Quadcopter Ground Effect Vehicle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2023
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I have a question about this video. Why in the hell would a product or brand not want the free exposure you gave them in the earlier video? I don't get it.
When are you going to make a solar catamaran?
And fuck tupperware
Is there a such thing as negative ground effect? Like ceiling effect? I have noticed that when I fly smaller quadcopters and get too close to the ceiling, they tend to suck themselves up into the ceiling, usually sending ceiling popcorn all over the place!!!
Please make a video with your large props and silent motors, you could really be on to something in the silent drone world.
The t Company Should sponser you instead of Sending Their lawers
its a multilevel marketing product so probably shouldn't give it advertisement
It also might be to prevent losing the trademark. The more a brand name is used to describe a type of product, the higher chance it can be ruled as part of the common lexicon, stripping the trademark protection. This is what happened to Kleenex and a few other brands. It's also why Google was cracking down on "just Google it" because they didn't want to lose the TM if Google became synonymous with "searching online."
Just boycott em , same for any company; bad-practice=boycott 🤙
You can say it, tupperware (deliberately without a capital 😉).
I think the problem the company had is that none of those boxes are Tupperware. Bad for their brand equating an different product.
You were sooo close to re-discovering hovercrafts with that large skirt :D
Loving these projects and where they do or dont lead.
A fail teaches you something.
If at first you don't succeed, chase puffins
@@wbass243Could be worse - Could be running away from polar bears...
The t word company is probably fighting against becoming a generic trademark and losing rights to their cool word. In the end it's all very silly.
Love the ground effect videos, keep them coming!
Just so i am not mistaken, does the T word company name also end with "ware" ?
@@iloominaty it starts with t and ends with upperware, correct
Most advertisers WANT people associating your name with the items, it keeps you on their lips. For a company in bankruptcy, that's a pretty lame way to spend cash.
Yeah this boggles the mind.
If you're not cool enough, it's copyright infringement, and you have to pay the company to show their brand.
If you ARE cool enough, it's product placement, and the company pays you to show their brand.
Clown world.
is not copyright, is trademark and companies are obligated to protect it or they lose it
5:02 Bigger under driven props are always quiet. We have 4 LiDAR quads and two of them are for city use, with huge props (35 center to tip) to reduce noise as much as possible so we don't get nutties aggravated when using them to map historic buildings.
35" diameter or radius propellers?
@@shitass3931in case he doesn't reply let me try to help you out. He says center to tip, so it is the radius.
Additionally, I think it is likely for it to be in centimeters, not inches
@@MODElAIRPLANE100 thanks. was gonna say, 70" is ridiculous lol
70cm diameter = 28" which is a common propeller size, matches up.
it makes me wonder why they do not use Quad Zeppelin's. basically, a quadcopter that uses a loon style bladder to maintain neutral ounce in the air, with a mechanism to change it up or down, like a small compressor and pressure regulator sensor. then use the props to move it in the other dimensions. then it could e Super quiet, and maybe use less energy and thus have better battery range... worth testing I would say, depending on the end use I guess.
The bracing bars on the plate could have been used on the underside to act as a skirt to keep the plate higher and hence the “sticksion” from fast escaping air would be reduced
Awesome build!
"Generic storage container" got me off guard 😂
It's always fun to see people who hide behind lawyers get messed with.
I love seeing your projects and am curious to see where they lead you to!
Eh, this is actually one of those situations where they kind of have to do something about it. If their brand gets used too much to refer to generic storage containers and they don't actively act against it, it puts them in a bad legal position. They might effectively lose their trademark to "generification" legally if they don't stop it.
@@ska042 Interesting. I thought, since he is not directly commercializing the generic storage container, he could call it whatever he wanted to. However, I have to admit that I know little about patent laws.
"Generic storage Container"
@@ska042I'm surprised that it isn't already a lost trademark since I hear it used near universally.
