Star Trek Section 31 is where California gets unleashed on the Star Trek universe. Section 31 one though has always been one of the more complex elements of Star Trek, which is misinterpreted by the people who don't even understand the Federation. This section 31 movie seems to have stripped the IP of anything related to that, rather than a morally complex look at what is required of a civilisation instead we get fun and joy! We have a James Bond character in a story that even IGN ranks a 2. Is it time for Hollywood to get rid of people who can't create anything more complex than a writers room conversation? Let me know your thoughts down below and as always, thanks for watching :)
Gene wanted people to feel uplifted by his work. He was a man who believed if you looked towards the future you should feel good about it. He loved the commradery of the military which was was part of. He believed in people, in goodness, and he saw in the future a world with people who no longer cared about anothers looks, their backround, earth became a world who cared only about your skills. Thats antithetical to modern Hollywood. Gene was not involved when section 31 was added to the show. He would have hated it. He hated everything it represents. In Gene's vision he saw every solution could have a peaceful resolution with the right minds and the right amount of time. He would dislike them partaking in espionage and murder to get a resolution. As he would put it, if you were not able to have similar values to the federation, you did not belong in the federation. I hated it being added to deep space nine. I dont like DS9 in general because it was focused on religion and that was sort of pushed aside by humanity in startrek. Making the black space jesus bothered me, but at least the episodes shunned the concepts of section 31. In 1998 when they added it to the story, things were going on in the US that was being pushed into the show and its why I liked Janeway's adventures better. Sisco was great though, until he became space jesus. Just a Dad trying to save his new job and look after his edgy teen on a space station suffering after a horrible war that only recently cooled off some. IN 1993 the government killed 76 people in Waco, india and Pakistan were threatening each other and the world trade center was bombed. It was a time when there was distrust in the government and likewise they placed distrust in the federation for the show. They were not as on the nose and thats the problem with new trek, incapable writers don't even know what subtlety is.
Its actually quite an apt title, in UK law a section 31 is in place to protect children and i honestly believe modern rubbish like this is definitely harmful for kids to watch.
Starfleet was incredibly meritocratic. Deanna Troy failed her simulation test for promotion to Commander until she realized that the only way to save the ship was to send Geordi on a suicide mission. She had to learn that in order to be a leader, she had to be willing to sacrifice a friend for the greater good, and moreover that it would be his duty as a Starfleet officer to comply. See, NuTrek likes to think it's grim and dark but it's just juvenile and edgy. But someone having to learn that leadership means you have the weight of thousands of lives on your shoulders, that's actually dark and moreover an important moral lesson.
Kirk would have passed without sacrificing Scotty just send in a technician that works on it on the daily why sacrifice the veteran engineer with experience
@@poijnve3912Could be! That’s why you always surround yourself with the best and/or successful people. They do the most beneficial work for you AND your company/team. That’s why you promote people on meritocracy and NOT equity!
"And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain" New Trek we'll never come close to anything like this
@@rigell2764 That was one of the best trek episodes ever (well, really more than that one episode for the entire arc). Made my stomach turn at how cavalier Garak said it & with a smirk on his face for that extra bit of irony.
Just my opinion, but that DS9 episode was one of the most powerful episodes of any Star Trek series, from the original series to Voyager. Just my opinion
100% 👍! It’s astounding how much better the writing, “& even acting”, the TNG/DS9/VGR series had over the absolute crap being produced now. I guess they’re waiting for all of us ‘original’ guys to die off so they can produce something a “Star Trek” title on it without having ANYTHING RELEVANT from the actual series
When I was a young lad watching Sesame Street in the 1970s, there were times when they didn't have enough cookies to go around and had to share and divide them using simple math. My nephews' generation had Barney, and when they didn't have enough cookies someone would magically find another batch of them so nobody had to share or do any math. These writers are from my nephews' generation, and it shows.
LMAO! probably true as well.... to me this is a 16 year old with daddy issues level of writing.... BOY, DAD DIED YEARS AGO, GROW UP!! ....AND KNOCK IT OFF WITH THIS MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE BS, LISTEN TO SOME ZEPPELIN FFS!
It's worth, the generation making these shows, what it gives their own cookie to the less privileged and go without... And then, they would get shamed for being sad about not having a cookie
"Do you know what the problem with Starfleet Command is? It's EARTH! When you look outside of Starfleet Headquarters you see PARADISE! And it is EASY to be a Saint in Paradise!" - Sisko That sums it up perfectly.
Na, why wouldn't the federation be a paradise everywhere? Literally every place the Federation was at should have industrial replicators. Ds9 writers just couldn't envision that kind of society.
@@havingfun-u4gits honestly why i dont like ds9, its a deconstruction of star trek saying everything about star trek is fake & stupid revealing in its darkness.
@ Give the w0 kie w0 kes a success, even not of their own making, and they will quintuple down. Pukehard S3 came out of Kurtzman's production company, so its 99.9% certain he claimed its success and used it to get S31 made. Yes, Yeoh got that Oscar, but she won that long before Pukehard S3. I doubt that gave Kurtzman that much negotiation power at that point. This is why you cannot give Kurtzman, or Disney, ANY win, no matter if was one not of their making. If you have your hand on their throat keep squeezing until they stop breathing. Don't let go just because they give you something decent for a change. Or you will have to do it all over again.
The showrunners: "It will be fun." Audience: "Does it ever cross your mind that we want to see something complex, dark and intriguing, instead of FUN???"
That's literally what they were going for with _Picard,_ though lol They failed at that, and are now trying fun again... It's difficult to fathom how anyone working at Paramount/CBS deserve respect.
That argument could be made about the remains of Trek, Star Wars, the MCU, the DCU, Indiana Jones, Willow, LOTR,... Is there ONE IP they HAVEN'T destroyed? Please feel free to name one, if you can. (In the words of Darth Vader, "Now their failure is compleTTT".
Honestly YES he did, but then again he knows how to think! Not just push garbage ideas that NEVER work! What I keep asking myself is, why do not all these fools simple reach out and hire him to look over scripts and story ideas BEFORE they are even worked on to see if he thinks they will be successful! It would save them MILLIONS!
@ Let me explain my respect for Disparu a little further. He related it to serving in the military and how all societies need those who are willing to do the dirty job of dealing with bad situations to allow others to be safe. I am a veteran, and it is right in line with my thought process when I enlisted. Whereas you are right that it applies to all of them, I personally truly noticed and respect that he could see it the way he did on this particular show. He also is the person who helped me 'appreciate' She Hulk. I looked at it as a parody of feminism. It's hilarious if you can see it that way.
The Operative in the movie 'Serenity' does it so well, at the end when the hero Mal, is beat, broken and at the end he asks The Operative, 'where do you fit into this utopia, you murdered, kill buthcered.' and The Operative just laughs and tells Mal 'There is no place for me there, i do what i do so the innocent cant live where i can not.' its done so well.
I thank you for broaching the subject. Perhaps the Feral Historian could do a good piece on the concept, but it's just me here and I would like to juxtapose the Operative with Section 31. Start with Beowulf. The hero gets hired by a bunch of navel-gazing pacifist hippies who are getting attacked every night by the monster named Grendel. They are incapable of defeating it, or even resisting. So Beowulf does their dirty work, slays Grendel and his mother to boot, but is not welcome to join the hippies. It is that ideal that both Section 31 and The Operative embody. The difference is that the people of Section 31 know what it is they defend while The Operative only believes he knows. In reality the Alliance is best described as being Mal's definition of a government, a group of people largely ungoverned. It is an expansionist, statist cabal unashamed to use underhanded or grossly immoral tactics while it projects an aura of utopian idealism. When Mal reveals to The Operative the exact nature of The Alliance's complicity in creating the Reavers it is an epiphany as he realizes that he's been duped.
@@Fred_Lougee That's a bit different, though. Beowulf is an outsider, and he doesn't want to join them in the first place. He's already basically king of another land, he's just there as an honored guest. Perhaps if Beowulf had been one of the 'hippies' (which isn't right, either, they're still Vikings, and thus violent warriors, they just aren't strong enough to defeat Grendal and need a man who is essentially a demi-god to do so) then maybe you'd have a point about him rising up to defend his companions and being shunned for it. But you've completely misrepresented the entire myth.
I enjoyed much of Andromedas five seasons….. But how did firefly get cancelled in the middle of one?! It certainly would have been better and the ‘Serenity’ movie proved that!
I'll go back even further in history. Doesn't matter if one is religious or not but most people are familiar with Moses leading his people to the promised land. He was unable to enter himself at the end. Some of us in life are just meant to hold and secure the gate open for others to enter. We're not meant for Utopia.
What kills me about the marketing for this abysmal trashfire is the desperate nature it has to try and appeal to the mainstream. That whole "it's the guaridans of the galaxy" bit - before I saw that it just takes the aspects of Section 31 and tears it apart - had my skin crawling. Section 31 is nothing like a James Gunn movie. If you think it is, then ask when was the last time James Gunn decided "I'll poison a guy preemptiely so that when he meets with his people it'll poison them and then lead to the destruction of their whole species" because that's Section 31. they're the black ops of the Federation, they do what is necessary to make the Federation Free and they're reviled by the main cast of the series for that reason. It shouldn't be compared to anything bright and flashy. It should be seen as something horribly dark and gritty.
@@muigokublack6487it is ends justify the means kind of thing. Looks like noble sacrifice if ends come to pass and monstrous if they do not. Many communists geniunly believed in soviet state and send people to gulags thinking that bright future would be worth it in the end. Where they nescessery monsters? Most terrible crimes are commited in the name of greater good.
Well .. there was a time when she was a good draw. In the late 90’s. But modern Star Trek has completely misused her. If she was the lead in Discovery that show *might* have been better (yeah, no it wouldn’t but ….) instead that bloody awful space Jesus.
To be fair Starfleet was an elite organization, often with diplomatic power of its own, even "exploration vessels" possesed pretty serious military power, and a single ship could basically conquer a less developed civilisation on its own. Thats why they had Prime Directives. And a single starfleet captain going rogue could lead to very serious consequences.
This is where Enterprise showed these elements. They were trying to be the good guys. And what did they get out of it. Aliens that attacked the ship for no reason. They got boarded multiple times. Starfleet slowly stopped not being prepared, for all situations.
@@mbob4337 This is such a woke modern day audience take on star trek. They didn't attack those ships for no reason, the 'aliens' were not savages that need a 'heavy hand' to control them. Starfleet was the Is real of the quadrant. They were an expansionist empire that infiltrated and surrounded their neighbours same as any other. Look at Bajor, that is a prime example of a world that wanted to be free, achieved it, but then got surrounded by starfleet 'out of a desire to stay free' and was sucked into it. Then they turned into a vassal for federation wars and colonization projects. Sounds more like NATO, something that is anything but peaceful. The dominion wars were caused by the federation expansionism in the gamma quadrant, not the ferengai, not the romulan, not the cardassians. Out of all the races operating through the wormhole it was the federation's precence that was viewed as the hostile one.
Damn straight! The WHOLE premise of Sec31 in DS9, was that NO ONE could identify who,what they were and/or they existed! Sooooo…., let’s just give I.D. badges for all of our secret organization operatives! These writers are SO INCOMPETENT it’s hilarious
"There is no Headquarters, no paper trails" when they went into that section 31 guys head. They are meant obe in th shadows and you know secret and the boogie man . not Men in black who don't make you forget they exist
See; I could buy Section 31 operating more openly in the 23rd century with its own ships, bases, badges (which are more high tech than Starfleet ones, go figure), etc., if they hadn't already shown Section 31 100 years beforehand already operating cloak-and-dagger prior to the founding of the Federation. ST:ENT solidified that as Section 31's modus operandi. Then STD comes along and implies that they went from cloak-and-dagger to blatantly out in the open back to cloak and dagger. MAKE IT. MAKE. SENSE.
@@MrMikellsof88 Not only that, but Bashir was a fanatic when it came to the genre of spies and undercover work. You don't think that he would have known about Section 31 were there ever a period in history where they operated openly?
If they had just shown Starfleet Intelligence as the acceptable face that operates openly, and Section 31 as the deniable face of the same thing, that would work. Having officers who wear Intelligence insignia, but some of them occasionally get told to go black and get things done, yeah, that could work. Instead they go with the worst idea.
The politics of Star Trek at it's best, are nuanced and subtle... I'm reminded of the quote from Sisko; "On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well it's _easy_ to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise! Out there, in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet! Out there, there are no saints! Just people! Angry, scared, determined people, who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"
One of the issues that constantly comes up with "New Trek" is that the writers also don't understand military structure. All the original series were written with the Starfleet personnel acting in a military fashion. Rank means something, the chain of command is an important to make sure things get done in an orderlly fashion, and insuboratination is often punished unless very specific circumstances occur. You can't write a military based organization without understanding how and why it is organized that way. Even Commader James Bond follows orders (unless he is the modern crybaby version). Bottom line is, nothing they will make will be worth spilled salt as long as they have no understanding of how and why Starfleet acts as it does.
That’s because most of the people who worked on TOS had ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE. The writers on new Trek’s military experience probably amounts to playing Call of Duty one time at their conservative friend’s house.
This guy is one of thee best movie critics as he examines the meanings within a movie. He goes beyond plot and character devices just as he did with Wicked. The closest critic I can think of is some of Pauline Kael's work. He would be a tremendous critic of literature as he does such a close reading.
The others producers and execs despise TNG as much as Kurtzman does, sadly. All of them know that we don't want more grimdark Star Trek, but they simply refuse to create anything that Gene would actually endorse.
Honest question, how can you stand watching lower decks at all? The constant shouting, quips, and high speed dialogue; it is the antithesis of Star Trek.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God It has its moments. Season 1 really was terrible but it's not as bad as any of the modern live action shows/movies. I found that seasons 2-4 actually had some moments where I thought that at least the writers were trying to make real Trek. If anything, if they weren't constrained by the need to be a 'comedy' then I genuinely believe that later season LD would have become more of a genuine TAS analogue.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God you have to treat it for what it is, a silly cartoon. Its more true to the original trek formula then anything new trek has done and it has tons of tng references and even has had a bunch of the tng, ds9, and voyager actors guesting on episodes.
Discard season 3 was just memberberries distracting people from its dire plot, and Lower Drecks ws immature garbage, Ricky and Morty inspired Rick & Morty garbage.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God To be fair, I have been rewatching alot of TNG era Trek recently, and there are plenty of episodes that had me laughing all the way through... Quark is always hilarious (recently watched the episode where he takes over his own Klingon house) Garak's quips were usually very funny. Reginald Barclay did his fair share of comic relief "I am the Goddess of Empathy..." - or Worf "Sir, I protest. I am _not_ a merry man!"... O'Brian having to explain to a Cardassian scientist that just because he gets annoyed with her, doesn't mean he wants a relationship 😂 The low ranked crew members in Voyager; Good Shepherd were very similar to the characters in Lower Decks... Lower Decks is not supposed to be taken 100% seriously, but still had it's share of serious Trek moments; For example when the USS Cerritos saves the USS Archimedes in 2x10 - or when the California Class team up to take on the malfunctioning Texas Class in 3x10 - imho that was fantastic Trek. Mariner (who I found annoying at first) becomes much more likeable once you realise her mindset - She is miserable outside of Starfleet...but also miserable as a high ranked member of Starfleet - she purposefully tries to maintain her low ranked status. Shouting, quips, and high speed dialogue are not unique to Lower Decks.
A movie based on a character from the Discovery show that did so poorly it was removed from canon. Therefore this movie does not actually have any meaning, and the Kurtzman franchise is over.
I am really impressed by your capacity to put so much thought into so much sh*t over such a long time. I realize that I have given up. I become unwilling to think any more about the people whose worst nightmare is probably a (not so unrealistic...) world in which the other side does what they have been doing for some time now. They will be gone in three to five years, the rest of the world will just trample on them. Your videos are nearly the only ones about this which I can still watch. Being so much fun to listen to makes the dreadful subject bearable for a few minutes.
they didn't, they are on record as to how the writers of Kurtzmen era write star trek: They ask ppl what episode to watch, borrow the dvd sets, and then on friday night have a viewing party where they get drunk and high and skim through 3 or 4 episodes of "favourites" from the dvd. That's why all the writing is just memberberries, it simply has older characters showup without any idea of who they are or how they should act....and then it kills them off cause what easier way to make "YOUR STORY" seem important and cannon than to say "IT SHOWS WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR FAVOURITE CHARACTERS U HAVE TO WATCH IT".
These writers don't have the testicular fortitude to understand the DS9 spy episodes. Not just Section 31, but the one where Sisko ends up allowing Garak to commit a false flag op, killing a Romulan senator, in order to drag them into the war.
A war the Romulans were more than prepared for, as if they wanted to fight the Dominion and only just needed the excuse of the death of the senator that prevented them going to war to finally enter it.
You know what really gets my goat about this. The writers who did good Star Trek are still very much alive. Why is nobody hiring those people? or consulting with them at the very least?
Because they're not trying to make Star Trek. They're trying to take something that has billions of viewers and force feed them bullshit that they want them to believe. It's called societal conditioning.
But we need Star Trek for the modern audience... who cares if it kills the franchise and alienate the core fanbase. Well Trek ended with Enterprise s4e21. Everything else since including the Enterprise final episode has been crap.
"Brat" in "bratwurst" is how the sausage, or "wurst", is cooked, being pan-fried. So, using "brat" means they're in the frying pan one step from the fire.
Their idea of suffering is if someone disagrees with them, about anything. They have to Google what the word "No" means, because they've literally never heard it before, and once they realize what it means, they suffer from PTSD. Dunning-Kruger developed their theory by studying these people.
It's wild that they just never made any more Star Trek, eh? I mean, Enterprise wasn't quite so hot, but you'd have thought that the soulless corporate masters would demand more be made. Somehow they held off though. And they NEVER MADE ANY MORE STAR TREK.
My prediction: Section 31 are actually the REAL good guys keeping the Federation together, and regular Starfleet officers will be forced to acknowledge this, yet cover it all up making them morally dubious. It's just like the other Star Show...
You really nailed the complex nature of Section 31. Well done! As a DS9 and life long Star Trek fan, this video is perfect in explaining the moral quandary that is Section 31. Very well made mate! The clips you included from DS9 are perfect for reminding the audience exactly why Section 31 was so relevant to the entire arch of Star Trek. Fantastic work!
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that as it's a well established and used and abused hollysht power-scheme... to push their half digested gut products, whilst high on every drug available.
Robert Myer Burnett for sure, along with the creator of Star Trek: Continues Vic Mignogna, which has been the best Star Trek since the end of Enterprise. These two men have a clear understanding of Star Trek and would be invaluable in ensuring the quality of anything being created.
@@greyTigerGames For sure RMB should be put on any Trek project as a continuity consultant. But that's in the same vein as saying that Tom Shippey shouldn't have been sacked by Amazon as the Tolkien expert. Vic would be a good edition to official Trek alumni, however with his ongoing legal issues I very much doubt anyone would hire him. He's even having dialogue he voiced in video games retroactively replaced (TOS-era captain of PC ship in STO). He's been given the Johnny Depp treatment. Alec Peters burned that bridge when he tried to profit off Trek, and burned the bridge with fans when his antics resulted in Paramount cracking down hard on fan productions.
"We are the sin eaters. It means that we take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us, so that the rest of our cause can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible, and absolutely necessary." ―Eric Byer's: The Bourne Legacy
Strange new worlds went from someone seeing fandom really liking Christopher Pikes character, to an entire episode where everyone must sing to communicate. Think about that
My favourite example of this moral quandry is from Exile's Honor, a book by Mercedes Lackey set in the Heralds of Valdemar. Alberich is asked to become an agent due to his unique background and abilities. His reasoning for accepting is "Someone must do the job. Either someone else, someone innocent with ideals that will be crushed or myself, whose hands are already stained with blood. Adding a few more blotches won't make a difference."
I have a dnd Character who's essentially this entire premise. He does the dirty work so others don't have to. Let the paladin live up to his ideals, win the moral victory. He'll be there in the background, making sure the victory is absolute
Bashir did not change his mind towards S31 as the show goes on as you claim, the plot finishes when he and Miles kill Sloan using their tactics and suffer the mental consequences about what he did
Technically, Miles and Bashir didn’t kill him, Sloan, like any spy, took a suicide pill (or neuro implant that automatically activated upon his capture that basically was a suicide pill)
@Disparu said near the end of the video that Section 31 is "a clandestine spy movie". I heard that S31 have their own comm badges, uniforms, starships and fly their own colours while being known to the general public.... doesn't sound very clandestine to me.
It is interesting how in Picard season 3 they dealt with the fallout of the Section 31 virus that ended the Dominion War. When Picard talks about how the Federation “helped” the Founders cure the virus that was killing them he has no idea it was the Federation that infected them with the virus in the first place. In fact, he seems shocked that the Federation would even do something like that. But that is the difference between good writing and understanding the world you are writing for and whatever STD and Section 31 is.
If we're going to compare Section 31 to something in the U.S., it would be more like the NSA that wasn't acknowledged to exist for years after its creation. I'll admit that I've never much liked Section 31, but it worked in DS9 because of how it was used. I think it would be difficult to make a whole show about Section 31, rather than have them be in the background of a larger story. Like happened with the Borg, the more you shine the light on them, the less powerful they are as a plot.
This was one of the best descriptions/analysis of Section 31 from Trek lore. I would probably agree with your take, but I think that a lot of the Federation believe in the moral framework, even if it caused harm to the Federation. An example of this was Picard letting the Romulans know that the Federation was experimenting with a type of cloaking. This then raises the question of whether those officers would maintain this stance if it meant not only damage but the destruction of the Federation. I think that in that circumstance, many, if not most, would actually break their convictions to save the Federation, as Sisko did when he killed the Romulan diplomat in "In the Pale Moonlight" to get the Romulans to join the war against the Dominion. Anyway, I got more from this than from any new Trek since Enterprise.
The idea of Section 31 is completely antithetical to what Trek was intended to be. The original vision was that we evolved as a planet to not need that kind of organization. Unrealistic? In today's world, yes. But not impossible. Section 31 should have been an upstart organization in Enterprise that was squashed.
To be honest, I haven’t always agreed with your opinions, “mostly but not EVERYTIME”, but you knocked this one out of the ballpark, Sir! They OBVIOUSLY aren’t producing movies/tv shows/series for profit anymore, as 90+%, realize how easy it would be to make what the average ‘John Q’ audience wants! The amount of $ they could bring in for making an average or OK Star Trek based on semi-canon backstory would be absurd.
You know that Paramount is run by a bunch of incompetants when they take two amazing things that I love, combine them, and somehow make garbage. Its like they added ice cream to cake and made it taste like poo poo.
Omg, if you want to make "guardians of galaxy on steroids" do it, but don't call the end result StarTrek. Its like making Terminator movie... about Sarah Connor school days and her first love. With no terminators obviously, we can't have that.
The worst thing you can do is make a reference to another series or franchise that has nothing to do with your own, and then state how we want to be like them, “BECAUSE WE’RE TO STUPID TO BE CREATIVE WITH ANYTHING ORIGINAL”.
Wow. I'm impressed with your dissection of Kurtzman's dumb creative output. I recall reading that the main storyline for the never produced Section 31 TV series was written by the two "head writers" who did early Discovery. Nothing like two entitled rich girls who will call the manager if their Chai Lattes aren't just the right temperature, writing about things they'll never see or understand. Kurtzman truly is the Schlockmeister of the 21st century, (along with his pal, JJ Abrams.) They all need to go. Now.
I wish it was that easy. Kurtzman reminds me of some edgy high school kid who hates the popular people and gets a kick out of destroying what they like.
It's like having a recipe for a world famous dish and customers lined out the door awaiting and you're like "nah I'm gonna wing it." Just follow the recipe!
It was bad from the get go. When it went from what was to be a TV show to a TV film and we saw the photos and that terrible teaser, I could see a terrible film in the making. This makes Star Trek 5 look brilliant. Remember when people thought Star Trek Discovery was bad.
From looking at this show, I don’t even know if they understand the concept of “spies”, because you see spies aren’t supposed to be “seen” or have a sense of “style” of you do that your bad at your job. Anything beyond that is completely nebulous to these writers.
“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism, 1945 The creators of this Section 31 film do not understand the point Orwell was making.
The problem I've always had with organizations like section 31, that I have never seen addressed in these types of shows, is that whenever you make a secret organization like this, you invariably create a Pythagoras Cup that you now need to manage. You need to keep the cup filled to sate your thirst but fill it too full and it will drain completely. You can't keep them under enough observation because they are supposed to be secret, you can't hold them accountable because their job is to break the rules, and you can't rely on them as they need to have no principles. Power without oversight or accountability, while you may need it to survive the enemies at the gate, invariably will invite those inside the gate who will destroy the city from within. The reason is that the people you are specifically looking for are the people who are willing to sacrifice principles for victory, which means they never had any principles to begin with. How does one trust that the organization itself will not eventually become staffed with patient and evil people who will burn their own nation from within for the "greater good" which they have invariably redefined to mean self-enrichment? The end result is the burning of the city all the same. In the end it results in a slow suicide by inviting in a poison, but a death all the same. In shows like this, the questions I have never seen the "naïve" (aka principled) character ask the secret agent, based on the line of thinking above is "are you willing to condemn your country to death in the future, just to save it for today?" "how much time enough to justify the condemnation?" "what damage comes when your schemes are eventually discovered? Will it still be worth it then?" Maybe someday some show will tackle these questions with a fair answer, but until then I really don't have an interest in these kinds of moral quandaries.
@11:40 Dear Dispru, you are wrong there: Power indeed corrupts. No matter how good you are to begin with, if you have too much power for too long you will be corrupted. One of the mechanisms of this is that people around you will only tell you what you want to hear, precisely because you have power. It starts slowly, but over the years you will be surrounded by yes-man and loose the grip on reality. And more and more you will perceive yourself as infallible and superior to others in morals and intellect. This will lead to you handing out harsher punishments over time to people who contradict you because they are "wrong and evil". The best example in literature that I know of is the One Ring, Power incarnate. The Hobbits are able to bear it the longest, because they are simple folk and not powerhungry at all. But over time even Bilbo and Frodo become corrupted.
Even in the book Utopia, slaves wore golden chains. Even if you wore golden chains, you are still a slave. Whether it is pure gold, gilded or iron chaines, you are a slave. I hate how the media doesn't truly know what Utopia means.
Star Trek Section 31 is where California gets unleashed on the Star Trek universe. Section 31 one though has always been one of the more complex elements of Star Trek, which is misinterpreted by the people who don't even understand the Federation. This section 31 movie seems to have stripped the IP of anything related to that, rather than a morally complex look at what is required of a civilisation instead we get fun and joy! We have a James Bond character in a story that even IGN ranks a 2. Is it time for Hollywood to get rid of people who can't create anything more complex than a writers room conversation? Let me know your thoughts down below and as always, thanks for watching :)
Section 31 should be more like "the silence" from Dr Who with tech so advanced that engineers believe it's magic
Gene wanted people to feel uplifted by his work. He was a man who believed if you looked towards the future you should feel good about it. He loved the commradery of the military which was was part of. He believed in people, in goodness, and he saw in the future a world with people who no longer cared about anothers looks, their backround, earth became a world who cared only about your skills. Thats antithetical to modern Hollywood. Gene was not involved when section 31 was added to the show. He would have hated it. He hated everything it represents. In Gene's vision he saw every solution could have a peaceful resolution with the right minds and the right amount of time. He would dislike them partaking in espionage and murder to get a resolution. As he would put it, if you were not able to have similar values to the federation, you did not belong in the federation. I hated it being added to deep space nine. I dont like DS9 in general because it was focused on religion and that was sort of pushed aside by humanity in startrek. Making the black space jesus bothered me, but at least the episodes shunned the concepts of section 31. In 1998 when they added it to the story, things were going on in the US that was being pushed into the show and its why I liked Janeway's adventures better. Sisco was great though, until he became space jesus. Just a Dad trying to save his new job and look after his edgy teen on a space station suffering after a horrible war that only recently cooled off some. IN 1993 the government killed 76 people in Waco, india and Pakistan were threatening each other and the world trade center was bombed. It was a time when there was distrust in the government and likewise they placed distrust in the federation for the show. They were not as on the nose and thats the problem with new trek, incapable writers don't even know what subtlety is.
Its actually quite an apt title, in UK law a section 31 is in place to protect children and i honestly believe modern rubbish like this is definitely harmful for kids to watch.
@kaned3570 do you need to dig around a dumpster to know that's trash or can you tell by looking and smelling?
@@kaned3570 your other comments do indeed prove that you can't write an original message
Starfleet was incredibly meritocratic. Deanna Troy failed her simulation test for promotion to Commander until she realized that the only way to save the ship was to send Geordi on a suicide mission. She had to learn that in order to be a leader, she had to be willing to sacrifice a friend for the greater good, and moreover that it would be his duty as a Starfleet officer to comply. See, NuTrek likes to think it's grim and dark but it's just juvenile and edgy. But someone having to learn that leadership means you have the weight of thousands of lives on your shoulders, that's actually dark and moreover an important moral lesson.
Kirk would have passed without sacrificing Scotty just send in a technician that works on it on the daily why sacrifice the veteran engineer with experience
I love this . Thank you.
@@NeoakiraIV say, some guy in a red shirt?
@@NeoakiraIV if a technician works on it ont he daily, isnt that technician more experience than scotty?
@@poijnve3912Could be! That’s why you always surround yourself with the best and/or successful people. They do the most beneficial work for you AND your company/team. That’s why you promote people on meritocracy and NOT equity!
"And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain"
New Trek we'll never come close to anything like this
It is funny to see even Sisko was more section 31 than the movie.
Best captain ever. He even sacrifices himself, and he cooked real food for his officers.
@@rigell2764 That was one of the best trek episodes ever (well, really more than that one episode for the entire arc). Made my stomach turn at how cavalier Garak said it & with a smirk on his face for that extra bit of irony.
Just my opinion, but that DS9 episode was one of the most powerful episodes of any Star Trek series, from the original series to Voyager. Just my opinion
100% 👍!
It’s astounding how much better the writing, “& even acting”, the TNG/DS9/VGR series had over the absolute crap being produced now. I guess they’re waiting for all of us ‘original’ guys to die off so they can produce something a “Star Trek” title on it without having ANYTHING RELEVANT from the actual series
It died with Discovery. The horse is glue now and they're still beating it.
It died long before discovery
Oh, they're "beating it", all right. But that's not the DEAD HORSE.
Ir died with Sisko's wife at Wold 359.
They’re hoping that the glue will turn into gold.
@@Stefan_W. Lower Decks is good too.
When I was a young lad watching Sesame Street in the 1970s, there were times when they didn't have enough cookies to go around and had to share and divide them using simple math. My nephews' generation had Barney, and when they didn't have enough cookies someone would magically find another batch of them so nobody had to share or do any math. These writers are from my nephews' generation, and it shows.
Well said…..
LMAO! probably true as well....
to me this is a 16 year old with daddy issues level of writing....
BOY, DAD DIED YEARS AGO, GROW UP!! ....AND KNOCK IT OFF WITH THIS MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE BS, LISTEN TO SOME ZEPPELIN FFS!
C is for cookie, is good enough for me!
@ 2 is for how many genders there are ah ah ah ah....I love to count....
It's worth, the generation making these shows, what it gives their own cookie to the less privileged and go without...
And then, they would get shamed for being sad about not having a cookie
Luther Sloan (William Sadler) is section 31. He was perfect in that role and his job was defined perfectly.
This, ain't that.
"Do you know what the problem with Starfleet Command is? It's EARTH! When you look outside of Starfleet Headquarters you see PARADISE! And it is EASY to be a Saint in Paradise!" - Sisko
That sums it up perfectly.
Ds9 ✨👑
Na, why wouldn't the federation be a paradise everywhere? