If you are going to go electronic crossover. Why stop at the sub/ main? Bypass the main speaker's passive crossover and multi-amp as needed based on number of drivers.
I think the main reason is by comparison integration of a subwoofer to an already "good" pair of speakers is exponentially easier than calculating the timing and correctly phasing HF and mid drivers to roll-off together. Bass is easier due to the physical wavelength. Without going into it too deeply.
I dont understand how the brands seem to encourage bi/tri/quad amping, yet theres such little gear out there to do it properly in the home. Its mainly vintage home stuff and pro gear I see. There are however very attractive active X-over kits Papa Pass sells on his DIY store for some time now, that appears to be the best compromise from what I see.
@@OCDHIFiGuy No problem. They generally had a jumper between the left right connectors that were labeled pre-out and power in. Very popular with NAD integrated amps. The Marantz model 30 has it as well. It might just be more of a mid-fi thing.
So just to add to an excellent video, limiting the lower frequency of your mains is the BIG advantage of using a proper crossover. The lower the frequency a speaker needs to reproduce the more the cone has to move, asking your mains to cover bass frequencies means you have that cone flapping in the wind. You want come movement limited for two main reasons, the first being intermodulated distortion and the second is limiting Xmax. Coming from a home theater background I was shocked to find how hifi folks add a subwoofer to their systems, made no sense to me until I tried to figure out how to do it on my system and no such product really existed (going to buy a minidsp as a preamp just to add a subwoofer)
Great, informative video. Do you sell the Marchand crossovers also? I remember you showing a fully-balanced, custom-built ME active crossover a couple years back.
@@OCDHIFiGuyHi Mikey, it would appear I'm shit out of luck because I'm using an integrated amp so besides adding a pre amp are there any of devices or crossovers I can use with my existing integrated amp to add a sub 🙏
passive crossover is like using just a fork to eat both a soup and to cut beef steak. when you could use spoon and sharp knife. but hey, fork is more simple!
Good topic Mikey. Here is my question, could you theoretically, come out of your preamp balanced, into XLR subs and with some of the newer subs, they have an app that allows you to control the cross over frequency, volume, parametric via Bluetooth for instant results from your couch, until you dial it in? What are your thoughts? I know SVS does this.
A properly tuned high pass sub is playing below the speakers frequency and shouldn’t cause cancellation. It just takes over at the point the speakers can’t
Finding an active crossover that doesn’t degrade the sound of its additional stage is difficult. Most subwoofers only use a capacitor that doesn’t roll off the bass at an adequate slope or a cheaper active crossover that degrades the sound. Our present options are limited.
I just purchased this and it's on its way. My question is can or is it not usable I plan to use it to cross over a pair of active speakers and 1 subwoofer.
Mikey the Sublime crossover uses 2nd and 4th order filters which mess up the phase. Use a first order crossover to keep all your drivers phase correct.Your gear sounds like it has time and phase anomalies using dipoles and 2nd 4th order crossovers. Be cool.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Hi Mikey Opinions are like assholes, we all have one. In my opinion panel dipole speakers sound phasey, 901 reasons why. Panel speakers have very light diaphragms that continue to move after the signal stops, giving you that spacey sound. This is a proven fact, just look at a waterfall plot of any panel or electrostat. But thats ok if you like it, thats all that matters. I don't. Be cool.
Ah, don't get mad now, but you kinda remind me of an old Kim Basinger Breck Shampoo ad in this vid I'm a bit jealous have none now, ( hair of course!) but that's a lotta work!
@OCDHIFiGuy I can do it wirh my Accuphase E408 Integrated Amp as the Pre and Power sections can function separately. I use the Accu E408 as my preamp and its ouput goes to an Accuphase 4-way Active crossover. The crossover's Low outputs go to the subs, the Mids go back to the Accu E408 power amp input, the Highs go to another accuphase power amp and the super highs go another accuphase power amp. Yes, I use Magnepan 1.7i in fully active configuration and sounds sublime.
