other youtubers who reviewed diode laser engravers could not explain why they could not cut cleanly in one axis. You explained it clearly and I love the visual models. Great job.
Makes total sense. There are other factors at play here though. The diode laser I have has trouble with .75mm modeling plywood (5 layers). But 3mm basswood (linden) it blows right through. MDF, it really struggles with 2mm. At higher power ratings it scorches the material. One factor here is the material compostion
There are many factors when printing wood that come into play. The density of the wood is one, but also how moist the wood is, makes a big difference. plywood from my warm room cuts way better, then the same plywood from the shed, where the humidity is much bigger. I make tests before I start cutting to test for the best speed and power settings.
Thank you so much for this explanation - especially the 3D printed representation. I've recently bought a diode laser (had a CO2 for years) and have been scratching my head on results. Low power etching gives lines in X and Y that appear identical in width, but high power cutting yielded what you are showing thin in one direction and thick in the other, I couldn't figure out why because my experience with a true round dot on the CO2. Now it all makes sense!!! The deeper I cut the further from the round focal point I am and the wider it gets in one direction! Thank you so much for this explanation!!
There are special Collimation lenses that can be used, however that requires to not only add that lens, but also open the housing of the laser and align the diode to be perfect with the lens. This should only be done if you are comfortable working with lasers, and know how to do it the safe way.
Nice explanation about beam divergence. Have you tried using the air assist blowing straigth with the beam instead of blowing at 45 degrees at where the laser is cutting? It will improve the cutting ability of the diode. Also you need to have in mind the directions of the wood fibers when cutting with less power. You could try to rotate the plywood 90 degrees and see if you get the same results. You could also change the axis direction from where the air assist is blowing at 45 degrees and see if you notice any diferences on the results.
My previous air assist (type 1) was a pipe with an opening on the top were the laser light came from the same pipe as the air. Yet, this was way less effective as this air assist is. I have made 8 itterations to test different types of air assists, and this (up until now) was the best. But, I am not finished yet, as I am renewing my desing from time to time.
Great explanation! Thanks. I upgraded my sculpfun s6 pro to air assist thinking it would blow out the ash and allow me to get through 1/4". Made no difference at all. Center of my 1/4" material is burned to ash, cant get all the way through, and just as he described, i cut through on x axis, but not on y, because the beambis less intense on y on my machine.
Hi, Of course I don't know how well your air assist works, but the difference between working with or without an airassist should be about 20% depth in a material like wood. The question is, is your airflow straight down, or does it spread, and also, howe much air are you using, what is the presure you are using? If your airflow and presure are good, then you could try lowering your power and try using a higher speed. This sound strange, I know, Yet now you can make more passes and your airflow will be more sufficient in blowing away the ashes, so that the laser burns fresh and clean wood, instead of it strugling with the ashes on top of the wood. Also, where do you ficus your laser? The best place to ficus the laser is in the middel of your material. if set correctly, you should be able to cut the back of the material almost as easy as the top of the material. Of course there are limits to what you can cut, but with these tricks (if you didn't already uise them) you can cut a bit deeper into the wood. Good luck, and let me know if it helped.
@@3dPrintCreator Im using the official Sculpfun s9 kit and full blow. It mught have made a 20% difference in depth, but i was expecting it to give me lightly browned edges and they still turn to charcoal. My point was more that it wasnt the miracle cure. Im brand new to this. Going to limit myself to 3mm max thickness and then learn the machine.
I have a diode laser Atomstack A5 pro and now I have a CO2 laser 50W The CO2 really 8-10X stronger and faster but it does not really cut deeper than the Diode laser both of them cuts about 10mm. You can put a longer lens into the CO2 laser which make possible deeper cuts but than power reduce about 3X so it is not that strong anymore. And than comes the problem of conusing (in both cases)
I'm very new to laser and bought a cheap one the get first experiences. It's good to know about the limitations and how to handle it (even it's not possible). Thank you very much for your great explanation.
Would be interesting if the machine could be designed to be self height adjustable during the cutting so it could stay in focus all the way through the cut.
Most cheap engravers don't have a Z adjustment but the software I am using is capable of controlling the Z height. I have yet, not seen any Chinese laser engraver that can work with these commands from the software.
I mounted a diode laser to my cnc machine which is also a router. I have an adjustable z axis so theoretically I can do subsequent passes at lower levels. Just like a router.
That will give you so much more options to cut deeper. :-) Only know that because of the shape of the kerf, the depth won't ever be deeper than about 5mm on harder materials, and 10mm on soft foam etc.
@@3dPrintCreator Yeah, your explanation of the kerf shape explains why I couldn't cut out cardboard shapes for custom boxes. It makes perfect sense now! (I make custom boxes for my signs out of recycled sheets/boxes from appliances, furniture etc)
BTW Dual diodes and quad diodes laser modules have square beam pattern and it just becomes bit wider with the distance. So for example Neje dual diode lasers can cut over 1 cm in wood. BTW there are different focusing rules when engraving and cutting. Neje tells you distance you need to set up the focus when cutting the thick materials. Not to forget to mention air assist helps a lot with cutting to. It becomes faster and cleaner to.
You saved the Chinaman! I thought my laser came broken. I even opened a dispute. Now I know that dot and line are the norm with these lasers. Of course, I closed the dispute after your video. Thank you.
It cant be wasted from a conservation of energy point of view, but it is most certainly wasted from work done in cutting point of view. The wasted energy, wile not "lost" is most certainly wasted (going where you don't want it or need it to be) and not doing what you would have liked it to do.
I’m pretty sure this isn’t an issue with the Neje 40640 laser. It uses 2 x 7.5watt lasers that combine a form a very tight square. I have seen several videos of it in use, but it’s a little hard to understand why users seem to be getting very different results. At it’s best, it seems to be pretty darn capable.
I recently got a NEJE 3MAX with a 40640 laser diode! I use it to cut leather mainly! I use 3mm veg tanned leather. Cut perfect in one direction but not in the other! I also use air assist, but the problem remains!
Thanks. Yes there is... Buy a CO2 laser, and the problem is gone :-) Maar zonder gekheid, nee... helaas niet. Dit is een eigenschap van een diode laser.
