The Problem With The Wakanda Battle - Avengers: Infinity War
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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Avengers: Infinity War did a ton of stuff right, but one thing I'm not sure about is the big battle in Wakanda. Marvel's biggest MCU film might be missing something...
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Oh and let me know what you think is going to happen in Avengers 4!
captainmidnight we need a Captain Midnight's cut of Avengers Infinity War
captainmidnight
You have the right to express your views, Criticize.
This is a great video I agree with you, so much missed potential!!! What you say VS this makes this seem braindead, like actually, your points are correct 100%
captainmidnight like ragnarok when hela came to asgard , right ?
really nice video, it would have changed the experience altogether👍
captainmidnight Your nitpicking on alot of small things in this video that aren't really important.
You wanna see bystanders reactions and shit who cares about that!? It's Infinity War!
The problem with foot soldiers really annoys me. It’s the same problem with the soldiers in Asgard. The fact that such an advanced species rely on a shield and a spear is quite disappointing
Well Norse always valued fighting... and those swords and shields are made from materials that are several times stronger than ours. And also culture... culture is important. Lets take Jedi... they use sabers because of culture
And in Avengers 1
@@andrejosue98 let's be real, they use them because it's more exciting, anything else is just ad hoc. If your culture insists on primitive methods, you will be destroyed
@@victorvelie3980 "If your culture insists on primitive methods, you will be destroyed"
Yes that is why many people still use knives.
Andre Moya But our main weapons in war aren’t knifes, they are guns
So...why did the Wakandan military defend so terribly? The enemy came from one clear, apparently anticipated direction, so why weren't any combat vehicles, tanks, planes or gun turrets used??? WHY WOULD THEY RESPOND TO AN ALIEN ARMY INVASION BY EMPLOYING A LARGE MASS OF FOOT SOLDIERS WITHOUT REAL RANGED WEAPONS??? Don't tell me they didn't have enough time to prepare - they had enough time to bring several thousand soldiers to the front line, so they should have enough time to roll up with more substantial and effective defenses too, especially with the supposed advances in tech Wakanda has.
because Wakanda is human level, meaning they worked to defend themselves from human threats. while their tech is good it no where near alien level. I was wondering why the main ship didn't pummel the shields from orbit, no human shielding can withstand a barrage from a more advanced alien weapon.
doesn't explain bad strategic choices???
Yeah, and what about the rhinos or whatever air defense they had left?
because its a movie and the Russo brothers wanted a large scale epic ground battle to take place. That entire Wakandan ground battle made no sense at all. If you have a very capable force shield that can be opened at any number of desired quadrants, and a fleet of weaponized hi tech air craft. why not open a barrier in the overhead section of the shield release several aircraft with War Machine and let them assault from the air. They could have wiped out that entire alien army without a singlr casualty. You would think with the military training of Captain America and Bucky, the Black widows espionage expertise, Bruce banners genius level intellect, and a sentient super computer in the Vision all partaking in this battle they could have strategized a better plan than boots on the ground.
All good points. If the rest of the movie wasn't so great I would have never forgiven this scene.
It was really a stupid and nonsensical action scene for it's own sake. Not at all well thought-out or crafted.
In my opinion, battle of titan was very good, if not better than this scene
Way better
It was indisputably a better than this. One of my favorite MCU fight sequences, in all honesty
Indisputable is a stretch cuz I’m sure someone out there could dispute it, but I really like it
Thanos vs Doctor Strange, though short, was the most comic book thing I've ever seen. Probably the best part of the battle.
Thanos vs iron man was incredible as well.
The titan battle was more than good. it was an action masterpiece imo. directed and filmed so well, and the stakes are high. the iron man vs thanos sequence alone is just fucking riveting, intense and brutal. and definitely mcu's very best, it's now tied with endgame's final battle.
I know I am being pedantic but the attack on Wakanda cannot accurately be described as a siege. A siege is playing the long game, restricting resources with a view to forcing surrender or at least weakening the opponent before conquest.
that is a siege tactic but not the definition of siege.
but it was more of a battle that a siege in any case
Unless you are talking about Herons, it is the definition.
@@NotFlappy12 You know Google exists where it literally states "a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling the surrender of those inside."
@@MrBlackCat63
And they were going to do just that, but BP has opened the door for them
You thought Hulk was going to fight Thanos in Wakanda
But it was I, BRUCE BANNER!
Takatora Toudou Is that a motherfucking Jojo's reference?
Thanos should have used ZA WARUDO to kill everyone. With the time stone, he could have.
NANI
Takatora Toudou I
Ore wa Banner da!
I would argue that the desperate moment came when they dropped the section of the shield to face off against the Alien Venoms. These things looked massive and something the Wakanda soldiers had never faced before. They actually looked nervous which wasn’t the case in Black Panther. It was sold even more to see Michonne (forget her name) state that they are willingly killing themselves trying to get through. The level of fear and disgust in the way she said this sold me that there were stakes in this battle.
Dragon Ball Black
That wasn't a desperate moment. That was the one time they actually had a strategic thought by funneling them in. Too bad theu didn't really make the best use of it.
Michonne is fine
Okoye*
Lone Wander what should they have done? I’ll defend it to some extent but I’m also curious because idk any good strategy for that position
Hear hear!
