VR’s BIGGEST Problem Right Now
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2022
- Hello! Here is my analysis on VR game development and the industry right now. Turns out, VR Games are just RIDICULOUSLY hard to create- at least making a GOOD VR game. So many of the things that people have been relying on for decades just- don't apply to VR games.
In my opinion right now the problem isn't that there aren't enough VR games, it's that VR game development cycles are so new and difficult.
I spent the past year advising and working along side an indie VR game studio and learned a lot.
Here is AEXLAB's game, VAIL:
It just entered closed beta, request access and join the discord:
Vail VR Steam: bit.ly/3NEiDFK
Vail VR Discord: bit.ly/3nrgFxD
TMG Casting Call: bit.ly/3I61HGL
My links:
MY LINKS:
Discord:
/ discord
Twitch:
/ thrilluwu
Twitter:
/ thrilluwu
Patreon:
/ thrillseeker - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Vail key giveaways on my discord and twitch as well:
Discord.gg/Thrill
You need to play Serious Sam games in VR. Low budget, high quality, high replay value, intense gameplay. Takes Serious Sam to a new level.
But why? Isn't it going to be free to play???
@@Evilkingus the keys are for access before it gets a open beta.
@@Evilkingus It'll be f2p, but there's a few reasons why beta keys need to get paced over time.
@@weepbird036 But that begs the question - who would want to play an unfinished game? I have NEVER understood the need to do so. The developer is making it seem exclusive to do free work for them - it is the greatest scam ever.
We're so happy to be a small part of VR game development's history. Thank you to the entire community that helps make this dream a reality!
Fr
Can’t wait to play the beta
yes
Do you have plans to bring it to quest?
Tropical is hot
VR is on its way. It's almost to the point where the major issues are solved, making it easier to develop moving forward. Or at least I hope
It has been on the way for at least 30 years.
I also hope bc gaming and movies turned very boring for me for a long time. Maybe immersion will make it attractive again
@@Shadow__133 10*
@@Ootjee VR as we know it now. VR as a whole has been on the way since the 1980s with something called The Ultimate Display
@@Shadow__133 What’s it like being a caveman?
"The games don't feel immersive enough"
Spoken like a true game journalist.
This but it actually matters here lmao.
Yeah, these challenges don't really make sense, and that's top of the list of "not actually a challenge". You can put non-interactive items in a VR game, it's totally fine. Immersion is a fleeting thing. Even 2D games can have you immersed first play them, but once you get used to the game that goes away. We need more focus on making good games, not immersive experiences.
VR requires some new ideas, which is harder than copying tried-and-true 2D genres, but there's nothing fundamentally harder about it (in some ways it actually simplifies things). But games are expensive, and VR is the smallest market, so the investment for high quality games is small.
I miss Onward. That game was an experience like none other.
@@thejman3489 What happened to Onward?
@@ChrisD__ it's now shit thanks to damn quest 2 and it's user base. But mostly it's dev catering to them that they made the game a potato. Sure there's 1.7 "teams" and whatever, but it's not the same. Pcvr will always be better, but looks like it's gonna be forever shafted.
Really amazing video as always- I already know that future VR game devs are watching this and being inspired to start! :'D
Phiaseeker
👋
You're not kidding, I genuinely want to take my lack of game making knowledge and see if I can think outside the box of what is modern gaming
@@Calico1101 🤔
Actually i'm going in this way soooooooo..... you're right
I feel like we are forgetting how l9ng it took for screen games to do multi-player through other consoles. Or how long it took to get past 8 bit. Vr is really so much faster in improvement than any other genre of gaming.
That’s true! I hadn’t looked at it that way yet, you’re so right
@@brandonmotaramos5810 yah
Right!
@@TuriGamer same with vr. I don't even think we have reached the optimal form of Headwear. We keep going for glasses when helmet style could work so much better and you can put more in. We are aiming for glasses when don't have small enough motherboards or lenses or enough room for the features we want like full body, wireless, facetracking, no controller needed, ect. We already have what we want just in more chaotic, large and expensive ways. Vr is a baby. Only just now getting mainstream enough to focus on and develop more. When consoles came out. They were an immediate hit and was all the rave. Vr had a slow birth and therefore less focused beginning. Like the 3rd sibling everyone somehow forgets exist. Atari and Nintendo 64 was the oldest, ps and Xbox is the middle child that got the most attention (yes I know it's usually the 3rd who gets attention but for the sake of my example. It is what it is), pc is that cousin who somehow feels more like your brother, and vr is something that tried to happen back around ww11 but is only just now comeing out into the world.
The reason there aren't many AAA VR games has less to do with "difficulty" and more to do with the fact that VR is so expensive to enter that there are less players compared to console/PC and thus developers aren't jumping to develop for a market that has such a smaller player base than traditional consoles. But personally I disagree with the reason given at shareholder meetings on why game development companies aren't developing VR as even relatively simple games sell extremely well due to there being less games on the market. A well polished AAA VR game is almost certain to become a hit on such a market just because players have less choice in AAA VR games.
I love VR-Gaming because of this wild west feeling we all have.
Traditional gaming innovation is slowed down because most of the rules, how games work, are set.
VR-Gaming is like the 90s where very weird games came out because nobody knew how a game is supposed to work.
