Alright video, but there's quite a bit of misconceptions and omissions about AoCF that should've also been addressed. - Yes, it does have a pushblock system, but it's not as much of a free defensive tool as you think. There's quite a few ways to get around it to deal with push block since it does INCREASE hitstun on attacks, so you can't interact out of it as quickly (like jumping out) - You also cannot tech grabs AT ALL while barrier is up, so if you predict that they're going to try to push block, you can grab them which will not only break their push block, but gets rid of a SIGNIFICANT about of recoverable white health, which is a big deal. - On the other side, there's different kinds of pushblocking, which does cause certain factors/properties to it. There are timed push blocks as well that forces more interactive for the defensive player to get out, but it is a bit risky since it requires timing the press while holding no direction (if you try to press 4 while pressing D you will dash instead, which can easily be knocked) - The stuff above is more nitpicky, but it needs MORE explanation into the slave system, because that also brings in a whole slew of other options in defense, but also higher risk (you can get guard crushed as the slave bar acts like a guard gauge now, you lose safe escape options if your bar goes below 50%, etc) - Adding to the above point, this game has almost true hard knockdowns, which isn't present in touhou fighters before Hopeless Masquerade (and isn't locked behind a weather system). I say ALMOST true because you can use tag tech rolls (requires 50% slave meter) to roll out despite being in HKD. It is a bit too easy to get this but it DOES have it's own concerns. - The big reason why rollback doesn't exist for AoCF right now is because the engine is COMPLETELY different from Soku, and uses an engine that isn't known to work with GGPO at all, and it's hard to decompile and figure out how to incorporate rollback still. It's still a work in progress but it's frustrating that they're using a very niche language (Squirrel) on this game. There's quite a few other things to mention, but I think this video could've gotten more points across as to what AoCF has because it kinda comes off as saying AoCF is "too simple" when it does have a lot more than shown on surface level. (I forgot to bring up that most people didn't play floaters in the end because of how it "feels" without a ground and it isn't "traditional", but I think that's important too). I do absolutely agree the game is not perfect and has issues, and still gives too much power to defense, but it's not as straightforward as it seems and it DOES require interactivity, just that it gives more power to defense than it does to offense which is absolutely the developer's intention, because based on past patches and balancing, Unabara definitely doesn't want another Soku lol.
Melee is no more unbalanaced than other fighters of its era. A lot of non-Melee players like to say that it's just six or so usabke characters, but over half the roster has seen tournament success
Very great video, I'd also like to add something to avoid confusion: Soku's rollback netcode is not GGPO, but something made by Fireseal (SokuRoll) who unfortunately lost the code when their hard drive burned. The issue is that even though people are trying to look into it, it's difficult to improve the current state of the netcode (which is a bit worse than GGPO) without knowing how it's been made. Game's still playable cross-continent with enough delay/rollback.
I like more soku because: -It has Patchouli -You can create your loadout with the card system, it's quite interesting -it has Patchouli I love the pixel art of AoCF, it's amazing, but the most important part is that is available on console... besides that, I don't quite like the possesion system and the aerial battles
I'd also argue that Soku's defensive moments feel more like a dance where both players are constantly trying to weave in and out of the other's threatened zone and find good ranges and opportunities to actually lay down offense, so the defense is enjoyable to watch 'cause it feels like there's a constant risk involved. But don't listen to me, I'm just a Sakuya scrub
There is more to it then that. Good netcode isn't the silver bullet. I feel like it's more that it's a bit too far of a departure off traditional fighting norms that, combined with a lot of the simplifying compared to Soku, turns off your average FGC person. Meanwhile the game's weirdness will turn off the vast majority of casual players so the only people picking the game up are strictly only touhou fans. Let me put it this way. I managed to convince 3 people to play Soku who have never played or heard of touhou before and they actually enjoyed it, with several peeps continuing to keep playing! Meanwhile, the only reaction i got to AOCF is 'the fuck is this game?' and not in a good way.
You missed something important. Story mode in Hstn is much better because it is made with something different than basic arcade-story, including arenas, action, and conversations(secret enemy also). Most new players go to story first. Me myself played local country competitions of Hstn\SWR back in 12-13-14. Got to quarter finals at most. Organizer of that also hosted DOTS competitions.
honestly, I think that Hstn's story loses just because it only has 3 characters available... at least I can play just about any character in AOCF's, even if I have to unlock it first.
I actually started with Scarlet Weather Rhapsody. Not only was it my first Touhou game, but it was also my first Fighting Game. Touhou actually introduced me to the FGC.