@@3dPrintCreator Bedankt , For the other readers too in English. Do you know something about the real lifetime of power diode lasers and the effect of temperature that has on it. I read things around 10.000 hr but is that real?
There is no real data for that. Running a diode laser on maximum power, means you have to cool down the laser better, than when running on, for example, 75% power. I do have a lot of lasers here, and in a few years time, I only had one diode laser head replaced, because it burned, yet this was the direct result of a wiring problem, where I made a mistake. When you search on Facebook groups, or forums, you will find people that burned their lasers too, yet I don't know what they did to make it happen. I only know I melted one of my lasers because I made a stupid mistake cutting out the cooling fan.
@@3dPrintCreator Sorry, I meant cutting a layer, refocusing the laser, cutting another layer, refocusing the laser (or changing the z-height - depending on laser) and so repeat. Or would refocusing the laser miss-align the beam?
@@martinlaak Yes, that's a good way of getting more depth in the cut. There are lasers now that have this auto sinking function, like the Ikier and the Atezr models.
There isn't for this particular laser, but there are other lasers out there that have square beams. When you look at a laser, always look at the dot size. if the two given numbers are the same, the beams is square.
Why? What do you want to change about the fact that a laser burns material, that a saw shatters material, and that a shovel makes a trench? The fact that tools lose some material when dividing an object and two parts remain is simply a fact. The only thing you can do about it is to take it into account, nothing more.
If the build quality of the laser versus the lens would have been better, yes that would be easy. Now it is only possible if you open the housing of the laser and align the diode yourself in the correct orientation so it lines up with the collimation lens. There are people on TH-cam who have done this.
@@3dPrintCreator interesting, I bought the neje master 2s plus with the dual laser module and I got through 12mm ply, but the last 2mm took more passes than the whole first half. Not bad though, and I keep the laser on 80% Max. Got any links or search queries? I may look into Thus.
@@adrianscarlett I myself try to stay away from facebook (although I do have an account). There you will find some groups that have posts about collimation lenses, and I have once seen a detailed instruction on how to replace the lens and align the laser diode for an Ortur Laser Master 2 machine. But, if you have the dual laser module, you should not have this problem, as one laser is horizontally and the other vertically aligned. In fact, on a dual laser module, you can't use a collimation lens at all.
@@3dPrintCreator interesting, I never thought about there being issues with collimation of a dual laser. I'm the same with facebook, I created an account when it first appeared, and until I was forced to use it with my oculus quest 2, I'd logged in maybe 3 or 4 times
I have a Snapmaker 2.0 A350 10W diode laser that can cut through 8mm. They just released a 20W and 40W diode... I don't really need to go thicker than 8mm to make finger joints...
When we focusing rectangular shape beam we achive smaler rectangular shape in focal point. Here we never get a dot shape, with gaussian power distribution. So we have to use plano-convex lens to focus laser diode beam in two direction. This way is used to focusing light from diode laser into fibers. Plano-convex lens are not cheap so in cheap laser modules we can not find it. Cheapest lens this type i can find in all website was 70-100€ but it can cost a lot more. Laser cuting technology is very difficult, good results can not be achive with cheap setups.
Correct, and you don't need just a planar convection lens, but one that is made specifically for this approximately 5x1 ratio, and we still need to be able to focus it. Not worth the effort for a cheap laser like this. All in all, a cheap CO2 laser will be much cheaper.
@@3dPrintCreator Right but this methode you can focus beam into smal point only in focal length, so this is good enoughth for engraving, where depth of focus i relatively smal - maby 0.2mm. When you have colimated and square shape beam u can focus it with lens with big focal point, maby 2", there you get a long and thin beam, good for cutting. Most important problem is remove smoke or molted material form thin gap. If cuts id depper the gap must be wider so laser power density will drop. There is limit for small power laser system.
So just a hypothetical question here, if you know the depth of cut your laser makes in a single pass could you alter the z axis by that amount for each pass ? Would this give you a narrower kerf and allow a deeper cut ? Obviously you will still have a finite depth of cut because the lens can only get so close to the top of the material, but in theory you could either raise the bed of the laser or lower the diode head itself on each pass
Not really, As the focal point is the only point where there is real energy to burn the material, as you get deeper into the material, the V shaped beam will hit the surface of the material out of focus, so less energy is reaching the depth where you want to have the energy. Also, there is ashes and coal there where the laser has already burned, and there you would need airflow and even more laser power. As a diode laser always works with a light beam with a focus, it will never be perfect for multi layer cutting with variable Z height. Therefore you will need a CO2 laser.
@@3dPrintCreator Oh I agree that CO2 lasers are much better, what I was saying is that by altering the z axis height you are altering the height in the material where the laser is focused, now I fully agree that this would only have a very limited effect and without blowing out the ash from previous cuts it's almost useless, but let us take the following example, lets say the laser head is 20mm above the work surface and in sharp focus and that it cuts 0.5mm deep per pass, let us also assume you have a directed air blast clearing the ash, the potentially with each pass you could lower the laser by 0.5mm and do another cut at optimum focus, the beam to the focus point is a V shape so your limit on depth will be the point at which the beam is wider than the slot it's cutting OR the point at which the air blast no longer clears the ash of the previous cut, I suspect economically it's not worth doing, you'd probably only gain a few mm extra depth of cut, but maybe as a modification even manually winding down the laser head using a head in a dovetail slot wound down by a calibrated screw thread it's perhaps the sort of thing a hobbyist could do, you'd need to pause the laser at the end of each pass in order to wind the head down, but for some people a few mm extra depth of cut might be all they need ?
I found this idea interesting enough to do some testing with my laser. I tried many different things to optimize my airflow and focal point, yet the best result I got, gained not more than 0.9 millimeter more depth in soft balsawood, and even less in plywood. Therefore, I decided not to make a video about this, but I wanted to let you know this result, because I liked the idea. Thanks.