@@ska042 They would be better off getting generification as that puts them in everyones mouth and as long as they produce a decent product for a decent price (doesn't have to be the best, cheapest, best value) they gonna rake in a greater profit then the competition simply because they are the go-to. If you go by a tupperware you look at tupperware first, not at no-name X.
Sure you can't grow indefinitely using this tactic and if your product is shite you gonna have massives problems. However it puts you into a really solid position that you can hold for decades.
ain‘t no way you can receive a cease and desist from tupperware😂😂
What I find so funny is … these T lawyers have to make themselves useful, right? So they end up sending a C&D letter to a guy who uses their products in creative ways, has an interested audience on a popular platform, doesn’t pay advertising and now has become a joke because of the sense of importance over themselves. Upcycle Factor containers from now on, Daniel ☺️😂👍🏼
That is real lol
the reason why it "sticks" to the water when it contacts it is due to surface adhesion from the water, if you ever put a flat piece of board in the water and tried to lift it up you can feel it just stick like a weak glue
So could you cover it in some sort of hydrophobic substance to help stave off that effect?
(bear with me here) Would it lessen this effect if you were to use say a checkered pattern like a chessboard, but every black square is raised up by maybe 1/2 an inch (1cm), into a point like a pyramid??? I feel like as the tip of the pyramid tapers, the less adhesion to surface area there is.
@@colon3_ I'd guess that would work yes, as there would be many air gaps and it would suck less
@@matthewturnipseed5182 Or just use a couple two liter bottles or the like on the bottom legs to float. The foam pieces have too much surface area. For air and water applications this is bad. Unless its on a wing or prop, and used for lift. Look at some Air/Sea planes. The big boat like ballasts they have on the bottom legs/landing gear... Other people have used pool noodles, those work great on smaller drones. Not sure it would have the buoyancy for this big boy. So Id say 2 liter bottles.
Spray it with a hydrophobic coating. Boom. Problem solved.
Wait, tupawupa box company actually sent you a cease and desist for showing their product under a positive light? Incredible
Probably more because he was using their name when referring to products NOT made by them.
They would rather have us store our farts, than praise ingenuity.
@@tin2001 that makes more sense, if true. Imagine tupiwoop execs looking at their endless catalog of products trying to figure out if that box is made by them.
The whole "ground effect" series is quite entertaining. I guess a cheap smoke machine would help quite a lot in understanding vortexes and potential behaviors before even going on water. I think you used something similar in a previous video.
The effect you are describing at 9:03 is the air recirculating around getting pulled through the inwash while pushing down on the top of foam boards. It goes away once you are far enough from the ground allowing the air to go straight down breaking the circulation.
Tupperware sent you a cease and desist letter???? Wtf
I really appreciate your willingness to test designs even though they may not be efficient, its really cool to see them come to life!
For stability you need to put bracing type dividers between each prop zone
With your skirt at low altitude air flowing under the props has to escape to the sides, thus creating a venturi effect between water and skirt, lowering pressure and ultimately attracting your craft towards the water.
Same effect as when a ship moves close to a wall or to another ship, water in between has to escape quickly and sucks both ships towards each other.
This increase in speed only happens significaantly when both objects are very close to each other, and is not significant when overing a bit higher / farther from the obstacle.
Great observation @leodurez9631 ! This is exactly why the skirt doesn't work well when it is close to the water. It is not intuitive, but the faster air is causing a low-pressure zone under the skirt and sucking the copter down, not pushing it up as desired. Remember, wings work because the faster air over the top is a low-pressure zone. In this case, you have inadvertently made an upside-down wing. Nonetheless, I love all of your videos, please keep producing and I will keep smashing the like button!
Cool. The best ground effect I've experienced was an MCPx hovering inverted an inch over a gym floor. It was actually hard to make it touch the floor. The tips would touch based on the angle but the center rotor button wouldn't!
What if you put your foam support pieces on the underside? Could you make air directing channels to increase stability? Anything to make it more stable than an air hockey puck.