SOKU is fairly a better game than AOCF, Gameplay vs Gameplay. Deepness is the clue here. Even If both had rollback netcode and the same mods, SOKU will still the most played one. I can't deny that there would be more people playing AOCF, because it is not a bad game at al..
AoCF seems like a fighting game that doesn't want you to fight, defeating the entire purpose of what it's trying to be. Also, no rollback netcode is awful. There's multiple ways to improve it to actually be tempting to play. A shame, really.
To be fair, I think the internet t is to more closely simulate a danmakai battle in a fighting game style which if that's the case it certainly looks the part
good video, not a fighting game person but ive always been curious abt them. but isnt utsuho from the 2nd windows era? ive always seen people say the first windows era was 6-9.5, then ZUN switched game engines or smthn
As someone who has played a number of different fighting games I have been intrested in the Touhou FGs and Touhou in general for a while now. I believe that fighting games need to have stronger offensive systems then defensive ones to work, so as soon as you started talking about how strong the defensive mechanics in these games are I knew something was wrong. I will probably still get AoCF to play as a single player experience and maybe play a couple matches with some friends, but if I decide to stick with a touhou game long term it will have to be Soku.
I'd play Soku instead of AoCF since it has more of my fav characters but I absolutely suck at fighting games, especially remembering combos and stuff so AoCF is a lot more enjoyable as the combos are simpler and the game holds your hand way more
Personally I would always stick to Soku for the reasons mention in the video, mainly because of popularity and their game system in general. I wouldn’t play a game if the ground isn’t like traditional games are, it just feels weird. The obly character that I like in AoFC is Ichirin and Mokou and pretty much thats it. AoFC really for competitive just like Soku is?
Weirdly enough I never really liked this game even though I was absolutely fine with Hopeless Masquerade. (Which is weird because I mained Koishi in HM and Mokou in AoCF and I can say in confidence one was far less of a headache than the other.)
I can imagine AoCF Koishi being a meme because of her whole 'teleports behind you nothing personel kid' gimick. It's really funny tbh and i wish i could play with somebody online to do that to them
I have always been a casual and have always sucked at fighting games. So speaking with the mouth of someone who never went far with the modding and various tools around the game, which is the situation that you *should* consider being the case to welcome potential new players and/or explain why a game is more popular than another, since all those tools come *after* you're already hooked. And here is my simple answer to your question: most people are just more comfortable with "traditional" fighting games that have two fighters on the ground, and simply don't like having two characters floating mid-air. That's where the main difference between both games is, and you should keep in mind that all the competition/hardcore considerations are second priority after the basics of the game (its main gameplay and its cast). Being a casual and barely 30 minutes of HM behind me (yeah I have never touched AoCF), I can also say that for a game that is supposed to be "beginner friendly", it's very very unwelcoming, off-putting and not intuitive a tiny bit to actually control our character and perform combos. Such a poor first experience is not very encouraging. While Soku is definitely easier to land a hit on your opponent. So yeah, you've missed quite a major, basic reason to explain that, while most of the details stated are actually minor. *TL;DR* The real reason is way more simple: the first contact with AoCF and the very fact of floating mid-air. Well, the cast is very important too, though we'd argue that AoCF also has a fair amount of girls who are decently popular.
Oppositely for my experience. In HM, ULiL and AoCF i can bit the story mode on lunatic mode, but for Hisoutensoku... I barely can pass arcade mode on easy mode.
Personally i found myself liking AoCF more than Soku due to the ability to nearly endlessly stunlock opponents as Koishi and Shinmy, the "phase through" dash with Sumireko and Koishi in particular was also really fun to interact with and made offensive gameplay as fun as full offensive Suika in Soku. That being said i've played AoCF once online and stuck with two-keyboard/controller with friends ever since PS: Soku has a way cooler intro and main menu
I think another real reason is the art style - in Soku, the cast are drawn in a way that makes them look... mature, for lack of a better word - Yukari looks like she's a terrifyingly beautiful adult youkai in Soku - in AoCF she looks like a child, and the same goes for the rest of the cast. Byakuren, despite her normal portrayal in both community and other media as a more mature figure, looks likes she's maybe 8 in AoCF. It's the Arcana Hearts problem - no matter how cool gameplay may be, nobody wants to play "that one loli fighting game", and I absolutely agree there - on an art level, Soku appeals to me way more than AoCF does.
If I had to guess: it's because IaMP and HM are way too non-standard compared to their respective successors, SWR is pointless when Soku is right there, and ULiL... I'm not sure about ULiL.
@@Hijiri_MIRACHION Every ground fighter has a perk. The Suika boss fight was interesting and fun. SWR has the best story of any ground fitghter. And Hisoutensoku has a pretty nice multiplayer system. SWR is my favorite only because of the OST and story.
