechanic where you send drones delivering packages for you
Yeah that was a bad analogy. A lot of games have mechanics that streamline core gameplay. Like getting No Encounter weapons in FFX when the whole game is based around encounters.
Does it fully replace walking? Also I don't think it would work here although IDK
I find it fascinating why "What is an Indie Game" seems so hard to answer.
The core definition is a game made by a studio that is independent from a bigger label, publisher, board etc.
Game commissioned by publishers are almost always made with the thought of publishing them from the ground up.
They're made based on currently popular themes, genres, monetization schemes etc.
In contrast, most if not all Indie Games are made because someone just wanted to make them.
And sure, both are not mutually exclusive. You find AAA passion projects (Death Stranding) or trend chasing indies. But it's not the norm.
The distinction between AAA (and AA etc.) and Indie is less the spirit behind a project and just how it was made, marketed, financed etc.
So no, Dave the Diver is not an indie game, it was announced, made and published by Nexon, a giant industry publisher. Heck, it was initially meant to collab with NatGeo, too...
Though kudos to Nexon for launching the game under a sub-brand so people treat it as an indie game...
The game awards is just Hollywood at this point.
I see it as more “Capitalist” then Hollywood… all great things in America eventually end up falling into full Capitalism.
Overtime it becomes more corporate, soulless until it gets completely gutted after the precious shareholders (whom are more important the health of the world) don’t see improved profits over the year before.
Ahh life.
Always has been
Indie game: A game that keeps the demo up post-release.
This gave me a scary, dystopic definition:
Indie: Buy to Play
AAA: live service
@@Soumeinliterally how it is rn, every other AAA release is multiplayer only, requires online connection, or has a battlepass
There's still single player aaa don't be a doomer about it
@@Kaeloz93what if it's online-needed tho when singleplayer?
@@DoctorWhoNow01 but nintendo tho
Indie just means made by an independent studio. So no publisher or outside funding and not big enough to be a publisher.
It has nothing to do with style. And then there's the plague that is Indie-style games, where big companies try to mimic what indie ends up being to make a buck.
It's not even just big companies, there's plenty of indies imitating indies. I can say one of my favorite indies from last year was basically a mashup of two really popular indies-Vampire Survivor and Hades. Which worked out perfectly since I disliked those two games for very different reasons but ended up really enjoying the new game heavily inspired from both.
@@goldman77700 Trying to copy success is common. Sometimes it's actually just an inspiration and not a desire to clone. "I can do this but better!" is a good thing.
My issue is with big corpo wanting to cash in and ending up being something soulless. Kind of like chinese game clones.
@@soulwynd I'd say it's less "I can do this but better" and more "I want this to be better"
Thank you! I don't understand how "what is an indie game?" a difficult question to answer, it has nothing to do about the feeling of the game or the message or how personal it is
It's just a game developed by an independent developer. They can be good or bad, personal or not, derivative or not, it doesn't matter
It can be the most unoriginal thing and be indie if it was developed by an independent developer
in fairness to stray, the pre release trailers made it clear you were a cat in a cyberpunk fallen world with humanoids to interact with. much less of a bait and switch than dave the diver
Indie to me just means that the developers are free from a publisher or other company funding them (hell indie is just short for independent anyway). I wouldn't consider Dave the Diver as indie solely for that reason (I don't know enough about Stray to say if it technically qualifies or not). I think saying things like "indies need to be experimental" feels counterproductive. As long as the devs are making what they want to make, I don't see the issue. Some people just want to make more of the kind of things they already like, while maybe adding a twist here or there to make things interesting. Pizza Tower (which was robbed by Dave the Diver btw), Stardew Valley, the boomer shooter scene, Splitgate, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, etc.
Sounds like Dave the Diver would've been a fantastic yakuza-like game if all those bonkers minigames were optional
EDIT: I haven't played the game. I'm basing my thoughts on the information in the video
I didn't get this until I watched the video lol holy heck, I didn't know that was in the game. I thought it was merely a diving and fishing game. It's like Yakuza but with a gun to your head forcing you to play the minigames 😂 shoehorning a rhythm game within a diving game has got to be a flex somewhat.
Most of those mini-games are optional, and the ones that are not are really short story segments to add variety. Some of the mini-games are undeveloped (the stealth section and farming games are probably the worst.) But I don't think it was as bad as she says in the video. That said the thing I tend to value most in games is novelty so I had fun with it.
You can ignore like 90% of that shit.
Wow am I glad I didn't buy Dave the Diver. Wouldn't be surprised if all that bloat was directly caused by pressure from higher ups
Dave the Diver was great, but a lot of the side content did feel unnecessary and I would have preferred the spent more time making the restaurant and diving more varied, and less time adding in superfluous side activities.
I think defining "Indie" as "not AAA" is a genius definition, honestly.
it pushes into the spotlight the main reason people value "indie games" in the first place. Hell, it's why the label is called "independent"; in order to be "independent" you have to be contrasted against being "dependent", the question then becomes: Dependent on what?
I believe the answer to that question is where the real juice lies.
Furthermore, I believe the answer is found in the economic forces at play during the creation of the game (yes I am weird). I think, being "Independent" is a recognition of the freedom of the authors involved in the game, resulting from not having to answer to someone else. The only reason to answer to someone else in this way is, basically, money.
In this I am talking about the people ACTUALLY making the game, not the company.
