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...leave it to the Italian to create a most engaging, expert video on history and then interrupt it by trying to sell you some PASTA. -.- -.- -.- -.- -.- ;)
I really appreciate that. Yes we don't care who sleeps with who but we are interested in the human experience in period, from an anthropological perspective. There are a lot of sources on this matter and it is fascinating to see how for instance the clergy and the authorities reacted to a case of a bishop who was gay but also had connections. There is a lot that can be learnt through this subject. I get it that people will get all emotional about it and get mad but as you know considering all the debunking I've done, we are not pushing political agendas we are showing the truth via the sources. I'd rather leave this topic to the likes of me, since you know I'll tell it how it is, rather than leaving it in the hands of the activists who will twist it.
@@metatronyt Twist what how?!? There are LGBTQ people, there always have been, and they are not responsible for evil in the world AND they deserve the same rights as you or I....It really is that simple. You get to be told by your culture, school, media that you are perfectly normal in your desires regarding consenting adults and that is all anyone else wants. I really don't get the problem! Unless one follows a dogma, which, by it's very definition, is surely the most corrosive substance known to man, as no matter whether it is political ideological or religious in nature, all dogma promotes unquestioning, ignorant obedience as a moral good. This outlook will prime you for manipulation by any dark triad personality seeking your mental slavery.
@@metatronyt feels good to have people focus on facts, the extremes as far too noisy from homophobes who believe homosexuality was invented in 2005 and chemically induced by satan to people fighting to have litteral walls or questionable characters be gay icons what do you think about Sandro Botticelli ? and his " not fit ground for planting vines " comment from Tommaso Soderini
@metatronyt you did claim that Alexander the Great had a non clear sezuality though. Even though he got married to three women (he got married to another woman while still being married to Roxane), him sleeping with female concubines in his tent, him having at least one heir, and him refusing and being offended when presented with the oportunity to sleep with a young man/boy by the Persians. Despite all this you claimed he had an unclear sezuality.. because he had a male friend or something and was sad when he died? Most people are devastated if they lose a friend, does that mean they had romantic feelings for them? Really now? Oooook. Edit: I watched your video once more, I realise I forgot you did address that him and his friend were not lovers but you did make the mistake of translations of terms ans not taking into account the laws and attitudes of the ancient greeks who did not at all accept homos. to the point of having brutal laws against it and very insulting words regarding such acts.
This is why I enjoy your content so much. You never come across as punching down at these constructs, only looking for the truth in the narratives. Great video as always!
I piss them all off because people are all about their feelings and not about the facts. I say facts over feelings whether it offends far left or far right. The truth is the truth.
@@metatronytYou are still religious. Which is hilarious in the context of trying to be objective. You follow a scripture and a god who's cosmology and history is completely fabricated and biased. You claim to be objective and outside of the current political sphere's of influence yet you subscribe to the most easily debunked and morally bankrupt ideology on the planet. When speaking about religion. Why not bring up the Borgias?
@@calus7958 He can follow religion for spiritual purposes, and mantain a more objective view when it comes to research and historical analisis. It's not that hard to understand really
I don’t like it when historians assume a man from history was gay simply because they remained single for most of their life. Perhaps they just didn’t find anyone to settle down with. Perhaps they were too busy with their work. Perhaps they kept getting rejected. There are many other alternatives other than being gay.
True and maybe they just want to die alone and live alone. Depression, loneliness, overworking, unstable financial life, and etc factors can lose a person motivation to do things in life and not aim for that “expected” goal.
And one more thing it does bother me that people who assume these things have forgotten that disabilities can make it impossible or hard to interact with people and build those relationships.
It really depends on When and Who the person was. rather his class mattered and it wasn't really a choice or circumstances like in our time. the noble class (and the church later) often dictated a certain way of life, i.e. producing a heir if it's royalty. and the marriage wasn't always a choice, but a social construct for them. fixed marriages took place so even the ugly could have a spouse. like Meta said, in Rome they didn't care care if a youth fools around with men, so long he provides a legitimate offspring. so it wouldn't be weird if historians reviewed a life of solitude of a notable person and wonder 'what went wrong there', though, not sure how often they'd 'slap' them with gay, but certainly look into it. and just like with Ed II, it wouldn't even matter if he's gay. still had to marry and form a legal bond. so the opposite in not true as well in this aspect anyway. gotta look at history through the eyes of then society, not project modern approach and reasons.
Mi fa piacere sentirti parlare italiano di tanto in tanto! Mi è piaciuto molto come hai letto l'epitaffio e le lettere. Tra l'altro, mi sto abituando fin troppo ad avere ogni giorno un tuo video da guardare, mi mancheranno questi video giornalieri quando tornerai alla schedule ordinaria haha
Thank you for this video. I’ve been critical on some of your earlier videos on this topic, but that’s because many gay/bisexual people throughout history have had their sexualities censored or altered to fit a narrative or conform to the sensibilities of their day. Now we’re experiencing a paradigm shift and it has become increasingly hard to recover the evidence hidden or misinterpreted from past historians and historical revisionists who overcorrect on past failings. I would love to see more videos like this one.
I believe the reasons so many of us react with so much passion and feeling over this topic is that so many of us have been insulted and hurt over the years for our preferred choice of sexual encountoers. Tt is nice and refreshing to see actual historical people mentioned via facts. The pendulum tends to swing too much in both ways, as in people claim everyone is /was gay or that no one was. Thank you from Finland, Metatron and hope you have a wonderful day.
Metatron when reading sources: I saw gay so I said gay, that’s not an agenda that was an astute observation! (Boondocks if you don’t get the reference lol)
Went to a Michaelangelo exhibit, one of the volunteers suggested he probably was gay then pointed out the difference between his depictions of men vs. women...he painted women like he'd never seen one 😂 Delicious video thanks Raf!
@@FireflowerDancer Actually, they did not need to: we pointed to this ourselves andd the teacher laughed: "yes, it does make one wonder." We all got it. The year? 1972, France.
I truly enjoyed this offering. One of the most literate places on you tube. I would certainly enjoy you continuing this series, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Benvenuto Cellini's autobiography mentions going to an artists party to celebrate the end of the "french disease" in Rome, he didn't have a date to bring so he dressed the boy next door up as a girl and took him. He says Michelangelo spent all evening telling the boy how he was the most beautiful woman in the whole world. It's pretty funny he's trying to laugh about Michelangelo when he was the one fined for keeping one of his apprentices as a "wife". He was also tried in france for using a woman "after the italian fashion", which is an amusing euphemism. It's a very interesting book with lots of details about renaissance italy, he's also totally unstable and always getting into fights which he believes are never his fault because he's a hero of peerless achievement.
