Spending money on SU 57 will make sense instead of Rafale. Especially in truncated numbers say 36 or 54 that too off-the-shelf As such move will save money, time and technical edge. Next buy EJ 200 & AL 31 FN Engine tech. Make deals with israeli company to develop weapons & Avionics This way will lead india towards self sustainment in fighter platform.
Indians relationship with Ru is not just transactional as Shiv mentions. USSR/RU used its Veto many times to help India and even positioned its naval assets to warn US during the cold war. This is not just a buy/sell relationship. Its very deep and strategic, built over many decades , based on Trust and mutual strategic interest. No one will sell you sensitive Technology if they don't trust you. Gulf States have more money to blow on weapon's and if it was purely transactional they would have all the latest , sensitive technology, But they don't.
Complete BS.. Ukraine proved Russian army and weapons are Overhyped shitt. Indians dream of us lifestyle than Russian lifestyle anyday 😂.. Yes we are unabashedly hypocrites
Yes the Soviet/Russians did helped us sooo many times in this successfull partnership, India too put a lot of money into the Russian economy. We were one of the largest procurers of Russian military equipments and were completely dependent on their tech for a LONG TIME! Which ultimately helped them. Just like Shiv said, we had a partnership in their 5th gen program and invested a big sum of money ($30-100Million) which ultimately helped them produce their jets...
The Su-57E is a great aircraft with a top notch engine. Plus it comes with possible TOT for the adaptive 5th gen engine which it will never get from the west nor will it get any source codes from it as well. With Su-57E we can integrate it more closely with the indian eco system.
Bad idea, we are looking to modernize our ecosystem, it may fit into the existing ecosystem well, but not the future which we want to build. So its a bad idea .
@@s.k.vigneshkarthikeyan2887 - Just because India has ambitions of building a 5th gen fighter... Its not going to happen overnight ... Aircraft design & development takes decades... And India doesn't possess the expertise or experience in designing a fighter from the ground up... And India expects to skip multiple generations of fighter aircraft and hit the jackpot...? The Americans won't even transfer basic jet engine technology to India... They won't sell the F-35 to India... Especially since India acquired the S-400 system which could easily track the F-35's radar signature... It will take India at least 20 - 30 years to develop even a basic 5th gen fighter... By which time most countries will be working on their 6th gen aircraft... The Chinese already have the J-20 ... Which Pakistan is desperate to get its hand on... India will be a couple of decades behind if that situation was to unfold.
Shiv Just to give facts to your audience, Krivak class Frigate, this ship was envisaged by Russian Navy before annexing of Crimea. Originally Russia needed this Frigate for their own navies, however Ukraine was supposed to supply Gas Turbine Engines, as these frigates had Two DS- 71 and DT-59 boost engines manufactured by Zorya designed and Mashproekt(Ukraine) By annexing crimea by Russia, Ukraine halted to supply Gas Turbine engines to these frigates. Russia Gas Turbine engines are not as reliable and powerful for these frigates. Hence Russian offered heavy discounts for customer who went in for this purchase. Russia did not have a problem selling this advanced frigate to India and Ukraine did not have problem delivering already manufactured Gas Turbine engines to India. India got great discount of USD 300 million on these ships. India was pragmatic not to loose two advanced ships with 3 years delivery timeframe & technology transfer. Only fool would have turned down this proposal as it was win-win for all three sides. India already has 6 Talwar class frigates wherein Indian navy is super happy with its firepower in this frigate type.
No its not, there is a reason we left the project. No point going back. Its like getting back to your ex. They will NEVER GIVE YOU TECHNOLOGY. thats how they fooled us for the last 20 years
I think it would be worth going with SU 75 instead of going for Tejas MK2. Let's complete the project of Tejas MK1A. merge MRFA and Tejas MK2 And procure SU 75 in large numbers with full TOT from Russia with integration of Indian systems with India specific enhancements. then, in future, if SU 75 is really capable platform, then replace all our aging foreign platforms with su 75. Finally, by that time we would be able to make AMCA completely on indigenous knowledge, experience, skill and capability coming with manufacturing of SU 75. Option 2, let's re-join FGFA with integration of modern Indian systems and India specific enhancements. Scrap MRFA and Tejas MK2. Buy a good number of SU 57 along with marine versions and use the manufacturing experience to develop AMCA and TEDBF. Here we have to remember that, even if the US gives us so-called full TOT for GE engines in Tejas program, that machine is only going to work as spy for their military and government which is only going to render you as permanently dependent country on them. They can take leverage of the situation of dependency of host country. Russia is reliable in that sense that they at least don't bother about internal affairs or our relations with other countries. Option 3 adopt both the approaches mentioned in para 1 and 2 And there is no competition between indigenous AMCA and SU 57 Because when India can operate so many jets from different countries, why can’t SU 57 and AMCA coexist? Su 57 with maximum possible work share and Indian production line is going to support the AMCA and other indigenous programmes instead of competing with them. I think indigenous versus imported aircraft narrative is deliberately being raised to distract India from capacity building with respect to Air Force.
@@s.k.vigneshkarthikeyan2887 But there exist a capability gap vis-a-vis Chinese J-20 and J-35 fighters that we need to respond to in a meaningful timeframe. The best option capability vise will be F-35 but its not available for us. So the only option remains is Su-57 till the time the AMCA gets operationalised. The question is that IAF hasn't shown any interest in buying them so what do they know that isn't public info. The IAF seems confident in Rafale and upgraded Su-30 MKI to take on all the challenges in foreseeable future. Are we willing to take that risk. Only IAF and time can tell that.
Well one thing to add in the context of the Tushi Frigate: Russia was building it for its own Navy but that war for Crimea between Russia & Ukraine in 2014 resulted in Ukraine stopping engine which were required to build the frigates. So in 2019 Modi cracked a deal where he said he will get the Ukranian engines and that will allow Russia to complete the incomplete hull which was there in Kaliningrad. But the condition was India should get major discounts for these frigates. Russians agreed. So we got the engines from Ukraine, gave it to Russia and now we have received one of the two frigates which are being built. Also we got a good discount on all of them. Aapda ko awsar mein badal diya good decision as we should get such warships in more numbers. One such ship closer to Bangladesh and they will pee their pants as these carry Brahmos missiles. Good for power projection.