Yeah, but we had brilliant single player PC games in the 90's. Currently VR is full of multiplayer choice and some mediocre (or worse) single player games. Since i find multiplayer games incredibly boring (no story, no world to explore, no interesting characters to interact with) i find it difficult to remain interested in VR. Currently it's VR ports by DrBeef, Luke Ross, PreyDog etc that make it worthwhile. It's the only shimmer of hope for VR gaming atm, for me.
Really like the way you broke down the pains and awesomeness of making quality VR content! I've been a dev for 4 years and I'm still learning so much. Although this vid was a superficial showcase of the complexities of development, I really think you are breaking ground in bringing devs and gamers closer together. Great work Thrill! I'm officially subscribed forever!
Man I really appreciate all the people who work endless hours to develop these games for us to play and make content on!
They prefer your money though :D
@@kroooassant9899 true lol
@@kroooassant9899 That's why you pirate them lol duh
They are artists they love doing , the ones that see it as “work” develop games like the ping pong game on oculus
@@noompsieOG They also need food in their mouth at least once a day and a computer to make their art on. And that needs to come from somewhere.
As the captain of psychosis (comp VR eSports team for those who don't know), these issues that you mention create lots of friction in vr gaming. Playspacing is a huge pain in the ass, and creates unnecessary advantages. Thank you Aexlab for fixing things up and polishing your game.
Could you explain how playspacing would give you an advantage?
@@spacemanspiff7283 it allows you to peek around corners at increased speed and get back into cover too quickly, outside of the constraints of the game's movement.
69th like
@@lilgoose8368 if this can be demonstrated somehow, it could help shed light on the problem; most of us are unaware that the playspace problem even exists or don't know how it works.
@@X1erra it can't be demonstrated here in the reply section, but imagine the games movement stacking with real life movement for a speed boost
I grew up with the Amiga and at that time it felt like there was a lot of flexibility in terms of how to make a game. Some developers seemed like they were just throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks, and that was one of the things I really loved about gaming at that time. In the last 20 years of flatscreen gaming, however, this hasn't really been the case and we have had more of a refinement of existing standards. I can't lie, the best games i've ever played have all been from this period of refinement, but I still feel like some excitement was lost.
VR gaming is a return to that early age of experimentation, and I feel very lucky to get to experience it all over again. Once standards have settled we will again lose something that we can't really get back. As users we should all enjoy it while it lasts, but developers will probably be happier when we're past this era and some hard-won wisdom can be a solid basis for their ideas.
Well said, feeling the same as an old Amiga gamer.
VR IS FAILING!! Steam is being investigated for running a monopoly (GUILTY). Steam PASSES OFF tech problems and tells customers to "find a local tech person" IT IS OVER!!
I feel like VR games, despite there being great ones out there, it's still in it's baby phase, or as you call it the Wild West, where the rules don't exist, yet. I believe that VR still has a lot more years to fully become a great platform, and Aexlabs is one of those leading game developers that is leading the charge.
I did my final project in VR. A chinese lady came up to me and said "9 years, in 9 years VR is going to take off." in broken English.
the thing is, the same thing happened with 3d games, vr needs a game like super mario 64 or a doom, a game that sets the standard and show us what could it be
Another great video, thanks for covering the big and important topics of this industry.
I hope VAIL results in success for AEXLAB. It's currently a catch-22 of low audiences equalling lack of investment for VR projects equalling low audiences, and we'll only break out of it with ambitious projects from dedicated developers like these guys willing to push the boundaries of gaming experiences. Excited to check it out when it's ready.
VR IS FAILING!! Steam is being investigated for running a monopoly (GUILTY). Steam PASSES OFF tech problems and tells customers to "find a local tech person" IT IS OVER!!
I agree with this, there aren’t as many good VR games out let alone VR ports
I wish a game like Ready Or Not had a VR port like so many others
But even having that said there are still plenty of issues (Notably player count and community) that have to be overcome to make creating a new vr game and or port
Are you talking about Skyrim or Fallout VR? Or even L.A. Noire?
A RON VR port would be amazing
I feel like I've watched someone play a VR game with a very similar concept; multiplayer FPS with SWAT-like missions; save hostages, capture/kill bad guys, etc. Can't recall the name, though.
Search for Fast and Low VR
Search up geronimo VR,pretty much a ready or not,groundbranch clone for VR.
One of the things I find hardest about vr dev is switching from my monitor to headset. It may not seem like much but all that time adds up
I can't recommend enough using virtual desktop to avoid those issues ;)
The VR gaming industry becoming appealing to investors is a double-edged sword. The games may get bigger, but answering to investors is also how you get EA, and that's gross.
indie devs are the way to go imo
Loot boxes in VR?
Ill always love VR. But I think for youtube its time for me to move on from that platform exclusivity...
That’s actually pretty fair. Habie does a great job mixing VR and non VR content
@@ThrillSeekerVR habie has such good content
@@ieatcowboyhats264 facts
@@ThrillSeekerVR Habie's secret sauce is not giving a f---. Just doing what he likes and sharing it with the world.
Doesn't hurt that he's a naturally gifted writer/editor.
I did my dissertation on vr game dev in ue4 and in my report conclusion I found a lot of the things you talked about. So often non game devs don’t give the full picture and I was so pleasantly surprised. Amazing video
This is a great video. I've been a programmer for a long time, and a lot of people don't understand a lot of this conceptual stuff, don't get how hard it is, just want good stuff now. It's good to see some people at least acknowledge all the hard work going into this.
