Ah, I'm so glad you brought this up. This was one of my favourite sci-fi books, and the series looks interesting,BUT I also feel quite uneasy about the author's views you mentioned.
I read the books before the controversy and these are my thoughts: Characterization is very limited and characters serve primarily as vehicles for ideas and plot. However, I thought the ideas and concepts were amazing and for me it made the books worth reading. The first book is a bit frustrating It mostly sets the scene for the latter two books which take the ideas and run. If you read the series, it will certainly take you places you don’t expect. The Dark Forest is one of my favorite books of all time.
On the topic of cynicism: Many if not most of the characters are very cynical. But I found the last book to be fairly optimistic, as it delved deeper into the sociology of the trisolaran crisis.
I feel Three Body is much more of an events-driven narrative rather than character driven, and I think that puts a lot of people off. Personally, I enjoyed it and am eager to see some of the descriptions put forward onto the screen. There were sections that, no matter how many times I went over it, I couldn’t picture in my little brain😂
It's hard, reading authors who live in authoritarian regimes, to know what they believe versus what they're being used as a mouthpiece to say... but we can only make choices based on the info we have. That said, I was never able to get through this book. The ideas were interesting, and I was intrigued enough to get about 50% of the way through... but I just felt like I was fighting the text rather than being drawn through.
I love you and I just wanted to say thank you for articulating how you are both afraid of climate change and horrified by the darkness in this world but also not only do you fight to make it better but you genuinely believe in humanity and our capacity for to create a good and loving world. I also feel this way and too often in leftist spaces there is just SO MUCH cynicism and I find it unhelpful and frustrating.
GURRRRRLLLL I FORGOT how ANGRY I was at the blurb for this book!! As soon as you said the word 'blurb' I flashed back to my poor boyfriend sitting on the couch as I paced around the living room ranting about this STUPID BLURB!
I agree with your criticisms. The lack of character work in this book put me off reading the sequels. It's one of those books I respect for its visions, but have no strong feelings about whatsoever.
I read the whole trilogy last November, and they were some of my favorite reads of the year though I know they're far from "for everyone." I'll just say I'm glad both that I didn't know more about the author's personal views at time of reading, and that there are plenty of other authors to support moving on.
I got the feeling the author was an awful person from reading the first and half of the second book. He, as the narrator, has no understanding of humanity, economics, sociology, psychology, women, men, or much of anything else. He seems to hate, or fear, everyone and everything, including the reader. He shows no capacity for self reflection, which is a trait associated with sociopaths. He does like smoking though, so
could he speak freely? Or openly criticize in New York Times his own gouvernement ? I don t think so. Why western journaliste all time ask chinese about that ? Do journalist ask americans author about guantanamo, imperialism, Irak wars or all the thing our western governments do. I understand your point of you, i don t defend his views but i think it s a bit more complicate than that
And what he say at the end his true, many people in the world think about practical things : cost of life, food,education... We should stop judging other countries with our western views
I was wondering this as well. If a non party line answer could have resulted in political consequences at home for himself and his family/friends, then he should never have been asked that and we don't necessarily know what his true answer would be.
These are completely fair points, and I had the same thoughts. He was asked the question, and what other answer could he rightly provide, given his situation? That’s why making this video was complicated and there’s no way for me to deliver a satisfying statement or make a definitive point. I’m not going to be reading any more of his stuff based on what he’s said, but I still gave the book an honest read and an honest review. Best I can do 🤷🏻♀️
Thank you! I read this book and I wanted to love it because I thought it was a pretty cool and interesting idea BUT it was so painfully cynical and misogynistic and fans of this book *hate* when that's pointed out. I wanted to read more but I couldn't do it after I read that the 2nd book is 10X worse.
One thing I really liked about that book was the fact that it was translated from chinese, so it was very on the opposite point of "American led" sci-fi. Knowing the history between the US and China I loved seeing another point of view of an author centering politics around China being "the powerful country" (as opposite as "USA USA USA"). I also loved the Tencent TV show that was made, and it was very well adapted (so I don't really understand the need to westernize it). Sci-Fi concepts are great, physics concepts are great for anyone who is a science nerd. As fun as it is to read, there's loads of great nerdy sci-fi available to read instead if the author has such poor morals.
I've been meaning to read this book for years and it has been on my shelf for awhile now, and I just haven't been inspired to actually pick it up. After watching this video I'm even more conflicted about whether to bother, but I think I'm leaning towards passing my copy along and giving my time to something I'll be more likely to enjoy. Thank you for your honest and thoughtful perspectives!
I was so excited to hear your review about this book and then I heard the sad news about Liu's personal opinions but I'm glad I found your channel and videos! You are so knowledgeable and well spoken! I completely agree with you about the cynicsm in the book I read it last year, and I'm generally okay with a tragic ending to a story if it makes sense. I suppose I am a humanist too as I believe that though there are an abundance of garbage humans on the planet I think that even the garbage can be polished. Not all garbage but most. And I also believe that the good people deserve their life and happiness while living. No one asked to be born 🤷♀. And also I appreciate the way you speak about your opinions in such an intelligent, eloquent, and open-minded manner. Thank you for sharing Willow!
I got the trilogy back when they first came out, before learning of the author’s toadying to genocide. I read them last year as part of a general read-what-you-own effort, and found them fascinating, with a very nifty ending. No plans to ever reread them, but it was time well spent for someone who grew up reading a lot of the stuff that also inspired Liu. I’m a bit of an oddball, apparently, in being profoundly pessimistic without being particularly cynical, so it was interesting to tour such a different moral universe and play with the ideas.
