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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ย. 2024
- Ahead of Eating Disorder Awareness Week, we're chatting about EDs, calorie counting, how our culture exacerbates the problem, and tons more!
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References & Further Reading
ED Test
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Eating Disorders
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Calorie Counting
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@notcorry / @lukecutforth
Do you have (or have you ever had) an eating disorder?
No I haven't. But I have never been skinny and I have no clue if its just my body type or just I eat too much. Big fan of you and noah and I am happy to learn more watching this since as someone who gets bored easily, this to me is fun and teaches me more than my science class does lol.
And also my mental health has been all over the place recently and one of my friends said I did sound like I had depression. Yay we love terrible minds making lives so much worse than it has to be by always being scared of what others may think of you.
no
I have an unhealthy relationship with food that hasn't been diagnosed as disordered. My weight is never my concern, it's the time. I have to take the time to figure out what I want, make it, eat it and later have to sit on the toilet for who knows how long. I don't know why but I genuinely see it as a waste of time most days.
yes! ARFID, comorbid with my autism aaaaa (i would love an ep on it)
I think a watchword for the 2020s should be "orthorexia" which can be glibly defined as "healthy eating disorder" That is, a psychologically or physiologically destructive emphasis on eating "right" "correct" "healthy" or "clean" foods (and commensurate avoidance / fear / guilt of eating "wrong" foods)
It seems to be a trend in disordered eating. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets diagnostic criteria in the future, or if it gets somewhat of a "shoutout" in the "other" category of diagnostic criteria.
Not just 2020, i knew people long before then who had orthorexia.
I agree!
We have to be careful not to throw the term around if they aren't following a destrustive eating pattern.
I've seen people throw around the orthorexia food to defend against critism of MAD (modern American diet) and try to normalize it.
Most people are following a diet that is objectively extreme (from both a nutritional and medical perspective) and making us sick and yet we don't see it as extreme because most people are eating this way.
@@rcarterbrown1 Yeah the super-processed food industry LOVES the fact that they can pathologise anyone who eats food instead of their Frankenfood, edible food-like substances that are proven to disrupt our satiety, reward system, mood and energy throughout the day and make us crave them chemically like crack or heroin. They use it to pathologise the people drawing attention to the massive amounts of evidence all pointing towards that industry's products as the environmental cause (i.e. the trigger on the metaphorical gun which is loaded by individual biological predisposing factors) of binge eating and compulsive overeating in cultures that adopt similar diets.
The paper "The Western diet: a blind spot of eating disorder research?" sadly came out in late 2019 and has not been used to prevent or treat eating disorders like it should have been, it should be revolutionising it all, but too many re-feeding specialists and ED therapists have been saying "there is no such thing as bad food" for so long that they either can't admit they were wrong and were biased against it because they don't want to retract their previous pro-corporate ideology of "there is no bad food", or never heard of the paper because the pandemic hit soon afterwards or because they don't bother reading all new papers.
This includes anorexia nervosa, not just binge eating and buimia, because as the paper explains, at least some cases of anorexia are a frightened or irritated response to the "emotional eating" impulse and/or insatiability induced by eating Frankenfood (including "low calorie diet food") everyday. It is a desperate attempt to avoid those uncomfortable fluctuations in blood glucose that eating always causes them and to therefore avoid overeating, by resolving to eat as little as possible of ALL food. Because they don't know that if they didn't eat any moderately-to-highly processed fake food, their brains would be able to tell them how much is enough, instead they make the decision regimented. Their natural sense of when they are full was indeed always screwed up (by processed food) and they don't know that it's possible to fix that.
@@rcarterbrown1 There is a paper that got buried by the pandemic, which collates a lot of the evidence and lays out in detail how processed food is the crucial environmental trigger of bulimia and binge eating disorder, and many cases of anorexia nervosa (because AN fasting just like any other fasting, reverses numerous physiological negative effects of the highly processed diet, making it comparatively easier to avoid bingeing than when they try eating more, and producing a soothing "hunger high" which anorexics are addicted to and mentally healthy fasters are not). It's called "The Western diet: a blind spot of eating disorder research?" The entire paper can be read for free.
