Stone Tower, What All Finales Should Be - Dungeon Design In Zelda (Majora's Mask)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- The final dungeon in Majora's Mask happens to be my very favourite. What makes Stone Tower Temple so great? It's puzzles? It's mechanics? It's challenges? The answer is yes.
Special thanks to RMFH for providing the Majora’s Mask 3D footage of the boss fight!
0:00 - Intro
0:48 - Before The Dungeon
07:21 - Ikana Castle
10:55 - Dungeon Progression
19:57 - Dungeon Progression (Inverted)
24:27 - The Dungeon Boss
32:12 - Concluding Majora's Mask - เกม
10:25 Fun Fact, an easy way to disprove the old (and long defunct) Link is dead theory uses the fact Link's shell is the only one that doesn't have blank, dead eyes, and while the eyes are "lifeless" it shows Link's soul is complete, while the others are only fragments (It can be assumed that the part of the soul that contains a person's identity passes on while their powers are left behind in the form of the masks).
YES. This is my favourite too. I’m obsessed with the stone tower temple music and the song of healing moment in the little house before still makes me emotional 😪
There's a remix of the theme called Inverting the Tower Temple that fucking slaps. If you're a fan of the music and haven't heard it, I recommend you give it a listen.
the husks from the elegy of emptiness actually depict how the mask transformations passed away
darmani has his scar, true, but the deku boy and mikau don't have visible scars that I've seen.
@@dontworry4945 though Mikau's statue looks like a burial position especially with the white souless eyes
The music also has a great motif! When the Stone Tower is in its normal form, the main instrument is the Ocarina, with drums following as a base and a wood flute (AKA Deku Pipe) as a support instrument, the chant is in a major tone, and when the song ends, before looping back to the initial drums, the Ocarina gets its own solo, like saying "There's no other forms in this land. It's YOUR time, Link". Could be a foreshadowing of the Twinmold Battle, you can only beat Twinmold as a human, since it can only be damaged on the tail by the Fire and Ice Arrows (and I guess the Fierce Deity Beams too) and the sword/brawl from the Giant's Mask
However, when inverted, the drums keep being used as a base, but the main instrument becomes a String Instrument, wouldn't say its a guitar, but, it's obviously an alution to the Zora's Guitar, the wood flute keeps being the support instrument for the main melody, the chant becomes minor, since it's "the oposite", and the solo... it's not an ocarina, it's a Flute. The only character in this game that has been seen playing a Flute is Skull Kid, which could mean that now that the Tower has been inverted... you are desending to Majora's Domain, and losing control over the situation and yourself
The best Zelda track so far, there just isn't an objectively better song for a Zelda Game, this thing has foreshadowing, references, and is pretty good, a perfect Dungeon Theme.
Honestly having played Majora's mask on the n64 when it came out, i totally agree about the remake's intrusive changes. When i heared about the 3ds remake, i was excited to see the updated graphics for it so i could see just how the bosses and locals were intended to be seen. But the first moment i saw Odolwa lean forward to show that damn eye, any desire to own the game died in me. I've yet to play it myself, but every time i see clips of it on youtube, im reminded of why that is.
Though i will say, you very quickly helped me realize just how bad my last playthrough was, as i never completed a single fairy due to missing the invisible fairies in the dungeons xD
I love Stone Tower Temple. It's my favorite Majora's Mask dungeon. The upside down gimmick is used so well that some of the rooms you revisit feel brand new. There were moments playing this dungeon when I'd stop and say "Oh yeah! I remember this place".
fun fact: inverted stone tower, despite the multiple cutscenes within and outside the dungeon implying, is not actually upside down. its y-axis is merely inverted as the name implies.
you can tell by the entrance room: the "cage" is on the left in both versions of the dungeon. if it was truly upside down, it would be on the other side.
its definitely easier to program, yet they still went through the effort of having rooms within the dungeon that flip over.
definitely some weird contradictions in terms of lore and design.
Something else I really enjoyed about the Stone Tower Temple is that when it’s inverted the ocarina sound in the music sounds more like a flute. Which is the skull kids instrument of choice from OoT.
This dude is giving us full length video essays and I love it. So underrated.
Great video once again Burger! Loved watching all these dungeon design videos. They’re brimming with all sorts of stuff I’d either forgotten about or never knew in the first place. Looking forward to see what you’ve got to say about The Wind Waker 😊
I'm loving this content! Keep up the good work man!
I'm so glad I went back in your history to find these videos. These are great. I semi-recently replayed Ocarina, but haven't gotten to replaying Majora yet, and these videos are making me really look forward to it even more. Eventually.
I have to say, Stone Tower Temple is quite an epic dungeon as it really combines everything about the game. Rather than giving you another transformation mask for the dungeon, it has you use all of the ones you have already.
I also think that the change to the Twinmold boss fight in the 3DS remake made it feel more like a real boss fight than the original. I do agree it may take a while to beat the red Twinmold, but I think that adds to the fun.
Can't tell you how much I LOVE this series. Please do more!!
Love the music for this temple
Such a good song!!
@@CaptBurgerson sorry I missed the end of the premier. My connection died
@@ShepherdsCreek no worries! I’m glad you could make it as long as you did 😊
I just found out about your videos looking for inspiration on making a zelda-type dungeon. Ive basicly been binge-watching your dungeon breakdowns and hyrule tours, and i LOVE them! I hope you keep up with this and hopefully get noticed by the AlGoRiThM, because you deserve it! I also hope you continue down the 3d zelda games, because it would be so cool to see all the dungeons! I am your new biggest fan :) ❤️
Wow thanks for such a nice comment! Absolutely will be continuing. Wind Waker videos are already in the works. I hope you could find the inspiration you were looking for!! :)
Love this series man, watched them all multiple times 👍
24:21 "Now the skylight is some sort of portal. So, in we jump..."
Ad: "The game is officially over! But now you can go buy some Reese's!"
That's why I don't use an ad-blocker. Thanks for the informative video!
You illuminated the temples awesomeness just like the Light Arrows.
literally the only dungeon theme i was actually listening to as i played.
Wonderful final MM video Capt!!! I really enjoyed this series a lot (frog?) and I can't wait to see what you do with WW! :)
PS: You literally created a meme with that frog thing hahahaha!!
Frog?
Haha thanks Rin!
