When is Enough, Enough? Working After Financial Independence
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2024
- Why would anyone continue to work for money once they've achieved financial independence? In this episode, Eric and Jason discuss this common practice, including why Jason and Lorri currently have part-time jobs post-FI. Topics covered include de-risking retirement, charitable giving, skill-building, and more.
**Show notes: twosidesoffi.com/enough
Timestamps:
00:00 Why earn post-FI?
03:35 BaristaFIRE
05:15 From hobby to income
08:06 Options trading
12:05 FIRE TH-camrs
17:15 De-risking your FI
20:13 Keep my business going?
26:04 Comfort spending more
28:57 Charitable giving
31:05 Earning = contributing?
35:43 Maximizing travel benefits
38:37 Skill development
41:50 Changes I'm expecting
**Show notes, tools, resources + information: twosidesoffi.com
**Our podcast: twosidesoffi.com/podcast/
**Eric’s "NOW" page at 30X40 Design Workshop: thirtybyforty.com/now
**Eric’s TH-cam Channel: thirtybyforty.com/youtube @30by40
**Jason's Blog: thenextphaseisnow.com
#twosidesoffi #financialindependence #firemovement
**Note: This content does not constitute investment advice and is being presented for informational and educational purposes only.
Are you currently earning money after reaching financial independence? What are you doing and why? Let us know
The buffer to sort of future proof our asset base to keep low withdrawal rate, much higher spending than initially budgeted due to lifestyle inflation and inflation itself. Not having to worry about sticking to a budget are few reasons but we no longer save our active income, and just not touching the passive income for the next few years. Also as I transition to a job that is much less demanding and I can fit in 2 hours/day exercises, take time off to travel when I can, flexible working hence I kind of enjoy working atm
I’m a cook for cme for the free food and stock discount , cause food is a big part of retirement
I retired with a plan and stayed retired for 9 months. Then, I got an offer for a part-time job that is pretty good money. Now, after 4 months in that job, I feel just as trapped and frustrated as I did when I decided to retire in the first place. I have a short term plan for how to use the income, but I immediately lost the peace of mind that the retirement gave me for those few months.
You were asking the question why you don’t have as many viewers as other FI channels. I think I know why: your content is intellectually stimulating and is so much more than just explaining 100x over how to save on latte‘s during commute and the concept of compounding.
I mean, if we all just cut out the avocado toast and Starbucks... ;)
Turning 54 soon and I have 35x my annual expenses (actually 40x, but I'd give myself a bit of a raise!), but I keep working for you all since I KNOW the minute I quit the job and start spending, the market will crash, the economy will tank, even more wars will break out across the globe and we will enter an Ursus Vicennium. I don't want to do that to Eric and the rest of the FI community, and so I keep working. You're welcome.
This is us. Debt free, mortgage free and husband retired a year ago early, his govt job called him back to work part time at his discretion at a higher rate of pay due to working in a different department. He’s working 2 days a week at my request and we can leave for weeks at a time to travel. Best of both worlds, I get my space since I work from home and he gets to stay engaged in his field. It’s all good!
FIREd in 2022 and loving it. There are not enough hours in the day to do all the things I want to do and I am able to do now. If some of those things generate money, so be it. It's so liberating when money is not the main thing behind why you do stuff, but it's only a consequence of doing something you enjoy.
Real freedom to me is being able to shift the focus of my day in the middle of it, because I can.
I reached my FI on Jan 1st 2023, I began my RE this past Friday May 3rd 2024. 2023 was the year I turned 55 and I needed the money in my 401k to reach FI using the rule of 55. My net worth was in the knee of the curve and beginning to accelerate. Just waiting the extra 16 months probably gained me another million, my retirement will be very comfortable now. $4.5mil in investable assets, house paid off and very low expenses (solar/home battery, electric cars, very few recurring bills). I won't have to do anything I don't want to do, and my biggest worries now are taxes money management. In hindsight the only thing I would have done different is reducing the contributions to my 401k in my 40's and increasing my after tax investments. I plan to volunteer, but highly doubt I will ever draw a paycheck again.