"society needs to go to therapy"
I agree
I’ve had eating disorders. But I’m finally recovering. I’m growing my hair that I lost during that time back too!! Thank you for bringing ED into an educational light, it taught me a lot!
great ep as always!!
i struggled with anorexia for a few years in middle school, and now struggle with binge eating disorder. really went full circle, but i would much rather deal with what i do now than restrictive eating
been there, i’ve found balance on the other side and i hope you will too
thank you sm for covering this! i'm pretty underweight boy and i always found it so hard to find any useful information on improving so any kind of attention drawn towards these issues is really apreciated! i don't do this on purpose at all and i don't feel very comfortable being so thin, but my untreated ADHD and GAD makes it really hard to remember to eat and eat much when i'm out with friends - and every time i try to look up what might help it's all about _losing_ weight and/or gaining muscle mass and it's so hard to sift through
Thank you for talking about binge eating disorder. It is a legitimate eating disorder so I appreciate you talking about it.
You should do a more in depth pod about the reasons why and have the TH-camr herbs and altars on they have some really good content on ED and have a inside view on it
I think Luke's vocal fumbling at the end there was contagious. LOL I've been "overweight" my entire life, even when I was very healthy. Of course, I'm afab, and my family genetics up my mother's/grandmother's lines are just big people. We are huge for women. And well into the 90s all of the information we could get said the "optimal" weight for women, even 5'10 to 6 foot, even with large bone structure, was 140 lbs. My cousin had a very similar body to mine, and she was 140 lbs once in her adult life. She was married, and looked like she was starving to death, because she made sure her child and husband had food before she did. So she was starving. At my healthiest, I was 180, my 36 inch waistband jeans were a tad loose and I was built. I had access to a free weight room. I was 10 lbs heavier than when I went to college, but much more fit. My mother freaked out. I've never gotten back down to 180.
I got done watching all of the episodes today and was disappointed there wasn't an ED one! Love the show, love that this came out today
From age 16 i suffered from megarexia. I had just stopped swimming on an elite level, and the loss of identity made me grasp for something else to try be something. I isolated myself throughout highschool and my first year of uni, eating right, training 2-4 hours a day. I slowly started training for function instead of aesthetics, which helped me get better. I'm not completely there but I'm way healthier now.
Wish you talked about the 'high' people get when not eating. Instead of the body panicking that its not eating like in normal starvation cases when you have an ED you feel a 'high' and it feel amzing and addicting to not eat, like your brain os rewarding yourself for not eating
I do intermittent fasting, and the science shows that this high is not specific to EDs, it happens to anyone who voluntarily fasts long enough, e.g. 20 hours every day like I do. I get euphoria from it and I'm still overweight (losing steadily), so it's not an anorexic thing. It is actually incredibly good for your brain if you can do it without becoming addicted, because of processes like autophagy and increased BDNF and insulin and cortisol leveling out throughout the day, even gamma waves in the brain are increased which makes you feel more alert.
I think the problem is that for people in a lot of distress whose distress is not COMPLETELY removed by healthy fasting, this can be addictive, as the temptation is to take the fasting too far in an attempt to eliminate all negative emotions and all complex worries about non-food/body issues.
It's something I have to keep an eye on because I started intermittent fasting to cure the intense mood swings a hormone medicine was giving me. It worked from the first day, amazing, but I wonder, if it had only HALF worked, would I have pushed harder and harder and actually starved myself? Possibly. And it could still happen, but the benefits are enormous for multiple health issues I'm diagnosed with.
I hope that the links between what is being learned about intermittent fasting and teh development of anorexia nervosa are studied soon, at the moment they are being studied separately. There might be a way to utilise what is learned in medicine, taking something that fasting does, "bottling it" and giving it to people with neuropsychiatric disorders, for example. Because people who stop eating - not just in anorexia nervosa but also depression and grief - might be intuitively healing their own brain just as people with acute infections intuitively stop eating to help the body fight the infection better, they just don't know how to go about it the healthy way and often become addicted.
I'm almost 4 months in anorexia recovery and it's hard but so worth it. for anyone waiting to feel ready to recover, you will never feel ready so you have to do it anyway
thank u so much for this. Im gonna start recovering. I hope u are doing well :)
I stopped eating for a period of time when I was in highschool. I later realized I was using food to make up for all the trauma in my life that I couldn't control.
I remember mom sitting down with me and forcing me to eat in front of her. Thankfully I never continued starving myself. In saying that, I still love having control in other areas of my life...I am a big proponent of planning and doing everything I can to do things well in life.
I ended up developing an eating disorder AFTER consistently being bothered about how skinny I am. Everyone thought I was starving myself so I would binge eat and couldn't bring myself to stop.
Moral of the story: don't bother people about their bodies because people are just people
This is such an excellent episode. I have been struggling with EDNOS for over five years and could definitely relate to a lot of the content mentioned here.
It’s very interesting that you brought up the topic of calorie counting and tracking apps. They definitely made my disordered eating a lot worse, but I can understand why people need these apps. They were unfortunately just not for me.