If the creative team is making a game, and they are just following their own drive, it counts as independent. The issue then comes from figuring out how many of the decisions of the game were made with the goal of selling a bunch of copies. Capitalism worms its way through every creative endeavor so it's bound to be present in all creative works which are placed in the market and thus transformed into commodities to be compared with other games they must compete with for the gamers' money.
With this in mind, we must return to our original equation:
Indie =/= AAA
In this equation, "indie" gives up its own definition for that of the inverse of "AAA" which prompts the question: What defines a AAA game?
The answer, as I see it, is that a AAA game is a commodified game; meaning, a game MEANT to be "A game" one in a rack of games, its own specific characteristics transformed into indistinct features, interchangeable with that of any other "Game" in the rack; it's no longer "THIS game" it's just one of many options for you to choose.
In essence: a AAA game = any AAA game, otherwise, competing with one another wouldn't be possible.
It's why metrics like "hours per dollar" become a necessity. You could have spent that money in any other game, which would give you indistinct "fun", so the ONLY way to differentiate them is through those kinds of metrics.
Let us use this definition back in our original equation:
Indie =/= AAA
Meaning:
Indie =/= Commodity
An indie game, with this definition, would be a game that is not meant to compete with other games. A game that, at its core, refuses to give up its unique nature, refuses to become undifferentiated "fun". It's incomparable to other indie games because you can't really thread a cohesive definition that would put them all within the same box, and in that very impossibility, they refuse to be commodities, they are NOT AAA games.
It doesn't mean selling an indie game makes it not indie anymore, it doesn't mean they can't be compared with other indie games; rather, it just means that the forces that create the impulse to create undifferentiated, interchangeable products for a market, are absent or at the very least contained. In this way, no game can ever be "truly indie" except those which are not meant to be released (alla "the beginners' guide) but the label "indie" is still useful as a way to distinguish that feeling of a game which cannot be compared to others, not because it has more features, or lasts longer, or is updated more frequently, but because it simply is itself.
Anyways idk if it makes sense to anyone else.
TL;DR: the video made me think a lot and I thank you for that, first time viewer and definitely gonna binge all your other videos
Thanks for your comment! Welcome and I hope you enjoy the channel :)
I'd say independent just means "not owned by a massive company." Animal Crossing isn't an indie game, even if it could be. The creatives might not have been hampered, but.
I demand financial compensation for making me sit through that Dave the Diver dialogue.
Take it up with Nexon, I hear they have the dosh
Maybe the Patreon edit has less of it. Who knows, maybe those are the benefits ;p
God that was painful to listen to. It's like it's made for toddlers.
It was the, "Again, I need to get rid of them before doing anything else." where I snapped. 14:18
Simply dont watch that part of the video
WHAT? how did stray beat tunic AND cult of the lamb!?
Because it has pretty graphics and a normal ass cat. It’s that simple.
I've heard a lot of bad things about cult of the lamb so it's not surprising but stray is mid af 😂
@@wiktor3727 I do like Cult of the Lamb, but I gotta say it was pretty rough on release. Lots of bugs and missing features.
But they have been steadily updating it, adding a lot of features, content and QOL along the way. They're even adding a co-op mode which is pretty cool.
@@RazzleTheRed1*they have sex*
Dude. Neon White. It's in my top 3 favorite games of all time.
Based on what I heard about Stray, I refuse to believe it could be better than FUCKING NEON WHITE
it's actually really simple: indie, like the word it originated from, "independent", should be classified if there's a publisher or not.
If Steven Spielberg burns his own money on equipment, hires his local childhood neighborhood, and films an entire feature length film and publishes, that's an Steven Spielberg independent movie. if he uses a studio money its not
in game terms it means that star-citizen is indie while hi-fi rush is a AAA
I think this idea misses the category of games that have a publisher that themselves aren't very big, or have a more complex publisher situation. Stardew Valley was originally published by Chucklefish Games (though the rights have since been returned to ConcernedApe after the game's success), and that's one of the posterchildren of indie games. I do still agree that there should be some barrier based on assistance, but not all publishers are equal in what assistance they can provide.
The term is borrowed from the music industry, where "indie" did not mean free from a record label, but rather that the record label that published a bands music wasn't beholden to any shareholders, but rather independently owned.
In the gaming world it does get rather complicated though. Because both under the definition I put forward and the definition Rockmanbalboa put forward, Valve games would end up being classified as indie, as would Baldur's Gate 3
Wait did Steven Spielberg actually do that? And what movie was it?
@@jokerofspades-xt3bs I’m pretty sure they were talking about a hypothetical situation.
Ok but under this defenition consider this, TF2 a valve game would be considered indie since they published it themselves even if its clearly not, And something like ULTRAKILL no matter how much of an indie title it obviously is isn't indie since it has a publisher in New Blood
To me, an indie game is a passion project that is self-funded, crowd-funded, and maybe self-published. Something like Cave Story.
I do not think it matters whether it subverts the AAA industry or not. It could just be a clone of Mega Man but have tweaks to make it the game the developer always wanted it to be.
If I ever make a game, this is what I would do. In my head is the Golden Axe and Double Dragon sequel that has not been released yet, that is exactly what I would try to bring to life.
Look, as much as I think an Indie prize is great, I would actually point to Stray as the most obvious case of "What bleeping budget standards are you using"? Personally?