A lot of this show covered what I suggested in my comment from your last video. So thank you.
It is tough to walk away from the high paying job. Especially while you are still physically capable. And quite young. And the difference of working another 5 years can mean changing other people’s lives too; like your kids, spouse, other family etc.
I look at you two as close friends sharing a comfortable camaraderie.. and we get to peek into your world which is cool. That may be the reason why there's no huge ad revenue!
However i do enjoy and learn from your conversations. Continue all that you do if it stays fun for you two :)
Thanks, Mitchel!
I enjoy these deep discussions on what early retirement may be like. Keep up the good work.
I think it’s fear of the unknown. As we get older, the sense of adventure can wane. We can settle into a comfort zone and fear disturbing that. I’m experiencing that but I’m doing my best to push through that feeling and retire at the end of this year.
I love the game. Worked as a software engineer in 14 startups in my career. Retired 22 years ago at 45. I kept creating products and working with startups, but I no longer had to be limited to huge profit margin products that could support a bunch of employees and investors. It's freeing and a lot more fun. And I could do other things like slow flipping houses. Weird thing is some of these small niche products I've done have done better than expected. And because I'm doing those products purely for fun there no pressure to hire marketing and other employees so expenses are super low, basically zero. So there's this weird profit think of making $100k with $0 expenses vs the startup thing of having to make $10 million just to break even. Almost all of the 14 startups I was in never made any profit. Some huge revenue, but no profit.
Love Brian and Carrie!! Also love Grounded Life Finances.
Reached FI a few years ago. RE’d last year. Started my own business and am doing incredibly well. My husband retired in January. The question of how much is enough is valid. It’s hard to walk away when your skill set is still desired. A lot of what I make goes to helping the kids and family members. My friends say I’m nuts and to give it up.
I will have reached my FI number end of this year and will continue to work for another two years for the following reasons.
1. My wife wants to continue working until our kid is out of college
2. My preferred racing hobby takes a little bit more cash for me to feel comfortable retiring at the end of the year
3. Gives a little more buffer and peace of mind
Although my husband & I have watched you guys for a few years as we went through our own FIRE transition, this is the first time I’m commenting. We stopped watching for a while, but your most recent videos with Laura taking the big step really resonated with us. Regardless of how financially prepared you feel you are, that last step is HARD. I respect Eric (1) being totally honest about not having it figured out, (2) and allowing us to see that even YOU struggling with unplugging.
It was important to hear you acknowledge that things can change (and becoming unexpectedly happier with work is actually a great thing). Even in a strong marriage, everyone is different. The key is to talk about things and enjoy watching your partner discover things about themselves through this process. For us, it hasn’t been an immediate tap that got turned off. The last few years have been what we call our “testing phase” and we’ve enjoyed learning more about ourselves and each other in the process.
Thank you for willingness to share, the effort that I know it takes to create this content, and the quality of the discussion. We wish you continued good fortune.
I enjoy this channel because it is a personal account of the journey as opposed to finance bros spouting off numbers and figures. My plan is to retire early at the end of 2025 as the financial part will be set. I've chatted with retirees and some have stated that they've sufferred an identity crisis and I've taken that into account as well. I have a f/t job and had a wedding DJ business that I closed in 2022 in order to start a retro radio station in 2023. My strategy being to have the station's brand established by the time I retire from my f/t job. I wanted to create a nostalgic atmosphere for people to escape to whenever they need a break from the world's craziness. I may also get a p/t job for 2 days/week doing something to keep my mind sharp.
So timely! I retired ~45 days ago and I am wrestling with this topic. I am so excited to watch this and grateful to you both.
@brdoboy - Congratulations! We're 2.5 months out. I'm curious what you are wrestling with? What to do. Whether it's worth it? The commitment? etc.