More frogs will return in WW
I loved the twist in the 3DS version where the giant's mask dropped after you dropped the first worm. Yep, you had to shot arrows at the first one and hit it. It was difficult, but also extremely fulfilling.
i have to disagree, becoming giant and doing the same attacks really adds nothing in terms of gameplay, its yields the same results as not being able to attack by not the having the right weapon
Majora's mask is my favorite Zelda game (totk does come pretty close tho) and Stone tower temple is my absolute favorite dungeon! Such an epic final challenge. Watching all this no idea how I managed to solve all this stuff as a kid xD. Playing randomizers lately I wish the base game had the dpad for transformation masks! One of the best inclusions when playing randomizers so genius. I do think I'm one of the few who really liked the remake as well despite some of its flaws but gotta say I'm noticing them much more after your video xD. Very well put together and I can't wait to watch some more and hope to help in the battle with that pesky algorithm.
Great video! You got my sub 👍
PS: "But it's purple" made me 😂😂
I’m super super late to this show, but better late than never! I just finished my billionth play through of MM and I love learning about the lore behind it. I’m definitely a new subscriber ☺️
Not sure if you know about the Project Restoration patch for the 3DS version but it fixes a lot of your issues, Zora swimming, making bosses more like the n64 version, making the Giant's mask actually good, etc. I just beat the game using the patch and I adored my time with it.
Ikana is honestly one of my favourite segments in 3D Zelda entirely. Stone Tower has such a great gimmick, and the music goes so hard. Pair that with the general spookiness and the legendary creepypasta spawned from the Elegy of Emptiness, and Stone Tower really does stand out as one of the best temples in the series.
Really enjoyed this series, short and sweet as it was. You really came into your own and it feels like you figured the format out perfectly. Looking forward to seeing how things advance in Wind Waker!
Thanks so much man! Can’t wait for the incoming comments 🫡🫡
Every so often I like to surf through TH-cam looking for Majora's Mask videos since it's one of my all time favorite games. I particularly like coming across videos that examine Ikana and Stone Tower. Glad I found this one today. I'm surprised I had forgotten how terrible Twinmold is on the 3ds remake. Must have blocked that little detail out of my memory.
This dungeon is truly a masterpiece. One of the top dungeons of all time of any game.
Before I get to my own thoughts on the actual dungeon itself, I just wanna say that Ikana Canyon is easily my favourite location in Termina for so many reasons. The scary atmosphere, the implied history between the Ikana Royal Family and the Garo, and the difficulty, just to name a few. The Ancient Castle of Ikana in particular is my favourite mini-dungeon of the series, and I don't think it will be topped anytime soon. Not only is the music one of the best tracks in the game (in my opinion), but Igos du Ikana himself is this game's equivalent of Dark Link. By that, I mean that he's easily the most challenging mini-boss in the game. Like Dark Link, I'm not sure if it was just my own skill level, but this guy was the toughest opponent I fought throughout the whole game, once again surpassing the final boss. It felt like an actual fight, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that the fights against Igos and Dark Link may have served as inspiration for some of the bosses in Dark Souls. Finally, Igos du Ikana has some of the best dialogue in the entire game, and I'm glad you included one of his quotes at the beginning of the video.
If the honour of being my absolute favourite dungeon in Majora's Mask doesn't belong to Woodfall Temple, then Stone Tower Temple wins that title, hands down. First of all, the comparisons to the Spirit Temple are rather obvious. They're the final traditional dungeons of their respective games, they share common themes of duality, opposition and inversion, they're both important to the origins of the games' main antagonists, either explicitly or implicitly, and they're both in a league of their own in terms of quality. However, as much as I adore the Spirit Temple, I feel that Stone Tower surpasses it in how brilliantly designed it is, which is honestly really impressive given how the Spirit Temple is such an excellent dungeon to begin with. Much like your video analysing the Spirit Temple, you've summed up pretty much everything I like about Stone Tower better than I ever could. The layout, the architecture, the puzzles and, of course, the inversion mechanic are not only peak Zelda dungeon design, but close to perfection in my eyes. The already labyrinthine dungeon being traversible both rightside up and upside down is just pure genius, especially for the time Majora's Mask was released.
_Oh, and that music._ Stone Tower Temple's music, both the normal and inverted variation, is probably one of the best dungeon themes in the entire franchise, and what makes it so good is that, unlike the majority of dungeon themes, it has a clear, established melody that can easily be followed. The tone that the song gives off is a little hard for me to describe, but if I had to try, it gives off this vibe that the Stone Tower is a mythical, unnatural structure that should never have been created, but nonetheless holds great importance to the history to the Ikana region. The absolute best part about the song is that it never once got grating to me! I spent 1.5 in-game days in this temple, and not once did the music start to annoy me. Rather, it encouraged me to keep going. To keep climbing the tower. To save everyone and everything in Termina.
Back to the temple itself, I really liked the fight against the Garo Master. Not only is his design badass, the fight against him is short but intense. Definitely one of my favourite mini-bosses in this game next to Igos du Ikana. This is another one of those fights that I feel played a small part in influencing the bosses of the Souls series for how fast paced it is. Lastly, the Garo Master's death and his preceding line of dialogue go so hard for a Zelda game and I love it.
"Die I shall, leaving no corpse. That is the way of the Garo."
Speaking of mini-bosses, I completely agree with your assessment of Gomess. It is so interesting and its design says so much about it. Gomess is clearly supposed to be Termina's equivalent of the Grim Reaper, and it's very likely the source of the curse that caused the dead to rise throughout Ikana. I like its possible symbolic purpose as well. The image of Link ascending this unholy tower and triumphing over Death itself has to have some deeper meaning, especially since this is Majora's Mask, a game full of symbolism. Like you though, I only wish Gomess had been a more difficult opponent, since its fight did not do it justice.
Now, at the end of this mind-bending temple, we arrive at the boss, Twinmold. While I don't think this fight is anything outstanding from a purely objective standpoint, I feel like it would be unfair to call it "underwhelming" when donning the Giant's Mask and tearing the two worms apart is just so much fun, not to mention really cool. In that regard, I suppose it's a little similar to Twinrova from the previous game. Both bosses are surprisingly easy for the point in the game at which you encounter them, but they're so unique and enjoyable that I can let it slide.