There's a lot of categories I'd want Geoff to make. As far as the Indie game mess (and it is one) goes? EXPLICIT. BUDGETARY. STANDARDS. And two categories.
Indie Game: $15 million US or less. That's a LOWER budgetary standard than the Indie Spirits currently have for movies (which is currently $30 million) but still communicates the basic idea without being too anal. (However laudatory or not you think it is, Dave the Diver IS probably within that range somewhere.)
AA Game: $16-74 million US. Stray is, ABSOLUTELY, within this range, for the record.
As for a pure uncritical "self-funded" definition? As much as I want to support that, there's a huge, Megalopolis sized, hole in that logic. If your self-funded movie costs almost as much as Ant-Man, are you really an "Indie Movie"? Really?
@@Volvagia1927 I understand where you're coming from and I personally don't even factor in the award show criteria because I don't pay attention to them.
I like your budget constraints.
As for your last question, I guess I would consider Copollas Megalopolis an indie film, but that is purely my subjective take.
I'm more interested in it being a passion project. It could be great or it could be the gaming equivalent to The Room, which is kind of great in its own way.
What if games were categorized by their launch price?
"Cats see the human world as a puzzle platformer" is an interesting idea though, and the game does get it across very powerfully, even if the puzzle platformer part is rather standard mechanically.
I don't think I agree that indie games "should" be arbitrarily counter to AAA trends. Subversiveness, newness, surprise, these aren't the only value of art. Indie games can be anything; that's part of how they create such variety of mechanics and style. But I think it's wrong to say that's the only thing they can do. Refining, replicating, practicing, elaborating, expanding-- these are all things art, be it games or stories or any other medium, can do, and they all have value, and exist as part of an ecosystem that feeds itself. If no one ever wanted to ruminate on existing trends, mechanics, and story beats, we would all be much worse off, no matter what kind of game we prefer playing.
It's actually a bit maddening, because you yourself talked about wanting replication! You wanted Stray to give you the experience and atmosphere of Rain World! Is replication somehow more valid because it's replicating indie? Is it just because the 'original'-- in the form you recognize-- is newer and thus isn't "overdone" yet? Or, is it simply because that's the experience you like most, and you were disappointed to end up with something you like less?
Actually, that also rubbed me wrong on the reviewer section. You criticized these game journalists... for disclosing their biases and personal favoritism toward the content of what they were reviewing. I'm sure it did taint the rest of their reviews, as did the fact that they're for-profit reviewers under publications with editors and format requirements, probably writing on shit deadlines. Do you really expect and want reviewers to cut their voice out of their reviews entirely? Or do you just find their enthusiasm on this subject embarrassing, because you don't understand "cat people" and you don't share that enthusiasm? Would you react the same if reviewers for an otome game said "I'm a sucker for cheesy romance, so as soon as I saw the first encounter with Romance Candidate 1 I was like, 'sign me up!'"?
Some of these questions may seem like passive-aggressive rhetorical devices intended to make you seem or feel stupid. I mean these questions sincerely. I feel like there's things worth interrogating further in your complaints and arguments here. I don't have to agree with the conclusions you come to; the questions are, I think, still worth asking.
I'll also say, game awards an entirely different kettle of fish. It's reasonable to ask them to find and hold consistent standards, if they want to be taken seriously as an industry and consumer metric. I also don't think we should ever take an industry award show as a sincere metric for any measure of quality. That may be a controversial take, and I'm not saying that I see no value in award shows at all, but invariably, these awards-- Oscars, Hugos, Pulitzer, GotY-- bend to outside pressures, profit motives, and the force of popularity, as well as the constraints of time and resources. Expecting them to be a measure of objective quality, or a way to find hidden gems or raw experimentation, is a comical exercise in futility. Games have to get popular first before they hit an award show. They're never going to have that many sharp edges, because anything too unwelcoming or unfamiliar is not going to get the wide audience interest necessary to get to an award show.
It sounds to me, from your closing statements, that what you want has much less to do with what is or isn't indie, much less to do with what an award show says, and a great deal more to do with, "how do we foster the material conditions for experimentation in art to continue to thrive?" Policing or restricting the term "indie" isn't going to do that. Indie devs lean on for-profit structures like publishing and funding drives (largely) not out of greed or dispassion for their art and craft, but because they need to survive and thrive in order to make art. Freeware is dormant not because people don't care about free games and not because people don't want to make free games, but because that system is actually incredibly limiting for who can make games and what games they can make. The system as it is rewards big, polished, formulaic games because those are what make money right now, and money is the system's metric for success. If you want to see more games do other things, we need to build different systems, and that's a much broader and more complicated topic than "does having a publisher preclude you from being indie" alone.
This is an absolutely amazing comment!
I tune out the awards part of The Game Awards for this reason. It feels like the whole show is just recognizing virality.
I feel like most people care way more about the announcements, and the random goofy shit.
I love it when my Discord messages are so good they make it into my friends scripts.
It's happened a number of times now
I'm still sore about Tunic not winning that game is so good and deserves so much attention
The Game Awards being craptacular aside, there is no binding document of Independent design that requires developers to be "innovative." Some of my favorite games don't re-invent the genre so much as polish them, or simply luck into the exactly right mix of mechanics and or quirky aesthetic that pleases me.
As for useful definitions:
"AAA " is just a game that has had gratuitously large mountains of cash lobbed at them.
"Independent" just means the game was made under the centralized vision of an auteur-grade developer without corporate oversight.
That makes it theoretically possible to be both AAA and Independent at the same time. Crowdfunding is a good example of how this can exist.
Exactly!!! Indie games can do all sorts of things, and "new" doesn't mean "good" or "interesting". Hell, "interesting" doesn't mean "good"! And the fact that "indie" and "AAA" aren't mutually exclusive in their actual usage is so important for the convo around them.
Tbh, I also think that the issue of "indie" and "AAA" is a kind of funny consequence of the nature of language. We want language to be consistent to be understandable, so we try to prescribe meaning onto our words and make strict definitions. But language is descriptive, and its actual use creates meaning far more than anything else can. When the average consumer says "indie", the reality of the structure of the development studio is much less useful to them and what they are trying to communicate than the "vibes" of the game. People are going to keep using indie and AAA outside the prescribed definition, and the definition will continue to fluctuate and fracture, especially when things with "indie vibes" are so goddamn lucrative right now. Forcing language to move where you want it is basically impossible. At best, you can make new words with the meaning you intend and then propogate that new language.
I think the moment in Stray that made me realize you're not playing as the cat, you're playing as the little robot that just conveniently has a cat bus, was when the little robot pulls out a flashlight.... because cat's are notoriously bad at seeing in dimly lit areas!
I do think you're being too hard on Dave the Diver and Stray (idk I found Stray's story to be surprisingly compelling?).
But also fully agree with your larger argument that they are nowhere near the best indies of their years, and that the only indies that get to be celebrated on big stages are the ones that are AAA-adjacent or ones that go viral for this or that reason. It's been a major bugbear for me for years.
I agree, but I think the analysis fails to capture the more general reasons for this. This is not a problem specific to Indie games, it's not a problem specific to games in general. Think about the Oscars. Often, very good movies win Oscars, but basically every year, there are absolute gems left out, simply because they aren't big enough. These types of award shows reward popularity and quality does not guarantuee popularity. The whole concept of an indie category at the game awards is kind of bonkers, because indie as a genre came up specifically because there were games with niche audiences that were successful despite being low profile, where low profile is the exact opposite of what you need at the awards. The question then becomes if it wouldn't be better just not to have an indie category there, but that's also not a good solution, as monolithic circle jerks of the bigshots in the industry are already far too common. I'm not sure if this problem has a solution, especially since indie already has such a loose definition that trying to exclude anything based on a limited number of metrics would leave many classics outside the definition that would generally be accepted as indie.
I mean, here's the thing, many of these indie games where published by big companies really, really late in development. The devs took *actual risks* because they weren't backed/funded for the majority of the development
Game development was my college degree and chosen career path.
Its hard to feel so disinterested with the industry I once saw my future in. :(
The fact that Pizza Tower didn't get anything made me die inside.
most recently, I've been playing through thecatamites' library, and watching him grow as a developer from Space Funeral to his new Anthology of the Killer series has been one of the most inspirational experiences I've ever had. His intentional messiness makes me feel like *I* can make something, it made me start getting messier with my own art, and after finishing Anthology of the Killer I literally started drawing up a zine because the game had built up so much creative excitement in me that I HAD to do something with it.
Glad someone's giving Anthology of the Killer the recognition it deserves lmao
thecatamites rocks!!!!
the worst part about dave the divers explainy-ness? the part you showed, for those who dont know, is the LAST AREA IN THE ENTIRE GAME
ouch
The fish farm part brings to mind the Sid Meier quote: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
13:00 lmao
I think people have been so disappointed with and frustrated by AAA games the last few years that they overstate the case for some indie games.
You are talking about what is being called "triple i". I think it formed it has formed because AAA games cost $200 mil & AA cost over $50 mil. So, some smaller games that used to be called indie moved up a level into the few million $ range.
mwaaaa i feel like the triple I initiative showcased true indie games, maybe call them.. oh yeah. AA. Just a thought
A game can be AAA simply with a budget of $30 Million, Remedy games is proof of this, they aren't indie.
Lovely video. I legit did not know Dave the Diver had all of those aspects to it. As you said, everyone just talks about the peaceful diving, that I have to believe people try it for a couple hours, chill around and like the mechanic - rave about it, but it's one of those games thty eon't see the end of, but just 'phase out' of playing.
As a cat person, Stray is very soothing to watch someone else play, but when it came time to actually buy an animal-based game, I went for Untitled Goose Game.
THANK YOU! I felt like I was going crazy!
When you asked what it's indie, my first thought was: it's hard to define, it's easier to define what it's AAA and start from there.
Interesting video, as always.
"I'm a bird person bitches!" is probably the best line from any video essay I've seen this year.
Fantastic work as usual :D
I was floored by this woman's strength of conviction.
Kat :( why won't you return my calls
- Dr. Bacon
You have no idea how hard to are actually selling Dave the River to me. Sounds like WarioWare on crack.
I take that as a big success! Enjoy the game! :)
@@PixelaDay Wow, I typo'ed the HELL out of that original comment! Lol. As always, looking forward to the next video!
Dave the River sounds like an interesting concept.