Thank you so much for video, it is very detailed. I need to cut wood veneer that its thickness is about 0.6-1 mm (marquetry). First, do you suggest diode laser usage for this purpose. And which power will be better, neje 7 watt and more passes or 40w maybe less passes. I am asking this because I checked data sheets and I saw that neje 7 has 0.01 focus diameter but 40 watt have 0.1 mm it is greater than 10 times, thank you so much, best
I don't have any experience with the 40Watt (or 30Watt) lasers yet, but knowing what is possible with the 15 and 20Watt versions, and comparing them to the 7 Watt machine, I would go for power in this particular case. As long as the cuts are good looking and nice, it's doesn't really matter how big the kerf is.
If it cuts, then it will cut deep, you will need to keep the cutting point at focus and cut shoulders so the beam doesn't get attenuated. All manufacturing has its own quirks.
It's won't cut deep because after only a few millimeters, the beam is out of focus. If only the machine had a moving Z axis, then it would be able to cut deep.
great informative video. Thanks! Do software exists, that can control an exstra motor. to control rotation of the laser. to keep the best angel of the laser beam all 360 degre around. would be pretty easy to 3d print a holder that can turn it the 180 degre needed.
Excellente video, this is an explaination that Atomstack does not understand. Thank you for an easy to follow explaination and an example. Can you post the lightburn file for your test piece? Thank you.
No, and at this time there are lasers that are made like that. Ortur has the Laser Master 2 Pro, that uses a laser like that, but also other brands now are doing this.
@@3dPrintCreatorNot really on the circumference. This works well with lines located on the X or Y axes, any oblique lines start to work worse due to the fact that the beam configuration is not a point and not a square, but a rectangle. And when the feed comes from the long side, the power applied to one point is less than when feeding from the short side.
@@Maksim_Luchikhin Sorry, but then you really misunderstood the explanation. In the X axis, the rectangular shape of the projection benefits the user because the slice is at its thinnest. In the Y axis, the user has the greatest disadvantage, because the cut is then at its thickest. All of course in relation to time, because the laser moves at a certain speed over the surface of the object to be engraved or cut. So X is maximum profit, Y is minimum profit, and in the oblique lines, depending on the angle, it is somewhere in between.
So.. If it is a fixed laser. ( not adjustable) it is strongest at the surface of the item cut, due to using the measuring tool no matter the material. So maybe on a thicker material i remove the shield and set the laser slightly deeper into the material??? Wouldnt that help cut deeper? Is it not possible to have a second or third lense to refocus the lazer more into a straight line?
You are completely right here. In fact, this is done with the new versions of lasers that are now hitting the market. In my video about the Aufero laser, I explain that people can make their choice between 3 types of lasers, one of them being a Long Focus laser (LF) that uses multiple lenses to make a more compressed spot at a longer focal distance. With that laser, that has the same optical power as the laser in this video, the cut can be almost 3 times as deep.
@@3dPrintCreator I will have to look that video up. I would think that a larger focal would maybe be better for cutting as it would keep the two halves from being so close. But also not impede the laser as it digs deeper. Whats your opinion on the neje 80w laser? Seems to be most powerful at 7.5w x 2laser =15w.
@@turboflush from what I have seen, the NeJe is really good, but they don't work with me, so it's not possible for me to test their lasers. I don't know if they have the most powerful laser at the moment, I think the Skulpfun S9 is even more capable to cut thick materials. My latest knowledge about NeJe is outdated as this was my very first laser I bought and I had many problems with that machine. They have improved a lot since I tested a NeJe machine, but I never had one after my first test.
One problem is that would distort the design. Let's say that you want to make a 10 mm cut at 45 degrees, at a speed of one 1 mm per second, so it will take 10 seconds to make that cut. The only way to do that would be to move the x and y directions the same amount in those 10 seconds. If you slow the movement in the y direction down by 30%, then the laser will cover 30% less distance on the y-axis than in de x-axis. That means that, in those 10 seconds, the laser will have moved some distance in the x-axis, but only 0.7 times that distance in the y-axis, so you would not get a 45 degree angle. And if you tried to cut a 10 x 10 square, you would end up with a 10 x 7 rectangle, since the height will be reduced by 30%. So you can't arbitrarily slow down in only one of the directions, the "Cartesian mechanism" that the machine uses would distort the image. But the real problem is that the laser doesn't cut better in the x direction than y direction. Best cutting effenciency is achieved when all the light is focused in the smallest possible dot right at the surface of the material. If it's not properly focused at that particular distance, the light is spread out (in this case in the shape of a square, because that's the shape of the light emitting semi-conductor inside, I think) but it's equally spread out in the x-axis as it is in the y-axis. So it "loses effenciency " at the "same rate" in both axes. Hope that makes sense.
@@SatumangoTheGreat I said slow down the movement, not move less. As in, increase the time between stepper motor pulses, not decrease the amount of stepper motor pulses.
@@andrewwatts1997 I know, but the direction the laser is going depends on the relative speeds of the two motors. If the y-axis moves at a certain speed and the speed on the x-axis is zero, the laser cuts a vertical line. If the x-axis moves at a certain speed, but the speed on the y-axis is zero, the laser cuts horizontally. If the x- and y-axis move at the same speed, the laser cuts diagonally at an angle of 45 degrees. If you slow the y-axis to half the speed of the x-axis, the laser cuts diagonally at an angle of 22.5 degrees. That laser is going somewhere, cutting all the time. If you change the speed of that laser on one of the axes, it is going to veer off course. What you could do is change both speeds at the same time, keeping the laser on its correct course but moving slower, thus giving it more time to burn trough the material. Or repeat the path of the laser several times, burning away a layer of the material at each pass. That is wat he is doing in the video btw.
I think your laser might have a problem. I had the same issue and I emailed them. We were back and forth with emails and tests. The outcome was that they will replace the laser.
