Anytime there's A video on TH-cam with David Stahel talking about his knowledge of the eastern front, it's ALWAYS such A pleasure!! Thank you WW2TV!! If you take recommendations for future guests, I would also recommend David Glantz who is 1 of, if not THE, world's leading historian on the eastern front.
Back when my father was still alive, he was a Korea and Vietnam era veteran of the US Army, quite a formidable character, in the back of my mind, I always knew that no problem I could get myself into could be so bad that Dad wouldn't be able to get me out of it. Thankfully, I wasn't imaginative enough to ever truly get my ass in a real crack. It was my older half brother's job to really test Dad, drunk driving an 18 wheeler, illegal drugs, etc. For me it was, "well, before I set out on a cross country 2,500 mile drive in my notoriously unreliable '78 VW Rabbit with just enough money in the world for gas, the voltage light WAS on. Didn't know what it meant, didn't ask, it'll be fine. Now it's broken down in the middle of the country. Who could have predicted or planned for such an event?" I had to make a collect call to ask him to please send money. Thanks Dad for never letting on just how much that must have annoyed you. The new knowledge that apparently Heinz Guderian viewed Hitler in a similar way is at once shocking and hilarious.
Excellent show! I can recommend part 1 also. it is so important to have this channel with the long format. You can't explain most things in 15 minutes. Hoepner is a enigma for me because he is againtst Hitler in 38 ( for me more important then his role in 44) but is absolutely ruthless in Russia. I think if he was not tried and killed in 44, he probably was tried and killed by the Russian after the war
Excellent Show! Regarding Guderian's "faith" in Hitler becoming involved and straightening out the bureacracy; Perhaps he anticipated his letter being read by the higher ups? Hence his compliments?
Thank you Woody and David an excellent 2nd part. I'm reading David's 'retreat from Moscow' right now and after these talk it's like David is narratoring I have his gentle Aussie accent in my head now as I read. Also Woody as a villa fan waiting for spurs tonight. Champions League for villa is possibly as unreal as some of these Generals letters.....terrible football analogy?
Postmanden here. Mr Stahel points are very good. Its also in orgisational theory, an organisation that becomes big, has built into it, that it wants to survive... Referring to Mr Stahels comments on Guderian/AH
My understanding is that German panzer officers trained in the Soviet Union while Germany was still abiding by the terms of the Versailles Treaty. In the run up to Barbarossa, didn't any of those guys say, "Umm... I remember Russian weather started going to s*** in August."
Another excellent "primary source" historian and a frankly engaging and excellent presenter. A very interesting session Woody! Also as a former RAN officer I am so glaf, that our young officers in ADFA have access to such an excellent historian. Yours Aye! Col
Great presentation from David Stahel, not that I expected anything else. He has demonstrated elsewhere that the German commanders (and the Germans in general) imagined the USSR would just crumble before them, despite an abundance of evidence that achieving Barbarossa was outside their capabilities. This presentation gives many insights into how ingrained that mentality and (lack of) thinking were among the generals.
The German high commander with the most Ostfront experience was Von Rundsted, and at the outset he said the whole plan was junk and they should winter somewhere round the Central Russian Uplands, Rostov Kharkov, Smolensk, Leningrad and take Moscow year 2. Noone listened to to only grand strategist they had so he just ran his own slower campaign, and got sacked for retreating like some others; but his Army Group South was the only one fit for further operations in year 2.
In mid 1942 AG South was about 20% understrength in personal and already short on rations&fuel when "Fall Blau" started. The AG was NOT fit for what was asked of them. Changing plans and splitting forces doesn't help. Not von Runstedt's fault at this point ! On the other hand, AG Centre was about 10 or 15% overstrength (yes !) in personel, because somebody high up the food chain decided that the main effort in 1942 should go for Moscow. The name Halder (and the group around him) can be throw into the discussion. Military intelligence (a joke in itself) wasn't up to any task either. Also, AG South operated in an area with poor infra-structure, which made (re-)supply very difficult. In these regions, water is as important as fuel and ammo, especially if 80% of your forces are walking on foot/hoof.
This show has been one of the most profound insights into the entire Nazi project. The lack of emotional maturity! When you think of it, from blaming the defeat in 1918 on everything but German actions--not taking any kind of adult agency--was the heart of the whole enterprise.
04:50 Robert Citino has written several books on The German Way of War. I have said for years that Rommel was but a typical and mediocre of these. That said; where would one find letters from other German Generals? Also, the greatest German Panzer General came from light infantry, not cavalry.
Who among these Generals was doing liason and training duties in Russia in the 20s? Who among them believed that the Russians would quickly collapse because so many of their best officers had been purged by 1939 and the Russians heavy losses in tge Finnish war. Hitler was urged on by their information, the need for Russian oil and their nazi racial plans. At the very least, these idiot generals must have flunked geography to committ to a campaign with a front the length of new england to Florida and as deep as tge distance to Ohio. Just ridiculous.
