For me, the 1st appearence is, as it says, the 1st appearence. If the character is pictured and named, then that is the first appearence. It doesn't necessarily mean that that is the most expensive or the most collected.
Two-In -One's weren't 2 stories an issue it was like a Marvel Team-Up but instead of Spidey is was Thing teaming up with other heroes or villains hence the Two-In-One moniker. Great videos!
Yeah I noticed that as well, two in one and team up were my favorites when I collected in the 70s because my 2 favorite marvel characters are the Thing and Spiderman so now that I'm old and my original collection is long gone I have just started trying to replace my favorite books from the silver and bronze age. And yes I am old. 😊😮😢
You forgot Avengers #2, which is the first full appearance of the Avengers. They only have a cameo in Avengers #1, since the team is formed in the very last panel.
Funny, I just picked up 64 and 65 in a lot of 10 2in1 about two weeks ago for a total for $15 for the lot and both issues are VF condition. I had no idea about this until running across your video, I appreciate it. 😊
"cameo" vs "full" is an attempt at justifying the cooler book. No one likes the covers of ASM 299 and Hulk 180 and X-Men Annual 14, so we invented "cameos" so the "full appearance" is the same book as the one "the market" decides it likes
It's always been about the cover more then first appearance. Cover's are what sell comic books, however, having a great story-line is what keeps collectors coming back.
I've never put down my thoughts about this debate, and glad to have an opportunity. I think the words we use for these books is a little off. In the first place, my understanding is that the placement of value on first appearances began out of speculation when comics first started to be seen as investment opportunities, and there was an attempt to find an analogue for "rookie card" in the comics world. But the concept doesn't translate well because the two are so different. One was meant to be a collectible representation of real people. The other was meant to be disposable reading material about fictional people. That said, I think the desire to own the first visual representation of a culturally important creation makes sense. But I don't like "cameo" or "first *full* appearance" as categories. I think really we should simply be talking about "first appearance," "first cover appearance," and "first featured story." As for a shadow, or a sliver of the character being show in a panel a la ASM 298, I think that should get another term. Maybe "cameo" is right for that, but still seems to be really imprecise, ie. it makes a lot more sense to me to say Spider-Man makes a "cameo appearance" in Howard the Duck #1, not that Venom makes a cameo in ASM 298. The latter is more of a teaser appearance for a story that's developing and is about to become central. Maybe "partial appearance" is what we are going for. For my money, in a medium that is, let's face it, centrally about visuals, it should be a requirement that you can see the full costume for it to be a first appearance of a comic book character. So I've always felt that calling ASM 299 or Hulk 180 "cameo appearances" is just a misguided attempt to equate "most sought after" with "first appearance" rather than trying to accurately describe the thing. It's worth acknowledging that in comics, we don't have the equivalent of a rookie card, and people who say the market "should" value Hulk 180 over Hulk 181 are just playing into that same rookie card trap. That's not what comic lovers love. We like covers a lot and we like stories, and when those things feature a character for the first time, we place a lot of value on them. So maybe the upshot to all of this is simply "it's the wrong debate." That's my $.02!
When you say 1st Appearance, to me, that means the first time you use the word to describe a character. Doesnt matter if the word cameo is in front of it.
I think it just depends on personal taste always, it’s rare we get a comic like new mutants 98 with first appearance and a cover appearance. For me it just depends what I want to display.
To be fair, the story going on in those books "The Serpent Crown Affair" is a really good story. You should be picking them up just for that. Definitely better story than some of the dross that marvel have been releasing lately. 🙂🙂
When it comes to anything speculative, you should've already had either one of these in one of your longboxes. If you're buying now it's a race to the bottom, and all you're doing is driving up the price of an otherwise non-key dollar bin book.
The ASM 300 cover has been homages so much that it feels tired to look at now. Trust me, I picked up a copy when it first hit my lcs in the late 80s and still remember now how cool the artwork looked when I first set eyes on it
I've got the book, but I'm still not a fan of the "Toddfather". His Hulks were horrrible. Don't get the Batman cover either. I never got around to getting that one, and more than likely won't.
Stingray is probably in my top 10 D list heroes. In other news, if you get the name of the character I count it as their first appearance but it’s always what the market goes for
Swag how could you leave out the always controversial Archangel/Death/Angel a.k.a. Warren Worthington? I mean 1st cameo is X Factor 22. 1st appearance X Factor 23 ( he is on several panels and names!) and finally X Factor 24 1st cover and full story! Taskmaster did the same thing as Wolverine. Last panel named cameo and the next book he was on the cover and in the full story. My criteria may be a little bit different than other people's. If it's a preview months before the character is released, I will chase that. If it's in a preview published by the company that makes the character. Otherwise, the first appearance will be the first book they appear in. But of course there's an exception to that as well. The exception being if it is a cameo and then the character is on the next issue cover and interior then I prefer to get that. So that's a long-winded way to say. I don't really care about the value of a book. As much as I care about my own personal preference. Same thing goes for a character like Adam warlock. I go for the fantastic four issue rather than the Thor issue. Just to me because the fantastic four was his first appearance.