“Mr. Prick from the Island of Man” has got to be one of the single best names I’ve ever heard 😂 Also, yes! Please make more on this series, it’s very interesting!
This is how you know you can most probably trust anyone talking about a topic: If one takes a neutral point and just talks about facts, highlighting as many sides of the matter as possible while being honest and open about possible biases. Thanks Metatron for yet another great informative video.
I would add as well, the purported way Edward II was killed (hot poker in the bum) would also suggest he was homosexual, and the method was chosen to mock him. Even if he were killed a different way, the story's spread would reflect that the belief was common.
I dunno about that it sounds like a pretty nasty way to kill someone it doesn't have to suggest homosexuality or homophobia, we still use the colloquialism "you're such a pain in the ar*&se" and we've never meant it like that
Along with the portrayal of him in some quarters as a weakling, this legend undermines his authority as a monarch. From that perspective the truth is a byline to the machinations of propaganda. It worked then, it influences some still.
The method of execution is unlikely as the rumour didn't begin until many years after his death. That's straight from the mouth of Berkerly Castles own historian.
Pretty sure the poker in the bum was Lord Darnley father of James I of England although that's more conjecture than fact, Edward II was most likely starved to death.
Actually we don't know when Edward II died, much less how he died. He certainly was not accused of homosexuality by the nobles who were opposing his close friends. Considering a king had no privacy they certainly would have known if he was. Edward III certainly considered the possibility that his father could still be alive since we still have a letter he received stating Edward II was alive in Italy.
Thank you. People who say this or this was not gay or lesbian even when all evidence shows to the contrary are as obnoxious as people who do the opposite. I mean there are some who believe that there was no homosexuality in ancient or medieval era.
@@metatronytJust on a side note- sometime, can we talk about how Queen Hatsepshut was not queer or trans just because she wore a beard? That particular leftist claim really 'gets my goat,' not sure why lol🎉🎉
Michelangelo had major commissions from the pope, he was basically the Pope’s artist. So Michelangelo was a big deal, basically the guy producing top budget Hollywood blockbusters but also smart films. Da Vinci was the guy struggling to self-fund indie projects, occasionally finding a mid-size backer, then losing that backer because he worked too slowly, that is now remembered fondly because his stuff was brilliant.
My favorite "probably was gay" historical figure was Frederick The Great of Prussia. I love how on the one hand he was a conservative, shrewd and ruthless politician and military leader in Berlin and on the battlefield, but at his palace of Sans Soussi he was a bohemian socialite and artist, while probably having a gay old time with other his artist friends.
Jean is a complete lad for having the songs that the common folk sang about him sung to his face. Sounds like he had a sense of humour and the church also didn’t like that too much. 15:03
Hi Metatron, I love your well considered and objective videos, and I share many interests with you. I frequently recommend you to others. But for your second subject, you showed a picture of Jean II (Jean le bon ), King of France, who was active in the 14thC - not the 11th C as your subject is. The portrait is to be seen in the Louvre.
It's actually quite difficult for us historians to tell whether or not a historical person was gay or not. Particularly bc what we consider to be "gay" nowadays isn't even remotely applicable to these people. The view of what we consider to be gay nowadays doesn't even remotely apply to people living back then. There ARE certain metrics we can use and it's even easier when the people in question let us know, but to translate today's views reagrding homosexuality to people living in centuries before us is hard. We have to distinguish between rumours, the "sin" of sodomy and the accepted (among the nobilty) "italian vice". I really admire Metatron for getting into this.
Thank you for an excellently researched, presented and argued video! I would like to see a series. I am especially impressed that, like all good historians, you revise your hypotheses when you receive more data.
I can not express with words how much this video means to me. Thank you so much for sharing truth and reason when so many just try to polarize with buzzwords, not understanding in the slightest what they are talking about. Those people are not my allies, they don’t speak for me. But you do. Thank you so much! I’d love to see more of this!
@@jaybee9269 Antinous was as good as a paramour. Hadrian was married, but no kids and Hadrian never stayed very long in Rome. Antinous drowned in the Nile and Hadrian was heartbroken, putting up more statues and temples to the kid, than those for the Emperors.
I'm sure many historical figures were gay; there's nothing about homosexuality that either excludes nor encourages genius. What I find annoying, however, is when modern people slap the "gay" label on historic figures as a way to legitimize and promote an agenda.
Christianity has a pretty strong agenda in the West to make sure no one is gay. The Christian agenda also revised history and castrated tons of art throughout history to reinforce that agenda. The dominant culture tries to erase gay people from history or erase the fact a historical person was gay if the person is too well known. Many people laud Alan Turing for his effort in WWII and aiding victory for the Allies. Few people go on to detail how he was then prosecuted by the British government for being gay, forcibly castrated and subsequently committed suicide. There's also a major agenda on the other side which says that being gay is "unnatural" or that being gay is something "new" in history, only to be found in cultures that fell to "decadence" - but it's not true. Gay people have made major contributions to global history and culture and if "traditional families" are going to be so heavily promoted as "the corner stone of civilization" then it's fair to note the non-traditional people who changed history as well.
As a queer/ questioning person, it annoys me a lot too. There's a big difference between what we actually went through historically, and what is promoted by, well, the promoters. And I wish we would talk about it more realistically. Straight people tend to try and deny/minimize it, and queer folks want to say everyone cool was also gay, now is any of that really necessary? Lol
@@FireflowerDancerMaybe Historically straight people (a term invented by gay people or what you now call queer which I think refers largely to boring ppl with no personality who vaguely had a crush on someone their same sex once often requiring zero personality) tried to hush up things but in 2024 that's certainly not the case. I agree with the thrust of your argument but honestly rumours of being gay were pretty commonly pushed by enemies
Man these italia spoken poems sound so beautiful it makes me wanna learn the linguo. 😊 Just came back from a vacation there and it’s now interesting to hear the story of the place.
Great video (as always)! You should do a part 2 of this video including Roman emperor Hadrian, also Leonardo Da Vinci, Chevaliere d'Éon and maybe Oscar Wilde (if modern period fits the theme).