So much better than Soy Wars: The Last Manbaby.
I’d argue that the human element of Wakanda wasn’t included on purpose. The audience is supposed to assume the Avengers will win in the end for the twist to hit harder. The only point in the movie where you see any kind of human element at all is when it’s already too late
I agree so much with this. Also visually it’s not interesting. The lighting is flat and we don’t get much characterization of the Wakandan soldiers.
I wanted to see Wakandan soldiers duke it out with Outriders. I could barely see what was happening in the background and when I go back to watch it, I like to see how the Wakandan soldiers handle themselves. I feel terrible for the ones that got brutally beaten down
LimeTrip Cleary you haven't watch Lord of the Rings.
Agreed
they even have lines like "this will be the end of Wakanda" but no follow up to that line or any real weight to it.
Not to mention the fight itself was pretty crap, the shots were so close up so you couldn't make out any choreography between the wakandans and the outriders or even see Black Panther clawing them. Was just a mess imo
I liked the scene but I do still agree it was trying to be safe while going at somthing to large but hey it's better than if they used the comics kill everyone plan cause thanos winning would mean that deadpool would finaly get to fuck death lol
Daniel Wood
Not any real weight to it? They lost. Half of the remaining population including their king turned to dust.
The biggest issue with wakanda is that they have best tech but fight with swords and spears.
They are incapable of handling any modern army and yet show as if something very big in wakanda village.
So do Asgardians
The spears and shield would have worked better if they had stayed in the formations they arrived in. They immediately broke ranks and started individual fights.
the spears and shields had laser beams
Wakanda's a peaceful country. Modern weaponry were developed for large scale wars and mass slaughter. Wakandans don't fight large scale wars, they fight small hand to hand duels. They wouldn't have developed machineguns, because they didn't need a weapon to wipe out columns of soldiers, or mass cavalry charges. They didn't develop nuclear arms because they didn't ever need to wipe out half a city to end a conflict.
Does that make them less capable? No. Need be, they have the tech and resources to develop devastating weapons.
Yes, same thing in Ragnarok. When Hella is taking over Asgard, all the Asgard warriors try to take her down with just hand-held shields and swords. I think Hollywood just likes hand-to-hand combat scenes more than high-tech weaponry. lol
My main gripe with that scene was, why didn't T'Challa wait to open that small section of the dome? They could have had the perfect bottleneck where they could easily kill every outrider that came through. But instead, they open it allowing several of the creatures to pour through before the Wakandans charge at them. Just why?
YES EXACTLY. I was waiting for a Hannibal-level war strategy from such an advanced country, but this was just them being outsmarted.
The whole scene was ridiculous, not a single instance of Wakandan artillery or air power or anything an advanced army would have
@@victorvelie3980 there was, just more attention next time you watch the movie.
I don't think the two battles are comparable. In fact, I think they are opposites. Helms deep is hopeless until gandalf came and brought hope. Wakanda battle was suppose to feel safe and hopeful then thanos comes and take it all away.
Exactly. Helms Deep battle is the climax of the story, the main event at the end of the movie, where the protagonists fight for their lives against an unstoppable force (Saruman's army).
The Wakanda Battle is only a side of the final battle: Iron Man, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange and the Guardians of the Galaxy are fighting Thanos on Titan, and despite their best efforts, they lose against him and Strange gives him the Time Stone.
Rogers and the others are fighting to protect Vision, the whole battle is built in a way that we see these heroes working togheter (Cap with T'Challa, Black Widow with Okoye and Wanda, War Machine and Falcon) or have to find new ways to solve their problems because they are limited in some ways (Vision is wounded and Banner isn't able to become Hulk). The Black Order actually makes the situation difficoult until Thor arrives. That is a way to fool the audience, turning the whole situation in an other victory for the Avengers.
But then Thanos comes, with five Infinity Stones in his possesion.
This is actually a strong and well built narrative, to create emotions and convictions in order to surprise.
The heroes do their best, but despite that, they all lose against the Mad Titan.
I agree that these two battles had opposite goals. Helms Deep was a fight to survive. If Helms Deep fell, then there would be no one else to challenge Sauron. The battle at Wakanda was a race against the clock. Every single hero on that battlefield could have died, and they still would have won if Wanda was able to destroy the Mind Stone and deny Thanos his prize (disregarding what we know about the Time Stone since they didn't have that knowledge).
I disagree, imagine if Thor never showed up, would you still feel “safe and hopeful”? He runs a good parallel, in Wakanda the heroes were confident they could hold back the army but quickly come to realize they are being overwhelmed.
If Marvel would of capitalized the feeling you speak of that is portrayed in Helms deep (hopeless) then Thor’s entrance would of been more epic than how it was and show how powerful Thor truly is. The Wakanda battle could of easily been our first tease taste of the heroes losing (upon being saved by Thor), feel relieved they didn’t lose, then lose again when Thanos effortlessly gets the stone. That would of been one of hell of an emotional roller coaster that would of made the last scene much more impactful.
Thor coming wasn't the climax. It's the mid point, just like how the helms deep defense looked fine until the wall blown up.