To be honest this book wasn't something I've been looking to pick up during any of the years I've been collecting. In the comics he's always getting beat down. I'm surprised the actor of his caliber wants that specific character to play that has never had much of a role in marvel comics.
Definitely not feeling the 'I'm smarter than everyone' vibe of this video. You made an old video where you suggested this book as a spec book and now you're making a video making fun of everyone buying the book? That's the content grind I guess.
For me, the 1st appearence is, as it says, the 1st appearence. If the character is pictured and named, then that is the first appearence. It doesn't necessarily mean that that is the most expensive or the most collected.
This also my view on first appearance. If a character is shown in full and named that is their first appearance.
I don't mind that people want the second appearance of Wolverine more than his first.
Two-In -One's weren't 2 stories an issue it was like a Marvel Team-Up but instead of Spidey is was Thing teaming up with other heroes or villains hence the Two-In-One moniker. Great videos!
I was laughing at that part. I have the full run and him saying that makes me feel old as I thought everyone knew that
Yeah I noticed that as well, two in one and team up were my favorites when I collected in the 70s because my 2 favorite marvel characters are the Thing and Spiderman so now that I'm old and my original collection is long gone I have just started trying to replace my favorite books from the silver and bronze age. And yes I am old. 😊😮😢
Makes you wonder, if Darkseid was on the cover of Forever People 1, would Jimmy Olsen 134 be a twenty-five dollar book?
You forgot Avengers #2, which is the first full appearance of the Avengers. They only have a cameo in Avengers #1, since the team is formed in the very last panel.
Funny, I just picked up 64 and 65 in a lot of 10 2in1 about two weeks ago for a total for $15 for the lot and both issues are VF condition. I had no idea about this until running across your video, I appreciate it. 😊
"cameo" vs "full" is an attempt at justifying the cooler book. No one likes the covers of ASM 299 and Hulk 180 and X-Men Annual 14, so we invented "cameos" so the "full appearance" is the same book as the one "the market" decides it likes
I think Hulk 180 is more than a cameo. It's a full panel with a line. That said, 181 is the better cover and the one everyone wants.
It's always been about the cover more then first appearance. Cover's are what sell comic books, however, having a great story-line is what keeps collectors coming back.
I've never put down my thoughts about this debate, and glad to have an opportunity. I think the words we use for these books is a little off. In the first place, my understanding is that the placement of value on first appearances began out of speculation when comics first started to be seen as investment opportunities, and there was an attempt to find an analogue for "rookie card" in the comics world. But the concept doesn't translate well because the two are so different. One was meant to be a collectible representation of real people. The other was meant to be disposable reading material about fictional people.
That said, I think the desire to own the first visual representation of a culturally important creation makes sense. But I don't like "cameo" or "first *full* appearance" as categories. I think really we should simply be talking about "first appearance," "first cover appearance," and "first featured story." As for a shadow, or a sliver of the character being show in a panel a la ASM 298, I think that should get another term. Maybe "cameo" is right for that, but still seems to be really imprecise, ie. it makes a lot more sense to me to say Spider-Man makes a "cameo appearance" in Howard the Duck #1, not that Venom makes a cameo in ASM 298. The latter is more of a teaser appearance for a story that's developing and is about to become central. Maybe "partial appearance" is what we are going for.
For my money, in a medium that is, let's face it, centrally about visuals, it should be a requirement that you can see the full costume for it to be a first appearance of a comic book character. So I've always felt that calling ASM 299 or Hulk 180 "cameo appearances" is just a misguided attempt to equate "most sought after" with "first appearance" rather than trying to accurately describe the thing. It's worth acknowledging that in comics, we don't have the equivalent of a rookie card, and people who say the market "should" value Hulk 180 over Hulk 181 are just playing into that same rookie card trap. That's not what comic lovers love. We like covers a lot and we like stories, and when those things feature a character for the first time, we place a lot of value on them. So maybe the upshot to all of this is simply "it's the wrong debate."
That's my $.02!
I loved this breakdown from start to finish amd have had the exact same sentiment about all of that for the longest time, im glad I aint alone 🥂
When you say 1st Appearance, to me, that means the first time you use the word to describe a character. Doesnt matter if the word cameo is in front of it.