When it comes to counting calories in eating disorder treatment: yes, sometimes dieticians do use calorie counting. This was a terrible approach for me, yet my dietician refused to stop and I was stuck in a very difficult situation where I had to count my calories or be hospitalised for my recovery. This second option terrified me because I would have to take a year of school. I did what I had to but as soon as I turned 18, I left my treatment centre and have been managing this myself. This truly ruined my view of disordered eating treatment and I still fear reaching out for help.
I've had bulimia and anorexia between the ages of 11 and 20, and also had relapses when experiencing severe depression later in life - usually in 10 year cycles.
One of the huge factors as to why I had these was because my mother was permanently on dieting, and critical of her own weight and of mine. Also, my younger sister was always complimented for how slim and pretty she was where as I was the academic, plain Jane. Seeing my mother constantly on diets taught me to hate food.
As a result of having bulimia I have messed my teeth up completely - stripped the enamel and have exposed gums; I have swollen glands in my neck all the time; I made my epilepsy worsen significantly.
One of the toughest things with coming to terms with and overcoming these disorders was that to so many people, these are considered to be vanity: however, my bulimia was how I controlled my depression, and how I internalised abuse I was experiencing as a child and teen. The purging was both punitive and in a very disturbing way me showing myself this was all I deserved. All my diary entries as a teenager say I feel fat where as as an adult re-reading them I realise I meant I feel sad.
I am in my mid-40s now and although I have never been happy with my weight, I manage it now by running 3 times a week and train to focus on being strong and healthy (good heart rate, strength, stamina and flexibility).
Eating disorders are not always about food control and body dysmorphia - though these are often the starting point - they can be coping mechanisms for clinical depression and other linked mental health issues.
had to stop listening when you started listing the calories in some foods (around minute 59:00). it's not about the episode being triggering in and of itself, but my relationship with food has been so skewed by my eating disorder that i KNOW any information about calories will stick in my head, ready to pop up whenever i'm eating that thing. i'm also working on fighting these thoughts by eating anyway, i've been working on it for four years now (i didn't even realise so much time had passed, oh my god). i'm both physically and mentally extremely healthier than when it all started, but does it mean i'm recovered? i don't think so. nonetheless, i hope one day i'll get there (sorry for any mistakes, i'm not english
Yeah im particularly bad with lots of calorie talk despite being recovered for a while. I try an ignore in day to day life but as its being discussed alongside eating disorders i think it makes it extra triggering. I know i will be fine but its extra uncomfy 😅
Cw mention of previous eating disorder and calories consumed during this time in the last paragraph (its in the brackets if you want to avoid).
My fitness pal definitely contributed to my eating disorder, i had eating disorders before smartphones were a thing and i tracked it manually/in my head. But it was far easier to do that on my fitness pal.
Also, there was a feature many years ago (probably 12 years ago) that when you submitted your daily food they then said "if you continue to eat this way you will weigh [number]lbs in 8 weeks*" (the asterisk was like a disclaimer). In subsequent relapses this had been removed from my fitness pal. So yeah, that was particularly problematic, especially as they allowed you to set goals far lower than you should (i was eating under 500 kcals a day and happily tracking this in lots of my relapses, i was also able to add in my exercise of like 1000kcals or more, leaving myself minus calories etc daily).
I heard that with movies like wolverine, they'll schedule all the topless scenes close together so the actor doesn't have to be dehydrated for as long.
I have a complicated relationship with food. Even if I probably don’t quite meet the definitions of the eating disorders mentioned, but I was told by doctors in middle school I needed to go on a ‘see food diet’ or see food, eat it. I was a very tall and extremely thin child, but I never really felt hungry. I kept this ‘diet’ up through college, got to a ‘healthy’ weight, but to this day I rarely feel hungry and I have to have someone to remind me to eat. My natural tendency towards not eating much ended up working out for me since I have a pain condition that has left me disabled and my caloric intake turns out to be exactly right to maintain my weight in the face of a lack of ability to exercise. To complicate things further I have EoE (Eosinophilic Esophagitis) which in my case has an indeterminate cause, so I just randomly choke on food I’m eating due to inflammation narrowing my esophagus. This can also leads to food avoidance for obvious reasons. So I definitely have disordered eating. Edit: Huh the avoidant/restrictive food intake disorder might actually fit….
Through middle school, high school, and college I had a bad relationship with food. I would often get comments, even from friends and family saying " I wish I could eat and stay as skinny as you" Them not knowing that was the only thing I ate I the last 24+hrs. In college it got so bad I only ate after I passed out.