Pakistan airforce will have J-31 within 2 years . India should go for F35 or SU57 at the earliest . AMCA will not happen till 2040 . Tejas development started in 1983 and we still dont have them properly.
WHO THINKS IT IS RIGHT… WHO THINKS IT IS WRONG…. INDIA TODAY WOULD NOT TAKE IT…. WE SPEAK ONLY WHAT GEORGE SOROS ASK US (India today) TO SAY… Bull shi-t
I think it would be worth going with SU 75 instead of going for Tejas MK2. Let's complete the project of Tejas MK1A. merge MRFA and Tejas MK2 And procure SU 75 in large numbers with full TOT from Russia with integration of Indian systems with India specific enhancements. then, in future, if SU 75 is really capable platform, then replace all our aging foreign platforms with su 75. Finally, by that time we would be able to make AMCA completely on indigenous knowledge, experience, skill and capability coming with manufacturing of SU 75. Option 2, let's re-join FGFA with integration of modern Indian systems and India specific enhancements. Scrap MRFA and Tejas MK2. Buy a good number of SU 57 along with marine versions and use the manufacturing experience to develop AMCA and TEDBF. Here we have to remember that, even if the US gives us so-called full TOT for GE engines in Tejas program, that machine is only going to work as spy for their military and government which is only going to render you as permanently dependent country on them. They can take leverage of the situation of dependency of host country. Russia is reliable in that sense that they at least don't bother about internal affairs or our relations with other countries. Option 3 adopt both the approaches mentioned in para 1 and 2 And there is no competition between indigenous AMCA and SU 57 Because when India can operate so many jets from different countries, why can’t SU 57 and AMCA coexist? Su 57 with maximum possible work share and Indian production line is going to support the AMCA and other indigenous programmes instead of competing with them. I think indigenous versus imported aircraft narrative is deliberately being raised to distract India from capacity building with respect to Air Force.
Dear Friend SU-57 is not true stealth fighter. It’s Radar Cross Section is 5Sq Meter with 100 kms away can be picked up by 4.5 generations fighters. It does have RAM - Radar Absorbent Material in key areas and its engine is not IR signature can be detected by MIG 21 fighter. SU 57 needs to have advanced Avionics and electronics jammer to conduct SEAD mission ( Suppression of Enemy Air Defence). Hence India is not purchasing half baked stealth fighter. It’s Rafale has more sophisticated Avionics and Spectra to conduct SEAD mission. Regards, Dr Girish Kashyap
@@viaanenterprises8984 - The Su 57 has never been officially tested against any radar systems... But yet you're pulling out a radar cross section figure posted by western propaganda sources...? By your logic India should purchase the obese... completely unstealthy F-21 ...? Basically invest in a F-16 / F-18 platform thats over 50 years old...?
@@viaanenterprises8984 stealthy is a gambel bcz india cant afford such maintainence like US doing using f-22 and f-35 while comparing US military budget .and SU-57 still in the development and india can provide funds to improve more things by dealing with shukoi
Do you feel that our experts will not be able to find out whether it’s an “opportunity or distraction” when you are discussing about it in an open forum. Come on wake up!!!
Historically, persons like you have also been produced in India, and are making such imbecilic comments. Does not mean that it takes 50 years, historically to create a fool! There are many of your capabilities level who are only say 20 years old
Agree with Shiv. I think we should abandon the Tejas Mk2 program and divert all resources to AMCA and quickly realise the MRFA (wisdom dictates it should be Rafale). Have MK1a in large numbers with a steady assembly line churning out 24 fighters a year if not more. India cannot have mk2 and AMCA running simultaneously. We just don't have the resources.
Rafale is the best option , safran has also promosed to help develop our own engine which is the most important. France also asked india to join 6th gen fighter program so Rafale js the best option . 2 nd best option would be F-15ex from US but many many issues regarding the relationship.
We should buy SU57, because we are incapable of making our own engines and AMCA will come only by 2060 or 2070 that too if we are able to make a deal with an engine manufacturer.
Go with a large combined Air Force-Navy order including local production for Rafales in MMRCA. But it might be a good idea to go for a few squadrons of Su-57's off the shelf separately just so India has some experience operating a 5th Gen fighter (might also help with AMCA development) and make whatever necessary changes & customizations once you have them. Will also boost Squadron numbers and give India some level of stealth capability much earlier than if we keep waiting on the AMCA (meanwhile even LCA's aren't being produced quickly enough in big numbers yet).
Instead for HAL producing 12 Sukhoi fighter jets for 24000 crores which is a 5th generation fighter Instead India can buy 12 to 15 Su 57 fighters from Russia
India must do an HF-24 when one of the greatest aircraft designers of his time Dr. Kurt Tank aided us. A top indigenous India aircraft of its time. Now we need to get people of the calibre of the late, Roddam Narasimha and come of with a top of line aircraft. USSR-RUSSIAN weapons are more often top-rate and Russia is our loyal brother. My friend flew the Mikoyan Gurevich-21. An objective and a brilliant person he said it was the top-most aircraft of its kind during its period! No one can spoil the Indo-Russia terms no matter how much money and propaganda they do. Indians have great gratitude for USSR-RUSSIA and we are also a loyal country. We are not like Recep Tayyip Erdoğan who switches sides in Nano-seconds. While we have brilliant people sadly as of now people with fake degrees including doctoral or with soft-degrees are being placed as experts in top-positions. Stupidity of the highest order. P.S. India must start manufacturing advanced jet engines. The Paper-Tiger China can not still make them but is getting great help from their Israeli allies. Most military equipment in China is older U.S. versions which they have obtained from Israel. Mr. Pompeo had warned Israel to stop this. Also most fake data on China is planted by their friends to make China look a great power. The only country which has the military power to take on the USA is Russia.
It would be suicide for India to go with the SU-57 - the Rafale is a far more capable platform. It is a matter of great shame that India lags Turkey and South Korea on Stealth tech but the SU-57 is anything but stealthy. Our best Stealth option is the join Japan and the UK on their 6th gen fighter platform.
You cant be good in everything , unless you are US with a 27 Trillion GDP or China with 17 some Trillion GDP . India has a very successful space program that took a generations to build. Turkey and S.Korea don't have those capabilities.