I think it just depends on personal taste always, it’s rare we get a comic like new mutants 98 with first appearance and a cover appearance. For me it just depends what I want to display.
To be fair, the story going on in those books "The Serpent Crown Affair" is a really good story. You should be picking them up just for that. Definitely better story than some of the dross that marvel have been releasing lately. 🙂🙂
Agreed Gruenwald is one of my favorites
When it comes to anything speculative, you should've already had either one of these in one of your longboxes. If you're buying now it's a race to the bottom, and all you're doing is driving up the price of an otherwise non-key dollar bin book.
Stingray is in the new Namor book. But no, can't call myself a fan...
64 Is the first appearance. He's named and he speaks. So Hulk 2 is first Red Hulk and Hulk 180 is first Wolverine
Full appearance plus cover is a absolutely cooler. But if you really have the sickness you get both anyway 💀
REAL TALK, when are we getting a R Kelly cameo?
there is no debate when you have both hulk 180 and 181 in high grade
The ASM 300 cover has been homages so much that it feels tired to look at now. Trust me, I picked up a copy when it first hit my lcs in the late 80s and still remember now how cool the artwork looked when I first set eyes on it
I've got the book, but I'm still not a fan of the "Toddfather". His Hulks were horrrible. Don't get the Batman cover either. I never got around to getting that one, and more than likely won't.
Pence and newstand should be more valuable, let the backlash begin!!!
Stingray is probably in my top 10 D list heroes. In other news, if you get the name of the character I count it as their first appearance but it’s always what the market goes for
Cool. Not sure what Stingray has to do with anything though😂
@@patrickmel8728 he asked if there were any Stingray fans out there
its just means I want both books!! and I still cant afford a Hulk 181/180 or a ASM 300/299 lol!
9:33 don’t forget one of the house or power of x books says hulk 180 is the 1st appearance of wolverine, and that’s coming from marvel themselves
Hulk #181 is 100% Wolverines second appearance
I Love one Gustavo Fringe... but sell... Sell... SELL.... cameo or first full.... SELLLLLLLLL
i picked up 2 copies of 64 for under $2 a couple days ago at the lcs. About to flip em and get rich
Detective Comics 26 is a cameo of Batman :)
Hot take: I don’t think the ASM 300 cover is that great. I always thought the 300’s make it look weird. The ASM 301 cover is better
Also, 65 is for sure the book to own
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Swag how could you leave out the always controversial Archangel/Death/Angel a.k.a. Warren Worthington? I mean 1st cameo is X Factor 22. 1st appearance X Factor 23 ( he is on several panels and names!) and finally X Factor 24 1st cover and full story! Taskmaster did the same thing as Wolverine. Last panel named cameo and the next book he was on the cover and in the full story. My criteria may be a little bit different than other people's. If it's a preview months before the character is released, I will chase that. If it's in a preview published by the company that makes the character. Otherwise, the first appearance will be the first book they appear in. But of course there's an exception to that as well. The exception being if it is a cameo and then the character is on the next issue cover and interior then I prefer to get that. So that's a long-winded way to say. I don't really care about the value of a book. As much as I care about my own personal preference. Same thing goes for a character like Adam warlock. I go for the fantastic four issue rather than the Thor issue. Just to me because the fantastic four was his first appearance.
What happened to GW Bridge?
Let’s talk about ASM 50 & 51.
Hard to make an argument against it when he's actually on the cover.
Mickey, you and I should talk……
there is no debate. A cameo appearance, is an appearance. Numerically, the number 180 preceeds 181. Reality must prevail.
This is obviously the new Hulk 181 FOMO away ;-)
To be honest this book wasn't something I've been looking to pick up during any of the years I've been collecting. In the comics he's always getting beat down. I'm surprised the actor of his caliber wants that specific character to play that has never had much of a role in marvel comics.
Foom 2 is going to the moon, up $150 in the last two sales!
yooooo good i hope al the clowns grab this and waste there money on these C rate villians !! jus leave my ASM alone😮😮😮😮😮
To me hulk 180 and ASM 298/299 are like advertising a new character rather than getting to know the character. The cover art plays a role as well.
Don't FOMO and fumble like ROMO!
Hey, I won quite a few Fantasy football leagues with Romo as my QB.
Definitely not feeling the 'I'm smarter than everyone' vibe of this video. You made an old video where you suggested this book as a spec book and now you're making a video making fun of everyone buying the book? That's the content grind I guess.
If that’s your takeaway you’re really overthinking it…or don’t get my humor. I’m actually making fun of myself.