I feel sorry for all the people who work so hard making games for me just to spend 100% of my time playing beat saber
I'm old. I started on Atari's last leg. At that time I couldn't want playstation graphics on an Atari because we didn't even know polygon 3d was a thing. Thrill explains this well here! Can't wait to experience what these devs have done! Warming up in Wardust currently.
It’s this kinda of video I’m really reminded that you’re a journalist at heart I think. And honestly I’m really thankful for people like you who have a passion they want to share but thrill you are so pro that it’s not just let’s plays and game reviews, it’s the whole Industry you report on.
Thanks for another great video!
I started as a flatscreen game dev and for a while now I'm working as a VR game developer and this video is on point. To paint an even clearer image, here's how I explain to people:
Making a movie is like creating a pre-recorded magic show. You can use editing, lighting, camera angles, etc to help sell the illusion.
Making a flatscreen game is like doing an in-person magic show to a live audience in a theater. Much harder as you can only rely on your own sleight of hands and misdirection skills.
Making a VR game is like being blindfolded, telling a volunteer what to do over the radio, and making a magic show happen out in the open for everyone all around to see, fooling even the volunteer themself.
best comment legit
As a VR developer, this resonates deeply. Thanks for putting this together to share with others some insider details about the challenges of developing for this medium.
I've always said I would get into VR once the hardware was accessible, affordable, and had a great selection of VR supported titles for me to come over to it.
The day is finally closing in, and I'll be diving into it in just a couple months. I can't wait to jump in and see this industry grow, as I just cannot wait for the day when hopping into VR is just the normal thing to do.
What headset are you planning on getting?
@@Phoenix-jd4yf Simply the Quest 2 to start, mainly for it being in my price range. When you consider how many game titles you want to buy, the cost of getting into VR is much more than just the headset itself.
Luckily was able to get Skyrim VR for 50% off during the Steam Sale recently, though.
@@FrontwaysLarry That is very true, after I bought the quest, I was surprised how much the cost of games cut into my budget lol
@@Phoenix-jd4yf I want to see UE5 graphics on my headset, waiting till I can get that.
@@SanctuaryLife Yea ive not been doing VR because to me it did not look good enough, a few more years and ill jump back in
Ive been loving Vail VR. Artifact mode is where it is at for me.
Awesome video! Definitely brings a lot of insight into how hard it is to make VR games and how much potential there is in the future for the medium as a whole
Thrill, I’m so glad you did this video! I’m newer to VR (1 year) but being new allows me to see what you’re talking about! Devs don’t get enough credit for all the hard work they do! Sometimes people expect way too much! I’m in your discord and Vails discord. I can’t wait to be able to try their game. I requested early access and if I get it, that’ll be great but if not I’ll wait. Thank you for making a video to explain how complicated it can be to not only make a true VR game but to please the community! The modding community has been awesome too but to build a VR game from the ground up is another story! Thank you again for this video and for all your hard work! I appreciate it!
Another issue developing for VR is comfort. Taking the headset on/off to test things gets annoying, but it also amplifies the focus issues of the optics. Those issues don't bother me much when settling into a gaming session because my eyes get time to adjust. But jumping in and out plus looking at code seems to mess with my visual comfort. That said, getting to truly step into a scene you created is a magical experience!
As difficult as vr design is, I think we're making pretty good progress. Thinking about vr in 2015 compared to 2020 is actually impressive, like if you told me about boneworks in 2015, I would think that would be something to come out in about 10 years, but it only took people 5 to get a handle on a key aspect that's also one of the hardest things to get right in vr. So sure right now games may be a little dry and experimental, but once we get the ball rolling vr may be a common appliance sooner than you think. I've heard people say vr's going to take over and I doubted it, but when I thought about how fast it's actually evolving, I reconsidered
Thanksies for educating me on what it takes to be a VR game developer. I have been playing Population One VR from Jan 2021 and streaming for the last 9 months and I do complain on how broken the game is and all its bugs but I still play everyday because I do love it haha. I'm excited to check out Vail as I do tend to burn out from Pop and am always looking for new VR gamsies to play
Really love your chilled, big-picture conscious talking and trying to see all aspects of the VR oecosystem. I can tell you are really making a difference @ThrillSeeker! Thanks so much
My favorite part about VR that factors into the experience but also the difficulty in making VR is what you mentioned, the fact that every little detail, small animation and simple button press has become a full blown action. Now even the most seasoned Vet in an FPS might fumble a reload on the run or completely miss a super easy melee attack, and yet the true VR players can pull off some incredible moves that no flat screen game could ever dream of.
If this game desing theory was true, the mods that turn your games into VR would be horrible, but they dont, shure they are not perfect, but, its not that complicated, just make a PlayerController with VR controls, and make the game as normal, when somethings starts to feel wrong, just adapt it to VR and voila... Unity Developer here, Greetings, great video!. Shure game desingn is different, but not a whole lot, this can be tackled in many ways, but I thing my apoproarch in the suggestion I've made is a good start. works for me.
Thrillseeker, you mentioned the challenge of scale in VR. This could also be worked into a huge advantage that 2D is not capable of.