Also, it is amazingly cool to see experimental aircraft concepts play out in real life. Please keep it up.
The soft ceiling is probably due to a vortex from the thrust hitting the ground and circling back around to come back down on top of the blades, reducing efficiency until it powers through it.
I was thinking that he'd created a low-pressure zone in the center of the sheet, a bit like a vacuum. Yeah, I guess that doesn't make alot of sense when I think about your explanation. But that's some interesting phenomena as well, and should be useful for engineering something. I would venture it doesn't work while in motion?
The reason for the "sealing" might be the transition between generating lift due to pressure difference and Impuls based trust. Propellers for aircraft are designed to accelerate big amounts of air with a low pressure differential. That's also why you don't get much better power efficiency at very low altitudes, you basicly stall out the props.
You should try props with more but smaller diameter blades and less pitch.
I think it’s Bernoulli. Fast air below, suction downward.
@@tcveatch Mhh.. Yea, but I think the ground effect is more or less the inverse of the bernoulli effect, or it eliminates it's effects.
When the air is compresses underneath the vehicle, the fast moving low pressure air directly behing the props sucks in the air from the higher pressure underneath (in a vortex) instead of pulling it partly around the bottom of the vehicle, including from the front.
I guess that's all the effects working in a complex fluid system at the same time. (maybe creating the ground effect). And the description might depend on the way you look at it. 🤔
If a day could be 4 times as long, I would love to study such things in more detail to figure out how such complex systems work, and which effect comes in and out of significance. 😅
Hey, I have had success using resonance analysis tools in Solidworks to identify issues like you used the high speed camera to identify. You can compare the results of a simulation to a black box log to verify. Mechanically solving these problems iteratively in CAD is very satisfying! Love your videos sir.
This was a really cool video with lots of different physical effects in evidence - ground effect, vortex ring state, surface tension, EM force, and quite a few others besides 😀
Big props to you Daniel!
oh hey, I used to play with that effect when I was younger ! I had on of these tiny toy quad without any automatic stabilisation that I just could not fly without crashing it everywhere, but I noticed that if I gave it just enough throttle to get off the ground (flat tiling in this case), it would hover at about 1-2 cm from the floor, self-stabilize when tilted and never really get any higher.
so in the end I had a lot of fun racing my little remote controlled air-hockey puck around ^^
There was a uk microlight aircraft built in the 80s called the Chevron. It was designed to takeoff into ground effect, accelerate, then climb.
My 8th grade science teacher had a "hovercraft" which was an upside-down table with a hoover vacuum, some kind of tarp that would fill with air and blow it out the bottom, a chair screwed to it to sit on, and a Hoover vacuum powering it. It was so frictionless that with extension cords we were able to coast down the whole hallway with one push.
13:10 Had seen this process used for analyzing machines vibrations, very useful! Nice to see it available
This makes things tingle. Building something that worked closer to a jet moto style hover craft is a dream.
the chord of the wing for a prop is not the diameter of the swept area, it is the width of the propeller itself, which is trivially small
That sound profile from the huge props would be a super cool rabbit hole to go down. Would be fun to explore just how slow a prop could be turned on a quad without completely losing control authority.
I’m most impressed by how quiet those big props were! I think you should do a project to make the quietest quad copter you can. Mark Rober had a video recently with a really strange prop design that was supposedly really quiet.
Toroidal Props, though they arent all that much quieter, they shift the noise down the scale to make it "less abrasive" or less annoying to human ears. They are actually very close to normal props in terms of actual Decibel measurements. So we perceive it as quieter.
The suction effect might be helped by rounding/shaping the bottom edge of the skirt such that that the air pressure is guided out under the skirt.
I love your creations, they are very cool and your process is thorough and clear.
Wingspan in the case of your copter would more correctly be the length of your motor support arms I would think, but using the over sized props was a great experiment.
I'm so glad those propellers got some use!