Steam and other entry points are wide open for AoCF However, the playing environment at that time was Touhou as a doujin game, so the initial population was overwhelmingly different. The same population as Soku was around the time of HM, and it has been decreasing rapidly through ULiL and AoCF. Also, the Soku online competition requires you to buy SWR as well, and you need to set up your character, which is a hurdle for those who don't have one prepared. Actually.
Alright video, but there's quite a bit of misconceptions and omissions about AoCF that should've also been addressed.
- Yes, it does have a pushblock system, but it's not as much of a free defensive tool as you think. There's quite a few ways to get around it to deal with push block since it does INCREASE hitstun on attacks, so you can't interact out of it as quickly (like jumping out)
- You also cannot tech grabs AT ALL while barrier is up, so if you predict that they're going to try to push block, you can grab them which will not only break their push block, but gets rid of a SIGNIFICANT about of recoverable white health, which is a big deal.
- On the other side, there's different kinds of pushblocking, which does cause certain factors/properties to it. There are timed push blocks as well that forces more interactive for the defensive player to get out, but it is a bit risky since it requires timing the press while holding no direction (if you try to press 4 while pressing D you will dash instead, which can easily be knocked)
- The stuff above is more nitpicky, but it needs MORE explanation into the slave system, because that also brings in a whole slew of other options in defense, but also higher risk (you can get guard crushed as the slave bar acts like a guard gauge now, you lose safe escape options if your bar goes below 50%, etc)
- Adding to the above point, this game has almost true hard knockdowns, which isn't present in touhou fighters before Hopeless Masquerade (and isn't locked behind a weather system). I say ALMOST true because you can use tag tech rolls (requires 50% slave meter) to roll out despite being in HKD. It is a bit too easy to get this but it DOES have it's own concerns.
- The big reason why rollback doesn't exist for AoCF right now is because the engine is COMPLETELY different from Soku, and uses an engine that isn't known to work with GGPO at all, and it's hard to decompile and figure out how to incorporate rollback still. It's still a work in progress but it's frustrating that they're using a very niche language (Squirrel) on this game.
There's quite a few other things to mention, but I think this video could've gotten more points across as to what AoCF has because it kinda comes off as saying AoCF is "too simple" when it does have a lot more than shown on surface level. (I forgot to bring up that most people didn't play floaters in the end because of how it "feels" without a ground and it isn't "traditional", but I think that's important too). I do absolutely agree the game is not perfect and has issues, and still gives too much power to defense, but it's not as straightforward as it seems and it DOES require interactivity, just that it gives more power to defense than it does to offense which is absolutely the developer's intention, because based on past patches and balancing, Unabara definitely doesn't want another Soku lol.
Soku, the Melee of Touhou FG
Didnt expect to see you here
Isnt melee kinda unbalanced af and broken though ?
wow, here before it becomes popular C:
@@deathserpent9747So is Soku
People will play a fighting game with great mechanics regardless of balance, just look at MvC3, tekken 5 etc.
Melee is no more unbalanaced than other fighters of its era. A lot of non-Melee players like to say that it's just six or so usabke characters, but over half the roster has seen tournament success
Very great video, I'd also like to add something to avoid confusion:
Soku's rollback netcode is not GGPO, but something made by Fireseal (SokuRoll) who unfortunately lost the code when their hard drive burned.
The issue is that even though people are trying to look into it, it's difficult to improve the current state of the netcode (which is a bit worse than GGPO) without knowing how it's been made.
Game's still playable cross-continent with enough delay/rollback.
I like more soku because:
-It has Patchouli
-You can create your loadout with the card system, it's quite interesting
-it has Patchouli
I love the pixel art of AoCF, it's amazing, but the most important part is that is available on console... besides that, I don't quite like the possesion system and the aerial battles
That’s a weird way to spell Meiling. Now if only Yuugi could be playable
Don't forget the fact that it has Patchouli!
I honestly feel SOKU it's is a lot more interesting and fun to play, even if it looks a bit ugly
*utsuho@@malikoniousjoe
@@God-ch8lq *Marisa
Instead of adding rollbacks to AOCF, I think it would be nice to see a new Touhou fighting game released that has rollbacks.
I'd also argue that Soku's defensive moments feel more like a dance where both players are constantly trying to weave in and out of the other's threatened zone and find good ranges and opportunities to actually lay down offense, so the defense is enjoyable to watch 'cause it feels like there's a constant risk involved. But don't listen to me, I'm just a Sakuya scrub
To this day I still feel deeply sadened to have dropped AoCF just because of the lack of rollback.