Imagine a game say called "Scale" where the player determines their size at any given time, so say, they'd have the power to pick up a guitar, or disappear into the guitar and explore its structure. Better still, give the player the power to determine their own size in relation to their surroundings.
The advantage for the game designer is, if you have already created the guitar, then let the game player decide scale. Think of the game possibilities. It's a holographic tree of possibilities leading right down the rabbit hole!
Ant Man the Game
@@dtrainbcca Just watched a segment on TH-cam. Pretty good, I think we'll see more scale-related games as time goes by.
Hit on so many good points in this video! When even classic issues like "the door problem" are made more difficult by VR, it really is a conundrum. Been a tough process to work around a lot of design struggles in the past few months I've spent working on my game 😅
Vr game dev is a new medium for us, I've been in flat screen dev for four years now, and moving to vr for one of our game add-ons has been ... infinitely harder, there's so much to understand, which we fully do, the execution however is.. entirely foreign and we're still gaining our legs. We're essentially in the SNES Era of vr development still. We know the fundamentals but we can only climb from here
You, and Aexlab say this hasn't been done in VR before. I woud really love to see a video that explains the difference between Vail and Pavlov, Onward, Population One (different genre i know) and other games like those?
Love the game dev interviews, hope to see more in the future!
Your channel is amazing!!! Keep up the good work, i love VR and its really sad that it has not become more popular today
I really appreciate you and your content. For me you are the #1 VR source on YT and I wish more people would see your videos and get into VR.
I just finished the Immersive media program at OCC and it’s definitely a lot harder than traditional game design. Especially if you are new to game development like myself. It’s also very exciting to be at the forefront of a new medium while the rules are being written.
That's actually some great timing xD
Planned to do a flat screen game when I get my computer, but VR game development is definitely something I'm considering in the future 👁️
Thank you Thrill! Your videos are awesome 😎
PS: I love FPS games so Vail is definitely in my radar! 👍😎
i hope you like matrixes and linear algebra ;)
@@abcdefghijkl123454 I do xD
@@MekaniQ Don’t worry you won’t need em if you use unity and some lovely assets
VR IS FAILING!! Steam is being investigated for running a monopoly (GUILTY). Steam PASSES OFF tech problems and tells customers to "find a local tech person" IT IS OVER!!
@@vrforseniors9830 Where did you find this info?
One difficulty right now, is knowing which hardware audience you are going for. if it's mobile VR like the quest then you have to limit your polygon count, and effects to run at a decent framerate, but if it is PC VR then polygon count is only limited based on the GPU and install size you want to target. The best would be to target mobile VR and release that on PC as well, even though it might not be the fanciest of graphics, it would at least be usable by a broader audience. However targeting PC VR first is more limited, but can have incredible amounts of detail. That does not include AR or MR either, each of them require a slightly different programming to work correctly.
I agree with a lot of the points in this video that how the player interacts with the game is different, but the underlying tricks to make it run smooth are basically the same. Lower polygons, fancy shaders, baked textures/lighting, etc Those are mostly for the visuals, but can also help with the interaction too if utilized. There are tricks to make shaders fake depth and other things to give a better immersion without adding polygons, but that takes time and not everyone is versed in shaders. Main one I can think of is the bottle of liquid in half life alyx, its a shader that gives a simple model the appearance of something high detail but really is not. Unreal, and to an extent, Unity and Godot, have the "unlimited" detail thing where polygons will not be an issue in the future. The only downside to that is filesize.
What also makes VR so difficult right now is that there is not really a standard for all of the different components, as was mentioned in a prior video. OpenXR is a great start, but that is mostly just for the headset and controllers. When it comes to body suits, eye tracking, heart rate, gloves, and other interactables, I am not sure where they will fit. As the technology progresses more templates and examples will be made that can become some kind of standard, but for now it is all just trial and error to see what works and what people like the most. The controllers also do not translate the buttons as seamlessly as they should either. so what works on one system might not fully work on another. If something was designed for controllers and then you try to do it with only hand tracking, or vice a versa, then it might not work unless it has been designed for both systems. And that does not include gloves or other things that will come in the future for interaction.
So in the end its just what people want to make and as the tech advances we will see improvements on all of this.
I really want omnidirectional treadmill. Since moving ingame by locomotion, or using the joystick makes me nauseus.
The problem as I see it is abstraction. In VR, there are very few abstractions that make sense to our brain. Its there, we feel like we should be able to touch it.
Theres been a lot of work recently with using neural networks to drive complex character-world interactions based on simple stick inputs.
I wonder if that would be a good starting place for abstracting the virtual character away from the player. I dont see any reason why an NN couldnt be made to interpret your arm swings into a more perfect stylized motion seen in game.
Which type of abstractions wouldn't make sense?
If an abstraction was needed for, say, a somersault, I would probably have the character model temporarily move into a sumersault under the player's head unaffected by their actual movements, as often happens when running animations in VRChat.
As for touching things... I don't really mind if I can't touch things as also often occurs. It's all a hologram so can't be touched unless it has an interaction box. Makes sense for me. It actually caught me slightly off-guard when I realised my controllers were actually solid in VR when I got my own real VR setup for the first time, as I am not used to such holograms being solid nor did I expect things to be tracked that accurately but in this case the controllers also existed in real life as well and were tracked very accurately, so could actually interact with each other in a solid way.
What I heard from the first half is architects and interior designers now have a new path they can take their careers to truly bring their visions to reality.