Those bell peppers looked very nice. I wonder how they kept fresh in the box. An interested historical video as always. Thank you very much for keeping to the sources rather than to an agenda. As someone with no strong feelings on the subject, I was just interested in hearing what your team found out.
Wonderful! You pronounce Italian beautifully I know it's your first language, but that takes nothing away from your melodious voice when speaking. I, in comparison, sound like a street vendor from Palermo. If I were a rich man, I would pay you for Italian elocution lessons. Mesmerizing!
Nice video. I like the Sappho story. I kinda get the association between lesbians and prostitutes. If a prostitute was seen as a broken woman in old Greece, then she was only left to find love with women. Btw, people should google for the paining of Sappho by Auguste Charles Mengin (1853-1933).
Thank you Metatron for another fascinating video. Even though I was somewhat familiar with some of the details of Michaelangelo and Sappho from my own readings and my college education, it was great to learn more about this subject concerning other historical figures.
To many people place modern ideas and ways of thought on people in the past then judge them based on those modern ways of thinking. At many points in the past the very idea that people would be either straight or gay didn't exist.
Thank you for making this video, Metatron. I wonder if Netflix is going to make an actual documentary about any of these people... but I'm not holding my breath.
Loved your video as usual. It is SO difficult to look backwards at historical events and persons and be objective, as time and cultures view the past through their own lenses, as you have said many times. Appreciate your efforts though. I know you have probably done a video on this but I am really curious what the line of contact between two classical armies would have looked like. I'm assuming different military styles would have produced different experiences but always wondered how a battle would have looked through the eyes of a common foot soldier.
I don't care about who was or was not gay. But I do enjoy how this impacts people, society, and art (including how things are recorded in writing). It is interesting how society adapts, changes, or pushes back at such things. It could be homosexuality or a new religion or even a new scientific discovery, to name a few such catalysts. So a new series on how "one thing" impacted different societies over the centuries might be very interesting.
When studying art at university I've always had the feeling that Michelangelo, even if was gay, never really consumed his love, as he was very very religious (for what I can remeber).. But, of course (and as it should be, in my opinion) we never discussed this matter in class or read in the books. But still, just a feeling.
One of the best lectures I've found on historical sexual orientation is Holding It Straight by Dr. Bob Mills. In this lecture he asks and address the question did the people of Middle Ages Europe have a concept of sexual orientation as we do today; i.e. did Medieval people have a concept of gay and straight? The answer he comes to is that Medieval people did have an idea of sexual orientation but it wasn't in terms of attraction to a certain gender or characteristic but a choice between a call to married life or religious life; sexuality or virginity. Its not to say that there weren't ever gay, bi, or queer people until the modern age just how the spectrum worked differently in peoples minds in a historical period. What it says for me is that people have always been people so somethings never change but human experience is nuance by the time, place, and society we are living in, now and in the past.
15:49 I dislike correcting TH-camrs who make English language mistakes when it's not their primary language. But this was kinda funny. A "shark" is a fish that will nomnom your "shank", aka leg. So Edward sadly didn't have extra long shanks, because they were eaten by his extra long sharks.
As a barely literate luddite, it would be nice if you read the english translation after reading the original language. I'm sure it is done for time management, but I often listen to these videos while I am driving or doing chores and I can't read the translation that is on the screen. I'm sure that I am not the only subscriber that does this. Pardon the nit-picking, I'm sure you have more important things to worry about.
Thanks for this. It's so refreshing to see honest recounting of actual historical reality instead wishcasting historical figures to be a person contemporary writers (or propagandists) wish they were, whether it is their sexuality, race, etc... Projecting on historical figures various traits that a particular person or group wishes they had in common with themselves is simply an illegitimate distortion of history and historical figures. Without reflecting the reality of the person and when they lived in the context of their world any story about them is merely fiction and that sheds no light on the historical figure, the period in which they lived and is a disservice to people living today.
Now, that was an informative short-form piece on historical figures who are known to have been or were likely to have been same-sex attracted. Refreshing.
As a gay man, the reason why some queer people try so hard to impose modernity on the past is so that they can appropriate their existence through legitimacy. Even I would love to know how gay people like me used to live in the past in varying socioeconomic and cultural contexts. But more often than not people try to look at it more emotionally than rationally. To be honest I do not blame them since, because of the discrimination most still face today, they are trying to find their place in history. Obviously, it can lead to irrationality but I also attribute this to the very basic human need of validation. Nevertheless, I always enjoy your critical take on history and the work you are doing of bringing out the REAL stories is important. Thank you for championing true representation of diverse range of people, it personally makes me feel included.
As a gay person myself and a lover of history, I'm really thankful for this video! I feel as though this is a polarising topic when honestly it shouldn't be; Not for the reasons people make it out to be, that is. It's hard to know intimate details like sexuality from time periods where homosexuality was criminalised/shunned or otherwise not given written word the way more overt topics of the time were. But some people seem to be of the belief that because historical figures were not overt the way people can in modern day, that they must have been default straight- forgetting all the ramifications that would have come with being so open in some societies. It's a blessing that we even have these small pieces of niche history and mainly it's because they happened to be nobles or otherwise written about. I often wonder how many niches of historic LGBTQ cultures we will never, ever know about because they were between common people. How many terms, hidden languages, symbols have we missed that indicated someone was LGBTQ during medieval and further time periods? I suppose we'll truly never know.
People also often argue that so and so couldn't have been gay because he was married to a woman and had children. There are gay men getting married to women TO THIS DAY, especially in religious communities because that's what is expected of them in their communities. The societal expectations to get married and have children were a lot stronger back then too.
I see Michelangelo on your thumbnail, and my art historian's hair starts to rise in the air. He wasn't a gay man - at least not often. Very sombre and serious bloke, by all accounts. Kidding aside, I'd sooner say he was an ascetic personality, i.e. these days they'd be calling him _an incel_ (judging from rather masculine shapes of her female nudes in Capella Sistina, which don't look so masculine when viewed from the floor, it might seem he never saw a naked woman - but mostly people see them as photos in books and that gives the wrong impression; look instead at his sculpture in Medici Chapel, at Dawn and Night - nothing masculine there; some might point a bit strange boobs on Night, but she's meant to be an older woman, and still he flattered her body more than they usually are, or were in the period!), but he had one love, a certain lady whose name I can't remember from the top of my head (but I'll remember it later, once the comment fades into YT abyss... no, wait - Vittoria Colonna!), and they wrote love letters to each other, his were laced with erotic imagery of her body - I've read a few of those while studying art history. However, nobody can tell whether they consummated the relationship. Since I specialise in late medieval art on eastern coast of Adriatic, I can't claim to be an expert in Michelangelo's biography, but with the whole semester allotted to Leonardo, Raphael and Michelangelo, plus reading some excerpts from his notebooks I did get some insight into the matter. Donatello and Leonardo seem more suspicious in homo-erotic tendencies. OK, now I can watch the video and see what you have to say. EDIT: Michelangelo Buonarroti was an artist with an eye and appreciation for beauty, male and female alike, as well as that of nature. If you read what he wrote to Tomaso, proper methodology would be to compare those to letters and poems he wrote to Vittoria Colonna.