You shouldn't really feel sad for deopping something that would be frustrating to do (Like dealing with Delay netcode matches)
There is more to it then that. Good netcode isn't the silver bullet. I feel like it's more that it's a bit too far of a departure off traditional fighting norms that, combined with a lot of the simplifying compared to Soku, turns off your average FGC person. Meanwhile the game's weirdness will turn off the vast majority of casual players so the only people picking the game up are strictly only touhou fans.
Let me put it this way. I managed to convince 3 people to play Soku who have never played or heard of touhou before and they actually enjoyed it, with several peeps continuing to keep playing! Meanwhile, the only reaction i got to AOCF is 'the fuck is this game?' and not in a good way.
You missed something important. Story mode in Hstn is much better because it is made with something different than basic arcade-story, including arenas, action, and conversations(secret enemy also). Most new players go to story first.
Me myself played local country competitions of Hstn\SWR back in 12-13-14. Got to quarter finals at most. Organizer of that also hosted DOTS competitions.
honestly, I think that Hstn's story loses just because it only has 3 characters available... at least I can play just about any character in AOCF's, even if I have to unlock it first.
you know what games newcommers usually start with? you guessed it, the first ones
(screw you pc-98, nobody plays you)
Meanwhile me who started with UM
Me who play HRtP as the first Touhou game
I actually started with Scarlet Weather Rhapsody. Not only was it my first Touhou game, but it was also my first Fighting Game. Touhou actually introduced me to the FGC.
SOKU is fairly a better game than AOCF, Gameplay vs Gameplay. Deepness is the clue here. Even If both had rollback netcode and the same mods, SOKU will still the most played one. I can't deny that there would be more people playing AOCF, because it is not a bad game at al..
For me I just dislike fighting while swimming😂so weird. Never gonna play the new series before they add the ground back
2:04 as someone who's main game has been mbaacc and who refuses to play Lumina because they won't add Sion to it, I agree with this message
hes just like me fr
It's crazy to me that Umineko Golden Fantasia, a game that barely anyone knows and plays, has rollback net code, while AoCF does not 🤡
Hopefully Arc System will be interested in collaborating with TSA and Twilight Frontier.
It's seems like the devs could make a "Soku" version of AoCF by adjusting parameters and actually adding rollback net-code.
AoCF seems like a fighting game that doesn't want you to fight, defeating the entire purpose of what it's trying to be. Also, no rollback netcode is awful. There's multiple ways to improve it to actually be tempting to play. A shame, really.
To be fair, I think the internet t is to more closely simulate a danmakai battle in a fighting game style which if that's the case it certainly looks the part
good video, not a fighting game person but ive always been curious abt them. but isnt utsuho from the 2nd windows era? ive always seen people say the first windows era was 6-9.5, then ZUN switched game engines or smthn
As someone who has played a number of different fighting games I have been intrested in the Touhou FGs and Touhou in general for a while now. I believe that fighting games need to have stronger offensive systems then defensive ones to work, so as soon as you started talking about how strong the defensive mechanics in these games are I knew something was wrong. I will probably still get AoCF to play as a single player experience and maybe play a couple matches with some friends, but if I decide to stick with a touhou game long term it will have to be Soku.
Because Meiling, case closed
I'd play Soku instead of AoCF since it has more of my fav characters but I absolutely suck at fighting games, especially remembering combos and stuff so AoCF is a lot more enjoyable as the combos are simpler and the game holds your hand way more
Excellent video! The netcode situation is truly unfortunate and my prayers go to my AoCF sisters
I honestly like HM more because the customization felt like soku a little bit. But still Soku feels better and more chaotic
Really cool video ! Very informative, I like
Personally I would always stick to Soku for the reasons mention in the video, mainly because of popularity and their game system in general. I wouldn’t play a game if the ground isn’t like traditional games are, it just feels weird. The obly character that I like in AoFC is Ichirin and Mokou and pretty much thats it. AoFC really for competitive just like Soku is?
1:55 english isn't my first language. Can someone tell me please what 4c means?
backwards special
@@daytermination911 Oh. I thought it was some abbreviation, but everything was simpler xd
Thx
Only reason I play Soku is because it has Patchy and the only one I like in AoCF is Udonge and Koosh
11:20 I'M IN THE VIDEO!!!
There is only ONE reason why I prefer AoCF to Soku.
...
Mokou. It's Mokou.
Weirdly enough I never really liked this game even though I was absolutely fine with Hopeless Masquerade. (Which is weird because I mained Koishi in HM and Mokou in AoCF and I can say in confidence one was far less of a headache than the other.)