@@susanharkema2888 good question! And congrats to you also!
For me, staying busy hasn't been the issue. As others have said, I can't imagine how I ever had time to work.
I think it's been more about the mental shift from the accumulation phase to decumulation. During accumulation, you get dopamine hits with each paycheck which tell you that you are saving and on the way to hitting your FIRE goal. Once you retire, that dopamine source disappears overnight even if you are confident that on paper you have enough.
As a goal oriented person (I imagine most people in this community are!) I have started to look for other milestones I can strive for which will give me a similar reward structure. So far that's been tackling my backlog of projects around the house, but that list is finite (despite the best efforts of my wife to keep adding to it... 😅).
Congratulations!!
Thank you both for taking the time you do for this passion project. I’m probably close to a decade away from financial independence but your channel has been a great source of inspiration.
Such an interesting question to quantify. I like to think about it as "At what point am I working for free?". That is, to earn money I not only won't spend, but wasn't even required as a buffer - because the income generated from my nest egg was already sufficient. Easy to think about looking backwards on your death bed to know that number and age you should have retired at, and overall, I believe this is how DWZ book framed things.
On certain projects that are not stressful, this isn't a big deal to me - though on stressful ones (like right now for me!) ... that thought of enduring something I didn't need to eats away at the soul a little! "Dude - you could have retired years earlier, concentrated on your fitness/health and hit the ground running rather than suffering through for money that in the end only satisfied a third unnecessary buffer".
It is so easy to consider adding buffers on buffers as you say, pushing the goalposts to satisfy security/safety concerns. Some of that can still make a lot of sense depending on your risk tolerance and fear of uncertainty. Though, I think ... having confidence in some of the certainties of life and your goals for retirement help to quantify the 'enough' factor and understand what levels of buffers truly are unnecessary. I like your thoughts around imagining daily life in retirement. Bringing clarity to what your average day in retirement looks like, average week ... then thinking seasonally. Important thought exercises to do. I've realized some of my favorite things to do that fill a lot of time on a daily basis are free or quite inexpensive - walking, hiking, exercise. While I enjoy some luxuries in life like many, those tend to be seasonal - not those daily inexpensive things that I enjoy. Looking at things with that lens it helps dispel fears and quantify whether certain buffers are really necessary or not.
Appreciate your content!
I like your concept of "working for fee" I may steal that for my channel.
Thought provoking comment, thank you. The comments on this channel are the icing on the cake, love it ❤
@@TheRetirementality have at 'er! Just checked out your channel. That statement I'm almost sure comes from the book Die With Zero IIRC. That's how the author framed earning money that never gets spent. You're essentially volunteering at some point in your career without knowing when that exact moment is. FIRE at least attempts to identify the 'enough' factor. DWZ speaks to 'knowing your peak' in terms of net worth, that is - the moment you should pivot to spending down rather than accumulating.
Thank you and love the dialogue! Learning each time.
You're very welcome!
Another great video guys . Love it. “What does good look like . . . “ 🤔 I smell some DBS thinking there 😂 Jason!!
This was a great episode guys, thank you. Issues on my plate too.
Thanks!
The past few episodes (and feedback) have revealed a lot about the non-financial challenges round “RE” side of FIRE. I LOVED the “recreation employment” comments by the way. I Too am a recovering leader of a large scientific organization (am I seeing a pattern here?), and can relate to the challenges of leaving a lifetime of training behind. Potential for further discussion:
1. What does recreational employment or retirement look like for you? What is the TRUE motivation (self-reflection required). How might it change over the next 1 year and 3 years.
2. How will you resolve the inner conflict of going from an expert in your field to adopting a beginner’s mindset again? It is VERY hard shedding that skin. Do you comfortably jump in to new experiences? Are you a lifetime learner? Can you happily exist as that person?
It’s a journey, not a destination.
