Sydney Trains Vlog 2240: Sydney Central Station Set for a Major Transformation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
- Sydney Central Station Set for a Major Transformation
Plans are underway to transform Sydney Central Stations by building over the country and interstate platforms.
The area over these platforms will include parks, affordable housing, office space, retail, bars, restaurants and more.
Other areas in and around Central station that will get some attention will be Eddy Avenue Plaza, The Goods Line and The Mortuary Station (Regent Street).
More info
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#travel #sydneytrains #sydneymetro
My first impression is that I love it! The new buildings, plazas, and inter-connections. My second impression is that this is a 20-30 year masterplan and will turn Central Station into a permanent construction zone haha.
During the peak tourism season for the Indian Pacific the train is split between Platforms 1, 2 & 3. These are the longest platforms at Central with a combined length of approx 900m. It wouldn't be feasible to have them on the shorter platforms of 11 & 12 with a combined length of less than 400m.
While they are spending money on upgrading Sydney Terminal, they should build a dome structure right over the suburban platforms 16 - 23. Having worked at Central these platforms get very cold in winter and when it rains everyone gets wet getting on/off the trains.
If they actually end up building over the yards (platforms) it'll be something like the Hudson Yards project in Manhattan which bred new life into an underutilized and industrial part of the city and it was very well received. The same could happen here!
We’re in Sydney not New York!
except Hudson Yards is accessible from street level or at most a short flight of steps, while Central is already above street level. I imagine any plazas made will not be popular among the public, only serving people using the buildings on top
The Hudson yards were at street level originally, the new buildings effectively setting a separate street level.
Honestly, I think this is a great idea, central has huge capacity for ingress and egrees and having a business TDD development right at Central makes all kinds of sense.
It's a rivalry
I think this will be super interesting to see in action. Heritage expos will probably be run from an alternative station like Strathfield or something. It also means the entirety of Sydney terminal will be rebuilt (as you predicted when P12 was in construction) - it will take a long long time to finish though, and a lot of it will be out of action for a while. It makes sense that P13 & P14 are now being worked on considering their intentions of upgrading the rest of Sydney terminal. That being said, SCO trains will certainly stay (maybe even permanently moved) to ESRL, with the only trains using P12-14 being the CCN, BMT and occasional terminators ( this will be reduced a lot ) IF the project is given the green light.
How many platforms can Strathfield have out of use? And they are 10 carriages at most long.
@@JulianSortland they could easily use the tracks from platforms 1-4 at minimum - since these are held on weekends there would also be likely trackwork on either the T1/T9 or the T2 lines, freeing up capacity through more of the platforms. It’s just an idea, not too many alternatives are available
Also they can cater for (doesn’t mean they can always fit) 10 car sets, or the NIF D sets wouldn’t be going through there.
I am 72 so I don't think I will see it in my lifetime knowing how slow things get done in this state.
Thanks
Thank you so much! 😊
One thing I love about Central Station is that it hasn’t changed much and takes you back in time. I think certain things should be left alone.
Too late mate. It's been changed alright. Now it is better than ever. Yes old Central is still there. PLUS NOW!...so much wonderful new spaces. The place is great.
It's so much better now compared to old dirty dark & dingy station that was. Way more airy & bright.
Hi Phil, thanks for another great video. It looks like Central Station is about to experience a major alteration even larger than when Spencer Street Station became Southern Cross Station here in Melbourne. With every upgrade there are always advantages and disadvantages. I suppose time will tell as to how it all works out. Anyway, all the very best. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
I agree with your concerns a few of my own concerns in addition to yours.
1. Looks like the location of the buffer stops at platform 1 will move to create more space between the grand concourse and the end of the platform. This is the zero point for the railway and has been since Central opened (or shortly thereafter). Obviously they won't redo the kilometerage of the entire railway by moving the zero point 20m away. But this is a significant historical landmark, believe it or not.
2. There is an emerging issue across Sydney of large apartment block being built next to the rail corridor to be closer to train stations (rightly). However the developers are using cheap construction techniques and not properly noise proofing residences. This is resulting is prospective owners buying off the plans then complaining to the railway (which has been there for 100 years) about the noise of the railway. The plan is now to put these apartments next to the busiest railway station in the country, that generally operates almost around the clock.
3. Water run off and drainage, where will the water go from the overhead platform? The railway already as legacy drainage issue, so the answer can't be "the track drainage system". This is already at capacity, and funnelling multiple football fields of water in rain events into that drainage system is not a small issue.
4. To add to the diesel hauled train issue. Some time track possessions are taken for trackwork where diesel trains can travel through the possession, trains like the XPT and Explorer, this may mean that the Civity trains may travel from start to finish on diesel power as these possessions also take place on occasion in Sydney Yard.
5. Lighting in the country platforms. The entire area of the country platforms will be covered, requiring additional lighting 24 hours a day. I don't feel like this will be the well lit, inviting environment of somewhere like Southern Cross station. There will need to be a lot of work to both preserve the heritage but ensure the place isn't dingey.
There are some ideas I do agree with however. Mortuary park and the goods line underpass, and the revitalisation of the square on the western side of Central Station. These are great projects, that I feel should go ahead with or without the deck over the station. However I feel like it will be an all or nothing approach, with years of construction, probably taking 10 years to finish, and likely resulting in the destruction of the heritage station roofs on platforms 4/5 and 6/7 with the old UK style fence timber edging hanging down for the roof. Though a lot of this was cut off when the railway introduced double deck trains.
Let's not just stand there and let it be bad. The design has come a long way since they started planning a few years back. All Sydney tail fans need to be writting to our politicians to ask for further changes, do that more heritage detailing may be preserved.
There is nearly enough room to move the SCG here...what a win/win that would be !!
certainly wouldn't mind an oval here, like the docklands
That looks incredible! Central Station and the surrounding area has so much potential! - It has always felt a little derelict and unloved. Most excited for the urban activation of the connecting areas, and the continuation of central walk through towards Pitt street, to connect to the new proposed square. I always hoped they would also do something with Eddy avenue - maybe pedestrianization, and better integrating in with Belmore Park, though obviously keeping the Light rail and bus lanes. So much potential and hopefully it is realized!
This was being talked about when I was a puppy. I'll believe it when I see it.
Phil - I find it good and legitimate to build over the yard and corridor between Central and Redfern. I don't think they should build over the top of the actual platforms though, especially not if they still want to have any diesel trains running into Sydney Terminal. So many of these projects have been disasterous in the past, we need to be very careful. It would also mean it would be insanely expensive to build another Metro underground box under those platforms or any HSR platforms. But I worked on the Central Station Metro box, station revitalisation and Central Walk project(s) and I think people will be blown away by the extension of Central Walk planned under the regional platforms. And east-west connectivity could be so massively enhanced with more pedestrian connections across the rail corridor possible if you decked over it and allowed development that put pedestrian movements in the focus of its design.
The grand concourse does feel a little tired, same with Eddie place. So I think this is good. I wonder where the intercity buses will drop people off at, since they are turning the current dropoff area into a park.
When I was passing through the Devonshire St tunnel the other day I saw the new Atlassian Central building had OSD painted large on the centre support so that might have something to do with this idk. And the fumes issue could be reduced if they put vents above where the exhausts would be on a diesel like at Perth
I love it. They need to get started yesterday!
If they can avoid the mistakes made when Adelaide built over their main station, I say go for it!
Love your work from Melbourne ❤👌
Sounds exciting and moving forward Sydney. 😊💚👍
Pretty sure that the engineers will have sorted fume extraction systems that cater to the needs of the system, as for the IP the rumour is that they will start the detraining at Clyde in the future to remove the need to divide the train into 2 or 3 sections.and the extra cost of the motive power to get those sections into the city & back to Clyde for amalgamation into a full consist...
That’s a pity … alighting or boarding the train at Sydney Terminal is one of the highlights in my opinion. I’ve heard the same will happen in Perth too because of Metronet. 🤔
@@FromtheWindowSeat It's a matter of it was always going to happen, the economics is phenomenal when you consider the costs vs the income generated over time.. Bit like when they built over Chatswood, someone spotted the economic windfall from rents and over rail development..
It sorta defeats the point of a grand, impressive station if you don't acually get to arrive and depart from there.
Ending up at a random station or yard outside the city is so anti climactic.
One concern is that the gentrification may mean that some cheap eats will disappear replaced with more expensive and less diverse fare. However, it looks like this has already happened at eddy avenue and some of the older snack shops elsewhere. There are also three homeless charity organizations there that are operating on a shoe string that may get squeezed out.
Hey Phil - I didn't know about this - I'm 56 and still remember taking the rail motors from Sutherland / things change - my only question is - will these new plans interfere with any new light rail lines - I personally think a light rail down Parramatta road is a brilliant idea - it's such a shame Sydney got rid of the trams - I think the covering of the platforms is good as it buffers against weather - I really enjoy your content- thank you for your hard work
Central already looks fine, I don’t think it really needs these upgrades.
Heads up this one is a long one from me
Got mixed feelings about this project. I'm fine with it if they build around Central & Sydney Yard, but building over it I'm not fine with it.
The issues that I see with this project is if they keep delaying it they may end up not going ahead with it at all. The other issues with it will be the structure and cost of it. If they have issues with them, then that's another reason for the project to not go ahead.
The government did announced that 30+ suburbs that are near stations will be getting rezoned. They also mentioned that they wanna build mini cities that are only 15 minutes away from each other. But the main thing that the government should be focusing on is the planned developments that's happening in Northwest, Western & Southwest Sydney, especially around where the new city of Bradfield will be built.
Could it be possible they may have extractor fans on some of the underground platforms? If that’s the case on heritage events diesel trains could potentially use a couple of the platforms, with heritage steam trains using the uncovered platforms
I'm interested in the construction process! What a mammoth project. How would they build the deck without severely disrupting services?
I think this will be a really cool thing to see however I mainly think they should not build any high rises above Central and they should just leave the grand councourse the way it is, bc it's iconic
Looks like the nice building won't be touched and the platforms themselves aren't very special
@@Lumiobyte platforms 1-12 are heritage listed. Might not be special but the iron work was done over 130 years ago.
@GMCShazamataz honestly, the ironwork over those platforms were a cost cutting measure, and an ugly one. If the original plan had been built out I would agree, but I don't think it makes sense to maintain them in more than a token form at this point.
I don't want to say too much here, but can I say I am not sure about this project idea being needed. I agree with the narrators views. Rome st Brisbane is all under cover with roma parklands above, and ground level platforms. Southern cross Melbourne is covered with all the trains on one level, and another level just for retail.
I'd like to see Harris Street go into a tunnel around the top end of the ABC to exit at Cleveland Street, freeing the Mortuary Station area of most traffic.
Off-ramps onto Broadway would serve the traffic using that; however the project would almost eliminate the messy bit in between that nobody stops at, but adds irritating stop points for the large through traffic.
Great news, maybe a new layer of gold leaf on all the surfaces?
Meanwhile, across Greater Sydney, in one of the world's most disconnected train networks, 80% of trips done by car.
Ooo thanks for the news Phil it means a lot thanks
the only problem I have is that its now a common aesthetic, not a bad one, but it looks like darling harbour extended, I wish they could have worked in the old train sheds into the design but then again you would not get the most out of the land, its a love hate stance I currently take on the whole redo.
It does look like the two open tracks 11 ad 12 are set up for show with building views overlooking them. So I think your steam train is OK. It will be the show.
As exciting it will be if/when it’s completed, I don’t think it’ll ever get off the planning board. From memory it was announced while the liberal/national party was in power in NSW, it took a long time for the current Labor state government to commit to the metro west project which had already started construction. They seem to be running a no frills budget so highly doubt they’ll commit to building this central station project aswell.
The plans for the deck over the tracks has been scrapped, I just read in a SMH article
there is uncovered is suburban lines on far left of visual impression so for steams and such they might use that platforms
for indian pacific and such - they could simply get electric locos and haul trains but they still could use subraban platforms but i recall in event if something goes wrong with indiabb pacific they do stop at suburban station somewhere in sydeny then they could ferry over using Bi mode trains but alternately they could put in exhaust exactaoter pipe in underground platforms - similar you find in somewhere they can extract the fumes out from underground - however in UK we did have diesel trains run in underground stations - in Sunderland (south of Newcastle in UK) station ilsef allows elertic and deseil without problems but one time i have seen fire alarm set off accidently when fumes spills out to platform side
but if they want keep deesil trains and indian pacfric - they could build new station somewhere nearby or use existing sttaion like redfern station which has plenty platforms for that so if splitting long trains required then build new station for that and hook up to metro or existing train line to transfer between it - i recall perth is only one station that indian pacffic can fit in and allows transfer between other lines
This has been done in Boston, Massachusetts, USA. Back Bay, South Station, and North Station all have buildings on top of them and all host diesel trains just fine. Unlike the olden days, today's diesels are not as polluting and they can be turned on and off at will. Steam locomotives and heritage units might be the problem, however.
While their scheduled completion date sounds impressive, I doubt that will be true knowing how state governments and contractors work.
What about the historicy of the old station
The beauty and inyrgrity of Central terminal station is how it stands in glorious sandstone isolation from its surroundings. It seems like this proposed over platform "deck" will destroy much of this. It should not be over the platforms but commence further down the line after the mortuary station.
There is a revised plan that leaves the heritage listed platforms of 1-12 open and undisturbed. looks good on paper but the cost to return ratio is not there. Making spaces that are all so much higher than the surrounds and not easily accessible is a disaster. There is 50mil in engineering and structurals before even erecting temp fence. There is soo many underground lines and services that run as well as the actual underground train tunnels. Remember its an active railway for over 250K people each day. 8m trees growing in light weight soil medium that is only 1m thick, disaster waiting to happen. well over 100 billion to make this reality.
Write to the transport minister and your local MP with your concerns. This plan has changed a lot since first floated, and there is still room for further improvements. But only if rail fans keep pestering them.
I think they should go the other way around, like covering the suburban platform and do a partial cover of intercity platform
Also do something like Osaka or Tokyo station where it’s a mixed entry of ether above or under ground
So what is happening with platforms 12, 13 & 14?
And what's happening with the coach terminal?
Can they put a pwrmanent retored vintage train in front of Mountrey Station ?
So what's happening to the Alassian building and the new YHA railway square?
Looks better already than the disaster that is Southern Cross Station in Melbourne.
We know how Sydney planning goes. It will never end up like the concept drawings and renders. The developers will seek height changes and complain about it being commercially unviable if they don’t get sqm increases and the overall design and rationale will get completely bastardised.
Looking at all the plans that have come out about the "sky above Central" the heritage is going to be drawfed by all the new buildings.
Plus with the Powerhouse being mived to Parramatta its going to be weeird opening up the old Goods Line for nothing more then a quicker way to get to Darling Harbour
As far as i know the Powerhouse will reopen and have two Powerhouses
The ultimo one is basically being stripped of everything interesting about it, and will end up a blank slate, like the boring box they're building at Parramatta.
I did some CAD work for the founders of the powerhouse who are still fighting the ultimo plan. The proposal for ultimo is more events center than real museum
I don’t but if this happens surely they have to change up Redfern too for the heritage evens etc
So what will happen to the Indian pacific train.. will that have to move to Strathfield or Olympic park?
In the pre electrification days the Newcastle Flyer used to swap diesel locos for electric at Gosford. The Indian Pacific could do the same thing at Lithgow.
These plans have improved a lot since they first were floated. Bur if it can't cope with events like transport heritage, Or desal locos, it needs further work. Otherwise its a big loss of capability at central.
One thing I note in these renders is they're no longer having stairs which block view to most of the trains.
They need to leave a gap or keep the buildings in eddy Avenue one story. Or it will ruin then views to and from the train.
I don't think this should just be let happen. I think all rail fans need to be writting in to politicians to make sure central's upgrade doesn t become a down grade in terms of rail capability.
If they can move the expo, steam and diesel trains to the uncovered platforms (11-14) it should be ok.
@Sydney trains vlog do u know exactly when the construction starts? Can u maybe do a update at central on platform 13/14 pls
Did you even listen to the video??? Its an Artists impression and a proposal. And it already differs from the shown images in this video anyway. It wont happen. The costs and risks are too high.
I can imagine that it will take so long to implement this project, judging by past experience, that we might even have battery hybrid or hydrogen powered locos to operate the IP, at least over short distances, to solve the pollution problem by then.
I love it. I think if it is done right, it will be a huge revolution to the CBD. This project holds immense potential, but if done wrong, could screw sydney over. But I am excited to see this happen :)
Chicago Union Station> The big cross-country trains (Empire Builder, Zephyr, etc.) REVERSE in. The IP need 2 or 3 N Class milling about, just to get in empty. Minimise fumes.
Q. Where can I see these plans?
There is a link in the video description :)
I personally would rather they didn’t build over central station but they should expand central walk, add a new roof like southern cross station over the platforms, completely redesign the Devonshire street tunnel and turn the old goods line into cafes and a green space (like a blend between the high line in New York, the alleyways in Melbourne and train street in Hanoi. A combination like that would be nice.
My first thought was the diesel locomotives. Just the same way they have done in NYC.
As for the apartments being built on site they should all be for normal people not the mega rich to enjoy central city living. And also keeping the facade of Cental Station as visable as possible, being such a iconic part of the City. But like all plans, will be lucky to see anything in the next 10yrs.
While I like the renderings of the Goods Line extension the rest is giving the soulless and windswept vibes of the Central Park development nearby. Throw it in the bin and start again!
It looks like apartments will be built on “The Deck”. My question is where do you park?
You dont. Thats the thing. There is zero parking facility in any of the 3 concepts that i have seen.
@@GMCShazamataz but NSW requires parking for all new apartments in SEPP no. 65. Especially disabled parking. Be fun to see how they pull this off.
@@stephenmorrison9707...ever thought you might take the train?
@@jack2453I live in Sydney without a car and take the train but NSW government requires parking for all new apartments (at min)
An apartment with no parking at all is a bad idea
The current Eddy Avenue walkway is literally derelict and is not inviting in any way - any plans to improve amenities, shops and restaurants in this part of Central Station are long overdue
Couldn't heritage services such as steam start/end at Mortuary instead?
The buildings back up to Mortuary Station. closes that door off. Look at the rendering.
Why the hell is Melbourne not doing this with Flinders Street Station?
it is start？
Are you sure about the bimode trains?
Phill When Will It Be Released
?
never
Tbh I like the current station
so was one of these the current henry deane square? not clear
Plaza perhaps
The CAF civity trains are not replacing ALL endeavours.
Didn't they pitch similar about 8 years ago? I think the average over paying passenger would enjoy a reliable train service but 15 months into the current government "year of hell" it's still a frequently falling over shambles
maybe for steam trains, they can be moved to Redfern ? but it looks dope imo
One advantage central has over pretty much every station in the Sydney area is it's terminal platforms not blocking the way through. I bet it would be difficult to have trains stay at any other major city station for a long time loke like this
@@1TW1-m5i indeed. thats true
They need to invest more in bus services to the station
Lol didn't it just get a major transformation?
Being a resident of Melbourne, I can only look at Sydney with envy. Sydney is so far ahead of Melbourne it's not funny.
Meanwhile I laugh at both of you two fighting from Brisbane.
@@electro_sykes you're laughing from 4th place
When will it start and when will end?
Never start.
Adelaide station has been underground for about 30 years and the first electric train didn't run into the underground platforms until 2014, some diesel trains still run into it today, so how would it be a problem for xpt, xplorer, etc?
This is an interesting concept which looks a little "overdeveloped " and will remove the heritage look of Central Station. I am not against open spaces but the few open spaces we have now are dirty, and some are refuges for the homeless. There seems to be no provision for a coach terminal, which is urgently needed. The connection to Darling Harbour via the disused goods line tunnel is a good idea, as is the parkland precinct around Mortuary Station. The Eddy Avenue Plaza looks good and is needed. The Indian Pacific is practically the only diesel hauled interstate train and will probably be relocated as you mentioned which depends on whether the train will still exist that far into the future. The vision is exciting and I hope that the Eddy Avenue side of Central Station will remain as the only reminder of the history of this great station. I have seen many plans like this over the years, and none have come to fruition, so I wouldn't count on this project being completed in the next 50 years. Excellent presentation Phil. Well done 👏 👍
It will take a lot of money & I'm not sure the of the return it will make on that investment. Talk has been ongoing for years about transforming the space above the rail lines south of Central Station. this plan is the weakest I've seen. Do we need more parks? Places for beggars & the homeless to hang about & pester commuters. Current retail around Central is average at best. Take or leave it service, expensive & uninviting food offerings. Sadly this the accepted Sydney standard. To finish on a more positive note, The new Central walk, platform escalators & metro station are surprising good.
Looks interesting, hope they renovate the rest of the old internal passageways as well. What about further south at Eveleigh railyard?, heard that was going to be fully redeveloped as well. Looks so worn down.
I'm excited for it. I love that the goods line will be extended, and did anyone else notice the light rail passing by mortuary station 🤞
I wonder if they could build ventilation into the deck so the lines can be used by any mode?
Not a fan of the idea of putting something else on top of the intercity platforms it feels a bit cramped together and may be too confusing for people
That is sad as there seizing buildings onto a station
Hi Phil
Build a stadium to replace Accor
Just leave Platforms 1-4 uncovered
That would be ideal.
I think they are leaving 10, 11 and 12 uncovered
Correction.. i think they are leaving 11, 12, 13 and 14 uncovered
It's not to late to change it though
@@sydneytrainsvlogs 1-12 are heritage listed structures along with the terminus.
Nothing wrong with the way it is now.
Awesome
AMAZING, please build this
Again? We just completed a huge upgrade
Yes it’s been on the cards for a while
Probably because they couldn’t consider whilst all the other works were in progress, now that they’re done they can consider the next stages.
The central walk and the current upgrades were actually built with provisions for this in mind. It’s probably going to be quite some time until this gets underway though
Didn't they just had a big transformation already lol?
Yes but not affecting interstate and regional platforms I think
They better not build this! It’s Central station not Manhattan!
what i thought the Transformation was all ready being done
❤❤❤
Typical government puff piece. How and when it will turn out left totally up in the air. Summary: They've realised the airspace over infrastructure is worth real money. Highest bidder for it will win. And to the commentator: please buy a dictionary. Find the word "etectera". Notice that the second letter is "t", not "k".
If they do keep diesel trains in the country platforms, Central will likely end up little Melbourne's Southern Cross, always stinking of diesel fumes
Why do you think the new regional fleet will have pantographs. Ain't going to be any diesel fumes at all.
@@carisi2k11The engines for the Indian Pacific may also have to be upgraded as well.
The new DMU will use electric power in Sydney then switch to diesel once they get off the electric network
Hate at the moment.
Clyde Yard? Where on earth is that!?
Challora? No way!
Just hold it out at White Bay Power Station ! ( I'm being sarcastic)
I like the idea of the light rail going up to the mortuary station. Also like the corridor to darling harbour and it's a shame light rail could not go down those tracks under Parramatta road
They wanted to do this with Flinders St. Major comp to design a reworked station with green space and commercial developments built above the platforms, some even reimagined it with garish platform canopies reaching skyward. Common sense prevailed and it was all canned. Hopefully the heritage of the precinct is untouched and take their plans and scrap them.
exactly what heritage is being destroyed here... it's literally just a facelift. Something Flinders St. is in desperate need of.
They did it to Adelaide and look how awful it is now
Similar plans for Brisbane Roma street. But Brisbane live was moved and that.
@@Planetrainguy yep, such a beautiful station with those platform canopies. Can't even get on a train to Melbourne from there, have to travel further out to that new terminus.
@@harrygoldun5779 so sad
Does every inch of this city have to be covered on top of something else. Trains already take forever to enter Central Station. Especially when crossing over points. They would travel even slower once something like this is built on top to make sure no concrete beams are accidentally hit. Look at Golburn Street tunnel entrance, trains travel at a snails pace due to the parking lot on top. Keep it open and allow train spotters and tourists to see the uniqueness of New South Wales trains, especially when diesel and steam trains enter the station. This is Central station not some underground car park for a shopping centre. 😂Keep it spacious and open.
If you haven't, make sure to write to your local member, and the transport and heritage minister. These plans have been modified before, and still have time to be further modified before anything gets approved
The heritage trains may be a challenge or perhaps some smart design using natural airflow to remove the pollutants quickly and relatively harmlessly. A challenge?
The building height limits in Sydney are extremely annoying.
Do you mean the new building heights that have recently been revised?
@@karmalikesme Barely.
Pluses and minuses - the main concourse looks pretty awful - heritage free zone. And you can bet that anything good will disappear once the developers get their mits on.
I have another theory on where the transport heritage expo could go if this project goes ahead, and they cover all the intercity platforms.
theory number one they move the expo or at least the steam and heritage train part of it to Eveleiigh where all those old sheds are
Theory number two they move the expo to Chullora
Theory number three. And this one I don’t agree with because they already do enough there. They just do the heritage expo at Thirlmere Those are my theories