@@3dPrintCreator well after I notice one side was cutting with a fine line and the other side had a broader cut which didn’t go through, just like yours. So I thought I wasn’t focusing it right, I did some research and I saw some people had the same issue. I emailed ortur and I had to run some tests they sent. I dunno, maybe I’m wrong and my problem is different 🤷🏽♂️🥺
OK BUT we have the new 2021 type of laser engravers like the Atomstack A5 Pro and the Banggood Sculpfun S6 pro (very similar machines) which have new optics so they call it Spot Compressed Laser and they promise that the light beam is square and smaller than before 0,23x0,23mm. I just ordered the Atomstack we will see :-)))
@@ACNNOMOREBLUFF Hi sooo I got it about 4 days ago did not have too much time to play with it and I does not have air assist yet STILL it cuts 5mm plywood beautifully which is over my expectations with very minimal conusing.. it takes time no question about it but it cuts 5mm normal plywood. What it does not cut is anything which is over 10-12 mm but I still have to play with it.. I cuts foam like nothing but when I tried 20mm foam it only could go down about to the half of the material and it stopped even I gave it 50 runs the laser light just evaporates or something like that. I tried 16mm light wood and it cannot do that either. So the max height of any material could be about 10-12mm and that is it. The square light beam is not really true it is probably better than before but it still cuts vertically better than horizontally. I think it is a great machine for the minimal price it costs. I am about to make some bed of nails for it (from gluing pushpins to a plywood) because raising the material is very good for cutting, and I will make a box with ventilation ands also think about air support that helps a lot as others said... ) I hope I could help... rockjano
@@bacsijancsi Yep, i confirm the air assist will change it fully. I have an old model with 15Kw blue beam laser, and i added the air assist a year ago. Now, it cuts up to 20 mm wood plates. So keep going ;-)
@@ACNNOMOREBLUFF Whoaaaa.. that is crazy :-) is it somehow blows the smoke out of the cutted material??? The 15Kw real cutting is something like 4 watt no??? Mine is theoretically 40W (really it is 20W) but that is the power consumption and the real power with mine is about 5-5,5 W which is still a far cray from any CO2 laser but a lot less hustle...
There is no answer to this question. For a nice and clean cut, I would say 4mm. For a dirty hole in a piece of wood... maybe 5cm? Depending on the type of wood and when it catches fire.
Quite fascinating I have been well educated thanks for your insure. I wonder if a z axis and ,"not sure how to express it" but the head could turn to follow the direction of travel should surely make a big difference. I suppose this is hard or expensive to implement?
In fact it's not that expensive, yet it is very difficult. Every 3D-Printer has a Z axis with one, and sometimes, two motors for the height adjustment. The problem is that the first cut is the deepest as there is no ashes to block the light. After that, the next passes are less effective and also the KERF is getting in the way. Going deeper also means that the top of the material will be hit by a wider beam of light, therefore blocking the light. This means that less light will get to the correct focal point, and therefore it will be less effective.
Good review. I will bay a laser. The CO2 is very high price about 2000 to 3500 euro. The cheap form china have to many problems en not save. I looking now for a led laser they say whichs a new dessign better cut and smaller. I think for my not a probleem. What i will cut is paper and veneer 0,5 a0,6 mm. I hope jou now how cut it. Most is the problem black edge. What i now is better more power en faster cuts than an low power diode whits a slow cut. Onlu i con't find i move whit cutting veneer only one whits a co2 cutter of 4000 euro. I looking for the S6 of S9 lasercutter. Thank.
The S6 and S9 are very good machines. They have a very condensed spot, good for detailed cutting. I don't know what the settings are for cutting veneer, I have never done that. Generally speaking, get a high power module for cutting, that always works best as you don't need to operate it at high power.
No, unless you burn a V slot, so the kerf won't hit the sides of the material. Otherwise you won't get enough energy down to where you need it when going deeper.
I cut 3mm ply with 200mm per sec, speed 100% power, 3 passes with 0.3 mm z depth per pass. And cuts are 99% perfect.. That's with the sainsmart 5.5w laser
At the time I made the video, 5 Watt was good. The other lasers were only 0.5 or 1.2 Watt optical out. At this moment, I run up to 60Watt diode lasers, yet the more power they have, the more the KERF is important. And that, my friend, was what the video is about. The kerf, not how thick it can cut.
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other youtubers who reviewed diode laser engravers could not explain why they could not cut cleanly in one axis. You explained it clearly and I love the visual models. Great job.
Thanks for the compliments
Makes total sense. There are other factors at play here though. The diode laser I have has trouble with .75mm modeling plywood (5 layers). But 3mm basswood (linden) it blows right through. MDF, it really struggles with 2mm. At higher power ratings it scorches the material. One factor here is the material compostion
There are many factors when printing wood that come into play.
The density of the wood is one, but also how moist the wood is, makes a big difference. plywood from my warm room cuts way better, then the same plywood from the shed, where the humidity is much bigger.
I make tests before I start cutting to test for the best speed and power settings.
Thank you so much for this explanation - especially the 3D printed representation. I've recently bought a diode laser (had a CO2 for years) and have been scratching my head on results. Low power etching gives lines in X and Y that appear identical in width, but high power cutting yielded what you are showing thin in one direction and thick in the other, I couldn't figure out why because my experience with a true round dot on the CO2. Now it all makes sense!!!
The deeper I cut the further from the round focal point I am and the wider it gets in one direction! Thank you so much for this explanation!!
There are special Collimation lenses that can be used, however that requires to not only add that lens, but also open the housing of the laser and align the diode to be perfect with the lens.
This should only be done if you are comfortable working with lasers, and know how to do it the safe way.
Amazing video! Are you going to review the neje master 2s 40 watts
I hope so, but untill now, Neje didn't react to my requests.
Nice explanation about beam divergence. Have you tried using the air assist blowing straigth with the beam instead of blowing at 45 degrees at where the laser is cutting? It will improve the cutting ability of the diode. Also you need to have in mind the directions of the wood fibers when cutting with less power. You could try to rotate the plywood 90 degrees and see if you get the same results. You could also change the axis direction from where the air assist is blowing at 45 degrees and see if you notice any diferences on the results.
My previous air assist (type 1) was a pipe with an opening on the top were the laser light came from the same pipe as the air. Yet, this was way less effective as this air assist is.
I have made 8 itterations to test different types of air assists, and this (up until now) was the best.
But, I am not finished yet, as I am renewing my desing from time to time.