I go all off General Rauss's memoir(started by commanding the 6th Panzer division) where he plainly states they were just winging it after Barbarossa. They simply had no plan b. Also it should be mentioned as POWs Guderian started major beef with Halder, causing a split between these Barbarossa generals as far as the post war narrative goes. Guderian was a complete hot head 😅
Listening to David and reading his books has convinced the German generals were operational geniuses and logistical morons. Aside from their moral failings.
About the rasputisa weren’t a lot of the commanders veterans of the Russian Front in WW1? I’ve heard in regards to the siege of Leningrad the Fins got cold feet very quickly due to a couple main issues. The breakdown of the campaign to take Murmansk began right away because Soviet maps labeled a telegraph line as dotted so the division commander believed it was a road. The problems Shmit is complaining about the Fins knew & were thinking in 41 the German Army is unreliable. They had ambitious beyond taking back their lost territory Karelia is ethnically closely related to Finland. After seeing the poor performance of Leningrad where the offensive peters out barely surrounding the city, Finland moves just past the old border in the south and took a defensive posture. Not much different to some of the great boardroom culture failures like Enron. We’re talking about a totalitarian system where you can get killed instead of fired but still control life choices of humans & a “proven track record”. Thing can go completely off the rails quickly.
Sun Zu said "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin." He also claimed "The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice." Lastly, "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." It seems that David and Paul have made the case for understanding the hubris of the Nazi indoctrinated staff that failed to take these tenants into account for Barbarossa. My own country has done so during the Vietnam war as well as the latest campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq. I wonder sometimes what is being taught to the cadets at West Point, or what our political leaders are learning in college aside from partying. Well presented by host and guest. Pardon any politicization from my comments. I merely meant to make a comparison to the past.
Anytime there's A video on TH-cam with David Stahel talking about his knowledge of the eastern front, it's ALWAYS such A pleasure!! Thank you WW2TV!! If you take recommendations for future guests, I would also recommend David Glantz who is 1 of, if not THE, world's leading historian on the eastern front.
I am in contact with David Glantz, he has personal commitments as a full-time care-giver that severely restrict his ability to do things like this
It's crazy to think that the Russians managed to take on these very talented commanders.
That was a great Part 2 from David about the Panzer Generals. Glad I could catch it live.
Excellent presentation and discussion. Thank you Paul and David.
Back when my father was still alive, he was a Korea and Vietnam era veteran of the US Army, quite a formidable character, in the back of my mind, I always knew that no problem I could get myself into could be so bad that Dad wouldn't be able to get me out of it.
Thankfully, I wasn't imaginative enough to ever truly get my ass in a real crack. It was my older half brother's job to really test Dad, drunk driving an 18 wheeler, illegal drugs, etc. For me it was, "well, before I set out on a cross country 2,500 mile drive in my notoriously unreliable '78 VW Rabbit with just enough money in the world for gas, the voltage light WAS on. Didn't know what it meant, didn't ask, it'll be fine. Now it's broken down in the middle of the country. Who could have predicted or planned for such an event?" I had to make a collect call to ask him to please send money. Thanks Dad for never letting on just how much that must have annoyed you.
The new knowledge that apparently Heinz Guderian viewed Hitler in a similar way is at once shocking and hilarious.
Wonderful show today gentlemen, thank you.
Woody/David. Been away and decided to catch up beginning with this present, which like the first was brilliant. Very informative! Thanks, Bob
Welcome back!
Excellent show! I can recommend part 1 also. it is so important to have this channel with the long format. You can't explain most things in 15 minutes. Hoepner is a enigma for me because he is againtst Hitler in 38 ( for me more important then his role in 44) but is absolutely ruthless in Russia. I think if he was not tried and killed in 44, he probably was tried and killed by the Russian after the war
Thanks for Walter
I listened to Part 1 and wow a great wrap up and very deep insight into the minds of the German Generals. So Contradictory on All Fronts
Thanks Michael. As you can tell, I love talking to David
Excellent Show! Regarding Guderian's "faith" in Hitler becoming involved and straightening out the bureacracy; Perhaps he anticipated his letter being read by the higher ups? Hence his compliments?
A distinct possibility
At any rate would not be wise to criticize Hitler even in a private letter.
That was brilliant, I could happily listen to a part three. Now onwards to Cassino.
Thank you Woody and David an excellent 2nd part. I'm reading David's 'retreat from Moscow' right now and after these talk it's like David is narratoring I have his gentle Aussie accent in my head now as I read. Also Woody as a villa fan waiting for spurs tonight. Champions League for villa is possibly as unreal as some of these Generals letters.....terrible football analogy?
Actually David has a NZ accent that is morphing into Aussie.
There's no such thing as a bad football analogy lol
Postmanden here. Mr Stahel points are very good. Its also in orgisational theory, an organisation that becomes big, has built into it, that it wants to survive... Referring to Mr Stahels comments on Guderian/AH
Loved your dad-bail out analogy Woody!
Thanks
80+ years later, I have been ambushed by a bunch of German generals, again. excellent interview.