Sadly, I can't say the same for the 3DS version. I never made it this far in the remake when I played it, but if I had managed to get here, I'm sure I would've put the game down at this point. I've seen and heard enough horror stories about this fight to know that it's easily the worst part of the game, and arguably one of the worst bosses in the entire franchise. In hindsight, I'm kind of glad I gave up on the remake earlier so I wouldn't have to endure the slog that is this version's take on the Twinmold fight. It's such a shame too, since this battle could have been an improvement over the original boss fight. The first phase actually shows some promise, but they seriously dropped the ball during the second phase, so much so that the fight is made overall worse than the original. Having a boss fight drag on this long in a game with an ever-present time limit AND placing it at the end of what is probably the game's longest dungeon is bad design, full stop. It was bad enough the first time when they did it with Gyorg, but doing it a second time with Twinmold is just inexcusable.
Just to nitpick a little bit, I feel like making you acquire the Giant's Mask halfway through the battle really breaks the flow of the fight. Like, Link just stops fighting these giant sand worms to slowly open up a chest and do the obligatory "hold the item above his head and look amazed" thing. I normally don't have a problem with that, but in the middle of a boss fight, it just comes across as laughably awkward. Also, while the portal to Twinmold's arena certainly looks cooler in the remake, the actual arena looks significantly worse if you ask me. In the original, the fight took place in the middle of a sandstorm with a grey sky hanging above you. You could never see how far off into the distance the surrounding desert stretched, and the whole place just felt like a lonely, surreal landscape completely isolated from the preceding temple and the rest of Termina. In the remake however, you can clearly see the boundaries of the desert and, depending on what the in-game time of day is, you can fight Twinmold in broad daylight! Majora's Mask 3D certainly does look pretty at points, but this entire fight serves as a pretty big indicator to me of how the team at Grezzo misinterpreted some of this game's choices in its art direction. This complaint also applies to Ocarina of Time 3D as well, as my only real problem with that version is some occasional visual differences from the N64 original. /rant
On a final note, the one thing about this entire temple that stands out to me above all else is the implied lore and backstory surrounding it. I could write an entire essay about the origins of the Stone Tower Temple, its creators, the Giant's Mask and a whole lot more, taking inspiration from other peoples' theories and presenting some of my own suggestions. However, this comment is already far too long and I don't know if I'm well versed enough in Zelda lore yet to be able to tackle this subject in such great detail. Another comment here actually does something similar, so unless somebody else really wants to hear my interpretation of the history of the Stone Tower, I'll sign off here. I'll most likely write a follow-up comment with some final thoughts on Majora's Mask as a whole. For now though, thank you for reading.
Nice write up, but I really don’t think Twinmold is that bad in the 3DS version. I honestly think it’s a big improvement.
Second word of advice. At the bridge room at 19:38 get the fairy you mention, but also turn back into a zora and swim into the next room again. In that room there is a underwater sun. Swim to the top of the room and get on the catwalk. Turn back into young link and use ice arrows to create a pair of platforms to the right. From there you can shoot a light arrow down, through the water and hit the submerged sun.
You can then get this fairy that is revealed too without backtracking after the temple is flipped.
If you do this and what i say in my last comment, there is only 1 fairy you need to re-enter the temple for after beating the boss, which is the fairy that is in the chest you make appear to get to the boss room. Ie the one in the first room.
the perfect atmospheric song in a video game doesn’t exist..
Majora's Mask nr 1 game my mind was blown as a child! Best feeling in a game ever
I know that this video is very old, but I had recently watched the Bargainers colab theory video, and the piece of architecture in the temple foyer (@14:43) has Eye iconography. The Right eye is the switch, but the interesting part is that the carving's Left eye is gouged out, and if im reading it correctly, that room also has "Eye Gore" labeled next to it on the dungeon map you use in the video. I don't know if it actually influences anything, but I do find it interesting that the concept of Gore from a gouged out Left Eye being used so far back as Majora's Mask to be very cool.
Thanks!
The EyeGore is a strong enemy that appears in the dungeon, which is in the adjacent room to the foyer room with that piece of architecture
4:16 "Chilling. Just chilling."
That could apply to the song or Tingle's non-euclidean facial expression
Tingle is chilling. Just chilling.
Can’t say I agree with your take on the remake. I’ll get to twinmold in just a moment but i don’t think it’s that handholdy besides those stupid ice arrow changes. Otherwise the game still leaves a lot over to you to figure out. And while it’s a solution to a problem that shouldn’t have existed, chateau romani is actually available from the first night which does take the sting off the zora form. Deku link hopping is a chore but thankfully hopping is really rare in the game and the water is actually shallow enough in the southern swamp that you can actually roll through the water as a Goron which I thought was hilarious.
I don’t think you’re biased, as the 3DS remake is definitely very contentious among fans - but both versions do have their advantages over the other. I think the 3DS version is better overall as I feel it’s easy to take a lot of its advantages for granted, especially since some carry over from OOT3D. More item slots, better frame rate and fast item switching really do make the moment to moment gameplay much less tedious, and I can’t imagine not having gyro aiming anymore.
3DS twinmold is actually pretty fun if you know what you’re doing. I must stress, IF. It’s far from perfect but I find that it’s a very unique take on a Zelda boss with a second phase that relies on good positioning. The problem with the giants controls being overhauled is that they’re not used once anywhere else in the game so you don’t have a chance to really get acquainted with them and just have to improvise. Getting used to the controls on replays makes the fight a lot more tolerable and it’s very satisfying to roll in just the right spot and land a dozen hits on the bastard.
BTW, I didn’t know this originally but you can actually throw those massive boulders you see in the 3DS version which bring red twinmold down instantly. I think Nintendo probably expected players to use them at some point but they did a bad job at telling players that they were able to make use of them. Speaking of badly communicating mechanics to players, you can actually deal more damage when grabbing red twinmold by the tail by rotating your circle pad during the cutscene that plays out. This makes him go down in 3 slams instead of 4, by the way.
So yeah, the remake’s boss isn’t bad when you understand how the fight works but it very poorly telegraphs the expected way to fight twinmold. I appreciate the boss’s much needed difficulty bump though as the original just wasn’t worthy of following up the greatest Zelda dungeon imo. Red twinmold’s hit box seems to be bigger than it should be in the 3DS version too, and that’s really my biggest problem with it.
One more thing: while people hate the eyeballs and think they make no sense, I’ve heard that there is an interesting lore reason for their existence. Essentially, the bosses you fight have been cursed by majora and by destroying their eyeball (the root of the curse) you’re setting them free. It’s a great addition from a lore point of view, even if they don’t add much gameplay wise.