Now I understand why my module was not cutting it correctly in one axis. Thank you for enlightening the audience. 👏🏻👏🏻
Great explanation! Thanks. I upgraded my sculpfun s6 pro to air assist thinking it would blow out the ash and allow me to get through 1/4". Made no difference at all. Center of my 1/4" material is burned to ash, cant get all the way through, and just as he described, i cut through on x axis, but not on y, because the beambis less intense on y on my machine.
Hi,
Of course I don't know how well your air assist works, but the difference between working with or without an airassist should be about 20% depth in a material like wood. The question is, is your airflow straight down, or does it spread, and also, howe much air are you using, what is the presure you are using?
If your airflow and presure are good, then you could try lowering your power and try using a higher speed. This sound strange, I know, Yet now you can make more passes and your airflow will be more sufficient in blowing away the ashes, so that the laser burns fresh and clean wood, instead of it strugling with the ashes on top of the wood.
Also, where do you ficus your laser? The best place to ficus the laser is in the middel of your material. if set correctly, you should be able to cut the back of the material almost as easy as the top of the material. Of course there are limits to what you can cut, but with these tricks (if you didn't already uise them) you can cut a bit deeper into the wood.
Good luck, and let me know if it helped.
@@3dPrintCreator Im using the official Sculpfun s9 kit and full blow. It mught have made a 20% difference in depth, but i was expecting it to give me lightly browned edges and they still turn to charcoal. My point was more that it wasnt the miracle cure. Im brand new to this. Going to limit myself to 3mm max thickness and then learn the machine.
I have a diode laser Atomstack A5 pro and now I have a CO2 laser 50W The CO2 really 8-10X stronger and faster but it does not really cut deeper than the Diode laser both of them cuts about 10mm. You can put a longer lens into the CO2 laser which make possible deeper cuts but than power reduce about 3X so it is not that strong anymore. And than comes the problem of conusing (in both cases)
I'm very new to laser and bought a cheap one the get first experiences. It's good to know about the limitations and how to handle it (even it's not possible). Thank you very much for your great explanation.
Fantastic information explained slow and concise. Thanks!
Thanks for the compliment. :-)
Would be interesting if the machine could be designed to be self height adjustable during the cutting so it could stay in focus all the way through the cut.
Most cheap engravers don't have a Z adjustment but the software I am using is capable of controlling the Z height.
I have yet, not seen any Chinese laser engraver that can work with these commands from the software.
I mounted a diode laser to my cnc machine which is also a router. I have an adjustable z axis so theoretically I can do subsequent passes at lower levels. Just like a router.
That will give you so much more options to cut deeper. :-)
Only know that because of the shape of the kerf, the depth won't ever be deeper than about 5mm on harder materials, and 10mm on soft foam etc.
@@3dPrintCreator Yeah, your explanation of the kerf shape explains why I couldn't cut out cardboard shapes for custom boxes.
It makes perfect sense now!
(I make custom boxes for my signs out of recycled sheets/boxes from appliances, furniture etc)
A lot of cnc’s now have a laser option. But most I’ve seen start at $700.
Wouldn't adding a Z axis remedy some of this?
Yes, it will for sure.
Light burn allows a Z step for each pass. For instance, on my Endurance Laser, I set the step to 0.5mm per pass. It does help.
All your videos are very informative thankyou
Thanks for your compliment.
Can you tell me,how far should the lens barrel screw into the ortur factory holder please
Great video! Thanks a lot!
I tried to cut plywood yesterday and I didn't understand why is this difference in cuts in different directions
Your Welcome :-)
Thanks for your dedication.
Perfect and clearly explained. Thank you
BTW Dual diodes and quad diodes laser modules have square beam pattern and it just becomes bit wider with the distance. So for example Neje dual diode lasers can cut over 1 cm in wood. BTW there are different focusing rules when engraving and cutting. Neje tells you distance you need to set up the focus when cutting the thick materials. Not to forget to mention air assist helps a lot with cutting to. It becomes faster and cleaner to.
Totally true :-)
Thank you very much this video explained lots of misconceptions i had 🙏
You saved the Chinaman! I thought my laser came broken. I even opened a dispute. Now I know that dot and line are the norm with these lasers. Of course, I closed the dispute after your video. Thank you.
Lol, thanks for sharing that.
I heard from the people from Ortur that occasionally, they receive machines because of this complaint.
A minor (?) correction: the energy is not 'wasted' or lost in the wide part of the spot, but rather the energy density is reduced proportionally.
Quite true of course. Energy can never arise from nothing, and never be lost in nothing. The term wasted is used incorrectly.
@@3dPrintCreator Strangely enough, there may be exceptions to that law.
It cant be wasted from a conservation of energy point of view, but it is most certainly wasted from work done in cutting point of view. The wasted energy, wile not "lost" is most certainly wasted (going where you don't want it or need it to be) and not doing what you would have liked it to do.
I’m pretty sure this isn’t an issue with the Neje 40640 laser. It uses 2 x 7.5watt lasers that combine a form a very tight square. I have seen several videos of it in use, but it’s a little hard to understand why users seem to be getting very different results. At it’s best, it seems to be pretty darn capable.
I can't say anything about that specific laser as I never tried it. I hear good things about it though.
I recently got a NEJE 3MAX with a 40640 laser diode! I use it to cut leather mainly! I use 3mm veg tanned leather. Cut perfect in one direction but not in the other! I also use air assist, but the problem remains!
Das beste Demo was ich in englischer Sprache gesehen habe! Ich habe jede Sekunde verstanden! Danke!
thanks man good explanation. Mooi verteld en uitgelegd. Is there anything we can do about that focus problem.
Thanks.
Yes there is... Buy a CO2 laser, and the problem is gone :-)
Maar zonder gekheid, nee... helaas niet. Dit is een eigenschap van een diode laser.
@@3dPrintCreator Bedankt , For the other readers too in English. Do you know something about the real lifetime of power diode lasers and the effect of temperature that has on it. I read things around 10.000 hr but is that real?
There is no real data for that.
Running a diode laser on maximum power, means you have to cool down the laser better, than when running on, for example, 75% power.
I do have a lot of lasers here, and in a few years time, I only had one diode laser head replaced, because it burned, yet this was the direct result of a wiring problem, where I made a mistake.