The sequels to this book have much flatter characterization and are more sexist, to the point where the characters in The Three Body Problem feel complex in comparison. I do think the third book is a triumph of translation, though. At one point the translator has to translate multiple fictional.stories that are multi-level metaphors explaining physics concepts, and it's super impressive.
Good for you in being a humanist! Being cynical is just giving up. We must all keep striving for progress, especially in the face of all that is negative.
I read all three of these a few years ago because a friend really liked them and asked me too. I found them all interminably boring. Imo they don't hold up to Asimov or Clarke because while they have that same thing of poorly written characters, sexism, and a plot primarily focused on how clever the authors ideas are, the authors ideas just aren't that clever imo. Most of them are relatively old, and not applied in particularly unique ways. With the best of what Clarke and Asimov have to offer, there's this ah-ha moment as you understand the physics/logic of what they're talking about and it shifts your perspective. With this that never happened. There's something like it with some of how the three body problem ended up working out, but frankly, a lot of it is stuff I'd already seen kicking about to explain the game of thrones summer and winter. (If you want to understand the three body problem more broadly, it's basically just applied chaos theory. Small changes to the starting conditions lead to large changes in the outcomes, and the maths is complicated. It's very similar to how multi joint pendulums behave, if you want to see a visual representation) The cynicism also gets worse as the books go on. Not giving any spoilers beyond the literal title of the next book is The Dark Forest, and if you look up the dark forest hypothesis that should give you a view of how Cixin thinks about humanity, and sapients in general. Also mild spoilers the sexism gets more overt as you said. A woman causes the literal end of the solar system, because her womanly maternal instincts mean she is literally incapable of doing her job. I actually didn't really notice the sexism in the first book, probably because the characters are so flat that it doesn't stand out much anyway.
I have only read summaries of the book, but as you mention the cynicism goes to ridiculous levels, the dark forest theory sounds like something created by a paranoid strategist from the cold war combined with social Darwinism at astronomical scale.
I also read the books years ago and found I had a similar feeling about them as you. Personally, I found the "science" really very surface level and not nearly as clever as it was being made out by the various 'yes and . . .' characters. There is really nothing in these books that hasn't been covered by say Doctor Who 40 years ago. That is sort of the way the 'science' should be viewed from the writing, because though Liu tends to theorize a bunch of non-sense from his smart mouthpieces, he only really name drops some real-world theorems and never actually consistently follows up on them. I mean heck there is just an absolute metric 11D-proton sized load of holes in just about everything that happens after the big reveal. From motivations to even really stupid shit about orbits of certain 3 body star systems, if you know you know. In truth the label of 'hard scifi' here is basically just about the tone, not the science, cuz it's just space magic. The ideas are generally fascinating but Liu honestly has zero tact with communication of them, and also most of them are massively old-hat. The cynicism, especially later on in books 2 and 3 is what really got me to understand that this author is just incredibly juvenile and for lack of a better word 'edgy' in his world-view.
I feel like there has to be a relationship between the twin problems of “books too long” and “blurbs too spoilery.” Are publishers worried we’ll DNF lengthy works if we don’t already know the Big Reveal? When does the blurb-writing phase happen in the editing process? Are blurbs for shorter books less likely to spoil or mention material from the second half?
Completely agree that the barebones character depth made it hard to connect with this book even when the high concept elements are very interesting. I don't totally buy the assertion made by some that traditional novelistic elements must be sidelined to fit in such weighty galactic-scale concepts. The Strugatsky brothers were very deft at conveying complex science fictional ideas within stories that still had characters with great psychological and emotional depth (and they were also SF writers working from within an authoritarian state!)
For a good critique of this book, look up the essay: "The ‘Three-Body Problem’, the Imperative of Survival, and the Misogyny of Reactionary Rhetoric" spoiler: Chinese nationalists like this book a whole lot.... for reasons!
Thank you for mentioning the cynicism! People point to this book as proof we should be scared of the universe and of even the idea of aliens and it makes me sad as someone who grew up believing in the Star Trek model of human space exploration (despite always being a Star Wars kid lol).
Man, I recently read The Three-Body Problem (I agree about it reminding me a lot of Asimov and being Big Idea scifi) and didn't know about the issues with the author. I have the series so it's not like I would have to go out and buy anything else to finish it but it's a very weird feeling now. I'll have to check out Chen Qiufan and Hao Jingfang no matter what I decide to do, though!
I was already not interested in reading this and now I'm even less likely to read it. But I do remember watching an older video where you bring up Vagabonds and I will definitely check that out someday.
I'm glad to hear that you won't be patronizing any more of this author's work in light of controversy. I get so frustrated with millennials who continue to support J. K. Rowling despite all of the whacky ideas she now puts out into the world. I never cared for Harry Potter, but I refuse to even buy Harry Potter LEGO sets at this point due to the fact that they are tangentially connected to her. Which is painful... Because there are some pretty sweet parts in those sets that I could use to upgrade my castle layout. 😅
Aaaggghhh it's so awful to find out writers with intelligence and imaginative creating abilities are jerks. I'll try out the 2 other science fiction writers you brought up as I love sci-fi.
Really found these books to be flat. Female characters were few and awefully written. It had a few fresh ideas but they weren't enough to carry the writing.
I felt like all the characters were flat. I actually enjoyed the series for its mind-boggling descriptions, but if you’re a fan of character-driven stories, you wouldn’t like this.
I am very disappointed to see some people denying everything about a person from just a few words. China has emerged from the cultural revolution, and the west is entering a cultural revolution of its own.
Here's a revised version:"Simply critique the book and let us know if it's worth it! Please refrain from sharing your personal opinions about the author and his actions."
A revised version of what, asshat? That makes no sense at all lol. And if you’re pulling the whole “keep politics out of fiction” thing, fiction is politics. This is all very cringe, hon :)
I so hate hearing who authors I’ve loved and respected truly are, trying to wrestle with how to separate the art from its creator and whether that’s ever possible. All my fond memories of reading Harry Potter are tarnished, my love for The Color Purple, I can no longer read Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, etc. (FWIW, I watched the trailer and first 10 minutes of the 3 Body Problem on Netflix, and it looks epic, beautifully shot, it’s gripping and I’m sure will have many fans. But there’s been some extreme violence, which is difficult to stomach.)
Given how easy it is to be a good person, and how easily people like JKR choose to be monsters, they’re simply not worth supporting. Instead of separating the art from the artist (which only applies in an academic sense and not a financial one, anyway), just support people who choose to be good 🤷🏻♀️
Wow, is this "blurb" an American thing? I just finished reading the UK release, and there's nothing except a list of characters at the beginning of the novel. And also the text on the back of the book doesn't reveal anything to the extent of what that "blurb" thing seems to contain. I'd be _so annoyed_ if all those things would've been spoiled before I even started reading the actual story 😮
My experience with this sounds pretty similar to how you felt the first time, and I'm not sure I'm interested enough to revisit it. Especially with the news about the author. I do think it's quite interesting how it seems like they've chosen to adapt this book by taking it away from the very Chinese context? I don't honestly even know how that'd be possible while still keeping much intact. I'm not sure if I really am interested, but if I was I'd probably rather check out the Tencent version instead.
Thanks for this review, and most importantly the recommendations for other books by Chinese authors. The fact that TBP got a Hugo award undermines all of the other recipients, and does feel very much like the Sad Puppies were involved, it is objectively terrible writing. It does not reward a reader who pays attention, quite the opposite. The misanthropy is only surpassed by the misogyny. It is like the worst of 'classic sci fi'. It's like fan fic, but not good fan fic, bad fan fic that reminds you that book writing is a talent not possessed by everyone. I don't think it was the best sci fi book to come out in the year of publication, I imagine it is not even the best Chinese sci fi book that year.
When I first bought the book I was so excited to read it; I've been craving good, modern science fiction that goes further from the "classics" and presents new (hopefully more varied) characters, tropes, and scenarios. I thought I'd find that on The three body problem. I didn't. I agree that the book has some good details, I have some concerns about the usage and explanations of Physics (as a Physics student myself), but the thing that causes me the most noise are the characters. Especially female characters. Why is it so complicated, even in 2024, to find sci-fi with good characters that are not cis white men? (I know there are more and more nowadays though, I've been lucky to find them recently, but my point stands). Female characters in this book let me disappointed, but that's true to the majority of characters. As you said, simply no dimension or personality at all. The thing is: all people I know that have read this book love it (in particular, my grandfather, with whom I share all sci-fi media I find because we share that love for it, and this concerns me: How do I explain to him the problematic views of this book?). I know taste is personal and all of that, but I couldn't help but think that maybe I was the problem, that I was being too judgemental or fussy. I was not aware about the author's views; this was the last strand. I had already decided I was not going to continue reading the series, but this just consolidated my decision. Thank you so much for making this video and sharing your thoughts with us.
loved your analysis and review, Willow. just a thought about the cynicalism in the book - could it be coded for the fact that Cixin Liu couldn't speak his mind about the sad truth of Chinese authoritarianism (evident from his statement about the Uyghur genocide) and therefore becomes cynical? It is unfortunately the status quo in China and other prosperous but authoritarian societies.
Don’t read Robin Hobb’s book blurbs - massive spoilers - if you don’t want your fantasy spoiled. X) I’m so glad to hear I’m not the only one annoyed by the book sexism
I finished the trilogy thanks to a challenge but, the sexcism only gets worst I'm afraid. And it goes against man in one point also, because they become soft and feminine because they live in peace and prosperity 🤷♀️
Thanks for detailing the controversy, I was completely unaware of this. I was about to track down a copy as it's been on my 'need to get around to' list for a while, and the Netflix show was really motivating me to get on that, but I think I also may pass now. It's one thing to realize that some classic authors had problematic behaviors or views and were, perhaps, a products of their time. It's quite another to throw money at someone making a living of a book currently who supports the Xinjiang concentration camps and the awful things happening there. That's a shame.
I don't intend to finish the 2nd or read the 3rd myself, the controversy being part of it. I tried to read the 2nd book and just loathed it. It was dull, repetitive and shallow. I'm a life-long SF lit lover, I was so excited to read the 1st book a couple years ago and loved its perspective of SF from a Chinese author. I agree that there is a lot about the 1st book that harkens back to a lot of classic English language authors and that was a huge part of the appeal for me. I also think the book itself is very excellently executed and impressive in that right. But that's all there is to say at this point, I guess. I will say that your criticism of the characters not being characters/people, that is a classic SF failing, it's very common in "classics" of SF lit, so a part of me found it familiar. But it's a worthy criticism, I think.
Yes, blurbs are pure crap, but I’m sure, for the most part, the authors themselves feel even more aggravated than the reader. But blurbs and the inner flap summary are the product of the marketing department and the author usually has no control or input into it. I don’t even read any of it anymore, but go to the professional journal review of books when I want to find out about a book instead. I appreciate your frankness and you’ve solved a dilemma for me about reading the books before I might partake in the series. I am intrigued about the second main character you mentioned and his field of study. It sounds as if what he does might owe a bit to Pullman’s Subtle Knife? Did you see any parallels or influence?
Doesnt surprise me that trans people always nice and humane even with people who against them and want them dead Exmuslim but yeah i wont support the writer either humanity cannot ❤❤be devided You have a good heart willow ❤❤
Don’t beat yourself up. You can’t know every issue with every author. I read and loved two Bridget Collins novels before finding out she’s a TERF 🤷🏻♀️
@@WillowTalksBooks I appreciate that. Thank you for your videos. I found you through your review of earthlings and I thought it was spot on. Keep making great videos!
Wow, I read this book in the spring of 2019 and had no idea until this video what kind of comments Liu was making just a few months later. Guess I'm not reading Ball Lightning now :/
I thought it was about the author being sexist bc I heard multiple people talk about it in the past but when you started talking about the New Yorker interview my jar dropped
On top of these issues it was simply too long. If it was written as a 100-150 page novella the cookie cutter characters could be forgiven. Beyond the bloat and sub-par writing some of the ideas are truly intriguing. It had massive potential. I love quality hard SciFi so this book massively disappointed me.
Im really enjoying the show so far. I like the concepts in the book, but everything else is brutal, and I cant stand the translation/prose. I really want to like the series but the books are just so rough that I gave up during book 2. The show is def increasing my enjoyment of this story.
My husband was so excited to read this book and so disappointed in it when he did. I think I won't bother diving into it, especially based on the author's repugnant views.
I was really excited to read this, but I had to put it down during the whole countdown timer section... It just kept on going; pages and pages of cheap b-movie / young adult action dialogue. Maybe I should give it another chance as I "fw you heavy"...
While I agree with you in principle, ask a famous Chinese person who lives in China their opinions on state issues, you'll find that those who value their freedom will echo the party line. I'd take anything like this with a huge grain of salt.
I’m very aware of that (hopefully I don’t come off so painfully naive in most of my videos) but I can still only go off what the author has said. My principles need to come from somewhere.
@@WillowTalksBooks Do your principles come from White Saviourism? I am big supporter of Palestine BUT China is NOT even on that scale, its NOT even as big as the American Prison Industry. And China has narcotics & terrorist areas all around them.
I say. this book will show accuracy of what will happen if aliens come. Some will welcome them, others will try to destroy them, others will create properganda, others will stir up trouble, others will riot and loot, others will see them in a different way to create hybrids, scientists will want to experiment on them, others will harbour them to learn all about them, others will want to use thier technology, others will just want to learn and study them. Humanity is unpredictable and frighting, and if visitors were brave enough to come here, humanity will be divided like never before. Sure, we always have been, but this event will cast divisions down the line so deep that the world will be a new normal. There is no going back. Not sure how bad it will be, but it depends. I know the arrival of the aliens isn't the problem, it's what they bring with them that will change everything.....the same type of thing early settlers did. Anyway, we always see aliens as the bad guys...and like, since it takes 500 light years to get here, it is going to be more than just fighting, it has to be. An advanced civilisation will ignore our primative rock because we have nothing to offer. Anyway, this book/series is accurate as hell and even though it is controversial, it once shows how humans behave and react when they come.
the book is flat and it reads like a young adult book at best. the ideas are ok, but its just not well written. to be fair its not the only scifi book with that issue.
I wonder how much Cixin Liu's cynicism comes from his cultural context, and how much of your humanism comes from yours. You've read far more Chinese sci-fi than I have, is that attitude consistent? I'm curious
That’s a really great point. I remember reading the Chinese sci-fi collection Broken Stars and being stunned at the tonal variety on display, so my gut reaction is to say no, but I couldn’t say for sure
You definitely made a video about Vagabonds by Hao Jingfang, I remember reading it on your recommendation! It was so interesting despite not being completely my cup of tea. I'm still pissed off about the ending, though.
I’m so glad you’re sticking with this. So many popular TH-camrs (and plenty of lesser knowns) spoke out against Liu’s ugly views in 2019, but I’ve watched a majority of those people just ignore that initial criticism because of the new show. Like y’all aren’t following through with your cancel, it’s just f*cking virtue signaling
There is an almost endless supply of good art by good people out there. We don’t need to waste time on bad people. It’s like the adults who keep reading Harry Potter. Way to show a lack of interest in diverse and good art lol
![Death's End [Spoiler] Review | The Three Body Problem](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Yz5n3888buE/mqdefault.jpg)
![Death's End [Spoiler] Review | The Three Body Problem](/img/tr.png)
the way you never shy away
from ideology when talking
about art makes your point
of view both reliable and
really refreshing. 🌻
Thank you 💜
Ah, I'm so glad you brought this up. This was one of my favourite sci-fi books, and the series looks interesting,BUT I also feel quite uneasy about the author's views you mentioned.
I read the books before the controversy and these are my thoughts:
Characterization is very limited and characters serve primarily as vehicles for ideas and plot. However, I thought the ideas and concepts were amazing and for me it made the books worth reading. The first book is a bit frustrating It mostly sets the scene for the latter two books which take the ideas and run.
If you read the series, it will certainly take you places you don’t expect. The Dark Forest is one of my favorite books of all time.
On the topic of cynicism: Many if not most of the characters are very cynical. But I found the last book to be fairly optimistic, as it delved deeper into the sociology of the trisolaran crisis.
I feel Three Body is much more of an events-driven narrative rather than character driven, and I think that puts a lot of people off. Personally, I enjoyed it and am eager to see some of the descriptions put forward onto the screen. There were sections that, no matter how many times I went over it, I couldn’t picture in my little brain😂
It's hard, reading authors who live in authoritarian regimes, to know what they believe versus what they're being used as a mouthpiece to say... but we can only make choices based on the info we have.