I would actually assume that Michelangelo was gay. Why ? Because his depictions of men are so lascivious and his depictions of women are not. Is that proof? Of course not, it's just my personal guess...
@@spiderlily723 Absolutely. When I studied art history, then got my masters in the same and doctorate in art history and museology topic, worked on projects related to Late medieval (Gothic) art and architecture for 20 years - the word "incel" didn't even exist. On top of that, I wrote that "these days they would call him an incel" - meaning that most people today wouldn't understand such ascetic, pious, self-denying, work-focused character, not that he "would be an incel". I don't know if there is a word for "voluntary celibate", but not in sense of catholic clergy. Not my speciality.
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Hi
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1m85 = 6'2"
...leave it to the Italian to create a most engaging, expert video on history and then interrupt it by trying to sell you some PASTA. -.- -.- -.- -.- -.- ;)
Gaveston: "Gav" rhymes with "have" + hard s + "ton"
Edward Lomgshanks - shanks = legs.
So Michaelangelo was a legendary artist, gay, AND a Ninja Turtle??
A true Rennaissance Man!
Ninja turtle?
@@waynewatts8736 teenage mutant ninja turtles. brudda with the orange headband is called Michaelangelo.
@@SuperDuperMan-v8y ok I get the analogy 😂
🤣Brilliant comment! 👍
🤣😂🤣😂
Metatron, one of the few people i would trust in this subject, and to not claim every same sex friendship of the past was gay.
I really appreciate that. Yes we don't care who sleeps with who but we are interested in the human experience in period, from an anthropological perspective.
There are a lot of sources on this matter and it is fascinating to see how for instance the clergy and the authorities reacted to a case of a bishop who was gay but also had connections. There is a lot that can be learnt through this subject.
I get it that people will get all emotional about it and get mad but as you know considering all the debunking I've done, we are not pushing political agendas we are showing the truth via the sources.
I'd rather leave this topic to the likes of me, since you know I'll tell it how it is, rather than leaving it in the hands of the activists who will twist it.
@@metatronyt Twist what how?!? There are LGBTQ people, there always have been, and they are not responsible for evil in the world AND they deserve the same rights as you or I....It really is that simple. You get to be told by your culture, school, media that you are perfectly normal in your desires regarding consenting adults and that is all anyone else wants. I really don't get the problem! Unless one follows a dogma, which, by it's very definition, is surely the most corrosive substance known to man, as no matter whether it is political ideological or religious in nature, all dogma promotes unquestioning, ignorant obedience as a moral good. This outlook will prime you for manipulation by any dark triad personality seeking your mental slavery.
@@metatronyt feels good to have people focus on facts, the extremes as far too noisy from homophobes who believe homosexuality was invented in 2005 and chemically induced by satan to people fighting to have litteral walls or questionable characters be gay icons
what do you think about Sandro Botticelli ? and his " not fit ground for planting vines " comment from Tommaso Soderini
I trust him to explain Lord of the Rings.
@metatronyt you did claim that Alexander the Great had a non clear sezuality though. Even though he got married to three women (he got married to another woman while still being married to Roxane), him sleeping with female concubines in his tent, him having at least one heir, and him refusing and being offended when presented with the oportunity to sleep with a young man/boy by the Persians. Despite all this you claimed he had an unclear sezuality.. because he had a male friend or something and was sad when he died? Most people are devastated if they lose a friend, does that mean they had romantic feelings for them? Really now? Oooook. Edit: I watched your video once more, I realise I forgot you did address that him and his friend were not lovers but you did make the mistake of translations of terms ans not taking into account the laws and attitudes of the ancient greeks who did not at all accept homos. to the point of having brutal laws against it and very insulting words regarding such acts.
This is why I enjoy your content so much. You never come across as punching down at these constructs, only looking for the truth in the narratives. Great video as always!
Glad you enjoy it and thanks!
Metatron after making extremists rage left, right and center: I'll fokin do it again
I piss them all off because people are all about their feelings and not about the facts. I say facts over feelings whether it offends far left or far right. The truth is the truth.
@@metatronytYou are still religious. Which is hilarious in the context of trying to be objective. You follow a scripture and a god who's cosmology and history is completely fabricated and biased. You claim to be objective and outside of the current political sphere's of influence yet you subscribe to the most easily debunked and morally bankrupt ideology on the planet. When speaking about religion. Why not bring up the Borgias?
@@calus7958 What are you doing out of Reddit? Shoo Shoo back to the pit with you.
@@williamjenkins4913 Exactly, All you can do is the same tired Reddit meme. You can't actually refute anything I say.
@@calus7958 He can follow religion for spiritual purposes, and mantain a more objective view when it comes to research and historical analisis. It's not that hard to understand really
Imagine many centuries from now, and people are debating if John Travolta was gay or not 😂
He was in grease
I rest my case
@@nodot17 valid argument. Contemporaries then and now prove that we've had an unchanged "gaydar" for centuries, if not millennia
If they watch that South Park episode they will def think yes.
People do that now...
Ive already met someone eho refused to believe Freddy Mercury was gay so it wouldn't surprise me if that question was only decades away 😂
This was a fun video thanks Metatron and team!
I don’t like it when historians assume a man from history was gay simply because they remained single for most of their life. Perhaps they just didn’t find anyone to settle down with. Perhaps they were too busy with their work. Perhaps they kept getting rejected. There are many other alternatives other than being gay.
True and maybe they just want to die alone and live alone. Depression, loneliness, overworking, unstable financial life, and etc factors can lose a person motivation to do things in life and not aim for that “expected” goal.
And one more thing it does bother me that people who assume these things have forgotten that disabilities can make it impossible or hard to interact with people and build those relationships.