I can imagine AoCF Koishi being a meme because of her whole 'teleports behind you nothing personel kid' gimick. It's really funny tbh and i wish i could play with somebody online to do that to them
Great job😊
I'll never stop being upset at the fact Sanae isn't a playable character in AoCF. She almost feels like a main character next to Reimu and Marisa.
I have always been a casual and have always sucked at fighting games.
So speaking with the mouth of someone who never went far with the modding and various tools around the game, which is the situation that you *should* consider being the case to welcome potential new players and/or explain why a game is more popular than another, since all those tools come *after* you're already hooked.
And here is my simple answer to your question: most people are just more comfortable with "traditional" fighting games that have two fighters on the ground, and simply don't like having two characters floating mid-air. That's where the main difference between both games is, and you should keep in mind that all the competition/hardcore considerations are second priority after the basics of the game (its main gameplay and its cast).
Being a casual and barely 30 minutes of HM behind me (yeah I have never touched AoCF), I can also say that for a game that is supposed to be "beginner friendly", it's very very unwelcoming, off-putting and not intuitive a tiny bit to actually control our character and perform combos. Such a poor first experience is not very encouraging. While Soku is definitely easier to land a hit on your opponent.
So yeah, you've missed quite a major, basic reason to explain that, while most of the details stated are actually minor.
*TL;DR*
The real reason is way more simple: the first contact with AoCF and the very fact of floating mid-air. Well, the cast is very important too, though we'd argue that AoCF also has a fair amount of girls who are decently popular.
Oppositely for my experience. In HM, ULiL and AoCF i can bit the story mode on lunatic mode, but for Hisoutensoku... I barely can pass arcade mode on easy mode.
I just like playing more characters
I like Soku because Suwako is there.
Personally i found myself liking AoCF more than Soku due to the ability to nearly endlessly stunlock opponents as Koishi and Shinmy, the "phase through" dash with Sumireko and Koishi in particular was also really fun to interact with and made offensive gameplay as fun as full offensive Suika in Soku.
That being said i've played AoCF once online and stuck with two-keyboard/controller with friends ever since
PS: Soku has a way cooler intro and main menu
11:42 what is this? O_O
It's the lobbies mod !
White ran confirmed?
I think another real reason is the art style - in Soku, the cast are drawn in a way that makes them look... mature, for lack of a better word - Yukari looks like she's a terrifyingly beautiful adult youkai in Soku - in AoCF she looks like a child, and the same goes for the rest of the cast. Byakuren, despite her normal portrayal in both community and other media as a more mature figure, looks likes she's maybe 8 in AoCF. It's the Arcana Hearts problem - no matter how cool gameplay may be, nobody wants to play "that one loli fighting game", and I absolutely agree there - on an art level, Soku appeals to me way more than AoCF does.
I find that interesting considering i showed a friend the fighting games and they were put off by how the sprites in soku looked
@girlbeneaththegap6982 How? The soku sprites still look amazing to this day and I hold them to be on par with Blazblue or UNI
The Miiverse Yeah Bomber person.
hello, how's life ?
and actually, I wasn't the most abusive yeahbomber guy in Miiverse, but I'm quite surprised to be recognized with that status !
@@daytermination911 Life is good.
You were “Day_2nd” right? If so, I remember people raging at you yeahbombing back then, it was absolutely hilarious.
@@ace420lol yeaaah that was me !!!
that was quite something indeed, time goes fast !
@@daytermination911 yep, hopefully the next Nintendo console has something like Miiverse, it was truly golden.
Omggg
J'aime bcp l'hommage rendu et le sujet traité merci day 🙏
A better question is "Why is Hisoutensoku the most popular Touhou fighter?"
If I had to guess: it's because IaMP and HM are way too non-standard compared to their respective successors, SWR is pointless when Soku is right there, and ULiL... I'm not sure about ULiL.
@@Hijiri_MIRACHION Every ground fighter has a perk.
The Suika boss fight was interesting and fun.
SWR has the best story of any ground fitghter.
And Hisoutensoku has a pretty nice multiplayer system.
SWR is my favorite only because of the OST and story.
Steam and other entry points are wide open for AoCF
However, the playing environment at that time was Touhou as a doujin game, so the initial population was overwhelmingly different.
The same population as Soku was around the time of HM, and it has been decreasing rapidly through ULiL and AoCF.
Also, the Soku online competition requires you to buy SWR as well, and you need to set up your character, which is a hurdle for those who don't have one prepared. Actually.
i always looked it as iamp / soku / aocf. a lot of people dropped out between iamp to swr