So I think you make some fair arguments, and I wouldn’t think less of anybody for enjoying the 3DS remake, but I do still have some thoughts on this.
The handholding is not just limited to ice arrows, although that bothers me a lot. For example, there are also changes and additions to Tatl’s dialogue that make her steer you more heavily in the right direction, especially in the early game. Some of these changes don’t bother me, some do.
Regarding the bosses, I think you sort of outline an issue even in your defence. How fun a mechanic can be is just as important as how the game teaches you. No matter how fun a mechanic is, if the game doesn’t teach it to you effectively, and therefor nobody knows how to use it, then it doesn’t matter.
But I acknowledge that there are changes that improve the overall experience and that for some this is going to be all around a better time.
However it just feels to me that too much of what made the original exceptional was downplayed, and the remake suffers too much for it for me.
@@CaptBurgerson I actually watched a video showing all changes between the remake and the original. It’s by greenalink and it’s over 3 hours long so obviously I didn’t see it all in one sitting but it’s something I like to reference every now and then, especially since I’m pretty interested in Majora’s mask at the minute. Tatl only has a few extra lines in the remake from what I remember, and one of them was after picking up the moon tear. The reason this was added was to let N64 veterans know that something was changed - as the moon tear was stored as ‘gear’ as opposed to an inventory item. Aside from that, I can’t really think of anything the remake did that felt handholdy. Rumoured events I feel were a positive change as there were literally no other way to find side quests without trial and error or looking up a guide, and they’re vague enough that they make figuring them out feel like an ‘a-ha’ moment that you wouldn’t get otherwise.
And it’s true that the game doing a poor job at demonstrating the intended boss strategy is a strike against it, however it still deserves credit for being a more technically engaging boss when it’s fought properly.
Haven't played the original N64 versions in years, but on my emulator I always have to adjust the settings to use the mirror shield properly and to use the longshot in the water temple top floor. Otherwise you just inch around like an idiot, or face backwards to make the light reflect off your back
In short, I'm in agreement with you that this is also my favourite Temple/Dungeon out of the whole Legend of Zelda Series and I 100% agree with all the cons you pointed out on here and the use of inventory slots instead of continuous pausing you mentioned in particular would have been a far better game design choice. Hopefully Nintendo will take this on board for future improvements.
The lead up to the final temple is also a masterpiece in itself. Ikana is probably the most mysterious, haunted place Nintendo has ever come up with in Zelda Games in my opinion and it has been subject to numerous theories, my favourite one being where it is suggested (possibly by Jesse?) that the mysterious tribe possibly created Majora's Mask in Stone Tower and that the upside down triforce symbols outside the main temple are perhaps considered a mockery of the three goddesses known in Hyrule? I have to come think that the game developers were very smart when it came to create atmosphere for this area as there seems to be a human psychological fascination with death and the supernatural in most cultures and it is totally realised in the design of this area. The music for this area is obviously haunting but what strikes me most about it, is how desolate it is and I noticed the use of detuned piano chords (effectively a kind of 'dead musical tuning') which really creates this feeling of being surrounded by death and decay.
The micro character interactions between the Poe Collector, Dampe, The Composer Bros, the various jump scares by the Garo, Stalchildren Soldiers in Ikana Graveyard, Captain Keeta, Pamela and her father and The King of Ikana and his argumentative soldiers on the way there is really mysterious, foreboding and abstract. The house that is a giant music box with a large phonograph being the most abstract thing in Ikana. The fact that a war is mentioned between the Kingdom of Ikana and The Garo is intriguing (perhaps a hint towards how unknown the details are of the Hyrule Civil War were before the events of Ocarina of Time in the previous game?) as you don't exactly know how the conflicted started.
The two main mini-dungeons were really cool, although the bottom of the well was tedious and perhaps things could have been designed in a better way to avoid so much backtracking and maybe more time spent on cool puzzle-rooms instead? The Mirror Shield was however a very welcome reward with a cool change of design. Ikana Castle was really cool in itself and I love the change of music in there as it sounds very majestic at first but then is has a darker more sinister haunting melody (you can hear what sounds like lamenting ghosts in the background) and the introduction and fight with the King of Ikana and his soldiers had a great sense of drama especially when those curtains go down and you are submerged in darkness and you feel your fate is doomed at that point (or at least I felt that way as a kid) until you are immersed in a fight. The Elegy of Emptiness is as 'empty' and 'lifeless' as it sounds and while I think the idea is cool to leave a hollow shell of yourself in order to keep a switch down it soon becomes a chore to use the song in order to progress towards the final dungeon and during the dungeon. Not sure why they made this game mechanic so mundane to use for one of the best areas and dungeons in the game?
The climb to Stone Tower Temple is indeed a formidable fortress filled with various ledges you have to ascend while avoiding falling boulders and using the song to progress tediously along with the hookshot, you eventually reach the top and the Temple itself looks really cool. I think the tower itself represents 'The Tower of Babel in Babylon (ancient civilisation on Earth), which I think is referenced in The Old Testament in various bibles' and this also seems similar to Ganon's Tower from OoT by its sheer height and design. What I love most about this temple is the music when you first walk in, it sounds very similar to 'The Fire Temple's Music' but it's a little different and I personally love the percussive drum beats which maintains the music's rhythmical flow. It's also very tribal sounding (links back to the thought of the mysterious tribe that the Happy Mask Salesman mentions near the beginning of the game) and the choir pitches make it sound ancient and it gets better when you invert the dungeon half-way through as the music imitates the actual inversion of the dungeon (very clever music game design as the player feels immersed in this sudden literal inversion of the dungeon without him/her realising it consciously.) The music effects in the inverted dungeon music are pretty wild and it sounds highly abstract to me. The layout of this dungeon is purposely made mind-boggling in the second-half which adds to the challenge and fun of solving puzzles using the 'up and down switches.' The dungeon tests all your transformational mask abilities as well as clever light mirror puzzles to progress. The use of three mini-bosses in one dungeon is pretty excessive but it makes sense as it is the final dungeon and two of them are highly original. The Garo Master's introduction with the maniacal laughter is particularly frightening as is his lightning speed and fiery swords, he dominated the otherwise spacious arena very well and imparts advice on where to use the light arrows similar to the spiel of the other Garo Soldiers. The other mini-boss 'Gomess' is obviously a reference to the 'Grim Reaper' but the use of all those black bats and scythe attacks are really cool. He could have been more challenging but it is what is it is at the end of the day.