Great video guys. One thing that would be interesting would be a “then vs now” video where you take some snippets of earlier videos where you had thoughts or ideas that as time has progressed your thoughts have changed on the topic. I’m about your age and have been retired 6 years and definitely agree it’s taken that long to really smooth out the day to day groove and settle in.
Thank you, guys, for another great video!
Thanks for watching!
@@TwoSidesOfFI My pleasure, indeed.
I really appreciate when people who have reached FIRE can share their experiences with us. I suppose my inner "internet retirement police" kicks in when I see creators who clearly need the money from the full time content creation business that they are running. I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between that, and the kind of content you two are putting out. Which is why I don't watch their videos but I do watch yours. I feel like there should be a different term for "my full time job is nontraditional" that those types of creators can use so they don't come off as disingenuous.
Thanks 🙏
Wow I am also in the same boat. I retired first of March, though I am still working as a consultant for my previous company, but only for 10 to 15 hours a week from home. So far it is great. I am doing it because it stimulates my brain for a bit and it is low stress. I am also doing it to keep my skills sharp in case of a big market downturn. I plan on doing it for a couple years, but that is flexible.
Thanks for raising the issues of how much is enough and the struggle to get over it and spend.
I’m retiring soon and can’t mentally get over the hurdle to remodel a kitchen even though we have the cash and it doesn’t affect my FI number really at all.
Glad to have a federal pension. It will cover my expenses. All investments will be gravy.
Great!
I wish you guys the best in your travels. If you guys stop by in Malaysia while going through your South East Asia journey, please reach out.
I will reach FI in 2029. I can’t wait. I have no plans on doing dentistry again. I love writing and do so every day. I earn no money from it and will continue to do so for the rest of my life. The rest of my time I will spend doing home projects and having fun.
Fellow dentist (endodontist) here. Could retire now but haven’t found where else I would get my intellectual stimulation.
Soon, I am sure!
Jason here - Heidi, you raise a great point, and one that comes up often from viewers working in a variety of different professions. For me, I continue to read primary scientific literature and talk with friends and former colleagues about topics of interest. I won't say it's the same as actually working in the field but it definitely scratches an itch. Besides, I seem to find myriad ways to fill the rest of my time anyhow :) Best wishes to you!
Thank you, Jason!
Love the B&C content. You might want to find their ‘day in the life of’ post. Basically YT is a big part time job for them. Editing is how they spend all their mornings and arvo is life admin and filming content. Is that what Laura wants for her RE stage 😂?
Thank you as always for the great content! Eric, you mentioned a travel channel you and your wife follow. I did not see it in the show notes can you share? (You would like to do similar; your wife believes it would be just work)
Forgot to add that, sorry! It’s, “Brian and Carrie” (No Borders)
Great show guys. Always look forward to a new episode. BTW Eric, I don’t think I could walk away form a 10-15% commission on a 10-15M mansion in Maine. Keep up the great work.
I'd be interested in what the books on options trading were referenced at the beginning of the video and if they were helpful.
Having a child who is still in primary school and parents who are not strong financially, it is difficult to set on a number where I can stop working. I know if it was just me to consider I would have retired already.
If the business becomes another job I'd suggest tripling the bar of the clients you take and discount to allow them to afford it. Explaining to them, traditionally paying X would get Y, but I am decreasing my price to A, but it comes with limitations of B,C,D, and if you're not happy with that I can refer to M firm or you can pay X.
You'll find a lot of clients who are very flexible around your needs because they know they're getting quality & expertise outside of their budget.
My business has transitioned to be 100% passive (no clients)…much better this way!
Great insights as always guys, I appreciate that you each challenge ideas and that you are open to new perspectives as they make sense. Eric you mentioned numerous times about how life is short and you want to enjoy the next phase starting in your 50’s while your health is good. That is one of the magical questions, how will our health evolve. Last night we passed a car accident on the way home from dinner, and it was bad. For those people their lives changed in that moment. My siblings are in their mid to late 60s, I am seeing their health decline. At 57, I still am under the illusion that I will be running triathlons into my 60S. Will this be the case? Or will I encounter heart disease and a hip replacement which is what my brother has been dealing with over the last 2 years. I hit my FI with a buffer, but man I would like the additional buffer, and work is less stressful now knowing that if I get released for some reason I am good. And I still want to work….all the things you both are going through is interesting as I think through the time is precious vs working longer questions.
