Toolroom Prototype Smith & Wesson No.3 Revolver
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Good inventors are always trying out new solutions to problems. Those solutions may or may not work (hence Thomas Edison’s 10,000 ways not to make a light bulb), but the attempts can often give us interesting insight into the designer’s intentions. In this case, we have a toolroom S&W No3 revolver with a different method of opening in which the action is fits rotated to the side, and then the barrel tipped forward. It is based on US Patent #136348, granted to Daniel Wesson in February of 1873, and in the patent he describes his intention to solve several theoretical shortcomings of the No3 design, both in handling and manufacture.
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The "over-up-down-over" you're talking about is called compound articulation, and it is something to be avoided in mechanical design. You only use it when you have no other choice to make a desired system work. From an engineering perspective, this is a step backward from the first design.
This also seems to prevent the use of a speedloader
One less spring though so some improvement there.
Plus that action looks really cool right? But yeah overall not an improvement
When I looked that up, I got stuff about language.
@@Seth9809 yeah as a linguist, I'm only aware of "compound articulation" being a term in articulatory phonetics. Google suggests that's the main use of the term.
It means it moves in more than one direction.
"this pistol attempts to solve a specific problem, it might interest you Mr. Wick." intones Ian. Later, after having dispatched 9 bad guys "reloading is a bit tedious" says Wick, "what else do you have available today?"
I think it'd be cool if he did a "development" video for the S&W no. revolvers like he did for the Colt 1911 a few years ago.
that would be pretty interesting one. love those old tip-ups
I’ve been wanting that for a while. I love the Model 10’s. Would be cool to see the development of the M&P series revolvers.
I agree to a tee.. 👍👌
The only issue is that he uses auction firearms for these videos. The firearms you're talking about were part of a collection being auctioned that month.
@@ILikeToLaughAtYou This x100. The Model 10 is the GOAT
At the point of this thing they might as well have just ditched the top break altogether, let the pin rotate out to 90-ish degrees, and just extend the extractor rod out the front so it could be actuated manually. Its kind of amazing how close this is to inventing the swing out cylinder (and barrel) before the swing out cylinder.
Top break S&Ws are beautiful, especially the double action ones.
Yes...agree! I'm lucky to own one of the old Navy Arms reproduction Schofield's (with faux ivory grips) and it's one of the prettiest revolvers ever made without doubt.
I just wish that Russian top break 357 magnum the mp-412 I think, had both made it to production and made its way to the states.
@@TheBigSomec the REX? Oh my god if only.
I've always found the peacemaker far more aesthetic for whatever reason.
I love my Uberti Schofield. Would like to have a Webley in a reasonable caliber, or that Russian Rex.
Talk about coming at a problem sideways...
Yeah I might still be a little drunk from last night.
As was the designer
Nice....all I have left is a slight headache....
@@RalphReagan BINGO!
A complex solution to a simple problem. Instead of holding down a ratchet latch, you have to twist, and then break the revolver? Worth a shot, I guess.
You, my friend, are a constant joy.
Yesterday I watched, or re watched, the segments you did on the Steyr Hahn some years go. Then this morning I'm watching a clip from Peaky Blinders, and there sits Alphie, Tom Hardy, being his Alphiest, a 1812 Steyr Hahn hanging comfortably in his hand.
I like those Oh!-Hey! moments. Sets you up for the day. Well, that and coffee.
The If This Is Hell, It Looks A Lot Like Matgate scene.
An interesting halfway point between break-open and swing-out cylinders.
My sentiments exactly 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
True
I can easily see this gun being damaged because of improperly closing it, the ratchets and the closing catch would be very dent prone with this design when you close it straight instead of by the side
"The high point of any particular collection" has a new meaning nowadays
I don't know of any collectors that would actually own up to owning a hi-point... Do you?
No, probably not
Improvised bludgeon collectors would
I've got a Model 1, and it's amazing how far S&W advanced between that relatively crude little .22 short, where you had to remove the cylinder and manually eject cases on a rod under the barrel, and the Model 3, which would still be relevant in some ways today.
I have a reproduction of the Smith and Wesson Russian army revolver and although it's definitely obsolescent, it wouldn't be completely out of the fight in a self-defense situation. In some ways, firearm technology hasn't advanced a lot in the past 100 years, particularly in comparison to the 100 years before that.
Wouldn’t it have just been easier to keep the regular top break method and just make the extractor a manual push rod? So you could push it and eject all the cartridges or not and load them singly if desired?
Far too simple
This looks German... unnesersarily complicated.
Richard Taylor I was thinking French: non-sequitur.
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive If it were a French revolver then I would expect it to be elegant, simple but whimpy.