Su 57 claims to have capabilities to detect 5th Gen fighters which are all about stealth. Once you detect it, it doesn't remain a 5th gen stealth aircraft anymore and becomes dinner for Su 57. Su 57 is more lethal in terms of firepower than F35. Also there are reports that US has built backdoors in F35 and is well know to play games. It would be suicide for India to buy anything American in large numbers, unless they offer 100% TOT and localised manufacturing (which Americans will never agree) If simply throwing money and buying off the shelf was an option, we would be having 100s of aircrafts under MMRCA already by now.
@@bugbuggy3866 Russia claims a lot of things, the delivery side sometimes leaves something to be desired, 2 years of war and it still does not have control of the airspace in Ukraine, when it has an overwhelming superiority in the number of fighters, and before the arrival of the F16s it also had superiority technologically, why Russia can't dominate the skies, it shouldn't even need a Su-57 to do so, and yet the Russian air force has great difficulties operating in Ukraine. Why? The Su-57 is beautiful and in mechanical terms it seems excellent, but nowadays there are no dogfights, everything is done long distance, what counts are the radar, electronics and missiles, and Russia is not exactly known for the quality of its electronics components, sure the missiles are good, but if your opponent sees you minutes before you see him and manages to fire a missile long before you do? Well, the Su-57 is beautiful.
Dev & Shiv Let me break the news to News Podcast that currently MRFA of 114 is non starter due to budgetary constraints. Government is talking to Indian Airforce of buying additional 36 rafale fighter + 26 naval Rafale M with option of additional 22 Rafale M is only import on Govt table. Tejas Mark 1A planned procurement of 200 fighters + Tejas mark 2 which is also going to be manufactured around 250-300 numbers( 200 Mark 2 for IAF, around 100+ for export) and AMCA 5.5 Generation to be in quantity range of 170 numbers will make up for IAF squadron strength with 10 squadrons of Armed UAV like Ghatak will make up for their numbers
Where exactly are the engines going to come from for so these Tejas versions. Without engines there are just going to stay on the ground. Indian GTRE has produced ghanta in reality in last 75y
There has been no discussion on how reliable the Russian engine technology is. In the past the downtime of Russian engines has not been comparable to Western engines.
Great Podcast! One suggestion for the host, don't know about your personal defence knowledge, but Fighter Jets & other expensive artilleries are the most talked about Defence acquisition and if you are hosting a defence show, you should not mistake names repeatedly. You guys are doing great! Shiv is superb! Buckle up buddy!
The point you made . The proposition of going for a few squadrons of Su 57 rather than a large number of "4.5" generation aircraft actually makes sense . Go for 2 or 3 squadrons of Su 57 . Invest all your time energy towards AMCA and the the Tejas MkII (to make up the numbers). Just like the Zorawar it will be the Chinese who will show us the way . There is this talk of them supplying their "5th generation " fighters to Pakistan. We will be forced to do so.
And and how many years will it take Russia to produce these squadrons? They will first need 5-7 years to finish the order for the Russian air force, if they do not increase the production rate.
Prime minister Modi instead of building ghatia infrastructure spending most of money of the Government. Instead he should buy foreign artillery, tanks, fighter jets. Unless lndia has a strong military nobody will give importance.
Its not about government its made to run a country & handle the people money as taxes wisely Wether its America USA 🇺🇸- F-35 or wether its Russia 🇷🇺- SU-57 Or our AMCA which is tooo late Yes we should go for Russia SU-57
Russian su 57 will be the logical choice to go with instead of spending money on European or French systems on which we can't even add our indigenously made weapons or can upgrade with indigenously developed systems in future, russian platforms never had this restrain and we developed most of our weapons systems on thr platforms only
I wonder the two hosts as confused as they are like the IAF and GOI, started discussing SU57 and ended up discussing Atma Nirbhar bharat. There was hardly any content regarding 5 th Gen figjter or even the SU57. Theytalk as if f35 is on offer from US. Serious lack of content and piecemeal and skin deep knowledge about fighter aircraft for the hosts shows. God help India today
I believe in my limited knowledge of Defence process 1. F35 very very very unlikely as we already have S400 Triumph 2. AMCA IMPACT while it's still some time to come up 3. Su 57 and or 75 with Stealth technology - their own rate of procurement is low and it's still evolving 😮 Plus US sanction even though they are or seen non committed to Ge engine, trying tonpush their own platform, ( 🥕) And asdie on sideline - all of this unnecessarily delayed MRFA delivery of likely Rafael
AMCA will never roll out at least until 2035!! By then, China would have 6th Gen. India's airforce needs more Rafales. Buy them outright until we develop our own 5th Gen. Develop 6th Gen with Italy or other nations in the meantime. India urgently needs 100 Rafales
Discussion in IAF ranks and media revolves more on achieving 42 squadrons rather than capabilities. Numerically large number of 3rd and 4th gen crap is useless for offense when the LAC is filled with SAMs and radars. When Pak also officially inducts the J35, IAF will wake up and start panicking. When China has J20 and J35 across the border today, IAF is not concerned. The MRCA is waste of the whole country's time, and discourse. MRCA requirements are obsolete on arrival and hardly meets the country realistic needs in a future war with China. The Israeli air force is a prime example of small number of squadrons but extremely lethal and effective. India should play the Su57 card with the US to get good offer on F35s.
China has both numerical and technological superiority over the Indian air force currently. It seems like IAF does not understand stealth and what to do with it. This explains why they are still stuck with the MRCA.
India will not buy any major offensive Russian weapons in the foreseeable future due to geopolitics…Atmanirbhar is the only long term solution, but the key question on stealth fighters for Bharat is, given AMCA may only be available starting 2035, Pakistan getting Chinese J31s by 2030, how do we deal with it in the interim! The only viable options are getting say 50 Su-57s or F-35s, till AMCA comes, and my sense is no foreign stealth jets, while we will try to mitigate the risks with better A2AD capability and large number of hypersonic HGV missiles to threaten our enemies!
There are many types of clowns in this world, some are clowns others are good clowns, and then there are super / absolute clowns like shiv tharoor and the IAF !..... I mean seriously, I am not even an mechanical engineer here but these clowns fail to even mention that the joint development of FGFA was shelved ? I mean the requirement of IAF was a 2 seater version of PAKFA.....for a stealth fighter the most stupid request was for a second pilot! 😂 I mean this is not just adding an additional person, it's about adding additional life support systems, controls, ejection seats etc... and when the whole purpose of a STEALTH FIGHTER is to lower the signature? In a world where the world is going towards zero pilots aka drones IAF and tharoor wants to run a fighter like a PSU, I don't know why the defense experts take these clowns seriously 😅
Why doesn’t anyone talk about acquiring stealth fighters as part of MRFA? At least 50% of the 114.. China already has 2 type of stealth fighters in large numbers, Pakistan will get some soon. AMCA is at least 12 years away, if HAL and Co. execute as per plan, which they seldom do. Per Google F35 is not much more expensive than Rafale.. I fail to understand this. No one even mentions this, forget debate about it.