The wakanda defense looked fine then it went downhill as they got overwhelmed and back up again when thor arrived and finally everything goes to shit when thanos comes. Helms deep is exactly opposite with things looking bad at the beginning but gets better when the elves came and the heroes actually fending off the enemies. Then it goes downhill when the wall blew up and finally back up when gandalf arrives with reinforcement.
Except they spent TIME to carefully build up how important Vision's stone is so you DO feel the stakes.
They were CLEARLY afraid of the giant spinning saws. They had to step it up a ton to overcome them.
Opening the forcefield WAS the gamble/twist and the plan DID fail.
Everything you're asking them to do, they've done, but you're saying it's not "visceral" enough.
Unless you want r-rated shots of players being dismembered by the creatures, which I'm on board for as well.
I agree. It seems like he wanted the Wakandan battle to be more graphic and that wasn’t even the intention of the battle. The Wakandan battle was literally a distraction to figure out a way to get to Vision and once Proxima had an opportunity to do so, she sent in Corvus Glaive for the kill. There were plenty of moments where they almost lost the battle
Antonio Brooks Agreed. I mean, the movie makes it pretty clear that they WERE going to lose the battle. If it wasn't for Thor showing up they'd be fucked.
John Startop I think the point trying to be made is that they could have wrote it better, everything that actually created tension was removed in a second, there was no real struggle. Didn't have to be gritty or dark but if they had those saws or those creatures over running our heros a little longer and then when all hope seems lost... Boom Thor shows up, it would have been better and I agree. The only part that made me feel tension was when Thanos actually got the stone
Cringe. exe If that's the only part you felt tension then you're just overly critical.
John Startop How am I being over critical? Just because im stating one part of an entire movie i wasn't that excited about doesn't make me over critical lol
Nah I like this battle a lot. Thor’s entrance gives me chills.
It’s no battle of the bastards though I get it.
Sadly, I totally agree with you. Amazing analysis as always.
CAPTAAAAAIN MIDNIGHT (best intro ever)
Rockbert more like:
CAPTAaaiiiinnnnnnnnnnmIDNIGHT
dude, it doesn't even matter, it's a 4-minute scene really when you really look at it. The Wakandan battle mostly composed of many smaller parts into a larger overarching action sequence. Thor's Entrance, Bucky and Rocket, Natasha and Wanda and Okoye vs Proxima, Vision getting well bullied by the black order, Hulkbuster vs Cull Obsidian, the whole focus wasn't the battle it was just smaller fights and the plot was moving. It wasn't even what you would call the big 3rd act sequence that was where Thanos was. This action sequence was just really a way to continue the story, have really nice character interactions. Those outriders were in it for a very short time.
Good video but I don’t know I always took as the heroes think they can outlast everything and that’s why the “war” don’t feel as deadly, even when thanos shows up the heroes still think they have under control and then the snap, going from “we got this” to “oh god” it’s very impactful.
the only complaint I've had with this film was that it seemed a bit unfair to risk the entire universe by keeping Vision alive for as long as possible. I know they did not have enough time to prepare or work an alternative, or full time to surgically remove the stone while killing a small portion of him like they wanted to; but by the time Thanos arrived, that could have been the time when the hardest decision had to be made. idk, its a small nit pick but I've enjoyed the film overall.
Jared cervantes nah that isn’t a complaint. Wanda loves Vision and in the MCU she is so shitty with her emotions. It makes sense, after losing her brother why would she want to kill the only person who loves her??? And nobody could of forced her to do it. It was all up to her.
The heroes on earth didn't really know the full threat of Thanos though, they only knew what banner had told them which I presume wasn't the full story. The heroes that knew the full scale of the threat were on Titan.
The people in earth were still confident after beating Ultron and Loki,they thought the Earth Mightiest Heroes could beat anything. But that isn't true.
Doesn't really matter, because Thanos already had the Time Stone.
Vision agrees with you. He asked multiple times to sacrifice himself for the universe. lol Maybe he should have just killed himself, then Wanda could've destroyed the stone without the feeling that she's killing Vision in the process. Maybe I'll submit that to CinemaSins lol. (For some reason CinemaSins is dragging its feet on this movie.)
The war felt small too in terms of size. Like, we're talking about cosmic forces. Bruce Banner even warned Tony that Thanos has the largest army in the universe. It bothered me that this ultimate battle was condensed into a small region on Earth. If it really was a huge army and superheroes defending the Earth, I would've expected a lot more to come at Earth than just a Wakanda-localized army.
I think vision was much more disappointing. The character was never really used, IW didnt give me enough time to really buy into the relationship between Scarlet Witch and Vision and Vision didnt get a fight scene that really shows what he can do. I hoped for a fight where he will go all out, but all that happens is that hes stabbed and thats it. From then on he cant really fight and we dont see what he can do.
Ringo Doom hmm true vision disnt do much in the movie
Because hes outmatched and running for his life
I think I kinda agree and kinda disagree with you. I agree that Caps teams segments were somewhat weaker. The important thematic twists happen outside the battle (we don't trade lives for lives), and the big battle is just playing that choice out.