In that you are right, but I suppose that at that time there were lovers of complex mechanisms.
That's a little weird.
I do want a pair of Schofields, though.
You've enjoyed 3:10 to Yuma, didn't you?😉
Oh man, I’m not the only one lol.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine I'd buy that. Basically a modernized Webley.
@@whitecoffee8090 would you believe I haven't seen that movie?
I just want the Schofields because the Single Action Army is painfully slow to reload.
@@ScottKenny1978 then you ought to. It's quite good.
5:57 when reloading is like the Contra cheat code, you know it's time to go back to the drawing board.
Look! The answer to the problem nobody ever had!
Sadly, there's a whole lotta 'solutions' like that running loose in the world.
That's what raw experimentation looks like. That's how improvements occur...lots of ideas, and you sift out the crap ones ..or the ones that are too expensive to retain.
seems like he was trying to work around black powder fouling but then smokeless came around
@@Stevarooni And perhaps learn tooling and production concepts yet undiscovered.
Thank you! I just learned something new about my S&W Frontier. There is a little button on the bottom of the gun that allows the extractor to not remove the bullets from the cylinder.
So a swing out but rather than just the cylinder, it's the entire front half of the gun.
NGL, that would fit well in something like Hunt: Showdown or in other alt-history settings.
@@therake8897 which is funny, because S&W had the patent on the top break to begin with...
@ it's pretty satisfying, though
I never knew that little protrusion at the bottom of the hinge on my H&R Sportsman was actually a functional "do not eject" switch. Neat!
I had to rewind when you first opened it. I'm so used to the No. 3 model that it looked like you just bent it. He hid the mechanism so well. Definitely interesting but I'd definitely never choose this over the standard gun lol
Not for carry anyway due to added complexity, but the pivot looks neat.
It really is a smooth motion. Well designed, but perhaps not well thought out.
Actually it WAS a normal no.3 until gun Jesus decided that was far to simple
@@Da_Shark lolol
I would love that some day some brand revive the Top break system but with modern cartridges, there is something very cool in this system, besides these classic s&w revolvers are beautiful and one of my favorites.
yes. top break with modern steel would be plenty strong. the old H and R top breaks are awesome. i just got a schofield bb gun :)
What a pleasant surprise to see this pop up this morning. I have a S&W Schofield that was made in the year 2000 that I love dearly. It's always great to hear about these great pieces of history.
The blueing, the finish on that old girl is just outstanding. I suppose they all looked like that when new. Wow.
It's awesome to be able to hold something that Daniel Wesson himself once held.
I’m so happy you made a video of this revolver! It’s my favorite from games and movies
When I first saw this in the catalog I thought his justification was to make a more repeatable lockup that was more resistant to stretching at the end of the top strap and recoil shield. Turns out he was just chasing a non-issue
Hell Ya caught this 4 minutes after upload. Keep em coming Ian I have learned so much thanks to your videos over the past few days years; you are truly doing noble work good sir!
Very cool. These S&Ws are so elegant looking. I wonder if anyone tried to get a revolver like this to only eject spent cartridges. Maybe by reducing the travel of the ejector unfired brass would remain in the cylinder. Merwin Hulbert has the coolest mechanism I think.
Hi, Ian. For looks, that is a very good looking pistol. Functionally, it was clever engineering and all, but was just a step along the way. Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
"That's what's perceived as a 'problem'" will now be added to my vernacular. Shiny.
I always learn something new when I watch your vids. Thanks!
A perfect example of a solution in search of a problem.
A really cool and obscure design.
I have to agree that is a fascinating glimpse into the minds of gunsmiths. thank you Ian that went well with my morning coffee! :-)
Beautiful! I would very gladly buy a revolver that does this as cleanly as this prototype does
I absolutely love these concept ideas. I think I'd have wanted the second iteration more than the first, but that ultimately is a matter of preference and shooting style.
That's really cool, like a Merwin & Hulbert and a S&W Model 3 hybrid.
I bought an Uberti Cimarron S&W #3 about a year ago. It’s an awesome design.
This would be insanely interesting as a double action.
As a southpaw, I would love this gun. And, with a little cylinder modification, you could definitely do half moon clips for speed loading.
Really really easy for the cylinder to get out of registration with the barrel!
Was there a fire in the background? I hear beeping...
Ahhhhhhhhh... This answers a question I had about the S&W top break. I knew - thanks to a FW video - that you could break the action *without* chucking the cartridges (as shown in this video) BUT I was left wondering how then you got hold of the cartridges to remove them??? I now notice in this video that Ian show this feature and that it *partially* springs the cartridges out - just enough for you to be able to grab the bottom of the cartridges to remove them! Many thanks! :)
Ooh, looking forward to when you get to the later iterations like the Perfected model
Dear designers:
If someone can't operate your mechanism with sweaty hands while rounds are incoming, you're not going to make many sales.