MK2 is stepping stone for amca. We need MK2. Irony is, engine for amca is still not selected. We cant neglect mk2 for something which will goo into production next decade.
I dont think the AMCA is a practical or realistic as it will be really long while as India cannot even manufacture a jet engine presently.Till then SU-57 is a more realistic consideration
Can you please make a proper video on suift UCAV and it's possible application in Indian airforce also make sure that please update which engine is used in current form. Also if Ghatak UCAV can deliver the same payload which Tejas can with kawari engines so why are we worried that We don't have many fighter aircraft in the Indian airforce arsenal. If We can make Ghatak UCAV early then it can mitigate our instant aircraft requirements.
We could have buyed 72 rafale. Make in india is just raising cost of public hard earned money..HAL enjoyed with these make in india, how many aircraft they are making themselve.even for trainer aircraft they are struggling to make.
You guys brag a lot. Research is a wrong term. You are only analyzing the data available. Media is influenced by military equipment manufacturers and try to be their voice in both social media, television and print media.
@malarvannan3400 so happy to see someone with sense. This comment section is full of people bragging things that they have no idea of, just like these podcastors.
India decided to get outta the project due to poor deals and questionable stealth capabilities of the su57 now since we won't be able to produce even 4th gen of our own let alone 5th gen , India is left behind Chinese who already have 5th gen moving even closer to get 6th gen sooner. It's sad India has to end up with unproven su57. Ukraine with underwhelming force has denied Russia to use it's air power. Su57 was sitting duck. India needs novel ideas and weapons than still Obesseing over ineffective Russian weapons in real war. Take s400 which is being blown to pieces by a 500$ drone..
Buying F35 is a contradiction in terms. We shall pay, but where and how to use it - permission needed from the USA. Software locks you see. And spares ? Suck up and pay through your nose - and you get as per suppliers convenience, not your need. Just see what’s happened to the Tejas fighter engine deal with GE. Moneys paid and no supplies made because of “supply chain issues”. For a year and a half. And aircraft half finished lying around, because no engine. But engine supplies made to S Korea etc regularly !
Super Sukhoi ka approval Approval khel kitne din aur chalega? Super Su 30 with 2400 TR module GaN rader can resolve a lot of problems.. Ye delay kyun? samaj nehi ata..? Kisi lobby ke vested interest hai? Then what the top bosses are doing??
2100 ad Indian Airforce...... 3 air crafts main frame,4 types of clip on engines ( Marine, high altitude, low altitude, energy in efficient high power out put engines ) According to mission you connect engine systems on to main frame.. Load required weapons. Connect required avionics suite, If stealth is require connect stealth skin on to main frame.... But who is gonna make that a reality? Are you sure that you have an engineer who have powerful eyes, some one who can see the future? I am not intelligent enough to pass entrance exam, but i can make aircrafts.... Cuz in entrance exam engineers work alone to produce out put but in real life you work as a team to produce out put....
Spending money on SU 57 will make sense instead of Rafale. Especially in truncated numbers say 36 or 54 that too off-the-shelf
As such move will save money, time and technical edge.
Next buy EJ 200 & AL 31 FN Engine tech.
Make deals with israeli company to develop weapons & Avionics
This way will lead india towards self sustainment in fighter platform.
Just wait till Pakistan gets 5th gen fighter, we will be buying SU-57 off the shelf 😂
Yea 😂 panic buyer ka trophy humko hi milna chahiye
Compete with china ..Delusional andhbhakts
Indians relationship with Ru is not just transactional as Shiv mentions. USSR/RU used its Veto many times to help India and even positioned its naval assets to warn US during the cold war. This is not just a buy/sell relationship. Its very deep and strategic, built over many decades , based on Trust and mutual strategic interest.
No one will sell you sensitive Technology if they don't trust you. Gulf States have more money to blow on weapon's and if it was purely transactional they would have all the latest , sensitive technology, But they don't.
Complete BS.. Ukraine proved Russian army and weapons are Overhyped shitt. Indians dream of us lifestyle than Russian lifestyle anyday 😂.. Yes we are unabashedly hypocrites
Yes the Soviet/Russians did helped us sooo many times in this successfull partnership, India too put a lot of money into the Russian economy. We were one of the largest procurers of Russian military equipments and were completely dependent on their tech for a LONG TIME! Which ultimately helped them.
Just like Shiv said, we had a partnership in their 5th gen program and invested a big sum of money ($30-100Million) which ultimately helped them produce their jets...
@sabareesh129 russian tech is worthless.. Exposed by Ukrainians
The Su-57E is a great aircraft with a top notch engine. Plus it comes with possible TOT for the adaptive 5th gen engine which it will never get from the west nor will it get any source codes from it as well. With Su-57E we can integrate it more closely with the indian eco system.
Bad idea, we are looking to modernize our ecosystem, it may fit into the existing ecosystem well, but not the future which we want to build. So its a bad idea .
@@s.k.vigneshkarthikeyan2887 - Just because India has ambitions of building a 5th gen fighter... Its not going to happen overnight ... Aircraft design & development takes decades... And India doesn't possess the expertise or experience in designing a fighter from the ground up... And India expects to skip multiple generations of fighter aircraft and hit the jackpot...? The Americans won't even transfer basic jet engine technology to India... They won't sell the F-35 to India... Especially since India acquired the S-400 system which could easily track the F-35's radar signature... It will take India at least 20 - 30 years to develop even a basic 5th gen fighter... By which time most countries will be working on their 6th gen aircraft... The Chinese already have the J-20 ... Which Pakistan is desperate to get its hand on... India will be a couple of decades behind if that situation was to unfold.
the AL 51 is not an adaptive cycle engine as far as I know
Its a trash in the name of 5th gen. It has no stealth, bad sensors.
@@parthajitjana2222 is this all western propaganda or have you done any research of your own?
Shiv
Just to give facts to your audience, Krivak class Frigate, this ship was envisaged by Russian Navy before annexing of Crimea.
Originally Russia needed this Frigate for their own navies, however Ukraine was supposed to supply Gas Turbine Engines, as these frigates had Two DS- 71 and DT-59 boost engines manufactured by Zorya designed and Mashproekt(Ukraine)
By annexing crimea by Russia, Ukraine halted to supply Gas Turbine engines to these frigates. Russia Gas Turbine engines are not as reliable and powerful for these frigates.
Hence Russian offered heavy discounts for customer who went in for this purchase.
Russia did not have a problem selling this advanced frigate to India and Ukraine did not have problem delivering already manufactured Gas Turbine engines to India.
India got great discount of USD 300 million on these ships. India was pragmatic not to loose two advanced ships with 3 years delivery timeframe & technology transfer. Only fool would have turned down this proposal as it was win-win for all three sides.
India already has 6 Talwar class frigates wherein Indian navy is super happy with its firepower in this frigate type.
Very insightful, I was surprised Shiv chose to skip this.
Saw this on chanakya dialogues too
I think SU-57 is a good stop gap before full development and production of AMCA.
No its not, there is a reason we left the project. No point going back. Its like getting back to your ex. They will NEVER GIVE YOU TECHNOLOGY. thats how they fooled us for the last 20 years
No fighter jet deal is a stop gap! If you buy, you keep them for atleast 35-40 years and maintain them!
No now they will offer already so they will give the technology
I think it would be worth going with SU 75 instead of going for Tejas MK2. Let's complete the project of Tejas MK1A. merge MRFA and Tejas MK2 And procure SU 75 in large numbers with full TOT from Russia with integration of Indian systems with India specific enhancements. then, in future, if SU 75 is really capable platform, then replace all our aging foreign platforms with su 75. Finally, by that time we would be able to make AMCA completely on indigenous knowledge, experience, skill and capability coming with manufacturing of SU 75.
Option 2, let's re-join FGFA with integration of modern Indian systems and India specific enhancements. Scrap MRFA and Tejas MK2. Buy a good number of SU 57 along with marine versions and use the manufacturing experience to develop AMCA and TEDBF.
Here we have to remember that, even if the US gives us so-called full TOT for GE engines in Tejas program, that machine is only going to work as spy for their military and government which is only going to render you as permanently dependent country on them. They can take leverage of the situation of dependency of host country. Russia is reliable in that sense that they at least don't bother about internal affairs or our relations with other countries.
Option 3 adopt both the approaches mentioned in para 1 and 2
And there is no competition between indigenous AMCA and SU 57 Because when India can operate so many jets from different countries, why can’t SU 57 and AMCA coexist? Su 57 with maximum possible work share and Indian production line is going to support the AMCA and other indigenous programmes instead of competing with them. I think indigenous versus imported aircraft narrative is deliberately being raised to distract India from capacity building with respect to Air Force.
@@s.k.vigneshkarthikeyan2887 But there exist a capability gap vis-a-vis Chinese J-20 and J-35 fighters that we need to respond to in a meaningful timeframe. The best option capability vise will be F-35 but its not available for us. So the only option remains is Su-57 till the time the AMCA gets operationalised. The question is that IAF hasn't shown any interest in buying them so what do they know that isn't public info. The IAF seems confident in Rafale and upgraded Su-30 MKI to take on all the challenges in foreseeable future. Are we willing to take that risk. Only IAF and time can tell that.
If Su 57 can be licensed produced in India, it can be a very good deal indeed
Bangladesh is also making 5th gen fighter "kanglu 57".We should rather purchase it.
Till india doesn't have engine tech it and manufacture, it will be very difficult for india to compete in global arm power.
Well one thing to add in the context of the Tushi Frigate:
Russia was building it for its own Navy but that war for Crimea between Russia & Ukraine in 2014 resulted in Ukraine stopping engine which were required to build the frigates.
So in 2019 Modi cracked a deal where he said he will get the Ukranian engines and that will allow Russia to complete the incomplete hull which was there in Kaliningrad. But the condition was India should get major discounts for these frigates. Russians agreed.
So we got the engines from Ukraine, gave it to Russia and now we have received one of the two frigates which are being built.
Also we got a good discount on all of them.
Aapda ko awsar mein badal diya good decision as we should get such warships in more numbers.
One such ship closer to Bangladesh and they will pee their pants as these carry Brahmos missiles. Good for power projection.
Pakistan airforce will have J-31 within 2 years . India should go for F35 or SU57 at the earliest . AMCA will not happen till 2040 . Tejas development started in 1983 and we still dont have them properly.
WHO THINKS IT IS RIGHT… WHO THINKS IT IS WRONG….
INDIA TODAY WOULD NOT TAKE IT….
WE SPEAK ONLY WHAT GEORGE SOROS ASK US (India today) TO SAY…
Bull shi-t
I think it would be worth going with SU 75 instead of going for Tejas MK2. Let's complete the project of Tejas MK1A. merge MRFA and Tejas MK2 And procure SU 75 in large numbers with full TOT from Russia with integration of Indian systems with India specific enhancements. then, in future, if SU 75 is really capable platform, then replace all our aging foreign platforms with su 75. Finally, by that time we would be able to make AMCA completely on indigenous knowledge, experience, skill and capability coming with manufacturing of SU 75.
Option 2, let's re-join FGFA with integration of modern Indian systems and India specific enhancements. Scrap MRFA and Tejas MK2. Buy a good number of SU 57 along with marine versions and use the manufacturing experience to develop AMCA and TEDBF.
Here we have to remember that, even if the US gives us so-called full TOT for GE engines in Tejas program, that machine is only going to work as spy for their military and government which is only going to render you as permanently dependent country on them. They can take leverage of the situation of dependency of host country. Russia is reliable in that sense that they at least don't bother about internal affairs or our relations with other countries.
Option 3 adopt both the approaches mentioned in para 1 and 2
And there is no competition between indigenous AMCA and SU 57 Because when India can operate so many jets from different countries, why can’t SU 57 and AMCA coexist? Su 57 with maximum possible work share and Indian production line is going to support the AMCA and other indigenous programmes instead of competing with them. I think indigenous versus imported aircraft narrative is deliberately being raised to distract India from capacity building with respect to Air Force.