Totally agree with the underuse of the 'Giant's Mask' but I can also understand how it could be a highly overpowered item too. The use of yet another transformational mask but only in specific areas (boss rooms) is a really cool feature and a totally unique 'extra' dungeon item from the usual traditional dungeon items most players are familiar with at this point in the series. I really liked the design for Twinmold too, however, given the area of Ikana I was expecting a more 'Bongo-Bongo' nightmare fuel type of boss so I always thought the boss fight was a bit random in context with the area but at the same time perhaps that could be said for Goht in Snowhead Temple? Would some sort of Ice Golem without those annoying totally obvious eyeball weak spots be a better choice of boss design? Maybe.
Great breakdown! I never got this far in the game so this is actually really my first seeing of this temple!
And YIKES, the 3DS boss fight changes are straight up offensive.
No they aren’t.
Now I want play Majora's mask again
I have watched all of GameMaker's Toolkit videos on the Zelda dungeons, but because each video condenses all dungeons of one game he sometimes just provides snippets of "this dungeon had one noteworthy moment and that's it". And most other TH-camr videos about Zelda dungeons are just "here are my favourite and least favourite Zelda dungeons, Water Temple bad".
Your video series is more what I'm looking for in terms of "Zelda dungeon design essays", and it needs to blow up.
Definitely my favorite dungeon in the whole series; the challenge is perfect.
So word of advice when you are in the room at 19:07 there is a upsidedown hookshot target on the floor of this room. If you break all the pots at the end wall, and then stand on the hookshot target, if you have a bombchu, place it facing that wall and it will ride up and around and hit the switch revealing the fairy chest in this room so you dont have to backtrack for it.
Most ppl think you can only hit this switch when the temple is upsidedown.
I dont know if the developers secretly intended this, as when you enter this room there is a real bomchu, hinting at using a bomchu to hit the switch.
It’s not everyday I learn something about these games, but when these days come they are welcome. Thank you
It took a good while to figure out freezing the octorocks. The ice arrow does fuck att in oot so it never occurred to me.
Another fun fact about the Igos du Ikana minions: if you wear the Bremen Mask and use it's B, they will start to dance to the music
Side note that I couldn't fit in my first comment: I'll admit that this temple can get a bit repetitive with how often you have to swap items and play the Elegy of Emptiness, but the initial climb up to the temple entrance can be shortened slightly. You only have to play the elegy a minimum of six times rather than nine. It's just a matter of placing statues on the right switches and using the hookshot to cross the gaps you can't jump over. It goes something like this:
First set of switches: place statues on switches 1 and 3, hookshot across the gap.
Second set: place statues on switches 1 and 2, hookshot across the gap.
Final set: place a statue on the switch furthest to the right when facing the temple entrance, stand on the block that arrives, then play the elegy again in the same form to remove the statue from the switch and ride the block up to the top level.
Majoras mask was the second zelda game i played. I was 9 when it came out. Every zelda game after has failed to give me another stone tower
It doesn't get much better than Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask as far as Zelda games go.
Kaze's the missing link romhack bridging the 2 stories is now canon to me
I think 3ds twinmold hurts the most. In your videos on the snowhead and great bay temples you talked about how goht puts you on the offensive while gyorg puts you on the defensive, 3ds twinmold on paper puts you on the defensive by holding onto the giant's mask until halfway through the boss which then lets you to switch to offensive but the execution horrendously drops the ball
The Stone Tower Temple is my second favorite temple. Call me stupid, but I loved the Great Bay Temple, because of how it made me think. I also found the Water Temple from Ocarina, but it might’ve helped that I played on the 3DS version for the first time.
If you use Bremens mask and play the kings soldiers dance as well
I started with the 3d remake, so the twinmold battle felt amazing, I knew that you could use the sword in the original but that seemed too powerful
this was the last zelda game with soundtrack entirely composed by koji kondo, and the first directed by aonuma :)
First time I fought twinmold in the 3ds it took me me 2 slowed in game days to finally kill it.
And I agree..this is probably my favorite zelda game of all
I find it funny that if you look at the chat replay, he says that the music in Stone Tower is one of his favorites
Then like a minute later he says the exact same thing word for word in the video
This is also in my top 5 of the best Zelda dungeons. Atmosphere and Innovation is perfect, but it could be constructed more complex. It's quite linear after all.
Although Ocarina of Time was the game I grew up with and was the Zelda game that introduced me to the series, Majora's Mask has had a presence in my life for a long time now. Growing up, I remember reading and hearing so much about how dark and twisted this game is. From discovering the Ben Drowned creepypasta to watching numerous fan-made short films, I've had a fascination with this game for the past ten years or so. Normally, I'd be annoyed with myself for not finishing a game after so long, but in this case, I'm glad I was able to experience Majora's Mask to the very end for the first time as an adult as it made me appreciate the juxtapostion of this game to its predecessor.
Ocarina of Time is about growing up, losing your childhood innocence and discovering how cruel and bleak the world can be. While it can get pretty dark at times, overall, the game carries a warm, comforting nostalgic feeling that resonates with anyone who played it at some point during their childhood. Because of this, it perfectly encapsulates that feeling of childhood freedom, especially if you're like me and played it during your pre-teen years.
If Ocarina of Time is about the loss of childhood innocence, then Majora's Mask is about coming to terms with the harsh reality of the world and learning to accept feelings of grief, loss and despair. As I mentioned in a previous comment, practically everything in this game is more mature than its predecessor, from the story and characters to the themes and subtext. This increased level of depth and maturity can be better appreciated by any adult, old or young, who has gone through their own fair share of hardships by that point in their life. Therefore, the game acts as a perfect counterpart to Ocarina of Time. The first game was a reflection of childhood and adolescence. This game is a reflection of adulthood and life as a whole.
I'm honestly not sure whether I prefer Ocarina of TIme or Majora's Mask. While Ocarina of Time is certainly the more special and impactful game of the two to me, I feel like Majora's Mask is a more polished, tightly crafted and emotionally-driven experience overall. Either way, I'm glad I got to experience these masterpieces at different points in my life as it allowed me to better appreciate their contrasting themes and messages. They're both two sides of the same coin, and no matter what anyone says, both games in the Nintendo 64 Zelda duology belong in the same tier of greatness. They are immortal, timeless classics.