Oh my goodness. This is honestly where I'm at now. I genuinely don't enjoy eating much due to sensory issues and when life gets tough for me, food goes out the window pretty quickly since it takes a real conscious effort to make myself eat. I never really ate much and have never been over 100 pounds in my life (amab in middle 20's), but I've been struggling a lot lately and I only eat when I'm to the point where I'm shaking and dizzy. I get so many well intentioned comments about my figure, especially now as I'm a woman, but they don't know that it's one of the worst, most unsolvable problems in my life and I want nothing more than to gain weight.
Sorry that was probably a lot and has no point, but I'm happy you shared your experience
this is why i didn’t have a chance of recovery while still living with my mother. her constant comments about being ‘jealous’ of me and always turning any hint of concern into ‘nah you’re just very healthy’ (spoiler: that was not the case) only made things worse. in addition to her being the entire cause for the problem in the first place, having given me these issues since I was 3 or earlier - for as long as I can remember. i have fully physically recovered and almost fully mentally recovered now that I’m living away from her and I couldn’t be happier. I just fear seeing her next, whenever that may be, and I hope it won’t undo any progress
I've had eating disorders (different ones that oscillate at different points in my life) since I was young. I'm slowly making progress to recover 🤙🏻
Regarding calorie counting, a personal anecdote: I would not say they will "cause" an eating disorder by themselves, but they definitely were one of the first triggers for me that led to one. My neurodivergence makes me cling to numbers in a weirdly obsessive way that is not even fully logical at times (eg. it also happens with my finances and one way around it is using a separate account for certain purchases) and therefore I kept wanting to stay below a certain number and that number kept getting lower and lower. I did not start using the apps while already doing poorly, I feel like the interface of the apps specifically indulged this type of obsession and triggered it in someone that would anyway be inclined to it.
I never had an eating disorder, but I did have disordered eating. Basically some calorie counting and as an autistic and adhd person, health became a special interest of mine. never to an extreme. Thankfully.
Im not daignosed with an ED. But my therpist and I have been talking about me having anorexia or something similar (so prob osfed). And for me it's not just one thing that contributed to that, and I think that for most people with EDs there are multiple things that has happened/is happneing that puts you at risk for having an ED.
For example for me I'm quite perfectionistisc. And I struggle a lot with not being the "ideal" person. But also on top of that I grew up overwieght and was shamed for it. I struggle with gender dysphoria. And I have very little self-esteem (which I think is the most common cause for having an ED, but that's just an opinion). And the main thing that sort of made me restrict my eating was depression. I just didnt have the energy to eat food, and then as that happened all of this other stuff budged in and felt like this was a good habit to continue doing.
I have suffered from disordered eating for years and only really realised it around May last year when my partner at the time said I was basically anorexic. At first, I thought that I had ARFID however after some reflection I discovered that I do have some underlying negative views on my weight. I really related to when you spoke about the eating not being in our control. Some days I'm fine and will eat without complaint, but other days even looking at food makes me want to be sick. There are different types of disordered eating; such as Anorexia Nervosa, Bulimia Nervosa & Binge-eating. I've been working towards getting better after I weighed myself and realised that I lost 6.8kg over 10 months and I am 14 years old. For clarity, I started at 60kg in Jan and ended at 53.2kg in Oct.
i beat Luke very easily
Yes. I have had several relapses of EDNOS/other, didnt ever fit any of the specific criterias. I have found that being body neutral has been very helpful for me. I am currently overweight but I choose not to try and lose weight due to not being able to do it without taking it too far and becoming obsessed so i just put up with the body i have and im happy with that. Im going to see how much of this episode i am going to be able to watch as I find eating disorder stuff one of the hardest trigger (although you literally cannot avoid weight loss talk in every day life, and usually in unhealthy ways too, so its one im used to).
I've come close to an eating disorder a few times. I started making myself vomit but thankfully pulled myself together relatively quickly.
@29:00 I would be curious is "eating even when not hungry" would include people with bad interoception - who can't tell if they are hungry or not in gerneral, the wording didn't seem to crarify.
Notes from an autistic perspective;
I think the idea of 'intuitive eating' is incredibly damaging. Autistic people tend to have quite bad interoception so if I eat when I feel hungry, I just won't eat. It reminds me of a parenting technique I've seen a lot that's basically just 'if my if doesn't eat what's on their plate, they're going to bed hungry' which for many autistic kids, would just lead to malnourishment.
The only way I will remember to eat is if it's scheduled and the food is immediately there. During lockdown, I made a packed lunch at the start of the day and ate it at the same time every day. (The logic being that cooking times are always different so if I start making lunch at 1, one day I could be eating at 1:20, another at 2 and that's enough difference in times that I won't always register it as 'lunch time') I can't talk for other autistic people but if the only way I'd eat is 'when I feel like it', I'd never eat and when I would, it would be safe foods.
In terms of arfid for myself, it is mainly concerning consistency in foods, and knowing what's in there! My safe foods are things like sushi, chips, plain pasta, haggis, lasagna etc. Most of these safe foods are either incredibly plain (both in flavour and in simplicity) or layered in some way. Take something like sushi, I can see all the elements and while in one food are quite separate compared to fried rice or a curry. Where I really struggle is when I can't tell what's inside a food so things like spring rolls. Another thing is texture so stuff like mayonnaise: I have given up on meal deals, they pretty much all have mayo. If stores just consistently had even just a standard ham and cheese with no mayo (and included it in the actual meal deal !!), it would definitely save a lot of autistic people I know, myself included.
(would love an arfid episode - u guys are great)
I have had/have an eating disorder, since I was about 8 years old unfortunately. Even though I would say I'm relatively recovered (in that I am able to maintain a healthy weight and eat normally-ish) I would say that it still has a daily impact of my life and almost every single waking moment is controlled by my thoughts of food and my body in some way. I hope one day this will end, as I'm now 23 and honestly am growing immensely tired of it 💀💀
I definitely won the quiz this time 🤣
another great episode guys! i think bigorexia is super interesting and deffo something you should look into!
I have this thing (idk if it counts as echolalia if I'm not saying it out loud) where random words and phrases, often abbreviations, will bouce around my brain for ages. The day this came out, my brain was constantly saying ARFID at me.
They finally fixed the episode numbering problem 😱. My OCD can finally rest 😭.
Typo in thumbnail :P Excited for this episode!
I am overly worried about weight and way under eat. I am working against it daily. Im trying to gain mustle and its so hard to ingnore the want to lose weight. Its very difficult.
I feel like with the frequency that Corry comments on the unhealthy nature of body building and gym culture there could be a deep dive on just Anorexia Athletica. I struggled with Anorexia Athletica for most of my life before realizing I was trans and figuring out that the issue was *wear* the fat was going, not the fat. It wasn't until years later that I found out that there was a word for what I did and that it was, in fact, an eating disorder. It's hard to think of something that isn't directly interacting with you eating as an eating disorder, so a lot of anorexia athletica cases go undiagnosed.
great episode)
It is sad that in common language, the NERVOSA is dropped
Anorexia is just not feel like eating, which you can get with certain medication or illnesses Any person can experience anorexia, like when you are hangover or something
The thing I noticed (which doesn´t have to be the truth) is that people with anorexia nervosa want to have control, but it extends to over the people they are with
I find them extremely manipulative
Of course this is just my experience, based on a small number of people
But it did influence me
I beat Luke. Sorry Luke. As someone with ARFID, I rattle off the acronym almost every time I verbalize it to someone XD
can confirm the A stands for AAAAAAAAAAA
What if you make an episode on how to feed yourself?
Yes! I was "vegan " but i used it to deny myself food.
Does anyone know the 'redesigning packaging' tiktok he mentions?
I've never been diagnosed with one but I definitely have a unhealthy relationship with food and kind of use food as a way to self harm. Both my sisters have had eating disorders though.
Did you guys do this before or is the deja vu just me?
I don’t think I’ve got any eating disorders, I’ve certainly not been diagnosed with any, but some people in my life think I have ARFID
I would’ve loved to see women on this episode to give more of an insight into how it greatly affects our gender
As a hip dip laden chick I wish that was the trend but alas leggings just look weird on me
For me, with or without media I would've become anorexic/bulimic because it's just about control. I only sought out proana forums which introduced me to images and encouragement after I'd become very sick
I only paid attention to the messages from general media and society after I was sick too. I had selective hearing hahaha. I still do and I still have that ed voice but I can say "fuck off" now haha
Also, it's been years since I've been active in my ed and I still have issues with intuitive eating. I struggle to read my body's signals because I ignored them for years. I'm overweight now due to this as I can over eat or under eat by accident so my weight yo yos. Still, I'd take this any day.
i definitely beat luke but tbf it's only cos i have it
The only thing that should be on the menu is ultra processed or not, and omega 6 oils so pwoplw can boycott those things until the producers of those poisons go out of business through everybody saying no more.
Is it just me who’s wondering where jamp has been recently
Jamp left the podcast last August.
Yeah I noticed did he ever say why?