I think it could have been improved, but for me it didn't feel like the ball was dropped. When those circle saw things came, the heroes seemed genuinely powerless against them and T'challa gave the order to fall back. And they had a massive impact on the battlefield: sure, Wanda defeated them easily, but it came at the cost of leaving Vision defenseless, and the whole point of the battle was to protect him. And when Avengers were being overwhelmed, the scene managed to sell it to me. Though I agree that character death would have made it even more convincing (but who? Bucky?). In battle for Helms deep, all the enemies are essentially the same. Here we have also the black order, who pose a genuine threath to our heroes, which brings more variety to the battle.
So, though I also think it could have been even better, I think it was already quite good the way it was. Having civilians there would have raised the stakes, but 1) the outsiders were not interested in them in the first place, they were going for the Vision so single mindedly that they were killing themselves 2) why would anyone live so close to the border and the forcefield? It is clearly a prepared killing ground, not meant against aliens but colonial powers. Bringing civilians into the battle would be weird, except if the enemy managed to bring the battle to the city where Vision was. Maybe that could have been a thing?
The Two Towers did have a hell of a battle. I might add that another worthy model would be several of the large-scale battles in the Clone Wars animated series. Even the introductory movie gives you a real sense of the strategies of both sides, and how each depend on the movie parts to achieve their goals. Another excellent example of well-depicted battles is the General Krell story arc, where explaining and showing battlefield tactics (especially in the first two episodes of the four-episode arc) is integral to the plot.
The black order breaks the barrier and forces come from all sides, wakandan forces get killed, wakandan civilians are scared, the saws come, wakandan armies are scared.
Basically more focus on wakanda
The lack of immigrant soundtrack when thor appears. ))):
FINALLY. Someone calls something out! It's the best MCU movie in my opinion, but too many people have been acting like it's perfection. I thought the third act of the movie was the weakest and that the movie had some plot pacing issues.
Oscar Wilde Thank you, I think with time,Once people have calm down more people will see the plot holes. No movie is without sins.
I agree
I also really dislike how tonally inconsistent this movie is
Looking back this scene is miles better than the last battle in endgame. I mean this one had many different people fighting with various styles and everyone gets enough screen time to fight. What I'm saying is that it is a big battle but broken down in smaller scale. While the final battle in endgame was just a gigantic CGI fuckfest. For most of it we couldn't even tell what exactly was happening
I get what you mean. But I think that since they have already lost all the stones and the mind stone in visions head is the last one that thanos needs, that is what builds the suspense, like this is their last hope. And when Corvus Glaive is still alive and has snuck in to where vision is that is the twist.
One thing they should've done is make the wakandans have some unified armor in a bright color because sometimes it just looked like people all over the place fighting something and you couldn't make out what was what
Interesting video, but I don't agree when you say that 7:28 "maybe the plan could fail and when it seems that all hope is lost, that's when Thor shows up"
Marvel has made a great effort to make every character's contribution important, even Hawkeye and Black Widow vs a goddamn alien army (which is utterly ridiculous), but then again they pull it off somehow. If you have Thor showing up to save the day, you're basically implying that he's more powerful than ALL of the others together, making the team and central theme pointless. Civil War was important for that reason; they succeed together. Otherwise, when the next threat comes, just send Thor and stay home.
That was one of the problems of Justice League (among countless others); Superman was way too OP compared to the other characters. This lessens the team's importance to work.
I freaking loved this part of the film
It would have been a complete ass kicking if not for KillMonger wasting Wakandas forces ;)
I feel like taking down the barrier was a bad move, even with the reasons they give.
For one, the barrier was already killing a good 90% of the aliens just be being there, it was quite literally the best defense they had. Plus, it just took about the 2 front rows of warriors shooting to easily stop them. Couldn't they just have spread out and covered all sides instead of opening the barrier? After all, the civilians had evacuated. All they needed to do was defend one guy. Maybe the city would have been trashed if they retreated far back enough to cover all sides with their numbers, but is property damage really a problem when the lives of half the universe is at stake?
Also, you're telling me the only defense you have is a barrier? No turrets, no inner walls, nothing? You just projected a giant vibranium-laser wall around your city that didn't even go an inch below ground and said 'This is all the defense we'll ever need'?
Allen L no way was it killing 90%...
My thoughts as well, form a big circle with Vision in the middle (although I guess this is impossible since they were working on him). But if they were not able to move Vision, why not just send soldiers to guard him?
The whole scene was just a bunch of dumb, unrealistic moves and tactics so that the armies could fight hand to hand. Pure cinematic ad hoc
Honestly I never even thought about the civilians not being in Wakanda and how that would create the anxiety needed in that part of the movie. That something that I remember feeling at the Helm's Deep part of The Two Towers that I didn't really feel in Infinity War.
Captain Midnight posted a new video. Today's a good day.
Where were the military’s of the world while this battle happened!
It felt like the battle of naboo to me, rolling green hills, blue energy shields everywhere, aliens etc.
Also, it bugged me that the character spotlight was too focused, unless thor is onscreen killing things you won't see his lighting arcing in the background ever, same for all the other characters.
It’s possible that you don’t have a moment when it gets really down in the battle because the whole thing was going to be a loss generally. It’s them just fighting an unstoppable force as long as they can before they get stomped into the ground. Just the thought about why it feels like the battle doesn’t have rise and fall moment because you’re interposing the battle on the planet and watching loss after loss.