I was going to include a section where I ranted a little more about the 3DS remake, but honestly, you pretty much said everything there was to say in the last segment of your video. If anyone reading this grew up with the 3DS version of Majora's Mask, more power to you. That was my first experience with the game, after all. All I'll say is that I'm baffled how Ocarina of Time's remake was a straight improvement in almost every area, while with Majora's Mask, the developers almost seemed intent on actively making the game worse through needless changes. The changes to the artstyle, boss fights and Link's abilities range from unnecessary to outright stupid. Why try to fix what wasn't broken? Don't get me wrong, there are some definite improvements in the remake, but I feel like the bad outweighs the good, and that's why I'll stick to the N64 originals for the foreseeable future.
On one final, more personal note, Skull Kid is a character I heavily relate to. I've lost a lot of friends since childhood, usually due to life getting in the way and causing us to drift apart. As a person who sometimes has difficulty controlling their emotions, I completely understand how Skull Kid feels and, at the risk of sounding like a deranged, omnicidal maniac, I would be tempted to react the same the same way if I was given access to unimaginable power to exact revenge upon those I felt had wronged me. But that's where Link comes in. Just as Skull Kid lost his only friends in the The Four Giants, Link lost his closest friend in Navi. Link's journey throughout Majora's Mask is him coming to terms with the fact that friends can't always stay together. As sad as it sounds, some people have their own commitments and responsibilities in life, sometimes beyond our understanding, that forbid long-term relationships. Skull Kid is a dark reflection of what Link could have become had he not come to the realisation that companionship is not eternal. This is reflected in the player's journey to save Termina. No matter how many people you help, no matter how many lives you save, no matter how many relationships you reconcile, you cannot save everyone. Look no farther than the Deku Butler grieving over the loss of his son during the game's credits. In the end, Skull Kid learns to let go of The Giants, just as Link learns to let go of Navi. All good things must come to an end. Even the strongest of bonds will be weakened and eventually broken by time's flow. And that's okay. All that matters is that the people you call your friends also think of you as a friend. Do what makes you happy, especially if it makes others happy too. Even if you can't make everyone happy, always try to do the right thing. As long as you don't hide your true face behind a mask, you too can be happy.
Apologies if these comments were a little later than expected. I thought it only fitting to write these down on the final day of the year. I look forward to continuing my journey with the Zelda series in the new year, and I plan to continue watching your videos alongside them.
Whenever there is a meeting, a parting is sure to follow. However, that parting need not last forever... Whether a parting be forever or merely for a short time... that is up to you. With that, please excuse me...
Actually Aonuma talked about Majora's Mask 3D in an interview. He actually hated the original Majora's Mask and was disappointed by his work, and he didn't want to do the remake. However, Miyamoto forced him to make it, so he reluctantly made it and used it as an opportunity to "fix" the game.
@@hist150project5 Oh, I'm already well aware of Aonuma's feelings towards the original. It's sad how he is so ashamed of his most beloved work and what is arguably his magnum opus. It's why I wish somebody else was put in charge of directing the remake, preferably Yoshiaki Koizumi, since he was responsible for a lot of what made the original Majora's Mask so good.
so a fun fact about stone tower temple: it is the only dungeon in the series where you can reuse the same small keys twice for the critical path thanks to the song of time. twinmold went from one problem to another. in the original they were underwhelming but a nice callback to the alttp incarnation and also very faithful. the 3ds version tried to make them more interesting but made them too linear and locked the giant's mask in the second phase. the solution should have been that depending on which mold you kill affects the outcome of the battle. in other words, the red mold is still the same for the most part while the blue mold becomes a more defensive boss and neither boss requires the giant's mask.
You can reuse the same small keys in Snowhead Temple as well
@@hist150project5 you can however not for mandatory locks. one of the small keys is behind a locked door and it is the same room as a locked door. the third locked door is technically optional. if you have hot spring water you can carry two small keys at once. the third locked door can use any of the small keys if you have the fire arrows and played the song of time.
Need a challenging Gomess? Try fighting him without light arrows!
The cursed theme made it annoying to play the Ikana section for me because I get the most intense goose bumps. Like… Constantly. Hairs standing straight as long as the song plays. Its so spooky.
I love it.
For all the dungeons Link (The hero of Time) has completed, as well as she quests, it's strange to me that he doesn't earn the triforce of wisdom. Maybe because Zelda has it, but she was basically tricked by Ganon (or at least wise to his intentions) and sent Link on a quest that actually helped ganon and caused the adult timeline. She wasn't very wise for someone with the triforce and I think the hero of Time should have had wisdom and courage, at least after Majora's Mask
It's impressive that you get to play with 5 swords in this game
Loved the video, Stone Tower is an actually challenging final dungeon, it's so creative and epic. MM is my favorite game and I'm glad you like it too (screw the 3DS remake btw).
Also, why didn't you talk about dancing Majora's Incarnation? XD
Thanks!! Stone Tower is legit my fav dungeon.
Ah in my first cut of the script I went a bit more in-depth on the final boss fight but that bit felt a bit drawn out when I was editing it so I had to make the cut for the quality of the video. It’s actually one of the best boss fights in the series though. Super good stuff.
@@CaptBurgerson ok XD I died laughing when Majora started doing the moonwalk. I'm really excited for WW!
The boss room vortex in the sky in the N64 version made me think they were trying to copy the tower Of babel as they were trying to reach a portal to the gods and I theorise that the Garo are from Hyrule as they come from rival land and termina was probably created by the goddesses before that abandoned it to create Hyrule
Hey - whats the song playing during the intro? At around 0:35
Hi! All the music I use that isn't game OST is original music that I've written for these videos.
Here's this one: th-cam.com/video/2R8vy-JXhPk/w-d-xo.html
@@CaptBurgerson wow, that is awesome. What a gem! I dig it :)
@@wezth thank you so much!!
I actually prefer the 3DS giant mask combat, yes it is clunky but it is a transformation so a change in gameplay is a nice touch, just like your attack style changes in deku/goron/zora form
I think the issue with this fight is that they made it too long as the red twinmold has a bunch of HP, I was doing a 3 heart run and this was the only boss that took me multiple attempts because any tiny mistakes added up during the course of the long fight
I still enjoy it more than "ok you big now, keep doing what you have been doing all game"
Cool! You chose correctly: Stone Tower is the greatest Zelda dungeon. Full stop.