How do you again and again bring i out amazing videos relating to my life?
I just flew my new Quadcopter and now I'm watching this.
RE the floats under the props. It looks like as the props spin up, the rotation of the floats cause the water in contact with the floats to flow outwards from the float center (centripetal force). This cause the water to evacuate under the floats. You might experiment with texturing the bottom of the floats (hot iron), such that the rotation draws in water (iow make a spiral texture).
Awesome video!
Regarding displaying power instead of current: You could use mavexplorer (part of mavproxy) and use that to plot current*voltage, as you can easily define your own graphs there. If you do a lot of Ardupilot log analysis it's worth checking out
i learn a hell of a lot from these videos keep up the great work man
Great video and project Daniel! Loved it all but particularly the vibration piece. Great experimenting with ground effect!
As I understand it, decreasing voltage means higher amperage for same power, thereby more heat for same power. If anything is seems more logical to increase voltage, to reduce heat generated for any given power output. Within the voltage range the motors and controller can handle well.
Reducing voltage limits the possible power output, and thereby possible heat generation at full throttle, but it still produce more heat for a given power output.
So can we hope for experiments trying to achieve low noise levels, using things like large props?
That soft ceiling effect would be interesting to see with some kind of smoke stream of course the props would diffuse the smoke a lot but my guess is that a vortex is created making a slight down draft over the quadcopter at that specific elevation.
You should get a fog machine to visualize airflow. It would probably help explain the "soft ceiling" you mentioned at 9:00
You should spray some of that hydrophopic coating on the underside of the foam panel. That will pretty much completely prevent the craft from being pulled down by surface adhesion if it happens to touch the water.
Put a skirt around that. Simple percale cotton cut for a sheet will do it - and you've got a super-efficient hover-craft w/ ground effect capability.
You can play around air flow path - if you add some channeling foam pieces, position of each propeler would be either raised, or air could be distributed through saw tooth like edge skirt around. Now when one side goes up, air from rear motors will go towards less resistance path - and destabilise craft more.
Without channeling/enclosure for prop wings you have a lot of pressure losess especially in radial direction, which maybe contributes to vibrations - each propeler hits wake from its neigbours.
For mixed case when both pressure and volume is needed just lookup for industrial fans enclosures - they arent straight, but slightly narrowing/ rarely expanding. It allows for some design tweaking, where we would like to find sweetspot for motor efficiency and flow requrements.
wrapping central unit in some foil, would reduce air resistance at fan "inlet", its not that obivous in steady flight, but in hoovering mode You calibrated stabiliser, and in horisontal flight, its adds uneven air wake for front/end fans.
improving the design of the skirt with holes would end up reinventing the hover craft, with its flexible skirt which makes the altitude of the ground effect higher and provide a margin of error when the waves comes closer or when the hovercraft loses altitude a bit. The hovercraft skirt makes it more efficient as well
With the skirtless hovercraft quad, if you make ducts from prop level upward it woulld help a lot
Really interesting! Thanks Daniel.
wire hoist for easy lift off force test, also a skirt makes some of the airflow circulate back up, coanda effect, ie the air flow sticks to the bottom and sides of the foam, titanic met its ice berg, the water. so what was the power savings of the quad hover craft vs non-ground effect. yep helium floating is free, you just push it around in the sky.
You probably though of this, but putting a reversible ESC on your forward prop would probably allow you to stop easier. Great video!
The ground effect is really noticeable when hovering an RC helicopter upside down. That why you see pictures of models hovering with the blades skimming the grass. It looks really hard, but it's easier than a normal hover because the model is just bouncing on the ground effect, and you can really reduce the throttle. With something small like the Blade MCPx in a gym with a smooth floor, the rotor tips often scrape the floor.
About 1 to 2 decades ago was the Moller Flying car. They had a flying saucer configuration with a centrally mounted pilot. Eight horizontally mounted fans provided ground effect lit for this experimental air craft. Subsequent models never achieved much more than a hundred feet off the ground. Perhaps a bit more than that.