As an asexual person myself: maybe they just didn't want to. (agreeing)
It really depends on When and Who the person was. rather his class mattered and it wasn't really a choice or circumstances like in our time. the noble class (and the church later) often dictated a certain way of life, i.e. producing a heir if it's royalty. and the marriage wasn't always a choice, but a social construct for them. fixed marriages took place so even the ugly could have a spouse. like Meta said, in Rome they didn't care care if a youth fools around with men, so long he provides a legitimate offspring.
so it wouldn't be weird if historians reviewed a life of solitude of a notable person and wonder 'what went wrong there', though, not sure how often they'd 'slap' them with gay, but certainly look into it.
and just like with Ed II, it wouldn't even matter if he's gay. still had to marry and form a legal bond. so the opposite in not true as well in this aspect anyway.
gotta look at history through the eyes of then society, not project modern approach and reasons.
Everyone of any historical significance had AIDS…
The End.
Mi fa piacere sentirti parlare italiano di tanto in tanto! Mi è piaciuto molto come hai letto l'epitaffio e le lettere. Tra l'altro, mi sto abituando fin troppo ad avere ogni giorno un tuo video da guardare, mi mancheranno questi video giornalieri quando tornerai alla schedule ordinaria haha
I know, people say that French is the language of love, but I think now hearing Italian it is the language of passion.
Thank you for this video. I’ve been critical on some of your earlier videos on this topic, but that’s because many gay/bisexual people throughout history have had their sexualities censored or altered to fit a narrative or conform to the sensibilities of their day. Now we’re experiencing a paradigm shift and it has become increasingly hard to recover the evidence hidden or misinterpreted from past historians and historical revisionists who overcorrect on past failings. I would love to see more videos like this one.
I believe the reasons so many of us react with so much passion and feeling over this topic is that so many of us have been insulted and hurt over the years for our preferred choice of sexual encountoers. Tt is nice and refreshing to see actual historical people mentioned via facts. The pendulum tends to swing too much in both ways, as in people claim everyone is /was gay or that no one was. Thank you from Finland, Metatron and hope you have a wonderful day.
I appreciate that thank you.
So, you’re saying homosexuality is a preference? And therefore a choice. Homosexuals are NOT born that way!
Metatron when reading sources: I saw gay so I said gay, that’s not an agenda that was an astute observation!
(Boondocks if you don’t get the reference lol)
Truly great show 😂
Went to a Michaelangelo exhibit, one of the volunteers suggested he probably was gay then pointed out the difference between his depictions of men vs. women...he painted women like he'd never seen one 😂 Delicious video thanks Raf!
I just took a peek. Omg you're right. They sure did not mention this detail in high school AP art! 😅
@@FireflowerDancer Did you take a peek at photos of his paintings of women (especially in Capella Sistina) or his sculptures of nude women?
@@BlackQback Both, actually. Why do you ask?
@@FireflowerDancer Actually, they did not need to: we pointed to this ourselves andd the teacher laughed: "yes, it does make one wonder." We all got it. The year? 1972, France.
M’s women look like men
Metatron's term 'Longshark' is SO much better than 'Longshanks' 😁
Nah, Sharks are cool. Eddie was just lanky (Longshanks-Long legs)
I was thinking "have I been pronouncing it wrong all this time". He is a linguist after all.
I love that Metatron is pointing at us in the thumbnail.
Lol
That was refreshing! There was so much debunking, it's nice to see this the other way around, put in context and backed by facts.
I'm glad to hear that thanks.
I truly enjoyed this offering. One of the most literate places on you tube. I would certainly enjoy you continuing this series, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Benvenuto Cellini's autobiography mentions going to an artists party to celebrate the end of the "french disease" in Rome, he didn't have a date to bring so he dressed the boy next door up as a girl and took him. He says Michelangelo spent all evening telling the boy how he was the most beautiful woman in the whole world. It's pretty funny he's trying to laugh about Michelangelo when he was the one fined for keeping one of his apprentices as a "wife". He was also tried in france for using a woman "after the italian fashion", which is an amusing euphemism.
It's a very interesting book with lots of details about renaissance italy, he's also totally unstable and always getting into fights which he believes are never his fault because he's a hero of peerless achievement.
I was just thinking about Cellini myself since I loved History On Fire's episode on him.
“Mr. Prick from the Island of Man” has got to be one of the single best names I’ve ever heard 😂
Also, yes! Please make more on this series, it’s very interesting!
He's the first cousin of Mr. Douche from the Virgin Islands
The probability that such a person actually exists is quite high
Sapho was straight or lesbian? I don't bi either argument!
straight
@@Pontheon. You do know that was a joke and not a misspelling?
@@markfeldhaus1 😂😂😂
This is how you know you can most probably trust anyone talking about a topic: If one takes a neutral point and just talks about facts, highlighting as many sides of the matter as possible while being honest and open about possible biases.
Thanks Metatron for yet another great informative video.
Dam good video as usual.
I appreciate that, thanks.
I would add as well, the purported way Edward II was killed (hot poker in the bum) would also suggest he was homosexual, and the method was chosen to mock him. Even if he were killed a different way, the story's spread would reflect that the belief was common.
I dunno about that it sounds like a pretty nasty way to kill someone it doesn't have to suggest homosexuality or homophobia, we still use the colloquialism "you're such a pain in the ar*&se" and we've never meant it like that
Along with the portrayal of him in some quarters as a weakling, this legend undermines his authority as a monarch. From that perspective the truth is a byline to the machinations of propaganda. It worked then, it influences some still.
The method of execution is unlikely as the rumour didn't begin until many years after his death. That's straight from the mouth of Berkerly Castles own historian.
Pretty sure the poker in the bum was Lord Darnley father of James I of England although that's more conjecture than fact, Edward II was most likely starved to death.
Actually we don't know when Edward II died, much less how he died. He certainly was not accused of homosexuality by the nobles who were opposing his close friends. Considering a king had no privacy they certainly would have known if he was. Edward III certainly considered the possibility that his father could still be alive since we still have a letter he received stating Edward II was alive in Italy.
Thank you. People who say this or this was not gay or lesbian even when all evidence shows to the contrary are as obnoxious as people who do the opposite. I mean there are some who believe that there was no homosexuality in ancient or medieval era.
Exactly. It's facts over feelings. People get too emotional about these topics and their critical thinking goes out the window.
@@metatronytI agree 110%! Thanks for this.