I actually liked a lot of Dave the Diver's side content. Well, not really the puzzles and games, but the farming parts. You had to actively hunt down the fish you wanted and put them to sleep after injuring them just the right amount. It becomes a bit trivial by the end game when you get very powerful tranquilizer/net guns , but early/mid game that is a major challenge. Especially for sharks or rare animals. It's like getting extra rewards for playing on hard mode.
Having never heard about Dave the Diver, this feels like watching a movie with a fake video game review in it.
Honestly, fantastic video and analysis of the current indie scene! As an indie dev myself (as in, not funded by a subsidiary of a billion dollar corporation), I feel like you captured really well the struggle to be seen and recognized in the indie category, when big titles like Dave the Diver and Stray are the ones that continually make waves in the media. I see some people calling them "triple i", which really hits the nail on the scope and execution of these games: triple A production-style games carried out by just slightly smaller corporations and groups.
Unfortunately, I don't think "proper" indie games will ever get that level of recognition _because_ of how that recognition is achieved in the first place: mass appeal. I know plenty of indie devs that made moderate success making relatively safe games with popular themes or gameplay loops. And I don't hold it against them, we all need to make money at the end of the day. But fundamentally, the types of games we want to play, or to be seen, or to be celebrated in their originality, are games that cannot resonate with most audiences. They're games that explore deeply personal stories about marginalized groups, or require a particular skillset that most casual gamers won't have, or they evoke feelings other than cozy and harmless family-friendly fun. They are your queer dating sims, your hyper difficult precision platformers, your terrifying psychological horrors.
Ultimately, the core issue seems to be one layer above the "indie vs. AAA" debacle: video games, as a whole, are moving away from a form of art and are getting more catered towards becoming a "viable product". Long gone are the days where you could have an artistically interesting expression through games, for the sake of creating interesting discussions or presenting novel ideas: instead, games need to be marketable, consumable, have just the right names attached to their fancy cover arts. It has become an industry, and like every other industry, they have trends, market groups, budgets, and brand recognition. It is driven by capitalism, consumerism. Games are measured in sales and profit, reviews and publishers. And this is a concerning reality that indie devs have to face more and more if they ever plan to make a living out of designing games.
Coincidentally, I'm gonna give a talk to a small group of beginner devs in a few days, and the topic of my talk is about game scopes. This video is a really really good resource to cite and to reference as I write my notes, because a lot of my talk will be focused on what effectively boils down to "stop trying to make the next big thing, you're not a big studio". It's a trap I see indie devs, especially people just learning game development, fall into time and time again. They want the financial success and widespread recognition of the big games and names, and they continually present their very safe and inoffensive ideas as the thing that will break the mold, when they themselves often describe it as "it's like [popular game], but [minor story/setting tweak]". It'll be a very difficult subject to broach without inserting personal biases, without alienating my audience, and without giving them false hopes of commercial and critical success through innovation alone. But your essay made that job a little bit easier 😊
Wow, I hope the talk goes (went?) well! What you wrote reminds me of a chapter in Brendan Keogh's "The Videogame Industry Does Not Exist" where he talks about the wild expectations that some students come into a game design degree with. I do feel that it's part of this broader problem of commercialism where a lot of gamers are conditioned to think of games as huge glossy products, rather than as a messy craft that must be honed painstakingly over many years, by making stuff that is feasible and authentic (and that requires that they actually find their own identity and voice rather than just copying others'!).
@@PixelaDay Thank you! The talk took place yesterday and it went much better than I expected! I think I managed to get a significant portion of the audience to rethink how they approach gamedev ☺️
Loved that you used dave the diver soundtrack for the entire video
It's a great soundtrack ngl
I will never stop talking about The Longing. If you haven't played it, GO PLAY IT
Argghhh it's on my wishlist!! Good people keep talking about it so I know it's good
I have to say, I don't really jive with the "no true scotsman" way to define indie games towards the end there. Sure, SOME indie games are streamlined five-hour experiences with no extra fluff, but then you have sprawling things like Terraria or Stardew that have incredibly broad scopes and get new areas and mechanics added constantly. Pseudoregalia is 100% an indie game, but the movement isn't that far off from something like Mario Odyssey. Is DUSK doing things all that different from Doom Eternal?
If there was an easy dividing line between indies and AAA games, the devs you talked to wouldn't have struggled like they did. Classification of ANY large group is wiggly, and saying things "don't count" as indie for whatever reason is just setting a bad precedent IMO.
That said, thank you for the clear care and attention you give to indie gaming in general, and for the shoutouts at the end! Corru.observer sounds amazing, and I love Echo.
I feel like indie is not a useful word anymore. If a guy in his basement makes an uninspired, lazy candy crush anime game is that indie? I don't care, it's garbage. I dunno. Everything is art, and most of it is bad but there will always be people making good art. And if a corporation by some miracle makes good art then I guess that's fine??
I liked his sentiments on prioritizing personally manageable, communal impacts, but it was odd hearing Droqen separate Hades (Supergiant Games) from Indie- I'd assume because of its success and praise. The studio has definitely grown over the decade, but I'd reckon they were basically business savvy indie developers who broke away from Electronic Arts and just stuck at it for years.
@@joppa-recoilerI see where you're coming from, but I think something funny is that I just love finding stuff like that sometimes. I'm not gobbling it down 24/7, so when I do stumble across some bizarre, undercooked project of a game, it makes me go "Hm, this guy had some level of talent and passion to construct this, but it's missing something. I wonder what he could pull off if his gaps were filled in by a teammate...!" I've made a few friends this way I think, not any big projects yet though. Someday I hope...!