Anybody see that final battle scene in The Mummy Returns? The Wakanda battle really reminds me of that. Just a massive horde of enemies to be fought, with no real reason to be fighting, so it just feels forced. Execpt in the Mummy Returns, the main characters are actually doing something whole the battle is being fought, so it feels more realistic that the Wakanda one.
I believe they could have made it better by having most(but not all) of the main characters be hunting down and fighting the Black Hand directly, as the battles rages on around them. It would give a clearer objective and add more suspense, because they're trying to keep all the members of the Black Hand busy, but they're needed at the battle. Stress how little time they have, instead of just throwing the two armies together and watching them duke it out
I think the problem of comparing the battles is not the tone, but the part the battles play in the movie, I feel that the wakkanda battle is the part of the bigger final battle than complete by itself
The thing that they could improve on is the excitement on the battlefield. It is Wakanda, show us some emotion links between the king, the leaders and the soldiers.
The problem with the Wakanda battle...
...was solved the moment Thor showed up.
Lord of The Rings is mostly Peter Jackson's vision. There's a lot of pieces coming together in Infinity War. I think the Russo's did a fantastic job blending several director's styles together. I'll tell you this, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Trying to fit 10 years worth of movies together must have been a difficult feat. Can't wait for part 2!!!!
what is the music at 5:50, please someone tell me i'm dying to hear it.
shubham tiwari well Thanos can fix that problem for you
His final comment on “let’s hope it gets fixed for Avengers 4” is funny considering the final battle of Endgame being the gigantic evil army giving the good guys a solid 3 minutes to get lined up to fight.
Question: When the battle begins and the heroes start running towards the enemies Cap and Black Panther are faster than everybody else. But shouldn't Bucky be faster as well? In Civil War all 3 of them run through the tunnel and are clearly faster then the traffic around them.
Good critique. Actually, it would have been cooler, I think, if Wankandan city was destroyed by those saws first. This would have shown how dangerous those weapons were and also would have further taken away the sense that anyplace was safe for the defenders.
The fall of Wakanda at the beginning of that battle would have made that scene even more epic.
In the last stretch of the movie the hero’s didn’t need the battle to be more serious. Because I think that because this battle was just a “bump in the road” it makes the ultimate failure so much more devastating.
Black Panther doesn’t take place a week before Infinity War.
James Lawner right!!!! But I believe black panther becoming king happen a week after Civil War thou
James Lawner I heard Infinity War was 3 years after Civil War so T’achalla has been king for a LOOOOOOOOONG time
James Lawner no he was just saying that last week they were having a normal life not that black panther took place a week before infinity war
That's not what he meant. He was just pointing out how rapidly the battle arrived at their borders
Everything about the siege was explained and justified.
The Children test the shields first with the giant ship that slammed into it, and then with the wall of Outriders. It's explained that the shields won't hold them off and that they're moving to another portion of the shield that Wakanda can't defend. So T'challa opens the portion that they are at to keep them from pushing through somewhere else.
Bruce, in the Hulkbuster, and BP are the only characters present that can be swarmed and not immediately die, and Cap but I'll assume he was swarmed for like 1 second before he was saved, so Bruce was given the "There's too many" line. Everyone except Falcon(flying), War Machine(flying and heavy ordinance), and HB Bruce(Hulkbuster) has to fight one on one. In comes Thor with his fancy new axe that shoots lighting.
The saw blades come out and the only characters that can do anything to them are disposed, Vision on the table and Wanda as the last line of defense, Thor either doesn't care or something(I dunno). Wanda takes the bait and leaves Vision to save her friends. 5:07 because they did, I think it was Okoye who looked frightened when they showed up. Glaive was waiting for her to leave and attacks Vision. Vision flees and Cap tries to save him but is then saved by Vision, then Cap calls the Avengers to his position, Thor doesn't have an earpiece so he gets there too late. Thanos warps in and takes the final stone and wins.
I agree, I think the reason that the heroes should be overwhelmed should be because a hero is severely injured or even killed. Personally, I feel that the hero should have been cap. I think that the outriders could see him as a huge threat, and we see a sequence where they tear him to shreds. They slash his leg, his arm, his chest, and his face. Cap is on the ground and everyone is distracted. Through this distraction, everyone is falling. Banner tries to help but gets overwhelmed, Black Panther is dealing with Cull Obsidian, etc. everyone is overwhelmed and at their lowest in the fight (before thanos shows up) and I think (to properly show this) have a shot of some outriders going towards the UNEVACUATED wakanda. Then, boom. Thor shows up
The point of the battle of wakanda was to show how woefully underprepared the avengers were when getting ready to fight thanos. This is mirrored in end game, where thanos goes in blind and rushing, and gets defeated as well.
Stop with those cuts with those old movie clips. It’s weird.