That said, I was never able to get through this book. The ideas were interesting, and I was intrigued enough to get about 50% of the way through... but I just felt like I was fighting the text rather than being drawn through.
I love you and I just wanted to say thank you for articulating how you are both afraid of climate change and horrified by the darkness in this world but also not only do you fight to make it better but you genuinely believe in humanity and our capacity for to create a good and loving world. I also feel this way and too often in leftist spaces there is just SO MUCH cynicism and I find it unhelpful and frustrating.
I don't read science fiction much, but I am glad you talked about this book and the author's views.
GURRRRRLLLL I FORGOT how ANGRY I was at the blurb for this book!! As soon as you said the word 'blurb' I flashed back to my poor boyfriend sitting on the couch as I paced around the living room ranting about this STUPID BLURB!
I feel this so much. This is why I also skip reading introductions until I'm finished with books, too. It's a minefield of spoilers out here.
I wasn’t aware of the controversy surrounding the author and really appreciate you mentioning it. I’ll have to do more research on the topic.
I started reading novels by watching your videos . I am thankful to you. Keep updating us about the novels as you read❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you so much for brimging the Uyghur Turks up and for your support!!!! Respects!!!
I agree with your criticisms. The lack of character work in this book put me off reading the sequels. It's one of those books I respect for its visions, but have no strong feelings about whatsoever.
Completely agree. The science was great, but the writing made it feel like I was reading a textbook
I read the whole trilogy last November, and they were some of my favorite reads of the year though I know they're far from "for everyone." I'll just say I'm glad both that I didn't know more about the author's personal views at time of reading, and that there are plenty of other authors to support moving on.
I got the feeling the author was an awful person from reading the first and half of the second book. He, as the narrator, has no understanding of humanity, economics, sociology, psychology, women, men, or much of anything else. He seems to hate, or fear, everyone and everything, including the reader. He shows no capacity for self reflection, which is a trait associated with sociopaths. He does like smoking though, so
could he speak freely? Or openly criticize in New York Times his own gouvernement ? I don t think so. Why western journaliste all time ask chinese about that ? Do journalist ask americans author about guantanamo, imperialism, Irak wars or all the thing our western governments do. I understand your point of you, i don t defend his views but i think it s a bit more complicate than that
And what he say at the end his true, many people in the world think about practical things : cost of life, food,education... We should stop judging other countries with our western views
I was wondering this as well. If a non party line answer could have resulted in political consequences at home for himself and his family/friends, then he should never have been asked that and we don't necessarily know what his true answer would be.
These are completely fair points, and I had the same thoughts. He was asked the question, and what other answer could he rightly provide, given his situation? That’s why making this video was complicated and there’s no way for me to deliver a satisfying statement or make a definitive point. I’m not going to be reading any more of his stuff based on what he’s said, but I still gave the book an honest read and an honest review. Best I can do 🤷🏻♀️
Fair enough
I actually liked the fact that you still gave your review of his book.
Thank you! I read this book and I wanted to love it because I thought it was a pretty cool and interesting idea BUT it was so painfully cynical and misogynistic and fans of this book *hate* when that's pointed out. I wanted to read more but I couldn't do it after I read that the 2nd book is 10X worse.
One thing I really liked about that book was the fact that it was translated from chinese, so it was very on the opposite point of "American led" sci-fi. Knowing the history between the US and China I loved seeing another point of view of an author centering politics around China being "the powerful country" (as opposite as "USA USA USA").
I also loved the Tencent TV show that was made, and it was very well adapted (so I don't really understand the need to westernize it).
Sci-Fi concepts are great, physics concepts are great for anyone who is a science nerd. As fun as it is to read, there's loads of great nerdy sci-fi available to read instead if the author has such poor morals.
Thank for bring up the controversy and speaking up for Uyghur
I've been meaning to read this book for years and it has been on my shelf for awhile now, and I just haven't been inspired to actually pick it up. After watching this video I'm even more conflicted about whether to bother, but I think I'm leaning towards passing my copy along and giving my time to something I'll be more likely to enjoy. Thank you for your honest and thoughtful perspectives!
Just watch the show that came out today. Much better experience than reading the book.
If you read Harry potter or watched the movies. Then you might need to get a lobotomy after what Rowling has said and still saying. 😅
I love your outlook on life so much. I'm grateful you're here
Thank you 🥹💜
I was so excited to hear your review about this book and then I heard the sad news about Liu's personal opinions but I'm glad I found your channel and videos! You are so knowledgeable and well spoken! I completely agree with you about the cynicsm in the book I read it last year, and I'm generally okay with a tragic ending to a story if it makes sense. I suppose I am a humanist too as I believe that though there are an abundance of garbage humans on the planet I think that even the garbage can be polished. Not all garbage but most. And I also believe that the good people deserve their life and happiness while living. No one asked to be born 🤷♀. And also I appreciate the way you speak about your opinions in such an intelligent, eloquent, and open-minded manner. Thank you for sharing Willow!
I got the trilogy back when they first came out, before learning of the author’s toadying to genocide. I read them last year as part of a general read-what-you-own effort, and found them fascinating, with a very nifty ending. No plans to ever reread them, but it was time well spent for someone who grew up reading a lot of the stuff that also inspired Liu. I’m a bit of an oddball, apparently, in being profoundly pessimistic without being particularly cynical, so it was interesting to tour such a different moral universe and play with the ideas.
The sequels to this book have much flatter characterization and are more sexist, to the point where the characters in The Three Body Problem feel complex in comparison.