Props to Thrill for this video and props to
AEXLAB for taking the leap. AEXLAB gets extra props for listening to so many different people from so many different communities about their game. They're one of the only developers that sits down with the competitive communities from other games, who are joining their community, listens to feedback and actually changes their game if they feel like it's a worthwhile balance change.
Sumatchi! Thank you for your kind words and your continued input! Excited to see where your projects, LIV and VAIL all go in the future. Much love. -aoud
This is completely unrelated to what the guy was talking about but I love his "User is Online in a Private World" shirt at 9:40
The points you make on the differences between flat-screen and vr development are truly amazing, I learned a lot from this video.
i love vr so much, its like i actually get to be a part of the gaming bubble from the 90s
Having just gotten into the VR space a few months ago, I still feel like an “early adopter” and It really is amazing to see this technology evolving so quickly.
IDK I feel like VR games have come along way since the Oculus Rift days. Playing some of the older VR games where all you do is teleport compared to stuff like Half Life Alyx, Walking Dead, ContractorsVR it feels a lot more refined and much better. Older VR games just felt like tech demos. Quest 2 feels like a huge improvement with not having to deal with the Usb Sensors and the resolution is so much better. Not to mention wireless play with airlink and the fact that its a stand alone headset too. It's come a long way since only 5-7 years or so.
Quickly? It did at the start, but now it's extremely slow. No game has reached the level of Half-Life: Alyx yet and I'm still using an Oculus Rift because anything is either lacking or too expensive.
@@Nekotaku_TV As someone who owned a Rift CV1 and a Quest 2 I would say the quest 2 is better in almost every single way. The sensors of the CV1 is so annoying. I had 3. I was always having to recalibrate them. I would say that's the biggest improvement when it comes to hardware. It just too so long to set up and play. The #1 thing that made me not play VR games. Such a hassle. The guardian system of the Quest2 is far superior in terms of ease of use and I haven't really noticed any negatives in tracking. And the Quest 2's much higher resolution is the second part. Rift CV1 is just too blurry. I used it with a 1060, and a 1080ti and the games were still too blurry. I find with the improve resolution, and frame rate I can play much longer without getting a headache. And the wireless functionality of Airlink and Virtual Desktop is far superior to a wired connection. Now I do Link cable as well but even then the link cable is so much lighter than the heavy cables of the CV1. Not to mention the stand alone capability. I bought it for mostly PCVR but now I'm finding myself using it 50/50.
@@chan13153 "The sensors of the CV1 is so annoying. I had 3. I was always having to recalibrate them. " That is really weird cause I have almost no issues, they are more capable with 3 like I have now but it means there's a spot where it might be a little bit weird sometimes. But that depends on where you put them. Quest tracking is by default inferior because it's inside out tracking, not acceptable as a main device.
Setup? You do it once, there's nothing else you have to do. Quest 2 has too many drawbacks. Even the screen is worse in some way, I forgot which. Battery puts a limit on it and it's heavier too. Would use a cable which also has problems. It's only good as a second HMD and for taking it outside your home.
@@Nekotaku_TV I constantly had to recalibrate it. Had to move the sensors to facing a different direction. It wasn't something I had to do only once. It was such a pain in the ass. So much of a pain that I didn't really want to use it. The Quest 2 tracking works fine. I played half life alyx on both and I haven't really noticed any issues with the tracking at all. It works perfectly fine. Only issue with tracking I have ever had is when you put controller to close to the face. That's about it. Other than that the tracking actually works very well. Not to mention you don't need a set dedicated VR room. You can move it anytime you want. That's nice feature. The screen is good.
The resolution is much higher than the CV1. Games look way more clear. Not to mention the 120fps. Paired with my 3080 gaming PC it works wonders. CV1 always looked blurry no matter what. On a 1060 or 1080ti.
Honestly Quest 2 doesn't feel heavier and actually feels more comfortable with a 3rd party head strap (Halo style) I bought for $20.
And air link/Virtual Desktop is really game changing. I have a link cable but don't really use it that often at all. Most of the time I just use air link. I set bitrate to 175 and it looks the same to me. Not having that wire connected directly to the computer makes a big difference. You don't even have to play next to your PC. You can play in a different room depending how good your router is. It really does feel next level. Overall I suggest you give it a try. I never wanna go back to CV1.
And the stand alone feature like you said works really well when taking it over to a friends place. I use it a lot for multiplayer. ContractorsVr/Onward/Population one is really fun doing a good ole fashion lan party. Also the stand alone is so easy to pick up and play. Soemtimes I dont wanna turn on my computer. I can play a quick round of ContractorsVr.
Always learning from you, and thanks for the amazing content, More Power to You,
Hmm, a very interesting problem in competetive VR games is that people have different body size. There would basically be two ways to solve it: Either measure the height of the player at game start and scale the game world around them, so everyones game avatar looks the same (but taller people experience a little larger game world) - or embracing the idea that people are different so body size is a natural advantage/disadvantage one can have (just like in real world sports) and make the level playable for people of all sizes. I am really not sure what the best solution is.
I am nearly 2 meters tall and in Pavlov people sometimes comment "how are you so big" (which I find pretty funny, that people just dont think someone could be this tall IRL). Disadvantage: Im just a big target thats easy to hit. Advantage: I can peak and shoot over covers that are too high for others which sometimes gets people by surprise.