When you search on Facebook groups, or forums, you will find people that burned their lasers too, yet I don't know what they did to make it happen. I only know I melted one of my lasers because I made a stupid mistake cutting out the cooling fan.
Great explanation ❤
Thank you.
Awesome explanation, thank you 👍
What was the input and output wattage of the laser in the video?
The total input on the machine was like 3 Amp, but the output power of the laser is about 5 Watt.
What about re-focusing the laser in the middle of the cut? Would that allow us to cut deeper?
Btw, thank you for the video - very informative.
For sure. Focussing in the middle of the object is always the best choice.
@@3dPrintCreator Sorry, I meant cutting a layer, refocusing the laser, cutting another layer, refocusing the laser (or changing the z-height - depending on laser) and so repeat. Or would refocusing the laser miss-align the beam?
@@martinlaak Yes, that's a good way of getting more depth in the cut. There are lasers now that have this auto sinking function, like the Ikier and the Atezr models.
Pity there isn't a correction lens to give a parallel beam without too much light loss (unless someone know s different).
There isn't for this particular laser, but there are other lasers out there that have square beams.
When you look at a laser, always look at the dot size. if the two given numbers are the same, the beams is square.
But , How can I solve this problem??
Why?
What do you want to change about the fact that a laser burns material, that a saw shatters material, and that a shovel makes a trench? The fact that tools lose some material when dividing an object and two parts remain is simply a fact. The only thing you can do about it is to take it into account, nothing more.
I wonder if adding a proper collimation lens would be possible?
If the build quality of the laser versus the lens would have been better, yes that would be easy.
Now it is only possible if you open the housing of the laser and align the diode yourself in the correct orientation so it lines up with the collimation lens.
There are people on TH-cam who have done this.
@@3dPrintCreator interesting, I bought the neje master 2s plus with the dual laser module and I got through 12mm ply, but the last 2mm took more passes than the whole first half. Not bad though, and I keep the laser on 80% Max.
Got any links or search queries? I may look into Thus.
@@adrianscarlett I myself try to stay away from facebook (although I do have an account). There you will find some groups that have posts about collimation lenses, and I have once seen a detailed instruction on how to replace the lens and align the laser diode for an Ortur Laser Master 2 machine.
But, if you have the dual laser module, you should not have this problem, as one laser is horizontally and the other vertically aligned. In fact, on a dual laser module, you can't use a collimation lens at all.
@@3dPrintCreator interesting, I never thought about there being issues with collimation of a dual laser.
I'm the same with facebook, I created an account when it first appeared, and until I was forced to use it with my oculus quest 2, I'd logged in maybe 3 or 4 times
I have a Snapmaker 2.0 A350 10W diode laser that can cut through 8mm. They just released a 20W and 40W diode... I don't really need to go thicker than 8mm to make finger joints...
More power doesn't only mean more thickness when cutting. It also means more speed when engraving, or in some materials even cleaner cuts.
When we focusing rectangular shape beam we achive smaler rectangular shape in focal point. Here we never get a dot shape, with gaussian power distribution. So we have to use plano-convex lens to focus laser diode beam in two direction. This way is used to focusing light from diode laser into fibers. Plano-convex lens are not cheap so in cheap laser modules we can not find it. Cheapest lens this type i can find in all website was 70-100€ but it can cost a lot more.
Laser cuting technology is very difficult, good results can not be achive with cheap setups.
Correct, and you don't need just a planar convection lens, but one that is made specifically for this approximately 5x1 ratio, and we still need to be able to focus it. Not worth the effort for a cheap laser like this. All in all, a cheap CO2 laser will be much cheaper.
@@3dPrintCreator Right but this methode you can focus beam into smal point only in focal length, so this is good enoughth for engraving, where depth of focus i relatively smal - maby 0.2mm.
When you have colimated and square shape beam u can focus it with lens with big focal point, maby 2", there you get a long and thin beam, good for cutting.
Most important problem is remove smoke or molted material form thin gap. If cuts id depper the gap must be wider so laser power density will drop. There is limit for small power laser system.
So just a hypothetical question here, if you know the depth of cut your laser makes in a single pass could you alter the z axis by that amount for each pass ? Would this give you a narrower kerf and allow a deeper cut ? Obviously you will still have a finite depth of cut because the lens can only get so close to the top of the material, but in theory you could either raise the bed of the laser or lower the diode head itself on each pass
Not really,
As the focal point is the only point where there is real energy to burn the material, as you get deeper into the material, the V shaped beam will hit the surface of the material out of focus, so less energy is reaching the depth where you want to have the energy. Also, there is ashes and coal there where the laser has already burned, and there you would need airflow and even more laser power.
As a diode laser always works with a light beam with a focus, it will never be perfect for multi layer cutting with variable Z height. Therefore you will need a CO2 laser.
@@3dPrintCreator Oh I agree that CO2 lasers are much better, what I was saying is that by altering the z axis height you are altering the height in the material where the laser is focused, now I fully agree that this would only have a very limited effect and without blowing out the ash from previous cuts it's almost useless, but let us take the following example, lets say the laser head is 20mm above the work surface and in sharp focus and that it cuts 0.5mm deep per pass, let us also assume you have a directed air blast clearing the ash, the potentially with each pass you could lower the laser by 0.5mm and do another cut at optimum focus, the beam to the focus point is a V shape so your limit on depth will be the point at which the beam is wider than the slot it's cutting OR the point at which the air blast no longer clears the ash of the previous cut, I suspect economically it's not worth doing, you'd probably only gain a few mm extra depth of cut, but maybe as a modification even manually winding down the laser head using a head in a dovetail slot wound down by a calibrated screw thread it's perhaps the sort of thing a hobbyist could do, you'd need to pause the laser at the end of each pass in order to wind the head down, but for some people a few mm extra depth of cut might be all they need ?
I found this idea interesting enough to do some testing with my laser.
I tried many different things to optimize my airflow and focal point, yet the best result I got, gained not more than 0.9 millimeter more depth in soft balsawood, and even less in plywood.
Therefore, I decided not to make a video about this, but I wanted to let you know this result, because I liked the idea.