Nailed it… time is precious, priceless and the future is unknown. Way too many examples of folks in our lives that “aged” faster than they expected and is top of mind for us on when we will RE.
I would stay away from options. You can lose a lot of money really fast.
Modgepodge rules. Still popular on Christian retreats! Even the bottle looks 70s
This is often the case with people who FIRED, they are still earning income even some of them earn a lot of income. It just makes me wonder if the 4% withdrawal rule ACTUALLY works because no one is living by it 😂
I enjoy your conversations but like many people, I don't have time to watch full episodes. I think your channel would explode if you had your chapters as individual videos.
Mod Podge 🤪 is the main brand for decopage these days! ha
Jason - I'm surprised you didn't like options more. That who world is on my "one day I'll learn about that" list... But they make it seem so technical that I am curious about your experience.
Whatever you do, seek to minimize regret and maximize happiness. Memento mori.
14:58 You are doing nothing wrong. The big FIRE youtubers probably have an info product like a course or spreadsheet that they drive traffic through the podcast or youtube channel. Also lots of people get to FIRE via Real Estate and things like that and enjoy sharing their expertise on those topics.
Besides, once you are FIREd, it's all extra money anyway. You are doing things because of the social value or sense of purpose you derive from them. Money is just an extra consequence.
The thing is, I'm better at my job than I am at most other things. So even if I'll reach FIRE soon--as long as I mostly enjoy it, it would be hard to find something else where I'm contributing that level of skill/experience. After I got burned out, I rearranged it into a flexible system with less ongoing stress. (I work PRN, "as needed," in healthcare in three different places.) So maybe I'll keep working until I can honestly see my skills/knowledge dropping, and/or I get fed up with every healthcare system I'm involved with. And maybe I need to develop more other interests in the meantime.
It's a personal decision whether one's contributions are what defines your happiness. I can similarly say that I was better at my former job than I am at most other things. But knowing that fact didn't drive me to stay employed in that field. Given that you mention burnout +and stress - which I understand 100% - I'm glad to learn that you've made changes to reduce these negatives. But I'd suggest thinking about what else you might spend your time doing post-FI besides the job you're in now. There are many ways we can each make contributions besides in our primary careers. I wish you all the best -Jason
I do come for your content because you don't focus on how to build wealth which everyone already does. You guys talk more about the finer details of what does it look like after you retire and the final preparations. Not something I see a lot of content about.
thanks very much for your support
Guys!!!!! It’s now called Mod podge. 😂
TIL!
Why calculate the value you get from work solely in terms of income? Couldn’t you make much less and keep doing the parts you love for social connections, meaning, etc?
Depends on the job.
You're referring to "life-changing money". Can you explain how much this is?
Differs for every individual…right?
I worked an equivalent $15 an hour part time job back in HS and college. These part time jobs are mostly hell. I really don't understand leaving a well paying career to take a minimum to low wage job. Sounds like poor planning?
Exactly! As the mom of a current barista, I wonder how long actual "barista FIRE" people last doing the job just for fun. Maybe it looks cool, but it's actually really, really stressful. But gift shops and entrance booths at state & national parks seem dominated by retirees, so maybe they're onto something.
If you could somehow work for yourself doing odd-jobs here and there, I feel like that would be the ideal Barista-fire type post-working lifestyle. Working an hourly rate, being a subordinate to the expectations of someone less educated or experienced than yourself is a terrible situation after having more respect, money and autonomy in your career.
So, has this vodcast officially become the same side of FI?
Not yet! Eric is still working -J