I respectfully disagree on the fish farm compromising the actual diving core of the game. I see it as essential to maxing out the levels of the recipes since they require a TON of fish toward the last couple levels. Also the branch restaurant you open it helps provide ingredients for them, so there is a balance to it that works IMO
And I’d also like to add, I personally liked the constant stream of variety being added throughout the game, a lot of it can be ignored anyways.
It’s a game that keeps on giving. But that’s just my opinion. It’s prob worth noting that I got adult ADD, so that may be part of the reason I like it.
"I see it as essential to maxing out the levels of the recipes since they require a TON of fish toward the last couple levels" they could have just made it less grindy then
You nust be fun at parties@@LutraLovegood
@@Justcallmeaqua420 It's a perfectly valid argument. Why should a game undermine its own design and force the player to grind instead of actually engaging with the gameplay because the demand for resources increases towards the end? It's not a result of happenstance, it's designed as such.
If farming is sold as a solution to the problem, but the problem is entirely driven by the devs, then they could have just... not done it? And the game would be more fun? Typically a game would do something like increase fish population (perhaps as a result of something the player did in a mission to improve the local wildlife), unlock more effective fish catching methods/items or straight up introduce bigger fish which return more resources when caught.
@@feartrain1282 The problem is that adding new mechanics 6/7ths into the game is that there's not much time to use them. Everyone's least favorite curveball ending, Xen, turned Half Life from an incredible shooter to a first person platformer at the very end. I actually like Xen, it's just jarring.
The late game is when the player's skills are the most honed, and typically when the equipment/character is leveled up so they should be able to take on a challenge and pass it with flying colors.
I personally loved Dave the Diver, mostly because of the diving like everyone else, I guess. I also thought the dialogue was pretty fun...and I know it used "let's" and "we" a lot because it was a meta joke: Dave made other comments about what his circumstances would be like in a game (so it was a 4th wall "I know I'm in a game" joke that may have overstayed its welcome for some). It's not perfect, no, the farming section and some of the mini games were definitely shoe horned in and felt annoying but I don't think the imperfections took away from the actual game. I'm one of the people who made it to the end but, tbh, I don't typically like those types of games so, for me, it was nice to play a management sim and a diving game that didn't feel like an annoying chore for me.
But I also see why it would be a questionable choice for the award...especially given the size and budget of the team who made it.
I enjoyed Dave the Diver a lot. I don't think it is a mediocre game at all. But I 100% get the reviewers point here. It was cute introducing new mechanics in the first 2 hours of the game. Then it went from the core diving/sushi bar mechanics to management mechanics. Which were ok for a bit. . . but for me it really did start to drag on when I'm finishing my dive and managing multiple farms, fish farms, photo quests, and everything else the game wanted to throw at me.
As much as I loved it and will play it again at some point, I really do wish they'd stuck to those two main mechanics, fleshed them out more and called it a day.
Your point about indie being everything AAA isn't is exactly why as someone who wants to make games, I've never aspired to link myself to that term. The term has lost it's true meaning, and now people think that indie games can't and shouldn't adopt qualities that AAA games have, and should instead lean the opposite direction. I don't want to make indie games, I don't want to make AAA games, I want to make good games. I don't want to be limited to low graphics or lower polish. And I don't want to be constrained to shallow gameplay or established formulas.
There's nothing wrong with a big game, a big team, or a lot of funding. The stagnation and corporatization of the AAA industry has grown so vast and bloated that people now assume that everything wrong with AAA games/companies is a result of their size. So they condemn AAA and praise indie.
But at it's core, indie games are just that, independent games. Games made by an independent studio, not already established in the industry. Indie games are good and are important for innovation and fresh eyes, but there's this romanticization of indie games that frankly doesn't make sense. There's no reason for a successful indie developer to stay indie. Ideally, wouldn't you want to scale your funding and resources so you can make your games even more effectively, and can realize ideas that aren't achievable on a budget or with a small team? And even if you keep a small team, if you achieve sizable success and recognition in the industry, then you're really not indie anymore. You're one of the established developers in the industry.
But I feel like people are too caught up in their definitions of AAA and indie, and in seeing them as a sort of yin and yang of the video games industry, that they don't dare to imagine different possibilities. It's indie or AAA, either you have heart or you have scale and polish, black and white. But why must we limit ourselves? Why can't an indie studio scale, without selling out their values? Why can't we have studios that are both large and passionate? I think the main reason is because no one conceives of it, and no one tries. And so the rift grows deeper, and the industry gets more barren and stagnant.
This was massively helpful conceptualizing some of the indies I've played that are perfectly technically sound but just didn't sing to me, loved this one, ty~
My definition for an indie is a game that isn't made to please shareholders. If you have a publisher or a parent company that holds you to the will of detached bigwigs, then you aren't working independently anymore.
I actually was finally about to start Dave the Diver this weekend and you just saved me from a lot of disappointment. Thank you.
Wow, what a guest list!
Thanks a lot for making this video. I've thought something similar for a long time but couldn't put my finger on the core of the issue myself.
Oh, I'm so happy I came across this video... I almost bought Dave the Diver thinking it would be a laid back diving game. Thank you sincerely for this!