Thanks.
Thank you so much for video, it is very detailed. I need to cut wood veneer that its thickness is about 0.6-1 mm (marquetry). First, do you suggest diode laser usage for this purpose. And which power will be better, neje 7 watt and more passes or 40w maybe less passes. I am asking this because I checked data sheets and I saw that neje 7 has 0.01 focus diameter but 40 watt have 0.1 mm it is greater than 10 times, thank you so much, best
I don't have any experience with the 40Watt (or 30Watt) lasers yet, but knowing what is possible with the 15 and 20Watt versions, and comparing them to the 7 Watt machine, I would go for power in this particular case. As long as the cuts are good looking and nice, it's doesn't really matter how big the kerf is.
Thks, This cutting-depth problem could be corrected-for in software (?????).
?Doesn't Light-Burn or any software compensate for this problem?
It's a hardware problem, that can't be corrected in software. Only another lens for the laser can correct this.
If it cuts, then it will cut deep, you will need to keep the cutting point at focus and cut shoulders so the beam doesn't get attenuated. All manufacturing has its own quirks.
It's won't cut deep because after only a few millimeters, the beam is out of focus.
If only the machine had a moving Z axis, then it would be able to cut deep.
Very informative video. Thank you.
Better change the title to "why diode cutting precision deminishes with thicker materials"
Just a hobby user, no job involved.
I can see the layers in your 3D printed jumper 😳
Great video btw 👌 Subscribed 😀
great informative video. Thanks!
Do software exists, that can control an exstra motor. to control rotation of the laser. to keep the best angel of the laser beam all 360 degre around. would be pretty easy to 3d print a holder that can turn it the 180 degre needed.
Not that I know.
In the latest lasers, this is not an issue anymore. They generate a square beam.
Excellente video, this is an explaination that Atomstack does not understand. Thank you for an easy to follow explaination and an example. Can you post the lightburn file for your test piece? Thank you.
Thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately I don't have that file anymore. I made it specifically for this video. Sorry.
very good explanation, thanx 👍🏻
Your Welcome
Very interesting, thank you
Question, if you place a mirror at 45 degrees so the diodes focal point is at the mirror surface would the reflected light still show these properties
No, and at this time there are lasers that are made like that. Ortur has the Laser Master 2 Pro, that uses a laser like that, but also other brands now are doing this.
As a compromise, you can orient the laser at an angle of 45 degrees and the X and Y losses will be the same.
How does that workout when cutting a circular shape?
@@3dPrintCreatorNot really on the circumference. This works well with lines located on the X or Y axes, any oblique lines start to work worse due to the fact that the beam configuration is not a point and not a square, but a rectangle. And when the feed comes from the long side, the power applied to one point is less than when feeding from the short side.
@@Maksim_Luchikhin Sorry, but then you really misunderstood the explanation. In the X axis, the rectangular shape of the projection benefits the user because the slice is at its thinnest. In the Y axis, the user has the greatest disadvantage, because the cut is then at its thickest. All of course in relation to time, because the laser moves at a certain speed over the surface of the object to be engraved or cut.
So X is maximum profit, Y is minimum profit, and in the oblique lines, depending on the angle, it is somewhere in between.
So.. If it is a fixed laser. ( not adjustable) it is strongest at the surface of the item cut, due to using the measuring tool no matter the material.
So maybe on a thicker material i remove the shield and set the laser slightly deeper into the material??? Wouldnt that help cut deeper?
Is it not possible to have a second or third lense to refocus the lazer more into a straight line?
You are completely right here.
In fact, this is done with the new versions of lasers that are now hitting the market.
In my video about the Aufero laser, I explain that people can make their choice between 3 types of lasers, one of them being a Long Focus laser (LF) that uses multiple lenses to make a more compressed spot at a longer focal distance. With that laser, that has the same optical power as the laser in this video, the cut can be almost 3 times as deep.
@@3dPrintCreator
I will have to look that video up.
I would think that a larger focal would maybe be better for cutting as it would keep the two halves from being so close. But also not impede the laser as it digs deeper.
Whats your opinion on the neje 80w laser? Seems to be most powerful at 7.5w x 2laser =15w.
@@turboflush from what I have seen, the NeJe is really good, but they don't work with me, so it's not possible for me to test their lasers.
I don't know if they have the most powerful laser at the moment, I think the Skulpfun S9 is even more capable to cut thick materials.
My latest knowledge about NeJe is outdated as this was my very first laser I bought and I had many problems with that machine. They have improved a lot since I tested a NeJe machine, but I never had one after my first test.
Great idea thank you so much
Your Welcome
If it cuts perfectly in the x direction but not the y direction. Why not slow down any Y direction moves by 30% to give it more time to cut propperly?
One problem is that would distort the design. Let's say that you want to make a 10 mm cut at 45 degrees, at a speed of one 1 mm per second, so it will take 10 seconds to make that cut. The only way to do that would be to move the x and y directions the same amount in those 10 seconds. If you slow the movement in the y direction down by 30%, then the laser will cover 30% less distance on the y-axis than in de x-axis.
That means that, in those 10 seconds, the laser will have moved some distance in the x-axis, but only 0.7 times that distance in the y-axis, so you would not get a 45 degree angle. And if you tried to cut a 10 x 10 square, you would end up with a 10 x 7 rectangle, since the height will be reduced by 30%. So you can't arbitrarily slow down in only one of the directions, the "Cartesian mechanism" that the machine uses would distort the image.
But the real problem is that the laser doesn't cut better in the x direction than y direction. Best cutting effenciency is achieved when all the light is focused in the smallest possible dot right at the surface of the material. If it's not properly focused at that particular distance, the light is spread out (in this case in the shape of a square, because that's the shape of the light emitting semi-conductor inside, I think) but it's equally spread out in the x-axis as it is in the y-axis. So it "loses effenciency " at the "same rate" in both axes. Hope that makes sense.
@@SatumangoTheGreat I said slow down the movement, not move less. As in, increase the time between stepper motor pulses, not decrease the amount of stepper motor pulses.