I do think the third book is a triumph of translation, though. At one point the translator has to translate multiple fictional.stories that are multi-level metaphors explaining physics concepts, and it's super impressive.
I read this few years ago. Certain parts of the book were wildly creative and memorable. Thank you so much for your review and insights
Good for you in being a humanist! Being cynical is just giving up. We must all keep striving for progress, especially in the face of all that is negative.
I read all three of these a few years ago because a friend really liked them and asked me too.
I found them all interminably boring. Imo they don't hold up to Asimov or Clarke because while they have that same thing of poorly written characters, sexism, and a plot primarily focused on how clever the authors ideas are, the authors ideas just aren't that clever imo. Most of them are relatively old, and not applied in particularly unique ways. With the best of what Clarke and Asimov have to offer, there's this ah-ha moment as you understand the physics/logic of what they're talking about and it shifts your perspective. With this that never happened.
There's something like it with some of how the three body problem ended up working out, but frankly, a lot of it is stuff I'd already seen kicking about to explain the game of thrones summer and winter. (If you want to understand the three body problem more broadly, it's basically just applied chaos theory. Small changes to the starting conditions lead to large changes in the outcomes, and the maths is complicated. It's very similar to how multi joint pendulums behave, if you want to see a visual representation)
The cynicism also gets worse as the books go on. Not giving any spoilers beyond the literal title of the next book is The Dark Forest, and if you look up the dark forest hypothesis that should give you a view of how Cixin thinks about humanity, and sapients in general.
Also mild spoilers the sexism gets more overt as you said. A woman causes the literal end of the solar system, because her womanly maternal instincts mean she is literally incapable of doing her job. I actually didn't really notice the sexism in the first book, probably because the characters are so flat that it doesn't stand out much anyway.
I have only read summaries of the book, but as you mention the cynicism goes to ridiculous levels, the dark forest theory sounds like something created by a paranoid strategist from the cold war combined with social Darwinism at astronomical scale.
I also read the books years ago and found I had a similar feeling about them as you. Personally, I found the "science" really very surface level and not nearly as clever as it was being made out by the various 'yes and . . .' characters.
There is really nothing in these books that hasn't been covered by say Doctor Who 40 years ago.
That is sort of the way the 'science' should be viewed from the writing, because though Liu tends to theorize a bunch of non-sense from his smart mouthpieces, he only really name drops some real-world theorems and never actually consistently follows up on them. I mean heck there is just an absolute metric 11D-proton sized load of holes in just about everything that happens after the big reveal. From motivations to even really stupid shit about orbits of certain 3 body star systems, if you know you know. In truth the label of 'hard scifi' here is basically just about the tone, not the science, cuz it's just space magic.
The ideas are generally fascinating but Liu honestly has zero tact with communication of them, and also most of them are massively old-hat. The cynicism, especially later on in books 2 and 3 is what really got me to understand that this author is just incredibly juvenile and for lack of a better word 'edgy' in his world-view.
It's the reality. If such an incident happens in real life, this is exactly how women would respond
Thank you for speaking about the injustices at the concentration camps❤❤
I feel like there has to be a relationship between the twin problems of “books too long” and “blurbs too spoilery.” Are publishers worried we’ll DNF lengthy works if we don’t already know the Big Reveal? When does the blurb-writing phase happen in the editing process? Are blurbs for shorter books less likely to spoil or mention material from the second half?
Completely agree that the barebones character depth made it hard to connect with this book even when the high concept elements are very interesting. I don't totally buy the assertion made by some that traditional novelistic elements must be sidelined to fit in such weighty galactic-scale concepts. The Strugatsky brothers were very deft at conveying complex science fictional ideas within stories that still had characters with great psychological and emotional depth (and they were also SF writers working from within an authoritarian state!)
For a good critique of this book, look up the essay: "The ‘Three-Body Problem’, the Imperative of Survival, and the Misogyny of Reactionary Rhetoric" spoiler: Chinese nationalists like this book a whole lot.... for reasons!
Thank you for mentioning the cynicism! People point to this book as proof we should be scared of the universe and of even the idea of aliens and it makes me sad as someone who grew up believing in the Star Trek model of human space exploration (despite always being a Star Wars kid lol).
Man, I recently read The Three-Body Problem (I agree about it reminding me a lot of Asimov and being Big Idea scifi) and didn't know about the issues with the author. I have the series so it's not like I would have to go out and buy anything else to finish it but it's a very weird feeling now. I'll have to check out Chen Qiufan and Hao Jingfang no matter what I decide to do, though!
Thank you for your very thorough and thoughtful review.
I was already not interested in reading this and now I'm even less likely to read it. But I do remember watching an older video where you bring up Vagabonds and I will definitely check that out someday.
Vagabonds is excellent; strong recommend!
I'm glad to hear that you won't be patronizing any more of this author's work in light of controversy. I get so frustrated with millennials who continue to support J. K. Rowling despite all of the whacky ideas she now puts out into the world. I never cared for Harry Potter, but I refuse to even buy Harry Potter LEGO sets at this point due to the fact that they are tangentially connected to her. Which is painful... Because there are some pretty sweet parts in those sets that I could use to upgrade my castle layout. 😅
Aaaggghhh it's so awful to find out writers with intelligence and imaginative creating abilities are jerks. I'll try out the 2 other science fiction writers you brought up as I love sci-fi.
Really found these books to be flat. Female characters were few and awefully written. It had a few fresh ideas but they weren't enough to carry the writing.
I felt like all the characters were flat. I actually enjoyed the series for its mind-boggling descriptions, but if you’re a fan of character-driven stories, you wouldn’t like this.