Yeah, clay pigeons and deer are known for their accuracy.
@raics That may be the case for use of today, but when these guns were designed they were very much military/personal defence - designed and used for those purposes explicitly.
@@J.DeLaPoer It was a joke, but we saw a good deal of fiddly, sometimes even dangerous mechanisms that didn't really perform as advertised even in officially adopted military pieces. The (perceived) advantages just have to outweight the potential risks and you get the deal, that, or there's just nothing better on the table at the moment and hannibal is knocking at the proverbial door.
Anyway, the point was that gimmicks sell too, sometimes.
Thats a sexy revolver, love that dark metal, and even though the design wasn't successful, I think it's really neat mechanically.
I could see value in having just the swing out, without the top break. With swinging out half the cylinder at once, you get past the Colt issue of only being able to load one round at a time, effectively halving your reload time over the main competitor to the Model 3. I'd buy a single action with the strength of the Colt lockup, where I could reload two or three rounds at once.
On the first version the lock on the receiver was easily breaking, and that is why S&W came up with the second cersion
Imagine the production guns with a little machining on the cylinder face and the addition of half-moon or full-moon clips for the cartridges like M1917.
This is the sort of thing I'd expect to be on fireplace guy's collection, not for sale at auction.
It is now, probably.
very nice revolver
That video was awesome Ian.
I think that system would be great for a big game, niche hunting gun. For deer and hogs and maybe black bear with the right cartridge. It seems like that top-strap would be potentially very strong linerarly, for a two piece top open frame.
Attention RIA, Ian McCallum has been stealth camping within your facility for some time now.
Public: Wouldn't it be great if this cylinder swung out?
Wesson: Hold my beer.
Hey Ian, would you do a video of the Colt Coltsman Shotgun, it was Colts attempt into the Pump shotgun market during the 60’s. They were only made during 1961 -1965 with only about 2,000 made in 12ga/16ga/20ga. It has a interesting history as it was made from parts from 4 different manufacturers and the only Colt thing on it is the name and emblem on the hand guard.
I would also like to know more about it, since I just inherited it from my dad who passed in March, so contact me if you are interested in examining it
Two top breaks in a week. Let's have more!!
Finally was waiting for this one
Thats cool. Id have kept the eject set up for sure though
To be fair, even with all this explanation from the designer, it feels like a step back.
Was this patented before the swing out cylinder? If not, this seems to foreshadow the swing cylinder. The side swivel would seem to be stronger than the the normal break top where a mechanism is the lock rather than a solid piece of frame.
Swivel then tilt certainly seems awkward. I could see as the gun gets some wear that could get floppy and maybe get into a mode where it gets jammed.
Once again, thanks Ian for another obscure gun that we wouldn't know existed without you prowling the auction houses.
Interesting to see an example of the kind of thought processes that lead to improvements even if this one was a dead end. I expect there were more deadends than successful changes. You can definitely see the Merwin & Hulbert influence. By the way, that second gun didn't seem to have the features normally associated with a Russian model, more like a #3 American, perhaps chambered in 44 Russian. Or was that something unusual too or maybe just a slip of the tongue?
That beeping sound in the background had me checking on the dishwasher like three times before I figured out that it was from the video...
I thought I was getting tinnitus.
@@svtirefire Your wife must be better than mine if you think that before checking on the dishwasher... 😁
@@tobiash4727 My wife IS my dishwasher!
@@svtirefire You should care more about her. Check on her if she makes sounds like that.
Very beautiful looking gun
In my mind this is a so, so solution to a non existent problem. Great, great video as usual!
Fun fact: Red Dead 2 has a hidden Schofield revolver you can retrieve in Valentine. It involves robbing a hidden gang business operation behind the doctor’s building. When retrieving the gun, Arthur or John opens the cylinder in the same way as we see in this video (albeit, in the opposite direction).
Many people complained that this isn’t how a Schofield should be opened at all, and they’re right to complain since after retrieving the gun, Arthur or John would reload the Schofield normally. Not only that, but the design of the Schofield does not match the prototype. They never knew this prototype exist and that R* motion capture team were likely using this model when filming that animation.
Interesting idea, if a tad finicky. I can imagine that this potentially makes the frame stronger too, the way the top strap attaches more securely to the back (kinda like the M&H revolvers, only the pivot point is at the bottom).