Favorite underrated indie gem?
Levelhead invented features that make it an actually good level creator experience compared to Mario Maker. The editor is so powerful you can make fancy bosses with custom music yet still accessible that 7-year-olds make stuff. You can guarantee that your levels get played and it's not flooded with troll garbage. Yet because nobody knows it exists, the genre will remain stagnant with SMM2 as the benchmark despite coming from a company notorious for poor community/online features.
Wow this channel is really good. This video and the What's Missing video changed the way I look at the games and their industry, thank you for these. We need to change the landscape where games made and played in to not let boring experiences become the accepted norm. My favourite underrated indie game is probably NaissanceE (for just everything about it) and I can't wait for Mavros Sedeño's next game SenS.
NAISSANCEE MENTIONED 👍
I'll be honest, after what you just described what dave the diver is, i actually got interested in playing it lol
I f**king love Stray
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
Here I'd been puzzling over why I haven't been able to get back into Dave even though I loved the diving and loved the restaurant management. Yeah, it's exactly that. All the other garbage, farming , sea-farming, pet-raising, etc that grind an otherwise fun game to a literal halt. How much more core gameplay could've been developed for Dave if time hadn't been spent on all that other stuff? Yeah, the rhythm game was a "surprise and delight" story-beat, but... at what cost? Great video.
Thanks, it's great seeing the video resonating with people.
And to be fair, this is often just as much of a problem with users as it is with the presenters of these game awards. The reason bland, least-common-denominator design is popular with AAA developers is because it sells, and the reason it tends to win awards is because it's popular with users. If people didn't vote for Dave The Diver as Best Indie Game, it wouldn't win the Steam award for Best Indie Game. Yes, we can argue that it should never have been on the ballot, but if people had voted for Do Not Feed The Monkeys 2099, then that's what would've won.
Amazing video, just a pleasure to watch. Thanks!
of course reject the mainstream. Of course! oh my gosh of course! There's a very strong analogy to the music scene: If you go to original music shows, if you're making original music, you're rejecting the mainstream. and oh look at that, you're cool.
What I love about indie games is that people can take their little weird idea that doesn't seem at all marketable on paper and let you experience it. Like even if the result isn't very good quality as long as the price is fair I find it delightful to see what people can come up with. In general my favorite art is the kind that gives you an experience you'd never have expected to have.
Makes me think a bit of Cookie Cutter and the lead dev's intentions behind that game. He went over a hundred interviews with possible publishers before he found one that was comfortable with letting that game be what it is and not make it more marketable.
There's not many games out there where the main character is a somewhat chubby angry android lady with a chelsea cut and a delight for violence setting out to save her lover in a very colorful sci-fi/cyberpunk dystopia inhabited by amorous skeleton robots, magical androids, chunky toad people, a Hindu demon with a belly mouth and a weapon selection consisting of a chainsaw, a plasma cannon and a motorbike (among some others).
He wanted to make something that is really *his*. Not here to reinvent the wheel but to make something born of his love and tastes in media.
Oh boy! Looking forward to watching this on Sunday 😅
Great commentary!!! The algorithm lead me to your channel and I'm impressed!
Welcome! I hope you enjoy the channel!
Another great video. A lot of great analysis, yet a light and playful tone.
Ye gods though, that Dave the Diver dialogue. 🤣
As a person who studied the game industry at uni, the literal definition of an indie game is a game with a small budget created by a small development team.
Triple A is the exact opposite.
Dave the Diver is not an indie game by definition.
The way you describe Stray as a "shittier big game" is what you call a Double A game.
I've only seen the title for this but given the general vybe of this channel oooh boy I'm interested 😀
Gonna get myself a cup of tea and a blanket to watch this one
41:43 you can't believe how excited i was when you started mentioning my favorite games one after the other (even dyo!)
I'm confused. Should I or should I not put the intact divine tree fruit in the divine tree fruit device?
You came out here with fighting words!
really good video! cant believe i havent seen this channel before!
Welcome to the channel! Hope you like it here
All the extra stuff that Dave the diver adds during the end felt interesting.
It all came right around the time I had finished all my exploration of the ocean. I think you just paced the early game way too slowly
The Stray Section feels like so much coping... I do agree that it isn't the most revolutionary gameplay wise. Yet, art isn't about how the technique is so groundbreaking, art is about how effective is at creating an emotional connection with the observer/enjoyer. In that sense, Stray is quite revolutionary, since it allows to experience something that hasn't been able to capture until recently. So yeah, I'm sorry you couldn't achieve catharsis with Stray, and I hope one day there would be a game that allows you to get to that emotional level.
What is this something that hasn't been able to be captured in games until recently? There have been plenty of games recently and throughout history that build a connection between the player and the main character through gameplay mechanics (Dark Souls, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Celeste, Spec Ops: The Line, etc.), so the game really isn't revolutionary at all in the way that you're describing it.
@@patick6642 being able to behave like a cat in an almost realistic way (given some artistic liberties) and view the world through the eyes of such animal. That, for what I know, it hasn’t been done prior.
@@tobi1314 There have been a good amount of games that have the player interacting with the world in the way an animal would, and with a much higher degree of player control than in Stray. Some that I can think of are:
- Carrion
- Aliens vs Predator 2010
- The Shelter series
- Gato Roboto
- Rain World, which was mentioned in this video
And probably a lot more that I haven't played. Also, the point about the player not having enough control over the cat still stands. The cat might be able to interact with the environment realistically, but that doesn't change the fact that the player themselves are just looking for the next ledge and then pressing x.