The fairies in this temple were definitely a pain to get
Stone Tower is a phenomenal dungeon. One of my favorites but I have always found the Twin Mold fight disappointing. I don't like it in the original version and I don't like the 3DS version either. Also because you're in an empty desert it doesn't even feel like you're huge when you put on the mask.
Yayyy
Great video! My only complaint is that you went way too hard on the 3DS remake. There are certainly reasons to prefer the original, and the remake does have issues, but you really just nitpicked the remake to death. It is still largely the same game, and a perfectly fine way to play the game. I mean, really, the remake insults the player’s intelligence? I highly disagree with that. You were getting way off track with your rant there. Honestly, I think Twinmold is a lot more fun to fight in the remake. Aside from the weird rant though, this was a very enjoyable and informative video. It’s nice to see an in-depth look at the dungeons/temples.
Thanks for watching, and you’re certainly welcome to disagree with me. I stand by my feelings though. It isn’t fun for me as a player to see one of my favourite games get downgraded but I also know that some people prefer the remake. I wouldn’t think less of someone for liking it. But this is how I feel.
I appreciate you giving the video a watch though, and there’s plenty more if you’re interested. Maybe some of my views on the other games will resonate better with you. Cheers
Why is it that I've beaten this game countless times but cannot remember Gomess at all? Like not at all. Technically a sick burn to his design haha.
i have yet to pass snowhead bc i really dont enjoy games with a time limit, but i've always adored the bleakness and almost solitude this game showcases
Stone Tower on its own is enough to make me want to revisit Termina in another game. They would need to still maintain some mystery and not show all the cards like Halo did with the Forerunner
BURGERSONNNNN
Duuudeeeee this canyon is super messed up!! I am not overly torn up about never playing it as a child haha 😅 the Link she'll is definitely super creepy, and the whole concept of making shells of yourself just doesn't sit well with me for some reason.
I really like how interesting the design sounds!! The fact that there is no true central room is cool, and definitely builds on the idea that no one element of the dungeon is more important than another, similar to how all of your transformation masks are equally important to your success. And again, your analysis of the music in the temple just makes me smile 😊
This temple is so crazy!!! The thought and creativity that went into making this, i swear... Gomess is a pretty cool mid-boss that I didn't know about! And also obviously we jump into the portal in the boss room, i mean this is Zelda 😜
LINK BECAME A GIANT ROCK 'EM SOCK 'EM ROBOT!!! I'm so sad about it 😭 really, the 3DS version seriously makes me sad about remakes... I hope skyward sword doesn't get nerfed 😝
Your final wrap-up nearly had me in tears, man! This game really is something tremendously special!! Thanks for taking it through it, and highlighting everything about it that makes it special, especially the things that are often missed. Another job well done 👍🏼💚
Can't wait for Wind Waker!!
Tetra your comments are always so wonderful to read.
Seriously this is my fav dungeon for a reason! I’m glad I could convey that feeling.
It’s such an underrated game IMHO so hopefully it’ll encourage someone to give it a go!
Wind Waker coming soon!! 🌬
I only came here to reply before teTra did. now I'm heart broken.
@@GameOverJesse 😭😭
I-can-ah hurts my soul please I-Kahn-ah take it anymore 😂🙏🏼
sooo jarring...lol! It bothered me to no end; I - can - ah...ummm, NO!
They destroyed captain keeta btw too in the 3ds version. He walks now so slowly that you can hit him before he reach the first firewall😅
Keeta deserves better 😭😭
He definitely does 😔 btw there is a extra scene in the igos du ikana fight when you equip the captains hat they confuse you with captain keeta😅 and when you equip the Bremen mask the 2 guards March with you.
Are you an Ikana, or an Ikan'ta?
I-kan-not believe you’re ask me that
The best part of the remake is the notebook.
Also, what were your thoughts on OoT remake?
I’m not a huge fan of OOT3D either, but mostly I find it is inoffensive, especially compared to the changes made in MM3D.
The two big thing for me is that the physics feel off, like Link feels oddly floaty and weightless. The other thing is that overall everything is quite brightened up, which means the atmosphere gets severely downgraded. The n64 original had an enveloping sense of darkness that you just don’t get in the 3DS version. Those issues apply to both games, though, but they’re my biggest complaints for OOT specifically.
Gyro is nice though
@@CaptBurgerson I completely agree. They could do so much better.
Eh, the notebook is more annoying as they literally interupt the game every time it updates, whereas in the original you just get a notification.
I love mm
One of my favs!
so here's how i would rank each of the bosses from worst to best.
(bad bosses)
9. n64 gyorg: if you saw my comment on great bay this should come as no surprise to you. but to elaporate further on the situation their are 2 reasons why i hate this fight. the first would be gyorgs suck attack. so after i stun him i would than get into the water and use my finns to attack him. i would than try to get back on to the platform because as you know staying in the water with gyourg is a bad idea, issue is that while sometime i would be able to get back on in time, there was also plenty of times where i would have issues getting back on and gyorg would eat me. and after having this happen so many times it eventually as you can guess got on my nerves so much that i hated this boss.
it also didn''t help that when i first played mm i originally wasn't the biggest fan of great bay temple, so when i got to this boss, my mood wasn't exactly the best.
the second problem i have with fight is that i don't think it utilizes zora link that much, one of the reasons i like n64 goht is besides from the begining where you unfreeze him the rest of the time your playing as goron link which makes the battle feel more unique. while with gyorg while you do use the zora mask, it just never felt you were using it at its full potential. instead it felt more like this: put it on, slowly swim down, attack, swim up. take off, repeat. their just wasn't any excitement over using the zora mask in this fight.
8. n64 odolwa: the issues i have with odolwa are the same as gyorg, he felt a bit to difficult to beat for a first boss, and you don't get to utilize deku link at all. the only reason he's above gyorg is because gyourg took longer to beat.
(meh bosses)
7:3ds gyorg: poor gyorg worse on the n64 and now worse on the 3ds. aright so the reasons i'm putting him so low is mainly because he feels too easy for a third boss (seriously gyorg barely does anything for eiter phase of the fight) and while it might utilize the zora mask abit more than it's n64 counterpart it still doesn't feel like it's utilized to the best of it's abilitly.