I don’t know, it’s not just interesting, but the pivot looks cool too. If the ejector was manually operated, I would enjoy owning this as a variant. Though it might not be best as a carry considering it added a layer of complexity to operation.
its a one of a kind historical piece not something you consider for carry
Ian, I am still waiting for you to take a look at the Osgood duplex revolver. It's essentially a baby Lemat in a S&W model 3 package. It has a 22 caliber cylinder and a 32 caliber central barrel.
Don't you love how Ian casually pulls out a First Model Russian for comparison?
Make a separate button for extractor spring release that can only be activated when a certain angle has been raught? If not pushed the cartridges stay in. They will only pop out when the button is pressed.
Thank you , Ian .
This gun looks bloody good.
does this strengthen the connection though? Like would this top lock be capable of firing more powerful ammunition that the traditional latch? For the people pining for a top-Break modern Lamat in something like .357
I think the S&W #3 was the coolest of the late 19th century revolvers.
I can see why this Never left the tool room.
A solution looking for a problem.
Revolver design meets politicians.
Last thing I wanna do when reloading a weapon is to have to grab a barrel that was just fired...
You have to put two full cylinders through a revolver like this rapidly before the barrel gets hot enough that it would be a problem
@@desertfox2020 Not a great day at the range unless you have two, I guess.
@@desertfox2020 you obviously haven't gotten drunk and practiced your revolver quick draw and load I can have my baby single action army dish out two cylinders in just over 8 seconds.... while DRUNK!!
Hey Ian, awesome video as always. If you somehow could get your hands on a PP2000 I would be absolutely thrilled.
Stay healthy
It may be where the idea for the swing out cylinders on double actions.
All these unusual pistols in this auction, I wonder if they came from the same collection? Maybe even the mythical Fireplace Guy's collection.
Two revolvers in a week. Feels good.
There is never enough revolvers, ever.
I like Ian saying Rock Island Auction Company better than RIA.
Kinda off topic, I found interesting information about the Type I rifle, I tried to write it down in that old video's comment section.
Smith and Wesson was the Cannondale of the day. (crazy engineering solutions to non-problems)
I am surprised that it wasn’t mentioned that it could also chamber higher-powered cartridges with the stronger joint of the frame.
I really like the design, while I prefer the standard top break design of the Model 3, I love the attempt at rectifying the potential problems of the Model 3. As someone who's very interested in becoming an independent gun builder I'd love a deep dive into this prototype so I could maybe replicate it. Not necessarily for full on production but for shits and giggles. Granted I'm not totally sure how old ass patents work and if I would be in legal trouble building something like this even with a gun builder license. Tried reading into stuff like it and I can't understand the crap I'm reading unfortunately.
If you're operating it from horseback, I'd imagine one axis of rotation is much better than two. Think, reloading with reins in the same hand as the revolver.
There’s a robbery in Red Dead Redemption 2 where you can steal a Schofield revolver. Erroneously, when Arthur inspects it, he opens it just like this. It drove me crazy! But know I know that specific Schofield he stole was this specific make. Please, it helps me sleep at night.
Seems like maybe where the modern swing out cylinder got it's start
Seems to me that the answer to the described problem would have been larger/more easily handled lever on The original gun rather than completely new side tilting business.
But that's adding complexity to an already complex system.
@@Stevarooni Don't think so if you just enlarge the lever.
Henry Winkler the Fronz sponsored a tv show "Dead Man's Gun" blending Western stories with the Twilight Zone plotline following the passing on of a S&W #3 each episode. Replica props were provided by Val Forget of Navy Arms. This gun would have been worthy of being featured.
So the normal No 3 had the supposed undesired effect of some people inadvertently not activating the ejector override and thus ensuing an unwanted ejection.... and when one breaks this one open the ejector nicely ejects all the cartridges. I'm looking at it as though it did not solve the initial problem at all, if anything it made it worse. Also not so much less moving parts but merely moving them elsewhere to create an unwanted compound articulation.
Just what i wanted, a break action revolver with extra steps!
It is going to go for a lot of money. Thanks.
The only real advantage I can see to this is it would probably have a much stronger lockup than the normal top break latch. Unfortunately, that's kind of moot in the black powder era...
Please cover catapult Guns including the Targeteer and the Hodges forage Gun.
I saw the thumbnail and I thought they blew it up and there was going to be something significant about how they blew it up
Surely this would have been a lot stronger than the top break?
I got adverts for Pokemon and flower delivery before this vid. Makes sense to me!
Flowers for your enemies funeral. BULLETS! Gotta catch 'em all!
I just keep getting that dumb "I found a way to run my computer without a hard drive" ad, where the guy clearly has a DVD drive in his hand.
For anyone who's interested, he's trying to sell a bootable Linux thumb drive that anyone can make for free.