@@metatronytJust on a side note- sometime, can we talk about how Queen Hatsepshut was not queer or trans just because she wore a beard? That particular leftist claim really 'gets my goat,' not sure why lol🎉🎉
If homosexuality never existed then why is it a sin? Some people don't think long enough about the logic of their opinion.
@@yolkonut6851 Plenty of third gender societies claim it wasn't a thing either. Almost like the third gender covered it up...
Fascinating. Continue these. I will miss this week.
Wait Michelangelo is more of a main character than Leonardo da Vinci during the renaissance?
Michelangelo had major commissions from the pope, he was basically the Pope’s artist. So Michelangelo was a big deal, basically the guy producing top budget Hollywood blockbusters but also smart films.
Da Vinci was the guy struggling to self-fund indie projects, occasionally finding a mid-size backer, then losing that backer because he worked too slowly, that is now remembered fondly because his stuff was brilliant.
@@annekeener4119 ahhhhh ok ok very true didn’t think of it like that.
@@annekeener4119 >> Da Vinci to a tee!😂
Same, I thought da Vinci was undisputed
the ninja turtles have taught you wrong : P
My favorite "probably was gay" historical figure was Frederick The Great of Prussia. I love how on the one hand he was a conservative, shrewd and ruthless politician and military leader in Berlin and on the battlefield, but at his palace of Sans Soussi he was a bohemian socialite and artist, while probably having a gay old time with other his artist friends.
He only survived because some idiot Russian emperor was a Prussian simp
*Souci.
Is that even a probably?
@@invidatauro8922 *"probably", restart.
I think he was more autistic than anything
Excellent and interesting video.
Many thanks
I'd love to see you turn this into a series! Keep up the great work! 👍
The meaning of the word gay changed quite recently. And it's Longshanks as in rhymes with planks. :)
I agree things keep changing which is why it's important to always frame discussions about the past in their correct period context.
@@metatronyt Very interesting video sir!
It hasn't been changed so much as it is being chewed up and spat out by gender theory.
in a travel report the behavior of the people on the Titanic is described as very gay
@@Ashakat42you're mistaken. Its more common current usage stems from an acronym. Do you need the acronym and it's meaning spelled out for you?
Am I the only one who went weak at the knees over the Italian poetry?
And people claim French is more romantic! Bah!
Maybe you should start squatting and consuming more calcium
Stuff definitely happened in my stomach when I heard it.
Between us 2, yes. I find poetry silly.
Jean is a complete lad for having the songs that the common folk sang about him sung to his face. Sounds like he had a sense of humour and the church also didn’t like that too much. 15:03
Hi Metatron, I love your well considered and objective videos, and I share many interests with you. I frequently recommend you to others. But for your second subject, you showed a picture of Jean II (Jean le bon ), King of France, who was active in the 14thC - not the 11th C as your subject is. The portrait is to be seen in the Louvre.
It's actually quite difficult for us historians to tell whether or not a historical person was gay or not. Particularly bc what we consider to be "gay" nowadays isn't even remotely applicable to these people. The view of what we consider to be gay nowadays doesn't even remotely apply to people living back then.
There ARE certain metrics we can use and it's even easier when the people in question let us know, but to translate today's views reagrding homosexuality to people living in centuries before us is hard. We have to distinguish between rumours, the "sin" of sodomy and the accepted (among the nobilty) "italian vice".
I really admire Metatron for getting into this.
Thank you for an excellently researched, presented and argued video! I would like to see a series. I am especially impressed that, like all good historians, you revise your hypotheses when you receive more data.
I’m not interested in the subject, but one of the reasons I come here and watch is for a break from BS. Thank you, Metatron. Great video.
I appreciate that
I need this to be a series
I can not express with words how much this video means to me. Thank you so much for sharing truth and reason when so many just try to polarize with buzzwords, not understanding in the slightest what they are talking about. Those people are not my allies, they don’t speak for me. But you do. Thank you so much! I’d love to see more of this!
Gay, Bi Trans, hetero or whatever, if you like Metatron's content, you're all right
Fun fact: Santa Clause was gay, in the historical sense of the word. He was a very jolly old fellow😂
He's dead! 😮
Ya the wife was a dead giveaway 😄
@@valandil7454Santa is giving away his dead wife now? Wouldn't want to be THAT kid when he opens the biggest box on Christmas morning...
@@angbandsbane Jack Skellington has joined the chat
I love word play.😂
Love how you make sure your content is well researched and there for the most accurate content available. 👌 love this channel ❤
This is really well done and attends to subtleties of truth. Thank you.
Emperor Hadrian was so gay his boyfriend became a god
Not his boyfriend. Use “imperial favorite.” Or favorite victim; the boy did die when he was 18.
I think that last bust that was put up by Metatron was actually a bust of Hadrian’s paramour, Antinous. Surprised he wasn’t mentioned.
Yes he was gay but he was also a pdf file hence why he shouldn't be made a gay icon.😂
Wasn’t his boyfriend a boy as in Hadrian was a PDF
@@jaybee9269 Antinous was as good as a paramour. Hadrian was married, but no kids and Hadrian never stayed very long in Rome. Antinous drowned in the Nile and Hadrian was heartbroken, putting up more statues and temples to the kid, than those for the Emperors.
Eye opener!! Thank you for all the information. 😊
Very good video
Thanks
Metatron, thank you for doing this video. I love the Italian Renaissance.
I would love to see this as a series. Do Leonardo and Carrivaggio.
Yes! More please!
Maybe one on people who were actually trans (or at least lived the life of the other gender, long term)?
Thanks again, mille grazie, Metatron! History presented as such, with no biases attached, pure science, as it should be!
I'm sure many historical figures were gay; there's nothing about homosexuality that either excludes nor encourages genius. What I find annoying, however, is when modern people slap the "gay" label on historic figures as a way to legitimize and promote an agenda.
what blows my mind is why dose it matter who they where sexually attracted to why are thees people so obsessed whit who they want to bang
Christianity has a pretty strong agenda in the West to make sure no one is gay. The Christian agenda also revised history and castrated tons of art throughout history to reinforce that agenda. The dominant culture tries to erase gay people from history or erase the fact a historical person was gay if the person is too well known. Many people laud Alan Turing for his effort in WWII and aiding victory for the Allies. Few people go on to detail how he was then prosecuted by the British government for being gay, forcibly castrated and subsequently committed suicide.