Bro, a dog's life released like 15 years prior (yeah it's a dumb game but still)
The emotional connection seems to stem from the existence of the cat, mostly. To which I say, that's not new, nor revolutionary, nor does it make a great game. How does including a cat equal revolutionary deep emotional connection?
Man, I was really excited for stray back when it was called HK project and was going to be set in the walled city of Kowloon... I can't even begin to describe how big of a backdown the final version is compared to that.
"Now that I think about it..." sums it up with the segment of what's an indie game.😊
OMG WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT STRAY I WAS LIKE huh this kinda sounds like rainworld THEN YOU SAID THAT
Oh my god I have never felt a video so much in my life. I found myself agreeing more and more with everything you said. I bought Stray because everyone was saying it was like Rain World, and was EXTREMELY dissapointed.
WHO SAID IT WAS LIKE RAIN WORLD OH MY GOD
the oscar and the game awards on their way to call a medium a genre.
It doesn't matter how much people love to say "opinion is opinion" and "the critics words isn't as revelant as the medium they critic", we need good critics more now than ever. People who are afraid to break the mainstream and give their own opinion.
For me, Pizza Tower undoubtedly was the indie game of the year for 2023. One designer/artist, one programmer, completely crowdfunded. Pizza Tower's the kind of game you play like, 4 times for a complete play-through.
It wasn't even nominated for best independent game, just best debut indie game, which it didn't win. That went to Cocoon, which was published by Annapurna.
Thank you for putting into words why I was so vehemently exhausted by the time I finished the game. It felt like a never ending maze of grinding. SO many mechanics that would be neat if they were more optional than they truly make it out to be.
You're right and Im gonna say it louder
I watched Stray win all these awards and get so much positive recognition so I bought it to play with my partner. About an hour in I couldnt believe how bored I was and how little of a game it actually was. One of the few games I've ever refunded.
Fae Tactics will always be one of my favorite indie games. It's criminally underrated for how well it connects the narrative/worldbuilding to the tactics gameplay and the larger SRPG format.
My favorite obscure Indie game is called Numina. It's an RPG maker game and comes with many of the caveats one would expect from that, but I think it has a truly special story delivered in an equally special way. The game's marquee gimmick is that you, the player, are literally one of the characters in the game, a voice in the protagonist's head. One of the benefits of this is that the protagonist is able to have a more defined personality than in many other JRPGs because he doesn't have to be an avatar for the player, but the best thing about it is that it encourages the player to consider themselves and how they would react to the events of the story. It goes to some really dark places and made me take some of the most brutal looks in the mirror in a long time. It may well not hit other people as hard as it did me - I suspect that I played it at just the right point in my life for it to hit - but I think it is well worth a shot. It has less than 50 reviews on steam. It's more popular on itch, but not by much, so give it a try!
I was already convinced with the Tevis Thompson namedrop, but actual real Droqen and Sylvie???
I'm lying, I was already convinced with Stray and Dave the Diver being mediocre. Great video, and I've got lots of things to say :D
The big one I think is about critics, because those are the people nominating and voting for games at the game awards. They're people who are mostly caring about the big games with tons of marketing because that's the games what will get them clicks. They're self selecting to care mostly about those, and to ignore indies. So when it's time to vote for the best indie, the best they can do is vote for the only one they've played (or, let's be realistic, the one they've heard about, it's even more apparent in the VR game category). Which is something you also see in the Steam Awards, except you'd expect reviewers to have more awareness of the medium than random players. People who care about indie games wouldn't have picked Dave the Diver as an indie, for every reason possible.
For the definition of indie, I think it mostly comes down to people conflating "indie studio" and "indie game", but again it's all marketing. The same way people consider all the second party Nintendo games first party. If you spend enough time trying to ignore what is a developer and what is a publisher, nothing makes any sense at the end. So yeah, if an indie studio makes a game it's automatically indie somehow. Which is an issue because now a lot of publishers focusing on indies are publicly traded, so I really don't know why a game published by Devolver or Team17 is different from a game published by EA under their EA Original label.
Devolver btw is another big part imo in the decline of indie coverage. Because the "main" indie games became a thing, for journalists it became okay to just... stop looking. Just wait for things to get to you, either because they have enough marketing budget, or because people doing the actual work of finding games (streamers are somehow better here) elevated them enough to prove people were interested.
This combined with Sony (the dominant platform, and still the one the vast majority of media focuses on) losing their team of indie curators/relations meant the focus fell back on the AAA-looking ones. And that's where you can even go one year back at the game awards, with Kena winning best indie. Another example of a game that does everything like AAAs but worse.
Anyways yeah, I agree that this is important, and it sucks because usually when you say stuff like that for games that are popular, people take personally any criticism about the stuff they like. But that stuff definitely has a huge impact on what games get to exist.
In the end yeah, best we can do is support those who deserve it.
That's where my rec comes in, it's my GOTY from last year, who only had one review (in EDGE, and that's only because the reviews got sent a key by another developer) :
It's Can of Wormholes! A puzzle game full of surprises and twists that never repeats itself, and also includes the best hint system ever created (every level has a playable sub level that teaches you the key move)