The reason the foam skirt would get "suction cupped" to the water is bc of the surface tension of the water and the microscopic dimples in the foam board. 👍👍
Really nice work - as usual!
Interesting experiments. Thanks for taking the time to share this stuff.
it sticking to the floor and in that weird 3foot spot looks a lot like what the Coriolis effect does. Not sure how to apply it, but it just looks like it. Awesome video!
Need bracing between the boom arms and using a controller with betaflight and adding some RPM filters would go a long way for stability.
The suction to the water was surface tension, you can stop that by adding tiny little "ice skates" to the underside so that they prevent the entire surface from touching the water at once
I got to ride aboard the SR-N4 hovercraft from Ramsgate to Calais in 1969. Well, actually I was the annoying youngest child and lobbied loudly for us to use the hovercraft instead of the conventional ferry, and my parents humored me. It's telling that regular ferries are still used even decades after the opening of the Chunnel, yet the hovercraft are no more.
Love to see the transition from ground effect quadcopter to an overpowered lift hovercraft
This is essentially how i teach people to manually fly quads, I get them to lift the throttle so it turns into a hovercraft and learn to control it on the floor before they add Z axis.
8:50 that suction could be the air pushed down and out by the props getting "venturi-ed" (sped up) in the small gap between the foam and the water, creating a low pressure zone that "sucks" the hoverboard down.
I never watched your stuff before, this was fun! Also love seeing a local guy making really cool projects!
BTW, Hovercraft was a registered trademark by Saunders-Roe aircraft company (later Westland) so other manufacturers of commercial vehicle couldn’t be called it hovercraft, they need to be called Air Cushioned Vehicle.
Speaking of Saunders-Roe, they built the first jet powered Seaplane, Saunders-Roe SR.A/1, pretty cool project.
YES! More drone videos!
Pushing the air under the shield towards the water increases dynamic pressure (and reduces static) so getting suctioned down is pretty logical.
Depending on distance and air volume of cause.
you could orient the motor/prop to stabilize the banking at high speed, front motor should be tilted to blow a bit towards the front, so when the quad tilts up, the front motor will be less horizontal and loose vertical lift, stabilizing. Same but opposite for the back motor. The other effect is that at high speed, less air will enter the front props, because the top face which is vacuuming is oriented towards the back, making the lift less
You need to synchronize the blade weight (propeller position) to be exact mirrors (diagonally) to minimize the vibration, or use different propeller style that is always balanced.
When the Jiggle rap dropped, this old man was laughing with gusto. Thanks for that!
The “soft ceiling” you mentioned the skirtless version has is exactly what you’d expect for a working ground effect.
You need to make a course on how you do the basics of these things, such as tuning the remote, servos etc
That freefly amplify feature is pretty amazing. I know that special software exist to process and see vibration from video. Didn’t know that freefly had that feature.
no way! @3:00 you are one of my favorite channels, experimenting and always coming up, and now your officially recognized by insert brand name here!
congratulations on officially being on the radar of such a pocket book wielding giant!
LOL I like how you went from let's see how slow we can make it move to it's not good at high speed. Awesome detail as always. Thanks for sharing this one with us. :)
Bought a $250 quadcopter about 10 years ago. Small/medium sized. Had a thin plastic body, that when mounted helped trap thrust air. This has the benefit of giving it ground effect flight. Hovering roughly 1-3 inches depending on power setting. Would not fly if lifted up higher. Run it off a step, and it would drop down to GE height. It gave me about 50% more flights time. I could run up and down the street/sidewalks. Clearing fresh cut grass off my drive and sidewalk. Whole time using hardly any throttle. Then had to give a decent boost of power to lift it past this GE height.
Sorry, just always thought it was a neat little thing. And then stumble on this video.
You could add a spoiler or wing to the front to add downforce proportional to speed at the front of it.