Better to have 100 to 120, SU57, it will cheaper and 100% technology transfer.
Thats the problem isn't it, can we trust them to give 100% ?
@@s.k.vigneshkarthikeyan2887 when ur airforce has been depended on russians over decades,...... yes we cn trust
Dear Friend
SU-57 is not true stealth fighter. It’s Radar Cross Section is 5Sq Meter with 100 kms away can be picked up by 4.5 generations fighters.
It does have RAM - Radar Absorbent Material in key areas and its engine is not IR signature can be detected by MIG 21 fighter.
SU 57 needs to have advanced Avionics and electronics jammer to conduct SEAD mission ( Suppression of Enemy Air Defence).
Hence India is not purchasing half baked stealth fighter. It’s Rafale has more sophisticated Avionics and Spectra to conduct SEAD mission.
Regards,
Dr Girish Kashyap
@@viaanenterprises8984 - The Su 57 has never been officially tested against any radar systems... But yet you're pulling out a radar cross section figure posted by western propaganda sources...? By your logic India should purchase the obese... completely unstealthy F-21 ...? Basically invest in a F-16 / F-18 platform thats over 50 years old...?
@@viaanenterprises8984 stealthy is a gambel bcz india cant afford such maintainence like US doing using f-22 and f-35 while comparing US military budget .and SU-57 still in the development and india can provide funds to improve more things by dealing with shukoi
Do you feel that our experts will not be able to find out whether it’s an “opportunity or distraction” when you are discussing about it in an open forum. Come on wake up!!!
Referring historical, It will take the least 50 years for AMCA.
Historically, persons like you have also been produced in India, and are making such imbecilic comments. Does not mean that it takes 50 years, historically to create a fool! There are many of your capabilities level who are only say 20 years old
Kudos to both of guys . I wait religiously for this podcast every week . Thank you ❤ and let's hit that 100 soon
India is not able to buy any jet because of people like him doing propaganda. In upa time these people used to question govt. now??
Agree with Shiv. I think we should abandon the Tejas Mk2 program and divert all resources to AMCA and quickly realise the MRFA (wisdom dictates it should be Rafale). Have MK1a in large numbers with a steady assembly line churning out 24 fighters a year if not more. India cannot have mk2 and AMCA running simultaneously. We just don't have the resources.
Rafale is the best option , safran has also promosed to help develop our own engine which is the most important. France also asked india to join 6th gen fighter program so Rafale js the best option . 2 nd best option would be F-15ex from US but many many issues regarding the relationship.
France appears to be more reliable than the USA.
We should buy SU57, because we are incapable of making our own engines and AMCA will come only by 2060 or 2070 that too if we are able to make a deal with an engine manufacturer.
Go with a large combined Air Force-Navy order including local production for Rafales in MMRCA. But it might be a good idea to go for a few squadrons of Su-57's off the shelf separately just so India has some experience operating a 5th Gen fighter (might also help with AMCA development) and make whatever necessary changes & customizations once you have them. Will also boost Squadron numbers and give India some level of stealth capability much earlier than if we keep waiting on the AMCA (meanwhile even LCA's aren't being produced quickly enough in big numbers yet).
Precisely why we must not go in for the Su57 !!!
Have 15 Su 57 and 35 F-35. This should suffice with Rafale too on radar.
Why would we buy readymade fighters when all we really need is components like Engines, radars etc.?
Instead for HAL producing 12 Sukhoi fighter jets for 24000 crores which is a 5th generation fighter
Instead India can buy 12 to 15 Su 57 fighters from Russia
Great suggestions. The deal is about 2 billion dollars. It's 16000 crore rupees in lndian currency.
India must do an HF-24 when one of the greatest aircraft designers of his time Dr. Kurt Tank aided us. A top indigenous India aircraft of its time. Now we need to get people of the calibre of the late, Roddam Narasimha and come of with a top of line aircraft. USSR-RUSSIAN weapons are more often top-rate and Russia is our loyal brother. My friend flew the Mikoyan Gurevich-21. An objective and a brilliant person he said it was the top-most aircraft of its kind during its period! No one can spoil the Indo-Russia terms no matter how much money and propaganda they do. Indians have great gratitude for USSR-RUSSIA and we are also a loyal country. We are not like Recep Tayyip Erdoğan who switches sides in Nano-seconds. While we have brilliant people sadly as of now people with fake degrees including doctoral or with soft-degrees are being placed as experts in top-positions. Stupidity of the highest order. P.S. India must start manufacturing advanced jet engines. The Paper-Tiger China can not still make them but is getting great help from their Israeli allies. Most military equipment in China is older U.S. versions which they have obtained from Israel. Mr. Pompeo had warned Israel to stop this. Also most fake data on China is planted by their friends to make China look a great power. The only country which has the military power to take on the USA is Russia.
It would be suicide for India to go with the SU-57 - the Rafale is a far more capable platform. It is a matter of great shame that India lags Turkey and South Korea on Stealth tech but the SU-57 is anything but stealthy.
Our best Stealth option is the join Japan and the UK on their 6th gen fighter platform.
You cant be good in everything , unless you are US with a 27 Trillion GDP or China with 17 some Trillion GDP . India has a very successful space program that took a generations to build. Turkey and S.Korea don't have those capabilities.
@@Zul1788 lol sure!
Stealth alone is overrated. Su57 is more maneuverable and multi-role.
Su 57 claims to have capabilities to detect 5th Gen fighters which are all about stealth. Once you detect it, it doesn't remain a 5th gen stealth aircraft anymore and becomes dinner for Su 57. Su 57 is more lethal in terms of firepower than F35. Also there are reports that US has built backdoors in F35 and is well know to play games. It would be suicide for India to buy anything American in large numbers, unless they offer 100% TOT and localised manufacturing (which Americans will never agree)
If simply throwing money and buying off the shelf was an option, we would be having 100s of aircrafts under MMRCA already by now.
@@bugbuggy3866 Russia claims a lot of things, the delivery side sometimes leaves something to be desired, 2 years of war and it still does not have control of the airspace in Ukraine, when it has an overwhelming superiority in the number of fighters, and before the arrival of the F16s it also had superiority technologically, why Russia can't dominate the skies, it shouldn't even need a Su-57 to do so, and yet the Russian air force has great difficulties operating in Ukraine. Why? The Su-57 is beautiful and in mechanical terms it seems excellent, but nowadays there are no dogfights, everything is done long distance, what counts are the radar, electronics and missiles, and Russia is not exactly known for the quality of its electronics components, sure the missiles are good, but if your opponent sees you minutes before you see him and manages to fire a missile long before you do? Well, the Su-57 is beautiful.