@@andrewwatts1997 I know, but the direction the laser is going depends on the relative speeds of the two motors. If the y-axis moves at a certain speed and the speed on the x-axis is zero, the laser cuts a vertical line. If the x-axis moves at a certain speed, but the speed on the y-axis is zero, the laser cuts horizontally. If the x- and y-axis move at the same speed, the laser cuts diagonally at an angle of 45 degrees. If you slow the y-axis to half the speed of the x-axis, the laser cuts diagonally at an angle of 22.5 degrees.
That laser is going somewhere, cutting all the time. If you change the speed of that laser on one of the axes, it is going to veer off course.
What you could do is change both speeds at the same time, keeping the laser on its correct course but moving slower, thus giving it more time to burn trough the material. Or repeat the path of the laser several times, burning away a layer of the material at each pass. That is wat he is doing in the video btw.
I think your laser might have a problem. I had the same issue and I emailed them. We were back and forth with emails and tests. The outcome was that they will replace the laser.
Huh? How come you think there is a problem. This is how Diode lasers work, it works like it should.
@@3dPrintCreator well after I notice one side was cutting with a fine line and the other side had a broader cut which didn’t go through, just like yours. So I thought I wasn’t focusing it right, I did some research and I saw some people had the same issue. I emailed ortur and I had to run some tests they sent. I dunno, maybe I’m wrong and my problem is different 🤷🏽♂️🥺
OK BUT we have the new 2021 type of laser engravers like the Atomstack A5 Pro and the Banggood Sculpfun S6 pro (very similar machines) which have new optics so they call it Spot Compressed Laser and they promise that the light beam is square and smaller than before 0,23x0,23mm. I just ordered the Atomstack we will see :-)))
Let me know if it was good. I'm really interested in it, even if i have a 1390 150 watts CO2 machine, loooooooool :-)
@@ACNNOMOREBLUFF Hi sooo I got it about 4 days ago did not have too much time to play with it and I does not have air assist yet STILL it cuts 5mm plywood beautifully which is over my expectations with very minimal conusing.. it takes time no question about it but it cuts 5mm normal plywood. What it does not cut is anything which is over 10-12 mm but I still have to play with it.. I cuts foam like nothing but when I tried 20mm foam it only could go down about to the half of the material and it stopped even I gave it 50 runs the laser light just evaporates or something like that. I tried 16mm light wood and it cannot do that either.
So the max height of any material could be about 10-12mm and that is it. The square light beam is not really true it is probably better than before but it still cuts vertically better than horizontally.
I think it is a great machine for the minimal price it costs. I am about to make some bed of nails for it (from gluing pushpins to a plywood) because raising the material is very good for cutting, and I will make a box with ventilation ands also think about air support that helps a lot as others said... )
I hope I could help...
rockjano
@@bacsijancsi Yep, i confirm the air assist will change it fully. I have an old model with 15Kw blue beam laser, and i added the air assist a year ago. Now, it cuts up to 20 mm wood plates. So keep going ;-)
@@ACNNOMOREBLUFF Whoaaaa.. that is crazy :-) is it somehow blows the smoke out of the cutted material??? The 15Kw real cutting is something like 4 watt no??? Mine is theoretically 40W (really it is 20W) but that is the power consumption and the real power with mine is about 5-5,5 W which is still a far cray from any CO2 laser but a lot less hustle...
@@ACNNOMOREBLUFF One question how much constant air do you need??? A read something like 1 bar...
What is the thickest wood that you 15w laser diode would cut through. Thank you.
There is no answer to this question.
For a nice and clean cut, I would say 4mm. For a dirty hole in a piece of wood... maybe 5cm? Depending on the type of wood and when it catches fire.
Thks,
Request an update & cool accent
An update is in the making.
And Thanks, it's Dutch :-)
thanks :-)
Quite fascinating I have been well educated thanks for your insure. I wonder if a z axis and ,"not sure how to express it" but the head could turn to follow the direction of travel should surely make a big difference. I suppose this is hard or expensive to implement?
In fact it's not that expensive, yet it is very difficult. Every 3D-Printer has a Z axis with one, and sometimes, two motors for the height adjustment. The problem is that the first cut is the deepest as there is no ashes to block the light. After that, the next passes are less effective and also the KERF is getting in the way. Going deeper also means that the top of the material will be hit by a wider beam of light, therefore blocking the light. This means that less light will get to the correct focal point, and therefore it will be less effective.
Good review. I will bay a laser. The CO2 is very high price about 2000 to 3500 euro. The cheap form china have to many problems en not save. I looking now for a led laser they say whichs a new dessign better cut and smaller. I think for my not a probleem. What i will cut is paper and veneer 0,5 a0,6 mm. I hope jou now how cut it. Most is the problem black edge. What i now is better more power en faster cuts than an low power diode whits a slow cut. Onlu i con't find i move whit cutting veneer only one whits a co2 cutter of 4000 euro. I looking for the S6 of S9 lasercutter. Thank.
The S6 and S9 are very good machines. They have a very condensed spot, good for detailed cutting. I don't know what the settings are for cutting veneer, I have never done that.
Generally speaking, get a high power module for cutting, that always works best as you don't need to operate it at high power.
Cant you you just adjust the Z Axis height with each successive cut and accept that you will have a large Kerf..
No, unless you burn a V slot, so the kerf won't hit the sides of the material. Otherwise you won't get enough energy down to where you need it when going deeper.
I cut 3mm ply with 200mm per sec, speed 100% power, 3 passes with 0.3 mm z depth per pass. And cuts are 99% perfect.. That's with the sainsmart 5.5w laser
@@3dPrintCreator That's why I said accept a large Kerf.
@@nigelmorris4769 how do you adjust the z depth automatically?
@@psysxet I use lightburn. In settings enable z axis and then in the layer cut panel I put below number of passes I put 0.3 in z depth per pass
it cant cut thick stuff as its only 5 watts, try a better diode and 1 inch thick is no problem
At the time I made the video, 5 Watt was good. The other lasers were only 0.5 or 1.2 Watt optical out.
At this moment, I run up to 60Watt diode lasers, yet the more power they have, the more the KERF is important.
And that, my friend, was what the video is about. The kerf, not how thick it can cut.