Well the easiest way to solve this is to simply implement both ways into the game and have the game hoster choose how to play.
VR is something I want to see growing, I want to see it succeed like other ways to plays video games.
This has so much potential !
Thanks to wake up everyone about the incredible technology we have in our head.
Make VR a commun knowledge!
I love that y'all interviewed the people behind VailVR, I've been following them for a bit now and I'm really excited to see VR eSports become a reality. I hope it gets to bridge the gap between traditional irl sports and eSports
I also feel like if vr esports really takes off this could be motivation for better and better headsets since that could give a competitive advantage, if the headsets weren't standardized
I don't know how you do it man, but all of your videos are so inspiring! Like this made me want to make something
I think the harshest critics about the immersion of a VR game are those who just arrived at the scene. People like me who play over 30 years and saw the first games on screen (like pong) can appreciate much more what is happening in the VR scene. I'm already happy if I can play a game like Fallout VR and I don't need the mods to be happy with the game. Of course I like the immersion, but to me I don't want too much realism in a game. I don't need to have to reload a gun every time with my hands... or hold a rifle with two hands... I don't care if I see the controller sometimes.... the actual game is important to me... the puzzles to be solved etc...
But I do have to say that it was a great video and I learned again something. Respect for the developers! Great people.
As a guy leading a team of 3 in developing a physics based VR game, I can safely say that I feel like we, and other VR dev's, are developing not just new games, but new game theories.
Bruh it's not even that its more like I never limit myself to that others say are possible so there is no "bad habit" to break. If you don't go into VR looking to pioneer gaming then you're in the wrong business. Don't think what would playing the game be like, think what would being in this "world" be like, but that's hard to unlearn the way we set up all our education and such
love your videos keep up the great work
Very illuminating video! This is my absolute number one problem with VR right now - but since it's so hard to make vr games, it's very important right now that AAA studios make more games since smaller teams lack the resources to make anything even worth playing - I remember the days when I used to play almost every day -
this has given me the inspiration to start, ive been wanting to make a game for so long and i didnt know what to do but this video has guided me so thank you for that😄
Vail truly is the game of the future. Even after countless hours of playing it and talking to the devs about it, I still have yet to figure out what makes it feel so awesome. There’s no way to describe how Vail feels, not even the devs are able to describe the feeling that makes it so special.
The passion and drive these guys have to make an amazing VR game reminds me of the videos that stress level zero did about boneworks. I feel as though Vail will become a great game that people will definitely play a lot and will have a solid community like all other successful games.
Dude. Your storytelling is stellar. You are… my muse. Thank you.
I did a little bit of it for funzies and just having to have the headset plugged in and every time I wanted to test it I had to get up just to find out that the thing I made didnt work and having to do that over and over again a million times is really hard. I cant even imagine having to deal with multi player and all of the complexities that come with that for vr, just doing it on a flat screen was really hard for me! anyway, this was a great video that puts into perspective how hard games are to make for the community.
Honestly for me, the biggest problem in the VR space is the children and drinking. Mixing 9 year old squeakers in worlds where people are drunk all the time isn’t a good mix.
Heck even the kids or the drinking on their own are their very own problem, let alone together.
Anyways, good video as always, keep it up!
Yeah this is totally understandable as well
Parents need to stop letting their preteens and under on the headsets and letting it parent for them. Problem solved.
I quit VR Chat a looong time ago because of the horrible (and niche) community. I assume that's what you're talking about.
VRC is fundamentally a space where 99% of people are severely disordered, they all have roughly the same couple of obsessions, etc. If you're like me and hate anime and furry stuff (and being around drunk people...), you'll virtually never fit in. It's crazy in a way, because you'd expect a wide open, free social space to be more... diverse, and represent more of the actual population. But there's no diversity to a place where everyone is awkward and unapproachable and wants to be an anime girl or a furry. Everyone like me comes in, tries it out, instantly gets turned off and leaves. I'm a bit more hard-headed and ambitious so I spent MONTHS trying to get into it.
I just wanted to find someone or some group I could get along with or had anything in common with. I gave up frustrated and annoyed early this year. If you're not a weirdo with a fandom obsession, after spending enough time in VRC you'll start to actually feel depressed from feeling like an outcast. I found myself actually getting angry, irritable, and sad in a regular cycle. I'd stand around in worlds by myself just watching others interacting and make myself feel worse.
Might have been the worst social experience of my entire life. I hate leaving the house, but I'd almost rather do that.
@@SkeleTonHammer furries and weebs truly are the product of too much internet and access to a game like VRC
@@SkeleTonHammer Gonna be honest here, i’m going to have to disagree.
Personally, i’ve never liked anime or have been into the furry communities etc, just like you, but over the past year or so many more people have started to come in and play around with the game!
Yeah, there are the people you’re talking about, but many more people are starting to come in too! Many of them are super nice and welcoming. The atmosphere of the game is changing and i think it is for the better
Maybe give it another shot? Another attempt with an open mind, like a fresh start, because it is a completely different game than it was a year and a half ago in my opinion. Hey, even we could hang out if it comes down to it :)
I really appreciate developers like this. They are really working on "the dream". But honestly the more traditional a game is in VR the worse my experience has been. The best games I've played have all been about the unique VR experience and not just "make popular game but VR"
love this video , developed a few VR prototypes from scratch , ngl its really really hard , especially when building interactions from scratch
Excellent video! AEXLAB for the win! I sincerely appreciate their hardwork and dedication. They are all a lovely bunch, and I can't wait to see where this title goes. That said, I appreciate what you're doing for the community as well Thrill. I learn a lot and even when I don't I walk away with a different perspective than I had previously which is awesome in my book. Keep up the awesome work guys! 👊🍺
Great Video!!! I think games like Vail will help grow VR, they are defiantly the next generation of what a good VR game should look like.