Dev & Shiv
Let me break the news to News Podcast that currently MRFA of 114 is non starter due to budgetary constraints.
Government is talking to Indian Airforce of buying additional 36 rafale fighter + 26 naval Rafale M with option of additional 22 Rafale M is only import on Govt table.
Tejas Mark 1A planned procurement of 200 fighters + Tejas mark 2 which is also going to be manufactured around 250-300 numbers( 200 Mark 2 for IAF, around 100+ for export) and AMCA 5.5 Generation to be in quantity range of 170 numbers will make up for IAF squadron strength with 10 squadrons of Armed UAV like Ghatak will make up for their numbers
Where exactly are the engines going to come from for so these Tejas versions. Without engines there are just going to stay on the ground. Indian GTRE has produced ghanta in reality in last 75y
There has been no discussion on how reliable the Russian engine technology is. In the past the downtime of Russian engines has not been comparable to Western engines.
Yours is one of the best shows i this area. Can you please make this show more frequent? There are too many questions to be answered by shiv.
Googly or not, it may be the only Fifth Gen prospect for the immediate future.
Great Podcast! One suggestion for the host, don't know about your personal defence knowledge, but Fighter Jets & other expensive artilleries are the most talked about Defence acquisition and if you are hosting a defence show, you should not mistake names repeatedly. You guys are doing great! Shiv is superb! Buckle up buddy!
Real conversation starts after 7:30 minutes
hero
The point you made . The proposition of going for a few squadrons of Su 57 rather than a large number of "4.5" generation aircraft actually makes sense . Go for 2 or 3 squadrons of Su 57 . Invest all your time energy towards AMCA and the the Tejas MkII (to make up the numbers). Just like the Zorawar it will be the Chinese who will show us the way . There is this talk of them supplying their "5th generation " fighters to Pakistan. We will be forced to do so.
And and how many years will it take Russia to produce these squadrons? They will first need 5-7 years to finish the order for the Russian air force, if they do not increase the production rate.
36 numbers of su 57 is all that india needs before going allout on
Self reliance
Prime minister Modi instead of building ghatia infrastructure spending most of money of the Government. Instead he should buy foreign artillery, tanks, fighter jets. Unless lndia has a strong military nobody will give importance.
If only our troubles with the Kaveri engine was sorted long ago, most of the Air force's issues would not exist today!!!
Vth Gen - Stealth, Data Fusion. VIth Gen - incremental technologies in the realm of Automation & Autonomy of Pilot's Role. 👌
Sir.india ko kuch bhi karke fifth genration su-57 fighter jet lena chahiye.America hame bahot jyada mehenge fighter jet dega aur bahot time lagayega.
Its not about government
its made to run a country & handle the people money as taxes wisely
Wether its America USA 🇺🇸- F-35
or wether its Russia 🇷🇺- SU-57
Or our AMCA which is tooo late
Yes we should go for Russia SU-57
We can do both with our budget both su57 and amca .
Russian su 57 will be the logical choice to go with instead of spending money on European or French systems on which we can't even add our indigenously made weapons or can upgrade with indigenously developed systems in future, russian platforms never had this restrain and we developed most of our weapons systems on thr platforms only
The anchor should be careful about not speaking too fast and gobbling words from time to time. Please note how clearly Shiv Aroor speaks.
India shall never go for any US jets with TOT/balooned offers
I wonder the two hosts as confused as they are like the IAF and GOI, started discussing SU57 and ended up discussing Atma Nirbhar bharat. There was hardly any content regarding 5 th Gen figjter or even the SU57. Theytalk as if f35 is on offer from US. Serious lack of content and piecemeal and skin deep knowledge about fighter aircraft for the hosts shows. God help India today
I believe in my limited knowledge of Defence process
1. F35 very very very unlikely as we already have S400 Triumph
2. AMCA IMPACT while it's still some time to come up
3. Su 57 and or 75 with Stealth technology - their own rate of procurement is low and it's still evolving 😮
Plus US sanction even though they are or seen non committed to Ge engine, trying tonpush their own platform, ( 🥕)
And asdie on sideline - all of this unnecessarily delayed MRFA delivery of likely Rafael
Rahul and shiv are my favourite journalist & anchor
If russia ready for 80% TOT then proceed for make in india.
AMCA will never roll out at least until 2035!! By then, China would have 6th Gen. India's airforce needs more Rafales. Buy them outright until we develop our own 5th Gen. Develop 6th Gen with Italy or other nations in the meantime. India urgently needs 100 Rafales
Discussion in IAF ranks and media revolves more on achieving 42 squadrons rather than capabilities. Numerically large number of 3rd and 4th gen crap is useless for offense when the LAC is filled with SAMs and radars. When Pak also officially inducts the J35, IAF will wake up and start panicking. When China has J20 and J35 across the border today, IAF is not concerned. The MRCA is waste of the whole country's time, and discourse. MRCA requirements are obsolete on arrival and hardly meets the country realistic needs in a future war with China. The Israeli air force is a prime example of small number of squadrons but extremely lethal and effective. India should play the Su57 card with the US to get good offer on F35s.
China has both numerical and technological superiority over the Indian air force currently. It seems like IAF does not understand stealth and what to do with it. This explains why they are still stuck with the MRCA.
Day Job for Shiv VS Defence conversations, obviously shiv gona choose Defence 😆😆😆
When u drop reporter activist like Rajdeep and dutt from IT
Where from India will get the aircraft engines intime to produce the complete aircraft. They have to go for import the complete aircraft.
Stick to one platform. Buy more Rafaels.
Stealth is overrated, F35 took a step back on stealth from F22.
western engine life is 5x of russian jets.
and USAF took another step back when procured the F-15EX Eagle II.
India will not buy any major offensive Russian weapons in the foreseeable future due to geopolitics…Atmanirbhar is the only long term solution, but the key question on stealth fighters for Bharat is, given AMCA may only be available starting 2035, Pakistan getting Chinese J31s by 2030, how do we deal with it in the interim!