I like the analysis of GEV drone vs. fixed wing, hovercraft, and rotorcraft
It looked like the instability at speed was due to angle-of-attack lift generation from the flat areas of the cut-out plate... even though those flat areas were just left over from the sheet with the prop holes cut in it. You might try prop skirts that are a little taller and stabilized in space with a mesh vs. the foam plate. Also, before ditching the idea, what about trying a horizontal stabilizer to counteract the pitching-up tendency at speed. Some software fixes are probably also required, so when underway the vehicle is not just trying to stay flat, but in a pitched forward orientation that avoids the angle-of-attack lift generation.
Reminds me of the difference between a direct drive speed 400 and going to GWS gear drive’s with huge props back in the brushed days lol. Went from sounding like a weed whacker to a ceiling fan lol
Interesting... Maybe you may want to design something that moves weight forward when the front goes up, and same for the sizes? My brother worked on something like that in the mid 90s for the French carrier, that's how they can land planes flat in the middle of a storm: move weights.
Basically you reinvented the first hover craft. Love the projects :)
Awesome video! My custom 7" frame flies in ground effect effortlessly 👌
The suction to the water you saw at 9:00 is probably the venturi effect. The fast flowing air between the water and foam makes a low pressure high, velocity area! Therefore sucking the foam (and quadcopter) down
This video is also a great example of the Wagon Wheel effect. The rotors look like they are barley spinning on camera but they are moving pretty fast in real life.
The AVROcar VZ-9AV and the AVRO Project 1794 aka "SILVER BUG" and "project Y-2", had similar ground effect stability problems.
The plates kill me every time 😂. They are the same ones my parents had when I was growing up and I've never seen them anywhere else. And my word, how petty of Tupper...those one people. Cool video like normal 👍.
Some very simple front end aero would help immensely, it would only effect movement at higher speed and only take effect at a specific "fail safe" type angle
i can say just by the thumbnail, that this video is gonna be great!!
I was just thinking about that weird hover point that you made, something about a sort-of pocket of resistance at low altitude. I wonder if the air temperature shift at that height could be the cause. A warm to cold air mixture point could cause minor turbulence in the air currents at that level.
I love your videos and generally scoff at peanut gallery comments about minor errors but if anyone wants to know… Those birds are not puffins they are coots (Fulica americana) I just live right over in Ellensburg. It’s really fun to watch your footage of Seattle.
beautiful shot at 11:06, keep up the eye pleasing cinematography
Love the use of the CNC here. Just wondering tho... ever got your bits jammed with the blue film backing? I remove mine but I wonder if leaving it at the back while cutting gives you cleaner cuts.
8:53 it might the becourse weird things like bernoulli effects, the flat surface interactions between the foam and the water, if the air flow faster some places it should create some form of "suction" between them making it feel sticky.
9:00 maybe see if you can interduse some smoke and one of those flat lasers.
Maybe you make giant vortexis that swirl around like big helicopters do, the big plate probably amplifies the effect they course. Wen you get far enough up they probably destabilis course no more rebound of air from ground?
The weird middle altitude zone is probably from the top of the convex/vortexs like on a wing tip washing back down on top of it pushing it back down✓
Thanks for posting!
Yes, was going to say this. Winglets, ducting, or a cowl should make a big difference, up to and including the point it becomes a hovercraft!
damn that 30" humm at the end
The ground effect King has blessed us once again 🙏
Ground-effect quadcopter has been done. Check the AeroVelo Atlas. It even carried a human.
3:51 someone literally gave you massive props ;)
Interesting video. A props happy place is in a free air environments where air can be pushed and pulled. Without a place for the air to escape from the bottom it would have trouble at higher pressures if it was not designed for it. There is a sweet zone for every prop.
Something like a reverse incline blower wheel can provide much higher pressures at low clearance’s. It would have to be ducted.
Great! I would love to hear more about quiet quad concsepts!