There's also a major agenda on the other side which says that being gay is "unnatural" or that being gay is something "new" in history, only to be found in cultures that fell to "decadence" - but it's not true. Gay people have made major contributions to global history and culture and if "traditional families" are going to be so heavily promoted as "the corner stone of civilization" then it's fair to note the non-traditional people who changed history as well.
As a queer/ questioning person, it annoys me a lot too. There's a big difference between what we actually went through historically, and what is promoted by, well, the promoters. And I wish we would talk about it more realistically. Straight people tend to try and deny/minimize it, and queer folks want to say everyone cool was also gay, now is any of that really necessary? Lol
Instead understanding sexuality isn't a characteristic that imparts ability but merely an idiom of personality.
@@FireflowerDancerMaybe Historically straight people (a term invented by gay people or what you now call queer which I think refers largely to boring ppl with no personality who vaguely had a crush on someone their same sex once often requiring zero personality) tried to hush up things but in 2024 that's certainly not the case.
I agree with the thrust of your argument but honestly rumours of being gay were pretty commonly pushed by enemies
Man these italia spoken poems sound so beautiful it makes me wanna learn the linguo. 😊
Just came back from a vacation there and it’s now interesting to hear the story of the place.
Great video (as always)! You should do a part 2 of this video including Roman emperor Hadrian, also Leonardo Da Vinci, Chevaliere d'Éon and maybe Oscar Wilde (if modern period fits the theme).
and Richard the Lionheart.
Eugene of Savoy
Meybe Queen Christina of Sweden and Julie D'Aubridge. Give me some sapphic women.
Lawrence of Arabia too! Though his sexuality is waay more controversial and even "weird"
Those bell peppers looked very nice. I wonder how they kept fresh in the box.
An interested historical video as always. Thank you very much for keeping to the sources rather than to an agenda. As someone with no strong feelings on the subject, I was just interested in hearing what your team found out.
Wonderful! You pronounce Italian beautifully I know it's your first language, but that takes nothing away from your melodious voice when speaking. I, in comparison, sound like a street vendor from Palermo. If I were a rich man, I would pay you for Italian elocution lessons. Mesmerizing!
Nice video. I like the Sappho story. I kinda get the association between lesbians and prostitutes. If a prostitute was seen as a broken woman in old Greece, then she was only left to find love with women.
Btw, people should google for the paining of Sappho by Auguste Charles Mengin (1853-1933).
I'm glad you liked the video thanks for watching.
Hello Fresh ought to give you a bonus. You made me sorry I don’t live in the continental US because that looked really good.
Can’t a man write a few hundred letters to a friend about how he can’t get him out of his head, with being called gay?
Thank you Metatron for another fascinating video. Even though I was somewhat familiar with some of the details of Michaelangelo and Sappho from my own readings and my college education, it was great to learn more about this subject concerning other historical figures.
Congrats to finishing a game! It's as hard as publishing a book, and possibly even harder!
Thank you very much!
Love that this channel hammers the point that ,unlike any political side would like you to think, truth does not favor or knows any side
"Actually... GAY"
*ominous sound*
Thank you for your accuracy
To many people place modern ideas and ways of thought on people in the past then judge them based on those modern ways of thinking.
At many points in the past the very idea that people would be either straight or gay didn't exist.
Alls I can say after listening to your video is that you are indeed learned on these subject matters.
Thank you for making this video, Metatron. I wonder if Netflix is going to make an actual documentary about any of these people... but I'm not holding my breath.
Better to keep Netflix out of it. Some two decades ago, I would've still trusted BBC with such documentaries, but not any more.
Very interesting video. Thank you Metatron!
Is the musical score in the background "Greensleeves"?
Yes
Yes!
Loved your video as usual. It is SO difficult to look backwards at historical events and persons and be objective, as time and cultures view the past through their own lenses, as you have said many times. Appreciate your efforts though. I know you have probably done a video on this but I am really curious what the line of contact between two classical armies would have looked like. I'm assuming different military styles would have produced different experiences but always wondered how a battle would have looked through the eyes of a common foot soldier.
Edward II of England probably was.
Michael III of Byzantine empire as well
And then there were. Frederick the Great, Hans Christian Andersen, Ludwig the Second and Oscar Wilde
Love listening to your Italian 🎉
Could please someone finally debunk the myth that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. Metatron maybe?
Providing a “correct examplification of fact” is important, but having positive role models and recognition is really cool too.
The one who surprised me the most is Richard Lionheart. The guy had to accuse himself publicly of sodomy to get the pardon of the church.
We want a series thank you
Sorry, but why did you include a portrait of King Jean II of France (1300s) when talking about Jean II of Orleans (1098)?
A slip of the editor. Apologies
I would love if you made a more in depth video about why the Lesbos is often spoken about as the lesbian island. 😊 Love your videos, I learn so much ❤
I don't care about who was or was not gay. But I do enjoy how this impacts people, society, and art (including how things are recorded in writing). It is interesting how society adapts, changes, or pushes back at such things. It could be homosexuality or a new religion or even a new scientific discovery, to name a few such catalysts. So a new series on how "one thing" impacted different societies over the centuries might be very interesting.
Oh goodness! How i feel for those who are named Flora😂😂😂
It’s okay to be Anglo Saxon
I agree (?)
@@metatronyt Bassato
@metatronyt it's a racist dog whistle don't acknowledge it.
England is a *Norman* country!
Who is bro talking to? 😭
Very impressive channel.
When studying art at university I've always had the feeling that Michelangelo, even if was gay, never really consumed his love, as he was very very religious (for what I can remeber).. But, of course (and as it should be, in my opinion) we never discussed this matter in class or read in the books. But still, just a feeling.
It is possible but we may never know.
would love more videos like this
Congrats on landing Hello Fresh!
@metatronyt, Entertaining and informative as ever but I’d like to point out that ‘Gaveston’ is three syllables: gah-vz-ston.
One of the best lectures I've found on historical sexual orientation is Holding It Straight by Dr. Bob Mills. In this lecture he asks and address the question did the people of Middle Ages Europe have a concept of sexual orientation as we do today; i.e. did Medieval people have a concept of gay and straight? The answer he comes to is that Medieval people did have an idea of sexual orientation but it wasn't in terms of attraction to a certain gender or characteristic but a choice between a call to married life or religious life; sexuality or virginity. Its not to say that there weren't ever gay, bi, or queer people until the modern age just how the spectrum worked differently in peoples minds in a historical period. What it says for me is that people have always been people so somethings never change but human experience is nuance by the time, place, and society we are living in, now and in the past.