Embarrassed to admit this, but today I learned what an "Indie developer" actually is. I legit assumed it was just small developers from India..
0:51 absolutely love this part
My biggest problem is that most devs never played a VR game. Payday2 has the worst controls ever, you releoad with the grab button for (for example) or in Bloodtrail, you can't pick up guns because your crack pipe is in the way and he rather has a smokey, instead to survive. Let's not start to talk about Bethesda VR games or Rockstar's L.A. Noire.
Payday 2 had so much potential as a VR game
@@naurorasen8063 true, it makes so much fun, but the controlls are big bummer... :/
Here's a fundamental problem with not only your premise, but the entire way of thinking that you have, and by extension: many VR developers. Not every VR game needs to be first person!!! That's a huge mistake of VR game development. It doesn't all have to be a simulator. Games like Trover, Moss, and Ven show that you don't NEED to be the character in VR: that actually, you can BE the camera!!! Also, games like Pistol-Whip show that you can absolutely have a traditional cut-scene, just do it movie theater style. Games like Catan show that people love VR board games. And imagine the potential of doing realistic sports training in VR. Like if I had to say the number 1 mistake of VR game development, it's really that everybody limits how they think of VR as just being a first-person simulator environment. Imagine taking super mario 64, but modifying it so you are the camera and then transported into Peach's castle, still controlling mario, but you are there(!!!) as the camera. Games like Vox Machinae also show that you can be in a sim-like environment where you're piloting a vehicle, but only the controls in the cockpit are manipulatable by you. There's a lot of ways to work with this, but the way most people think about VR, is they're like, "Okay, I have a traditional game character, but now, in VR it needs to be first-person only in VR." No, it doesn't. In fact there's no reason that TONS of existing already developed titles couldn't be ported to VR with some modification, if you were "there" as the camera not as the character. Even lots of cut scenes in older games like Bloodrayne use the same character models and sets that you are playing in. Those could be re-rendered to where you're in the camera position and instead of having a "window" you just render the entire set.
You *don't* actually have to throw out all the old rules, people just *think* they do, and that limits their development. Games like Moss, Ven, and Trover show that no, you don't need to make everything interactive, that no, you don't need to be first person, and that no, VR games don't need to be a simulator. People just need to think outside of the box more. Also the VR anime visual novels are awesome! There's a lot that can be done with VR just people need to stop limiting themselves. I would love to play Sky, Children of the light in VR as the camera controlling the character.
Really cool video! I'm actually planning on working on a VR game in the future. It's a survival horror game.
The best example for having to have everything be interactable is a game i played where you can chop down trees, but only specific trees can be chopped down, while there are a lot of other ones that are just static and can't be interacted with. You immediately ask yourself, why you can't just gather wood by cutting those down instead.
It will take time and patience, but with the world going the way it is...our time may be running out for things such as vr, we must experience it as much as possible before it is too late
Vail seems amazing from what I've played and can't wait to see where it goes. I'm proud of these devs really pushing through these challenges of creating a multiplayer vr game that feels this good already ^-^
What separates it from contractors if you played that?
nice vid thrill! keep up the good work.
Love the editing in this video, especially the text!
Seems like a fantastic time to get into VR game development. I might as well start learning now that it's not too late :)
By the way, outro music is poggers
you first need to grow up lol
I think very many VR Game Devs make one fundamental mistake: A game should be a good game first and should then become great through VR.
Of course, there are games that wouldn't work without VR at all, but think about all great VR games. Half Life Alyx would be good even if it was developed for flat screen. VR makes it great. Beat Saber would be a solid rythm game if developed for flat screen, but becomes mesmerizing through VR.
Here's where the problem is: A lot of VR games lean on VR to be a crutch instead of being a column together with visuals, story and gameplay. A lot of VR games would be utterly terrible without VR simply because VR is literally the only thing those games have going for them. Their world becomes visually deep but their gameplay is as flat as the screen they were meant to escape. And, at least for me, those games become stale VERY fast. Beyond the initial "wow", there's just nothing there.
Gorilla tag would suck as flatscreen though? Good game still
You are 100% wrong and that's how you get things like hit man vr. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't "port" to VR, you think "how will this work in VR" hence why ports don't do as well as made for VR games
@@lightswitch2622 it's cuz he don't know what he's talking about
Wow! Very well written, thank you for that. You describe exactly how i feel about VR gaming ATM. A good game needs a story to follow, a world to explore, and interesting characters to interact with. Then VR brings you "inside" the game and raises the immersion even more.
That's the reason why we need more VR ports from the big studios - if possible for every new big game releasing these days. Like Guardians Of The Galaxy, Resident Evil Village, God Of War etc. Imagine how much more people will be drawn into VR that way!
@@FukUrToS I don't think the argument was for VR ports, but rather building a game that's a good GAME first and foremost, and then using VR to expand the scope of possibilities for that game.