6:n64 twinmold: once again the reason the reason i'm putting this so low is because while it's cool playing as giant link, twinmold just doesnt do much from what i can tell, in fact it doesn't seem like their even trying to attack you, which makes them kinda boring to fight, i also don't like that you can only hit them in their heads and tails. seriously game i'm playing as a giant link right now, this is a once in a life time opportunity, i wanna go ham on these guys.
(ok boss)
5:3ds twinmold: while 3ds twinmold defintly has its problems (giant eye, blue one does nothing) the reason i'm putting it above is because at least the red one is trying to attack you which makes it feel like a actuall boss "fight", where as the original felt more like link slaughter two giant worms trying to mind their own buisness. and because unlike the original you can actually go ham on the red one.
(good bosses)
4:majora: honestly asides from the fact that the way you beat him isn't the most original (stun him with arrows and attack) majora is still a fun boss and i really do think 4th place is perfect for him.
3: 3ds goht: while i don't like his giant eye or the fact that the chase has to come to a grinding every time you stun, i can't put him any lower simply because in the end despite it's flaws the high speed chase is still really fun.
2: 3ds odolwa: so the reasons i'm putting odolwa up this high are 1. while his eye still feels unnecessary,it doesn't stick out as much as the others. 2. you get to fight the boss as deku link the entire time which makes the fight feel more unique in my opinion. 3. unlike 3ds goht you don't have to take the mask off during the battle. 4. i had a fun time fighting him.
(great boss)
1: n64 goht: once again if you saw my comment on the great bay temple this really shouldn't come as a surprise to you. and to elaborate further their are 3 reasons i like this boss so much.1. no stupid giant eye. 2. just like with odolwa because you use the goron mask for the entire fight it makes it feel more unique. 3. like i said earllier with 3ds goht the high speed chase you have with goht is so damn fun and never gets boring.
I won’t say I agree on all points, but you articulate your views on them very well!
Goht is truly a great battle, definitely deserves that top spot!
Imagine just being a random NPC just hanging outside in Ikana Canyon, minding your business, poking some dedudes, and you get to watch the Stone Tower Temple flip over itself like a fidget spinner
I have one positive thing to say about the weird eyeball weak spots they give to every boss in the 3DS remake: The fact that they look like Majora’s eyeballs helps to show Majora’s presence in the curses corrupting all of the dungeons. Visually, I kind of like it.
You’re right though that from a gameplay perspective it hurts the boss fights more than anything else.
34:12 Interesting. Majora's Mask 3D made a boatload of insulting hand-holding changes, but I don't remember Tatl being any more helpful.
She does give more hints as to where to go, particularly during the early portions of the game
@@CaptBurgerson As mentioned in another comment on this video, it looks like the only bit of extra dialogue is after you get the moon tear. In fact, there are actually a few moments where they removed some of Tatl's dialogue.
However, there are other bits of handholding that you didn't mention. For example, the moving deku flower platforms in the Deku Palace and the Woodfall Temple are now completely stationary unless you are standing on them. Combine that with the new ability to show exactly where you're going to land, it completely removes the challenge of these segments.
In addition, in Stone Tower Temple they added a crack to the floor you have to bomb which completely defeats the purpose of the puzzle in that room.
its indeed an incredible dungeon, a very complex one. and you are still on a timer XD
Remakes are made for this younger generation that likes everything easy and gains no satisfaction from figuring stuff out
21:51
Eye-can-uh? Sa-no-tuh? Dude, I know for a fact that Sonata pronounced Soh-NAH-tuh! Not sure about Ikana, but I've always heard it as ee-KAH-nuh.
Sonata is my mispronunciation, just a normal human mistake.
Ikana, that’s never a word that’s been vocalized in an official capacity, and I’ve heard a number of ways to pronounce it, so that’s harder to say.
In the end though, so not a big deal honestly
For someone who claims to suck at music theory, you sure are insightful.
Thanks! I try ahaha. Legit I am not good at music theory - I can’t even read sheet music, but I do love music, and I do my best to articulate that!
This is one of the last good zelda temple, from botw and onwards its only watered down (divine beastly) temples with locks which are spoonfed to you.
I agree that the dungeons of botw and TotK are weaker, but I would hardly call this one of the last greats when there is still Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and a healthy collection of handheld Zelda titles all with some very good dungeons in them, all after Majora’s Mask
One of the last great temples, not the last
@@Chris-qr8ng i understand what you’re saying, I’m just pointing out that there were like two recent games with weaker dungeons, and like 10 games with good dungeons between MM and those
@@Chris-qr8ng Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword have great temples. So do the 2D ones like Oracles, Minish Cap, Spirit Tracks (Phantom Hourglass is weaker), and A Link Between Worlds. It's hardly one of the last great temples.
Oh hi bob
“Oh hi Bob” he said, but there was no Bob. So we all ask ourselves: what did he mean by that? Something beyond our comprehension. Something we as mere mortals could never understand
@@CaptBurgerson it's an smg4 reference
@@foxy927blades6 listen here- I am 30 years old, I don’t watch that
Lol. The remake makes you feel more handheld..... It IS a handheld tho lol.
I guess this is the only dungeon with 3 (!) different and unique minibosses. Comparing the enemy variety of the classic zeldagames to BotW and Totk... makes the new games feeling like a joke... 😐
Yay! I'm glad I'm not the only one that hates the bosses extra eyes on 3DS game...
Majora's Mask is a true Masterpiece. And I agree, it is a true worl of art. I also found the 3DS version to be inferior in many respects. The og N64 version is where it's at! Well done my friend!
Although the DS remake did add some things that made Majora's Mask better there are others that made it bland and/or frustating to play.
Did you just say "sowthern"??
Hi it’s called an accent and that’s how everyone pronounces it here
@@CaptBurgerson I honestly didn't expect a reply. First, I agree with everything in your video and Stone Tower is one of the best dungeons ever. Second, I wasn't intending to make fun of you, just poke at the accent a bit. What accent is it, is I may ask? I noticed you pronounce a lot of other words in a way I'm not really familiar with, and I speak multiple languages.
@@Rune_Scholar lol you’re all good! No offence was taken. I get comments about “southern” and “lava” a lot among a few other words hahaha.
I’m west-coast Canadian btw! Cheers
@@CaptBurgerson Ah, that explains it. I'd thought maybe Canadian but I'm more familiar with East Coast. It's a unique and interesting accent.
ben drowned man..
Stop saying souwthern.
No