Hey Mr Mike really appreciate how u are bringing lot of better products like ( TAD ) as a dealer this video of yours comes at perfect time I am DIY an OB with a Bass and full range for high Fred’s will e bi - amping them with active crossover fro market ( Dbx / Behringer) and will tinkering with active crossover once installing the set up 😊
Greatly appreciate this overview and explanation of crossover application. I have been a proponent of utilizing electronic x overs for years, because it always seemed to take a load of the amps running the main speakers and of course the main speakers themselves. The sound always came across more relaxed and effortless IMHO!! Concerning integrated amplifiers, there is one situation they can still be used with electronic x overs, if that unit does have pre amp out and amp in feature which is mostly non existent these days but was quite common in older vintage integrated amplifiers. Anyhow I’ve been wondering where I could find a good quality electronic crossover these days for home Hi Fi because too often I’ve resorted to using car electronics crossovers granted I had some pretty high quality ones for mobile audio I don’t want to have run 12 volt power supply boxes. So thank you for sharing and doing the breakdown
Remember why REL was successful and brought subwoofery into the HIFI universe in the late 90's as opposed to home-cinema people like Miller and Kreisel, they made using a sub easy, not sending newbies off into pro-rig territories. For starters, use the hi-level speaker connections.
Mr ethical hifi guy. For a long term i have heard of the us brand, Odyssey and my brand offered me his odyssey audio stratos + for £395 which is at least in the uk cheap for such a thing but what is your opinion if any of the brand and their design as my guess it is a old design as in they have not created anything new but i just wondered that aside are they any good for £395. Sorry to ask but I'm tempted but no idea about their quality. I have just seen them online for sometime and saw them a few times on avreports channel. Thankyou Mr Ethical
@@OCDHIFiGuy Sublime and dbx- THANK YOU! Bass management is not emphasized as much as it should be. I was ready to yank my Nakamichi EC-200 from my trunk until I realized the RCA connections wouldn't integrate into an XLR signal path. Besides, integrating car audio into a home Chi-Fi system would prolly create more issues... Thanks again!
I have an SPL Crossover and now have seen this and will be contacting them for one of my other systems.
If you cross the sub low enough and with the right slope it can work out very well.
Correct !
If you are going to go electronic crossover. Why stop at the sub/ main? Bypass the main speaker's passive crossover and multi-amp as needed based on number of drivers.
FAR more complicated that way...
I think the main reason is by comparison integration of a subwoofer to an already "good" pair of speakers is exponentially easier than calculating the timing and correctly phasing HF and mid drivers to roll-off together. Bass is easier due to the physical wavelength.
Without going into it too deeply.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Increased complications is the MO/ SOP of HiFi. Ever since the electric motor replaced the windup on the Victrola!
that is really what we should be striving for.
@@Coneman3 exactly
I dont understand how the brands seem to encourage bi/tri/quad amping, yet theres such little gear out there to do it properly in the home. Its mainly vintage home stuff and pro gear I see. There are however very attractive active X-over kits Papa Pass sells on his DIY store for some time now, that appears to be the best compromise from what I see.
Thanks brother for clarifying...👍
Always welcome
There are some integrated amps with pre-out power amp in loops that could do the job.
Please explain in detail. I dont see how.
@@OCDHIFiGuy No problem. They generally had a jumper between the left right connectors that were labeled pre-out and power in. Very popular with NAD integrated amps. The Marantz model 30 has it as well. It might just be more of a mid-fi thing.
So just to add to an excellent video, limiting the lower frequency of your mains is the BIG advantage of using a proper crossover. The lower the frequency a speaker needs to reproduce the more the cone has to move, asking your mains to cover bass frequencies means you have that cone flapping in the wind. You want come movement limited for two main reasons, the first being intermodulated distortion and the second is limiting Xmax.
Coming from a home theater background I was shocked to find how hifi folks add a subwoofer to their systems, made no sense to me until I tried to figure out how to do it on my system and no such product really existed (going to buy a minidsp as a preamp just to add a subwoofer)
The product is called Sublime Acoustic K231
Great, informative video. Do you sell the Marchand crossovers also? I remember you showing a fully-balanced, custom-built ME active crossover a couple years back.