15:49 I dislike correcting TH-camrs who make English language mistakes when it's not their primary language. But this was kinda funny. A "shark" is a fish that will nomnom your "shank", aka leg. So Edward sadly didn't have extra long shanks, because they were eaten by his extra long sharks.
That jacket your sporting M looks boss!❤
Thanks! It's a 15th century arming doublet based on the paintings by Piero della Francesca.
As a barely literate luddite, it would be nice if you read the english translation after reading the original language. I'm sure it is done for time management, but I often listen to these videos while I am driving or doing chores and I can't read the translation that is on the screen. I'm sure that I am not the only subscriber that does this. Pardon the nit-picking, I'm sure you have more important things to worry about.
When I go to the USA I will try hello fresh, hope they'll be sponsoring you again when that happens
am i the weirdo for not obsessing over what people do in their bedroom ?
No one is here as I explained in the disclaimer.
No, neither do I, but I get annoyed when I hear people pretend there was no homosexuality in the past.
Nope, that’s what you should think. This video is just kind of goofy fun
Oh you're a weirdo alright… but not for that
@@englishguy9680 takes one to know one? :) XX
Thanks for this. It's so refreshing to see honest recounting of actual historical reality instead wishcasting historical figures to be a person contemporary writers (or propagandists) wish they were, whether it is their sexuality, race, etc... Projecting on historical figures various traits that a particular person or group wishes they had in common with themselves is simply an illegitimate distortion of history and historical figures. Without reflecting the reality of the person and when they lived in the context of their world any story about them is merely fiction and that sheds no light on the historical figure, the period in which they lived and is a disservice to people living today.
Edward Long Shark is my favorite King of England. Far superior to King Henry Left Shark.
what about king Samuel Loan Shark?
Now, that was an informative short-form piece on historical figures who are known to have been or were likely to have been same-sex attracted. Refreshing.
20:46 honestly, between abandoning your military campaign with one of your greatest enemies and being gay, which would u be more mad about
As a gay man, the reason why some queer people try so hard to impose modernity on the past is so that they can appropriate their existence through legitimacy. Even I would love to know how gay people like me used to live in the past in varying socioeconomic and cultural contexts. But more often than not people try to look at it more emotionally than rationally. To be honest I do not blame them since, because of the discrimination most still face today, they are trying to find their place in history. Obviously, it can lead to irrationality but I also attribute this to the very basic human need of validation. Nevertheless, I always enjoy your critical take on history and the work you are doing of bringing out the REAL stories is important. Thank you for championing true representation of diverse range of people, it personally makes me feel included.
Sappho- I just remember Xena gifting one of her poems to Gabrielle.
Sapho... I think was bi
very cool video
As a gay person myself and a lover of history, I'm really thankful for this video!
I feel as though this is a polarising topic when honestly it shouldn't be; Not for the reasons people make it out to be, that is. It's hard to know intimate details like sexuality from time periods where homosexuality was criminalised/shunned or otherwise not given written word the way more overt topics of the time were.
But some people seem to be of the belief that because historical figures were not overt the way people can in modern day, that they must have been default straight- forgetting all the ramifications that would have come with being so open in some societies.
It's a blessing that we even have these small pieces of niche history and mainly it's because they happened to be nobles or otherwise written about. I often wonder how many niches of historic LGBTQ cultures we will never, ever know about because they were between common people. How many terms, hidden languages, symbols have we missed that indicated someone was LGBTQ during medieval and further time periods? I suppose we'll truly never know.
In general perception there are 2 positions. They were all gay or they were just very good friends who behaved like a married couple. like friends do
People also often argue that so and so couldn't have been gay because he was married to a woman and had children. There are gay men getting married to women TO THIS DAY, especially in religious communities because that's what is expected of them in their communities. The societal expectations to get married and have children were a lot stronger back then too.
Tchaikovsky was definitely gay.
Wooo new vid i love the new vids everyday its great.
Glad you enjoy it and it's great to have you here. See you tomorrow
I see Michelangelo on your thumbnail, and my art historian's hair starts to rise in the air. He wasn't a gay man - at least not often. Very sombre and serious bloke, by all accounts. Kidding aside, I'd sooner say he was an ascetic personality, i.e. these days they'd be calling him _an incel_ (judging from rather masculine shapes of her female nudes in Capella Sistina, which don't look so masculine when viewed from the floor, it might seem he never saw a naked woman - but mostly people see them as photos in books and that gives the wrong impression; look instead at his sculpture in Medici Chapel, at Dawn and Night - nothing masculine there; some might point a bit strange boobs on Night, but she's meant to be an older woman, and still he flattered her body more than they usually are, or were in the period!), but he had one love, a certain lady whose name I can't remember from the top of my head (but I'll remember it later, once the comment fades into YT abyss... no, wait - Vittoria Colonna!), and they wrote love letters to each other, his were laced with erotic imagery of her body - I've read a few of those while studying art history. However, nobody can tell whether they consummated the relationship. Since I specialise in late medieval art on eastern coast of Adriatic, I can't claim to be an expert in Michelangelo's biography, but with the whole semester allotted to Leonardo, Raphael and Michelangelo, plus reading some excerpts from his notebooks I did get some insight into the matter. Donatello and Leonardo seem more suspicious in homo-erotic tendencies. OK, now I can watch the video and see what you have to say.
EDIT: Michelangelo Buonarroti was an artist with an eye and appreciation for beauty, male and female alike, as well as that of nature. If you read what he wrote to Tomaso, proper methodology would be to compare those to letters and poems he wrote to Vittoria Colonna.
I would actually assume that Michelangelo was gay.
Why ? Because his depictions of men are so lascivious and his depictions of women are not.
Is that proof? Of course not, it's just my personal guess...
You don't seem to have a clue what incel is, you really think anything else inf your comment stays credible?
@@spiderlily723 Absolutely. When I studied art history, then got my masters in the same and doctorate in art history and museology topic, worked on projects related to Late medieval (Gothic) art and architecture for 20 years - the word "incel" didn't even exist. On top of that, I wrote that "these days they would call him an incel" - meaning that most people today wouldn't understand such ascetic, pious, self-denying, work-focused character, not that he "would be an incel". I don't know if there is a word for "voluntary celibate", but not in sense of catholic clergy. Not my speciality.
@@BlackQback”volcel”
@@BlackQback You once again prove you have absolutely no clue what incel means.