It could be compared to graphics back when game graphics were still working their way toward being photorealistic and immersive - a lot of games would come out looking absolutely amazing, because the dev team focused a lot of effort on maximizing the graphics tech of the time, but the actual gameplay wasn't very good. A better way would have been to work on developing a game with the strongest gameplay and/or story possible, and then move on to seeing how you can elevate that with great visuals.
The OP was making a similar argument about VR: focus on strong gameplay, strong story (if applicable), replayability, scalability, etc., and then find ways VR can enhance or elevate those core aspects. That doesn't mean just developing a standard flatscreen game and then porting it to VR, but it does mean focusing on core game fundamentals first, and then finding the ways VR can take it to the next level. Many VR developers seem to get that backwards: focus on the cool new things VR can do, and then tack on gameplay and a story afterward. That rarely results in a really good game.
Loved it. Dope vid Thrill
As someone working their way to become a game developer right now, I always love to see how passionate the few developers that VR has are.
People like Master Indie, Studios like Stress Level Zero or Aexlab, I have massive respect for them and it's a great source of inspiration.
I plan to stick to developing flat screen games right now, but if I ever start my journey into VR projects those are the people I'll be looking at to learn about the differences in development.
Notification squad where you at.
Thanks fam
No problem
Here
Right here
E
Hopefully people find an easier way to make games
I'd think another problem are spacial constraints.
I live in a pretty small apartment and really don't have enough space to play with.
So excited for Vail! Dev team & community are amazing 🙌🏼🔥
You can really feel the energy and creativity in this game. The devs are making decisions for the long run, not because they are easy in the short term. And it really pays off.
Does VR always have to be 1st person?
I would love the ability to play some of my favourite games like monster hunter or Bloodborne in 3rd person but with a 360 camera ? If you get me
Might be vomit inducing now I am thinking about it haha
There are plenty of 3rd person vr games.
My personal favorite vr game astro bot resque mission is 3rd person
I enjoy Spacefolk City and it's 3rd person
Dude, excellent video. This is what it feels like to be an 'early adopter' of technology like this. I had a 3d headset for movies 15 years ago. It wasn't ready. I almost got the N3D, but it wasn't ready. I second I saw the Rift, I knew it was time. It really is AMAZING that we have as many quality titles as we have already. Whenever people put on my Rift S pc headset for the first time, they are amazed and awed. That's all I need to see. The experience is unmatched. Now it's just time for the market (both c and b side) to catch up - BUT this time they will. Ride the wave!!!
Every time I think about vr development, my mind is flooded with so many innovations and hardware. We have so much progress we can make, and im looking forward to every step of the journey.
VR games are incredibly easy and intuitive for the most part. If you struggle to play VR games you struggle to have any brain cells active during a normal day
9:55 idk man, Contractors is about the best I could possibly think of at the moment and it looks (in my opinion), 10x better than whatever gameplay you've shown from your game. I play Contractors daily, it's a full game with more content than most AAA shooters. 20+ maps with day/night, 50+ weapons + attachments, ballistic accurate modeled projectiles, custom calibration for ANY weapon using a gunstock, cross-platform with PCVR and Quest and I believe a team that is smaller than your 50+ member studio. It's not all about money, it's about passion and actually having developers who know what they are doing. From what I saw, your game looks oddly generic, something like Pavlov in it's beta 2 or 3 years ago. I don't believe you're the only team in the world who is setting the standards, there are clearly other teams with experience in making VR titles as well.
Like you said VR development is an interesting and new frontier of gaming. Not just making a game, but an experiance.
I love how the tools we use to develop these games are shifting and evolving to meet the new demands of the industry. So that tomorrows developers have the tools they need to push their content even further.
Wonderful vid, keep it up!
I bought my Quest for the sole intent to use it for my sim racing rig. Was surprised with how fun the games were, then when right back to sim racing and nothings changed since. it's nice when a friend picks one up for the first time, gives me more incentive to go back and play some of the games I used to have fun on, but for the most part we ALL just go back into racing with VR with the occasional run of zombies on Pavlov or some Dogefighting in VTOL VR. Walkaround Mini golf is a blast if you down a couple beers with the boys as well.
Without even watching the problem is children in vr. That’s my biggest problem really. The insistent screaming in you face and asking how to play a game mid game
Even in paid games
*Inhales... Screams back at child.* OH MY GOD PLAY THE TUTORIAL YOU FUCKING BRAT.
That’s not a problem unique to vr. That’s just children. You want an experience with no voip and or age gated.
Have you ever heard of a mute button? that makes kids a complete non-issue.
@@thecultofcaged ever hear of kids under 13 not technically being allowed to play for health reasons yet parents let them anyway?
Nobody is going to see this comment so I'll say it... My lil soldier is small
Wtf does that mean
Ok
ayo-
We know
What the hell
one of the biggest difficulties is every time you change something you need to stop what your doing and put on a headset to test it
I think the fact that the formulas don't work is what draws me to VR games. I am in my 30s now and have been gaming for longer than I care to admit. It's to the point that when I play a new game I know exactly how the gameplay loop is going to be within 30 minutes, flat screen games seem to be just constant replicas of what has already proven to work. This is different from VR. I have a ton of VR games and most of them play completely differently from one another. A
I dont agree with you