I understand some of your points and complains, but there's just some things you got wrong... (sorry, English is not my first language)
1: I also would like to see the civilians in fear when Wakanda is attacked, but leaving them it's too risky and not something a King like T'challa would allow. If you want to protect your city and your people, you need to get them out of the fight. Some buildings may be destroyed, but any inocent lives were taken. It would have been a very bad decision if T'challa just leave the people out in the "open". And it's not like the Black Order is going to send one of their ships just to kill the people, it's not their goal here. And even if their didn't had time to prepare (which wouldn't have much sense because the shield keeping Wakanda hidden is VERY far away and the Outriders can only land outside the shield) they would STILL try to evacuate, because that's very important, leaving to fight to the heroes (and the heroes don't evacute the people themselfs, they go to battle almost instantly).
2: I agree that the big saw things were misused in the movie (and the point of view of the Wakanda warroirs), the point that you make that the orcs in The Two Towers were more terrifing than the Outriders is true because the Black Order is not trying to be terrifing, they have one objective, distract the more powerfull Avengers and their army, so Corvus Glaive can get the stone without them seeing it. Remember what Ebony Maw always say, that now your lives matter and because of your sacrifice, you're the children of Thanos. If they wanted to cause fear, he would just say something like "Give us the stone or we'll kill you, and if we don't, Thanos will".
3: I agree (as a movie lover) that the dome falling would be a very great moment, but it wouldn't make sense. If they didn't opened the done, the Outriders would just get to Vision on the other side. We also see that when the Black Order arrives, the first ship gets destroyed by hitting the dome, and it doesn't seem to get any damage from it, so it's not a doom that falls very easy, it would probabily take all ship they have to actually break it. And even if the dome did fall during the battle, the Black Order would likely try to do a type of "Orbital Bombardment" on the Avengers (which they tried to do with the first ship), since they are in a open field and the ships falls really fast .
4: One last thing, the Avengers plan is to give time to Shuri, so she can take the mind stone out of Visions head, not just go there and fight, they are fighting to give them time and to not let the Outriders get close to Vision. They are using everything they have, and they don't have many options. It's a plane field with the enemies on your front and kind of on the lower part of the field, and they have a bunch of warriors with close-range weapons (most of them), some air-suport, 2 guys that fly and the Hulkbuster. They have kind of a tactic, shield guys in the front and everyone that have long-range weapons shoot the Outriders. Just after they open the shield, they charge on them.
I just think that you were thinking to much on a "movie perspective" and not to much on a "In-Universe perspective", but besides that, I agree with your other points.
And on top of that where are those fighter aircrafts they used in black panther movie ?
Agree totally. The Wakanda CGI mega-brawl was pointless. They should have stayed in New York and made it more like a chase movie. It would have been great to find Cap hiding with Vision in Queens and running into the Punisher! What a team-up!!
A problem for me was that Wakanda, the most advanced civilisation on earth had no artillery cannons, or turrets or anything like that.
They just had warriors.
But then maybe the battle would’ve been too easy. I dunno... but you make good points, the battle certainly could’ve been structured better. Great video!
No air support and no overwatch is asking to lose! Doesn’t Wakanda have Snipers and attack aircraft!
True there doesn't seem to much in the way of sensibility within the battle but I do think I know where they were going. It's almost like a bland unimportant piece framing the emotional and epic scenes at Titan and final struggle vs. Thanos, highlighting them.
Two real issues with it. For one, the Russos didn't know what was going to be in Black Panther in terms of Wakanda and its tech, just knew about the shield and a few characters surrounding T'challa, so there was some lack of the consistency and continuity which MCU has (mostly) managed well (Hulk movie is really the only one that doesn't fit well in that sense). They could have achieved more connection to Cap and the other heroes there with a couple of well-written scenes of them interacting with each other in Wakanda before the enemies started showing up. Most of that time was spent focusing on Shuri having ideas for how to help Vision. So yeah, I can see how a more close-to-perfect version of the movie could have been made with giving that cast of characters a bit more time onscreen before the final battle.
5:18
Not only is Proxima Midnight killed. SHE IS TORN APART BY THE SCARLET WITCH!! If you watch the it and go through it frame by frame. You can see her get ripped apart. Also, she is torn apart before she hits those saw things. You can see the red glow around her as she splits apart. Look the clip up on TH-cam, and it's quite obvious she is torn apart.
I'm agree with you. The movie probably feel more devastated and heart felt. But I understand why they doing it like this since it's more fit to overall MCU theme.
Making thing a lot darker tone probably out of characteristic for them by now which is sad. I like dark movie :(
I have a feeling that the whole Wakanda battle was supposed to be longer. Interested to see if there's a lot of deleted scenes or even an extended cut. No Infinity War was the darkest tone movie Marvel has ever produced you can definitely compare it and Two Tower
The real problem with the Wakanda battle is that Cap says they don't trade lives yet he's willing to trade numerous Wakandan lives for Vision's.
I agree
I like the fight titan more, u know with
Stark, starlord, Spider-Man etc.
Except when starlord does...U KNOW WHAT
It was completely idiotic, but in character for him
I could not agree more. Filming an all out war is an artform in its own right. They did just a tad bit better in Endgame but they did drop the ball.
What a great video dude 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Dude you nailed it.. i feel like they belittled Cap and Black Panther so Thor could come in.. just make thor better.. i couldnt really believe that Cap and BP were over run..it didnt feel right for me.
YIBAMBE!
HARAMBE!
YOUR MUM GAY!