Thanks Mickey👍
No problem 👍
@@OCDHIFiGuyHi Mikey, it would appear I'm shit out of luck because I'm using an integrated amp so besides adding a pre amp are there any of devices or crossovers I can use with my existing integrated amp to add a sub 🙏
Passive crossovers are not only expensive , you have no control whatsoever on your speakers. Always go active , even with dbx or Rane.
Unless you want simple and easy...
passive crossover is like using just a fork to eat both a soup and to cut beef steak. when you could use spoon and sharp knife. but hey, fork is more simple!
Good topic Mikey. Here is my question, could you theoretically, come out of your preamp balanced, into XLR subs and with some of the newer subs, they have an app that allows you to control the cross over frequency, volume, parametric via Bluetooth for instant results from your couch, until you dial it in? What are your thoughts? I know SVS does this.
Actually nowadays you can make volume control with your streaming software too. Many times over your phone as a remote.
Talk about latency issues... ever tried it ??
@@OCDHIFiGuy its not horrific in my view.
A properly tuned high pass sub is playing below the speakers frequency and shouldn’t cause cancellation. It just takes over at the point the speakers can’t
Uhhhh. You don't high pass a sub..
Sorry I meant low pass
Cricky. Shows how much i know. I didn't know that you can add a pre amp to an integrated amp.
Sure you can. It's not ideal, but it will work fine
@OCDHIFiGuy cool. Will add one to integrated for the future of a power amp.
Cheers.
This is another reason why all integrateds should have "Main-In"s. There's no excuse not to.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
HELLO !! Thank you , Agreed.... Would tape loop work somehow ??
@@OCDHIFiGuy
. Lol, what? Who is this?............ and what have you done with Mikey?
i really should add a 500 dollar device to my 700k audio rig? best recommendation? seriously!
$700K buyers consult me... LOL. I have a $15K bespoke crossover for you..
You lost me at intergrated amp. lol
Yeah, unless you add a preamp.
Yeh. I live in a condo so an integrated comes in handy. I do have two rel subs so tuning by ear is the way.
@@Chiroboy63you may use an Accuphase E series Integrated which has a separate Pre and Power amp sections
Thanks for the recommendation. I had a pair of Accuphase A200 mono s. I like there sound. Right now I’m using a Dagostino momentum.
this is an issue I think is one of the most misunderstood in hi-fi, and you nailed it.
Finding an active crossover that doesn’t degrade the sound of its additional stage is difficult. Most subwoofers only use a capacitor that doesn’t roll off the bass at an adequate slope or a cheaper active crossover that degrades the sound. Our present options are limited.
Inductor coil not cap.
Have a pair of Acoustic Energy spkrs and Sunfire sub.
Please advise
Listen to music 🎶
I just received my K-231 for use with active PMCs and dual subs.
Sweet !!
I just purchased this and it's on its way. My question is can or is it not usable I plan to use it to cross over a pair of active speakers and 1 subwoofer.
Have fun !!
Loving my Sublime Acoustic K231, so easy to get it to work with different types of speakers.
Great to hear!
When you order the card to slot in, does it have a slope 12/24db set?
Not many analog crossovers on the market that are less than $1k. JL Audio CR-1 is nice, but $3k+ ! Not bad if you spent $50k. Mine is $19k.
@@BrianGarside when you order the cards you specify both frequency and slop.
@@BrianGarsideyou specify the slopes and frequency at time of order
Mikey the Sublime crossover uses 2nd and 4th order filters which mess up the phase. Use a first order crossover to keep all your drivers phase correct.Your gear sounds like it has time and phase anomalies using dipoles and 2nd 4th order crossovers. Be cool.
Come listen and say that... LOL, its in your mind. PS. My crossover is not a sublime...
@@OCDHIFiGuy Hi Mikey Opinions are like assholes, we all have one. In my opinion panel dipole speakers sound phasey, 901 reasons why. Panel speakers have very light diaphragms that continue to move after the signal stops, giving you that spacey sound. This is a proven fact, just look at a waterfall plot of any panel or electrostat. But thats ok if you like it, thats all that matters. I don't. Be cool.