And the English translation took out a lot of misogyny in its original text.
I am very disappointed to see some people denying everything about a person from just a few words. China has emerged from the cultural revolution, and the west is entering a cultural revolution of its own.
Here's a revised version:"Simply critique the book and let us know if it's worth it! Please refrain from sharing your personal opinions about the author and his actions."
A revised version of what, asshat? That makes no sense at all lol. And if you’re pulling the whole “keep politics out of fiction” thing, fiction is politics. This is all very cringe, hon :)
I so hate hearing who authors I’ve loved and respected truly are, trying to wrestle with how to separate the art from its creator and whether that’s ever possible. All my fond memories of reading Harry Potter are tarnished, my love for The Color Purple, I can no longer read Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, etc. (FWIW, I watched the trailer and first 10 minutes of the 3 Body Problem on Netflix, and it looks epic, beautifully shot, it’s gripping and I’m sure will have many fans. But there’s been some extreme violence, which is difficult to stomach.)
Given how easy it is to be a good person, and how easily people like JKR choose to be monsters, they’re simply not worth supporting. Instead of separating the art from the artist (which only applies in an academic sense and not a financial one, anyway), just support people who choose to be good 🤷🏻♀️
Wow, is this "blurb" an American thing? I just finished reading the UK release, and there's nothing except a list of characters at the beginning of the novel. And also the text on the back of the book doesn't reveal anything to the extent of what that "blurb" thing seems to contain.
I'd be _so annoyed_ if all those things would've been spoiled before I even started reading the actual story 😮
My experience with this sounds pretty similar to how you felt the first time, and I'm not sure I'm interested enough to revisit it. Especially with the news about the author. I do think it's quite interesting how it seems like they've chosen to adapt this book by taking it away from the very Chinese context? I don't honestly even know how that'd be possible while still keeping much intact. I'm not sure if I really am interested, but if I was I'd probably rather check out the Tencent version instead.
Thanks for this review, and most importantly the recommendations for other books by Chinese authors. The fact that TBP got a Hugo award undermines all of the other recipients, and does feel very much like the Sad Puppies were involved, it is objectively terrible writing. It does not reward a reader who pays attention, quite the opposite. The misanthropy is only surpassed by the misogyny. It is like the worst of 'classic sci fi'. It's like fan fic, but not good fan fic, bad fan fic that reminds you that book writing is a talent not possessed by everyone.
I don't think it was the best sci fi book to come out in the year of publication, I imagine it is not even the best Chinese sci fi book that year.
Glad to hear that we're on the same political bandwidth my friend!
I appreciate your in depth analysis, I didn't know that about the author but shouldn't be surprised as he is bombarded with propaganda where he lives.
When I first bought the book I was so excited to read it; I've been craving good, modern science fiction that goes further from the "classics" and presents new (hopefully more varied) characters, tropes, and scenarios. I thought I'd find that on The three body problem. I didn't.
I agree that the book has some good details, I have some concerns about the usage and explanations of Physics (as a Physics student myself), but the thing that causes me the most noise are the characters. Especially female characters. Why is it so complicated, even in 2024, to find sci-fi with good characters that are not cis white men? (I know there are more and more nowadays though, I've been lucky to find them recently, but my point stands).
Female characters in this book let me disappointed, but that's true to the majority of characters. As you said, simply no dimension or personality at all.
The thing is: all people I know that have read this book love it (in particular, my grandfather, with whom I share all sci-fi media I find because we share that love for it, and this concerns me: How do I explain to him the problematic views of this book?). I know taste is personal and all of that, but I couldn't help but think that maybe I was the problem, that I was being too judgemental or fussy.
I was not aware about the author's views; this was the last strand. I had already decided I was not going to continue reading the series, but this just consolidated my decision.
Thank you so much for making this video and sharing your thoughts with us.
loved your analysis and review, Willow. just a thought about the cynicalism in the book - could it be coded for the fact that Cixin Liu couldn't speak his mind about the sad truth of Chinese authoritarianism (evident from his statement about the Uyghur genocide) and therefore becomes cynical? It is unfortunately the status quo in China and other prosperous but authoritarian societies.
That did actually cross my mind but you phrased it really well. Yeah, I do think it’s possible
"Other prosperous but authoritarian societies" -> You mean the UK and US?
Don’t read Robin Hobb’s book blurbs - massive spoilers - if you don’t want your fantasy spoiled. X)
I’m so glad to hear I’m not the only one annoyed by the book sexism
I finished the trilogy thanks to a challenge but, the sexcism only gets worst I'm afraid. And it goes against man in one point also, because they become soft and feminine because they live in peace and prosperity 🤷♀️
Thanks for detailing the controversy, I was completely unaware of this. I was about to track down a copy as it's been on my 'need to get around to' list for a while, and the Netflix show was really motivating me to get on that, but I think I also may pass now. It's one thing to realize that some classic authors had problematic behaviors or views and were, perhaps, a products of their time. It's quite another to throw money at someone making a living of a book currently who supports the Xinjiang concentration camps and the awful things happening there. That's a shame.
I don't intend to finish the 2nd or read the 3rd myself, the controversy being part of it. I tried to read the 2nd book and just loathed it. It was dull, repetitive and shallow. I'm a life-long SF lit lover, I was so excited to read the 1st book a couple years ago and loved its perspective of SF from a Chinese author. I agree that there is a lot about the 1st book that harkens back to a lot of classic English language authors and that was a huge part of the appeal for me. I also think the book itself is very excellently executed and impressive in that right. But that's all there is to say at this point, I guess.
I will say that your criticism of the characters not being characters/people, that is a classic SF failing, it's very common in "classics" of SF lit, so a part of me found it familiar. But it's a worthy criticism, I think.
Yes, blurbs are pure crap, but I’m sure, for the most part, the authors themselves feel even more aggravated than the reader. But blurbs and the inner flap summary are the product of the marketing department and the author usually has no control or input into it. I don’t even read any of it anymore, but go to the professional journal review of books when I want to find out about a book instead.
I appreciate your frankness and you’ve solved a dilemma for me about reading the books before I might partake in the series. I am intrigued about the second main character you mentioned and his field of study. It sounds as if what he does might owe a bit to Pullman’s Subtle Knife? Did you see any parallels or influence?
Doesnt surprise me that trans people always nice and humane even with people who against them and want them dead
Exmuslim but yeah i wont support the writer either humanity cannot ❤❤be devided
You have a good heart willow ❤❤
I'm upset that I didn't do my due diligence before purchasing this whole series.
Don’t beat yourself up. You can’t know every issue with every author. I read and loved two Bridget Collins novels before finding out she’s a TERF 🤷🏻♀️
@@WillowTalksBooks I appreciate that. Thank you for your videos. I found you through your review of earthlings and I thought it was spot on. Keep making great videos!
Wow, I read this book in the spring of 2019 and had no idea until this video what kind of comments Liu was making just a few months later. Guess I'm not reading Ball Lightning now :/
I thought it was about the author being sexist bc I heard multiple people talk about it in the past but when you started talking about the New Yorker interview my jar dropped
On top of these issues it was simply too long. If it was written as a 100-150 page novella the cookie cutter characters could be forgiven. Beyond the bloat and sub-par writing some of the ideas are truly intriguing. It had massive potential. I love quality hard SciFi so this book massively disappointed me.
Im really enjoying the show so far. I like the concepts in the book, but everything else is brutal, and I cant stand the translation/prose. I really want to like the series but the books are just so rough that I gave up during book 2.
The show is def increasing my enjoyment of this story.
My husband was so excited to read this book and so disappointed in it when he did. I think I won't bother diving into it, especially based on the author's repugnant views.
I was really excited to read this, but I had to put it down during the whole countdown timer section... It just kept on going; pages and pages of cheap b-movie / young adult action dialogue. Maybe I should give it another chance as I "fw you heavy"...
If he speaks about his real thoughts on that he would get into big trouble. He still needs to publish future works.
Many people have said the same in the comments, and yes I am fully aware of this fact
Sounds like I’m going to give this one a miss, for several reasons. Thanks for your review! ❤😊
While I agree with you in principle, ask a famous Chinese person who lives in China their opinions on state issues, you'll find that those who value their freedom will echo the party line. I'd take anything like this with a huge grain of salt.
I’m very aware of that (hopefully I don’t come off so painfully naive in most of my videos) but I can still only go off what the author has said. My principles need to come from somewhere.
@@WillowTalksBooks Do your principles come from White Saviourism? I am big supporter of Palestine BUT China is NOT even on that scale, its NOT even as big as the American Prison Industry. And China has narcotics & terrorist areas all around them.
I say. this book will show accuracy of what will happen if aliens come. Some will welcome them, others will try to destroy them, others will create properganda, others will stir up trouble, others will riot and loot, others will see them in a different way to create hybrids, scientists will want to experiment on them, others will harbour them to learn all about them, others will want to use thier technology, others will just want to learn and study them. Humanity is unpredictable and frighting, and if visitors were brave enough to come here, humanity will be divided like never before. Sure, we always have been, but this event will cast divisions down the line so deep that the world will be a new normal. There is no going back. Not sure how bad it will be, but it depends. I know the arrival of the aliens isn't the problem, it's what they bring with them that will change everything.....the same type of thing early settlers did. Anyway, we always see aliens as the bad guys...and like, since it takes 500 light years to get here, it is going to be more than just fighting, it has to be. An advanced civilisation will ignore our primative rock because we have nothing to offer. Anyway, this book/series is accurate as hell and even though it is controversial, it once shows how humans behave and react when they come.
I heard about this on twitter, I looked this up, and it didn't sound interesting an after hearing this, hasn;t changed my mind...phew
Reading it now.
Okay.
the book is flat and it reads like a young adult book at best. the ideas are ok, but its just not well written. to be fair its not the only scifi book with that issue.
"as a socialist i believe in humans being good to each other"
Yup
@@WillowTalksBooks idiot take.
@@WillowTalksBooksAh yes, a "socialist" who believes in everything the capitalist media makes up about socialist countries.
I wonder how much Cixin Liu's cynicism comes from his cultural context, and how much of your humanism comes from yours. You've read far more Chinese sci-fi than I have, is that attitude consistent? I'm curious
That’s a really great point. I remember reading the Chinese sci-fi collection Broken Stars and being stunned at the tonal variety on display, so my gut reaction is to say no, but I couldn’t say for sure
You definitely made a video about Vagabonds by Hao Jingfang, I remember reading it on your recommendation! It was so interesting despite not being completely my cup of tea.
I'm still pissed off about the ending, though.
I found this book so boring and stupid when the billionaire son becomes a sort of a hero.
I’m so glad you’re sticking with this. So many popular TH-camrs (and plenty of lesser knowns) spoke out against Liu’s ugly views in 2019, but I’ve watched a majority of those people just ignore that initial criticism because of the new show. Like y’all aren’t following through with your cancel, it’s just f*cking virtue signaling
There is an almost endless supply of good art by good people out there. We don’t need to waste time on bad people. It’s like the adults who keep reading Harry Potter. Way to show a lack of interest in diverse and good art lol