They had to switch back and forth between Titan and Wakanda. How would they have time to do all that?
You ask for too much. You wanted a movie that would have been too long.
I agree with this. As I watched the battle, I thought there would be scenes of some of the warriors or heroes going down.
The problem with his wall comparison is that in lord of the rings the wall has a top and archers but in wakanda the wall doesn't have a top so if they had the wall break later in the fight they would have nothing to do before then
The scene was oddly similar to the battle of naboo in the phantom menace
That's a really nice and insightful video, though I think the comparison is unfair.
Helm's Deep Battle was the moment the whole movie led up to. It is the pinnacle of the movie, where everything is at stake.
Wakanda Battle is basically a side gig. It is just a way to keep everyone still on Earth occupied while the real battle takes place on Titan, with Iron Man and co fighting Thanos. If the Wakanda battle had more tension to it, I think it would have taken away from the tension of the Titan battle. And this is why the stakes in the Wakanda Battle rise as soon as Thanos arrives: he is the real center of the story, and the Wakanda Battle gets interesting when HE gets involved in it. The other solution would have been to have him win the battle on Titan then attack Wakanda with his army, but it would have wrecked the whole rythm of the movie as you'd basically have a buildup, a climax then another buildup and climax.
Exactly how long did you want this movie to run? By making the fight scene as detailed as you wanted would add another 20 minutes or so
Wasn't there a Captain Midnight who took over a cable channels satellite signal in the 80's?
I really feel like deleting the Nova Corps battle, the Collector fight, and Nebula was a mistake. They needed 2 movies to show this story right. But that's just me.
My biggest gripe is the fact that they keep trying to establish "we don't trade lives" and then putting hundreds of Wakandan lives on the line for one, while awesome, still a single superhero Vision. Their lives are essentially traded for his. Awkward and never addressed.
Eh, to be honest, while I agree with what you're saying, it may have deviated the focus a bit, and I found the fact they were prepared refreshing. Sort of a handful of hopeful moments before things literally went to hell, and I think when they started getting overridden was more than enough. But it's all about the timing and pacing, although I admit focusing on the Wakandan soldiers would have fit in the theme of 'the value of life', but again, deviating where the focus would be at the time.
My only real complaint was the short time Thanos showed up, and wished he had more time to actually take them out more creatively than just throwing them around, but I can forgive that just for the sheer style they handled that sequence in. I don't know. I felt the Wakandan battle served its purpose, and I honestly saw it as a bit of a break from all the heaviness that's going on in space, giving the audience some room to breathe to have that shed of hope still there, and to me didn't need to be too big of a focus. But that's just my taste.
thing that super bothered me: when they had thanos locked down and were focusing on pulling off the glove instead of, idk, slitting his throat, shooting his head off...just any kind of murder. like seriously, they never establish that they have an issue killing him so like...do it.
I think it was perfect. The reason why the newest Star Wars sucks was because we don’t learn shit from the villain (snoke) and he just dies. But this movie focusing on him is amazing so we learn more about him and see his true power and which does make less time for the wakanda battle but it ended up great in my opinion
You say you are disappointed that the battle up until Thanos arives seems like a bump in the road, well I think that for the MOST technically advanced society with the most powerful heros earth has to offer all fighting together with a home field advantage where the enemy is being funneled thru a small entrance this should at MOST be a bump in the road...
Take a shot every time he says "and that's basically it"
I disagree on the dome part. Opening the small slice of the dome is like the narrow bridge and it gives you a feeling of Black Panther keeping control over the situation. Later though when you think they have everything under control the black order digs under the dooms edge and breaks through completely. Just like when the wall was blown up. At this point it seems like Wakanda is loosing. I think after this is when Thor and Scarlet Witch should up on the field. This would be like when Helms deep got reinforcements. The battles from both movies follow pretty much the same structure of up and down. The 2 differences are, 1) Helms deep shows the steaks better in the sense of the civilians, 2) In the end Wakanda lost.
True even I thought the battle of wakanda and battle of titan were a bit short compared to the first 2 movies
I agree with this video so much. The Wakanda Battle could have been handled better, but I think one thing that came out of all these faults is that the ending hit even harder. In the process of us not really feeling the consequences should they fail to defeat Thanos/the army, suddenly SPOILER watching half of the world turning into dust hit that much harder, because I'm sure a lot of people (me included, ha, I was so naive and innocent) had this belief in the back of our minds that "ah it's the Avengers, no matter how bad things get, they'll always win in the end" but then NOPE
I think the point was to show that Thanos is the power in the movie. HE is the threat. His army is just a means of picking off the weak or acting as a distraction from what really matters. The battle wasn't supposed to feel like it had big stakes until Thanos shows up. It was supposed to be a big brawl that wore down the heroes, and took out some of the extra power, so things would be easier for the big purple guy when he came to claim the Mind Stone.
Also, I think adding weight to that battle would have lessened the blow of Thanos' victory. Think about it. We saw a big comic book battle. It wasn't heavy. It was just a fun, albeit typical battle for these characters. Then Thanos shows up, wins, and then the weight drops. These guys are USED To just having these kinds of fights. They're USED to battling armies of aliens, robots, etc...It's just another day in the life for them. The stakes aren't SUPPOSED to feel too bad. They may even be a little cocky because of that. When they lose and everyone starts to fade to ash, the weight of the situation would have been decreased by making this battle seem less routine and fun. I think they ABSOLUTELY made the right choice.