Ah, don't get mad now, but you kinda remind me of an old Kim Basinger Breck Shampoo ad in this vid I'm a bit jealous have none now, ( hair of course!) but that's a lotta work!
OKie Dokie..
She's from down that way, I'm pretty sure
@OCDHIFiGuy I can do it wirh my Accuphase E408 Integrated Amp as the Pre and Power sections can function separately. I use the Accu E408 as my preamp and its ouput goes to an Accuphase 4-way Active crossover. The crossover's Low outputs go to the subs, the Mids go back to the Accu E408 power amp input, the Highs go to another accuphase power amp and the super highs go another accuphase power amp. Yes, I use Magnepan 1.7i in fully active configuration and sounds sublime.
First Sucker, Subscribed, Thumbed up!
That's what she said.
LOL
Spent $10k on sub setup
2-Rel Carbon Specials
JLA cr-1 active crossover
Shunyata Python xlr's 2.5m
W4S 10th DAC2V2SE
20.7s, Coda v3 800w@4ohms
You need a better DAC... Its your bottleneck.. ;-)
Hi Mikey
I do not have a sub, however I always thought if I did I would get two subs one for each channel hence stereo. Any thoughts?
Take Care
Bill
Highly recommended to go with two subs and set them to stereo not mono That's the setup I have and soooo satisfied
Hey Mr Mike really appreciate how u are bringing lot of better products like ( TAD ) as a dealer this video of yours comes at perfect time I am DIY an OB with a Bass and full range for high Fred’s will e bi - amping them with active crossover fro market ( Dbx / Behringer) and will tinkering with active crossover once installing the set up 😊
Thanks and have fun !!
Absolutely! My Bryston 10B-Sub Crossover & dual Rythmik E-15’s agree with you wholeheartedly.
There u go !
Active is another level. I use a Marchand tubed xover
Cool, I've got one as well but don't use it.
Greatly appreciate this overview and explanation of crossover application. I have been a proponent of utilizing electronic x overs for years, because it always seemed to take a load of the amps running the main speakers and of course the main speakers themselves. The sound always came across more relaxed and effortless IMHO!! Concerning integrated amplifiers, there is one situation they can still be used with electronic x overs, if that unit does have pre amp out and amp in feature which is mostly non existent these days but was quite common in older vintage integrated amplifiers. Anyhow I’ve been wondering where I could find a good quality electronic crossover these days for home Hi Fi because too often I’ve resorted to using car electronics crossovers granted I had some pretty high quality ones for mobile audio I don’t want to have run 12 volt power supply boxes. So thank you for sharing and doing the breakdown
Yes, you can also use a DAC with volume control to use an active crossover with an integrated and plate amp subs. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy ahh ok that’s good to know
Remember why REL was successful and brought subwoofery into the HIFI universe in the late 90's as opposed to home-cinema people like Miller and Kreisel, they made using a sub easy, not sending newbies off into pro-rig territories. For starters, use the hi-level speaker connections.
EXACTLY... great marketing and great way to raise sales numbers !! Half ass implementation IMHO...
@@OCDHIFiGuy Using proprietary EQ (ABC) to drive the system below box resonance (fs) was not marketing BS.
Mr ethical hifi guy.
For a long term i have heard of the us brand, Odyssey and my brand offered me his odyssey audio stratos + for £395 which is at least in the uk cheap for such a thing but what is your opinion if any of the brand and their design as my guess it is a old design as in they have not created anything new but i just wondered that aside are they any good for £395. Sorry to ask but I'm tempted but no idea about their quality. I have just seen them online for sometime and saw them a few times on avreports channel.
Thankyou Mr Ethical
Mister Curious audio guy, Klaus makes great stuff, if this is the company you speak of..
Excellent video, Mikey! Clear and concise. I just call balls and strikes. 👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👊🏻
Boom!
@@OCDHIFiGuy Sublime and dbx- THANK YOU! Bass management is not emphasized as much as it should be. I was ready to yank my Nakamichi EC-200 from my trunk until I realized the RCA connections wouldn't integrate into an XLR signal path. Besides, integrating car audio into a home Chi-Fi system would prolly create more issues...
Thanks again!