The only viable options are getting say 50 Su-57s or F-35s, till AMCA comes, and my sense is no foreign stealth jets, while we will try to mitigate the risks with better A2AD capability and large number of hypersonic HGV missiles to threaten our enemies!
There are many types of clowns in this world, some are clowns others are good clowns, and then there are super / absolute clowns like shiv tharoor and the IAF !..... I mean seriously, I am not even an mechanical engineer here but these clowns fail to even mention that the joint development of FGFA was shelved ? I mean the requirement of IAF was a 2 seater version of PAKFA.....for a stealth fighter the most stupid request was for a second pilot! 😂 I mean this is not just adding an additional person, it's about adding additional life support systems, controls, ejection seats etc... and when the whole purpose of a STEALTH FIGHTER is to lower the signature? In a world where the world is going towards zero pilots aka drones IAF and tharoor wants to run a fighter like a PSU, I don't know why the defense experts take these clowns seriously 😅
Why don't they got make separate jet engine agency. And provide them with full funds and set timeline
Russian fighters are far better then western counter part and we are so use to Russian fighters which never let us down
Hilarious! Russian fighters are far better than western ones at what?
Without French help amca won ' t be completed ever .period
" Aane wale samay main Emerging Critical Technology Drone, Fighter Jets ko KABAR bana dega" Allen musk
Aap ka vichar hai shree man ji ?
Sir how about euro fighter typhoon used by NATO
under modi indian airforce getting weaker day by day
india need fighter jets as soon as possible
Why doesn’t anyone talk about acquiring stealth fighters as part of MRFA? At least 50% of the 114..
China already has 2 type of stealth fighters in large numbers, Pakistan will get some soon. AMCA is at least 12 years away, if HAL and Co. execute as per plan, which they seldom do. Per Google F35 is not much more expensive than Rafale.. I fail to understand this. No one even mentions this, forget debate about it.
MK2 is stepping stone for amca. We need MK2. Irony is, engine for amca is still not selected. We cant neglect mk2 for something which will goo into production next decade.
I dont think the AMCA is a practical or realistic as it will be really long while as India cannot even manufacture a jet engine presently.Till then SU-57 is a more realistic consideration
"India buys everythings" Buy some su 57 as a deterent and develop your own which are more advanced...
Can you please make a proper video on suift UCAV and it's possible application in Indian airforce also make sure that please update which engine is used in current form. Also if Ghatak UCAV can deliver the same payload which Tejas can with kawari engines so why are we worried that We don't have many fighter aircraft in the Indian airforce arsenal. If We can make Ghatak UCAV early then it can mitigate our instant aircraft requirements.
Independent India on
We could have buyed 72 rafale. Make in india is just raising cost of public hard earned money..HAL enjoyed with these make in india, how many aircraft they are making themselve.even for trainer aircraft they are struggling to make.
You guys brag a lot. Research is a wrong term. You are only analyzing the data available. Media is influenced by military equipment manufacturers and try to be their voice in both social media, television and print media.
@malarvannan3400 so happy to see someone with sense. This comment section is full of people bragging things that they have no idea of, just like these podcastors.
28:45 The British Tempest is 5th gen? Where's the fact checking dude...
nobody is selling you f35. it's pathetic that India is stuck in design phase for 5th gen. the only option is su57.
India decided to get outta the project due to poor deals and questionable stealth capabilities of the su57 now since we won't be able to produce even 4th gen of our own let alone 5th gen , India is left behind Chinese who already have 5th gen moving even closer to get 6th gen sooner. It's sad India has to end up with unproven su57. Ukraine with underwhelming force has denied Russia to use it's air power. Su57 was sitting duck. India needs novel ideas and weapons than still Obesseing over ineffective Russian weapons in real war. Take s400 which is being blown to pieces by a 500$ drone..
It is a terrible Idea that India even considers S-57.
It's better than Samosa.. Which is still in works.
no it is not
@@samsung123451 that samosa is good enough to enter ur rear.
Did you receive the shekel from Israel or from the USA?
ISO TEJAS MARK II we should induct Saab Gripen in MRFA and concentrate on AMCA
Things are changing now?? Shiv propaganda never stops
Why should he stop his propaganda ?
F35 is good plane but vey high operation and maintenance cost can india bear that cost that is the question ❓⁉️
Buying F35 is a contradiction in terms. We shall pay, but where and how to use it - permission needed from the USA. Software locks you see. And spares ? Suck up and pay through your nose - and you get as per suppliers convenience, not your need. Just see what’s happened to the Tejas fighter engine deal with GE. Moneys paid and no supplies made because of “supply chain issues”. For a year and a half. And aircraft half finished lying around, because no engine. But engine supplies made to S Korea etc regularly !
F 35 b is only answer shiv right
Either u have to take the balls of U.S or Russia...choice
Like pakisthan holding the balls of China 🤭
Who is responsible for indian withdrawal from joint 5th Gen fighters? Modi
Congress..
Super Sukhoi ka approval Approval khel kitne din aur chalega? Super Su 30 with 2400 TR module GaN rader can resolve a lot of problems..
Ye delay kyun? samaj nehi ata..?
Kisi lobby ke vested interest hai?
Then what the top bosses are doing??
Buy means creat such situation that army, airforce and chandigrah lobby to do corruption as both branches of milatry more interested in buying
even the chinese say the su57 is inferior in terms of manufacturing quality...LOL
Да они могут, ведь покупают на свои истребители, двигатели ал-31ф у России, а то что летало у них на выставке, называется- т-50-4!😂
2100 ad Indian Airforce......
3 air crafts main frame,4 types of clip on engines ( Marine, high altitude, low altitude, energy in efficient high power out put engines )
According to mission you connect engine systems on to main frame.. Load required weapons. Connect required avionics suite,
If stealth is require connect stealth skin on to main frame....
But who is gonna make that a reality? Are you sure that you have an engineer who have powerful eyes, some one who can see the future?
I am not intelligent enough to pass entrance exam, but i can make aircrafts....
Cuz in entrance exam engineers work alone to produce out put
but in real life you work as a team to produce out put....
Silly journalist trying to become defense expert with zero knowledge.
Zero ?
Phns gya desh 😢
India must go on full speed and produce the amca jet
1 squadron of SU57 should be bought. AMCA will remain a dream... Considering Indian Babu system. If BJP loses... Everything will be halted
Ahhahhaah haaan be India hee sab innovation kar raha hai.. chewtiyewe