My problem with the scene was the idea of sending people with spears against an invading alien army, while half of all life in the universe was on the line. I think a dozen trucks with .50 cals, some mortars, and an A-10 would have quickly and easily ended that fight. But it's a superhero movie, so punching is somehow more effective, I guess.
The point of that fight being so in their favor was because they lost. It's suppose to make the deaths of all the hero's and warriors once they lose have that much more an impact
The problem with asking for all that is the fact that you're asking for a 4 hour movie
I think my biggest gripe was how uncreative the action was in this scene, and that has to do with a few things in my opinion. One is the characters involved, they all had kind of boring powers. I mean, who's in the fight? Captain America, and Black Panther - two heroes who basically just have heightened ability at strength etc - Falcon - who can fly and shoot - Bruce in the Hulkbuster - an uninteresting, fairly small robot which barely does anything in the fight. Later on you get Scarlet Witch, and Thor, which is where it kind of picked up, because now you have some more interesting powers being used. Before they join in though, it's mostly just the more boring powered heroes. Contrast this with the fight between Iron Man, Spiderman, Doctor Strange, half of the Guardians of the Galaxy, and Thanos. In that fight you have powers being interwoven and used in cool ways. Another thing that fight did well was keeping the action clearer than in Wakanda. For most of the Wakanda battle, it's just a visual mush.
As much as I love Thor's arrival in Wakanda, the Titan battle is more intense and great. Just like the vid said, there must be a rising and falling action. Titan has the best rising action. The intensity when Peter Quill realize Gamora is dead and Tony getting stab are great.
I think having more suspense in the battle might have taken away from Thanos' arrival, by contrast. Too much of a climax before the climax. The point was that, even though they were fighting valiantly and headed towards victory, it was all for naught, they were just passing time until Big T arrived and took what he wanted. It highlighted how he was so much more powerful than anything they had ever faced. Thanos' first words in the film, played out in the climax. Maybe a different battle would have worked, but the film had a great rhythm and I assume they played with some different things and made the best choice for the story as a whole. Cheers
They shot infinity war right after Black Panther was done filming they clearly didn’t think BP would become so popular, so they gave him a major minor role.
I personally think the Wakanda battle could be executed better.
The Titan battle was good but I like seeing the Wakanda and team cap fighting side by side
What was flawed about this final battle, or even the whole movie, is that most of the characters are underpowered. They can't even fit the hulk in this movie. There is just too less space to show how powerful everyone is. That's why, before I watched the movie, I wanted it to be at least five hours long. Because two of my favorite marvel characters got very little screen time.
I agree with allot of what this guy says but allot of what's great from the Two Towers is the reason it's been an iconic piece of literature for so long. Give credit to J.R. Tolkien but, these ARE the things that could be corrected in the storyboard area
agreed. But the fight with Thanos on Titan was truly amazing!
Wakandans: have ranged weapons and shield walls capable of fending off demon guys
*drops shield wall
*charges
*all die
Alright
Did even watch the movie?
I rise in defense of Infinity War. 1) This is the only army battle. New York, Edinburgh, Knowhere, etc they are all superhero smackdowns. Good guys with powers fighting bad guys with powers. This is the one that is not like the others. 2) Helms Deep was P. Jackson's jam. In the book, the battle is less described than most other elements. Giving Jackson the room and freedom to do as much as he likes. You see that in other parts of LOTR like the flight from the Balrog or the Battle of Five Armies.
This is comparing someone's worst element to someone's best. Not exactly unfair, but kinda lopsided. If you want to see a RL example of this ask five fans who's the best at football, basketball and especially baseball. You'll see tons of arguments to include someone inspite of sucking at a critical skill in the game.
Watched a few of you videos. You earn my sub and like. Keep up the good work
It's EXACTLY the plot of Helms Deep lol well spotted. I also felt that this sequence lacked emotional depth but I could never organize my thoughts as well as you did.
I think what your missing and the reason I don't agree with your input entirely is the whole movie is about being unprepared. From the beginning with thanos taking down the Asgardians to the final battle. The avengers were still divided and had an significantly difficult time getting reunited and had to act fast. Everything you see in this movie displays that. The hulk didn't want to hulk out, Captain America and Ironman weent even fighting with each other due to bieng in separate areas of the war, Dr strange, Spiderman, Ironman, and the guardians of the Galaxy had just met so none of them new how to fight with each other, scarlet witch only cared about protecting vision as she should've been, but vision should have been fighting, all of these elements create a chaotic, unprepared, and messy response from the avengers. The black order attacked swiftly and knew how to get what they needed. So it wasn't really a good comparison between infinity war and helms deep. Also their was Intel on what was coming yo helms deep from legolas, Aaragorn, and gimli. They found out that helms deep would be attacked. Not to mention it was a fortress. Wakanda had a meisly shield/barrier that eventually would have been taken down. I do agree with dividing up forces but because they had no idea what to expect ofcourse the battle was flawed. That's how thanks would win