My understanding is that German panzer officers trained in the Soviet Union while Germany was still abiding by the terms of the Versailles Treaty. In the run up to Barbarossa, didn't any of those guys say, "Umm... I remember Russian weather started going to s*** in August."
Nice! Now i know my evening is gonna be solid with a david stahel ptesentation. Been waiting for this one
Another excellent "primary source" historian and a frankly engaging and excellent presenter. A very interesting session Woody! Also as a former RAN officer I am so glaf, that our young officers in ADFA have access to such an excellent historian. Yours Aye! Col
Great presentation from David Stahel, not that I expected anything else. He has demonstrated elsewhere that the German commanders (and the Germans in general) imagined the USSR would just crumble before them, despite an abundance of evidence that achieving Barbarossa was outside their capabilities. This presentation gives many insights into how ingrained that mentality and (lack of) thinking were among the generals.
Great stuff
Very Interesting book !
The German high commander with the most Ostfront experience was Von Rundsted, and at the outset he said the whole plan was junk and they should winter somewhere round the Central Russian Uplands, Rostov Kharkov, Smolensk, Leningrad and take Moscow year 2. Noone listened to to only grand strategist they had so he just ran his own slower campaign, and got sacked for retreating like some others; but his Army Group South was the only one fit for further operations in year 2.
In mid 1942 AG South was about 20% understrength in personal and already short on rations&fuel when "Fall Blau" started. The AG was NOT fit for what was asked of them. Changing plans and splitting forces doesn't help. Not von Runstedt's fault at this point !
On the other hand, AG Centre was about 10 or 15% overstrength (yes !) in personel, because somebody high up the food chain decided that the main effort in 1942 should go for Moscow. The name Halder (and the group around him) can be throw into the discussion. Military intelligence (a joke in itself) wasn't up to any task either.
Also, AG South operated in an area with poor infra-structure, which made (re-)supply very difficult. In these regions, water is as important as fuel and ammo, especially if 80% of your forces are walking on foot/hoof.
Excellent
Love this! So different than the usual operational stuff, which I love, but this is new to me and just as good.
Thank you, that was very interesting.
This show has been one of the most profound insights into the entire Nazi project. The lack of emotional maturity! When you think of it, from blaming the defeat in 1918 on everything but German actions--not taking any kind of adult agency--was the heart of the whole enterprise.
utterly enthralling
04:50 Robert Citino has written several books on The German Way of War. I have said for years that Rommel was but a typical and mediocre of these.
That said; where would one find letters from other German Generals?
Also, the greatest German Panzer General came from light infantry, not cavalry.
I guess you just have to start searching like David did
@@WW2TV I am broke Paul, cutbacks to education here in Denmark.
There are archives that can be studied online
Who among these Generals was doing liason and training duties in Russia in the 20s? Who among them believed that the Russians would quickly collapse because so many of their best officers had been purged by 1939 and the Russians heavy losses in tge Finnish war. Hitler was urged on by their information, the need for Russian oil and their nazi racial plans. At the very least, these idiot generals must have flunked geography to committ to a campaign with a front the length of new england to Florida and as deep as tge distance to Ohio. Just ridiculous.
I go all off General Rauss's memoir(started by commanding the 6th Panzer division) where he plainly states they were just winging it after Barbarossa. They simply had no plan b.
Also it should be mentioned as POWs Guderian started major beef with Halder, causing a split between these Barbarossa generals as far as the post war narrative goes. Guderian was a complete hot head 😅
This seems a good explanation of why Germany lost.
Listening to David and reading his books has convinced the German generals were operational geniuses and logistical morons. Aside from their moral failings.
If you don't know the name Hoth by now, then you're not a Star Wars fan... ;)
About the rasputisa weren’t a lot of the commanders veterans of the Russian Front in WW1? I’ve heard in regards to the siege of Leningrad the Fins got cold feet very quickly due to a couple main issues. The breakdown of the campaign to take Murmansk began right away because Soviet maps labeled a telegraph line as dotted so the division commander believed it was a road. The problems Shmit is complaining about the Fins knew & were thinking in 41 the German Army is unreliable. They had ambitious beyond taking back their lost territory Karelia is ethnically closely related to Finland. After seeing the poor performance of Leningrad where the offensive peters out barely surrounding the city, Finland moves just past the old border in the south and took a defensive posture. Not much different to some of the great boardroom culture failures like Enron. We’re talking about a totalitarian system where you can get killed instead of fired but still control life choices of humans & a “proven track record”. Thing can go completely off the rails quickly.
Sun Zu said "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin." He also claimed "The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice." Lastly, "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." It seems that David and Paul have made the case for understanding the hubris of the Nazi indoctrinated staff that failed to take these tenants into account for Barbarossa. My own country has done so during the Vietnam war as well as the latest campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq. I wonder sometimes what is being taught to the cadets at West Point, or what our political leaders are learning in college aside from partying. Well presented by host and guest. Pardon any politicization from my comments. I merely meant to make a comparison to the past.
❤
With the disolution of the Soviet Union aren’t there a lot less people Russia can call Russians than they could in WW2?
Definitely
❤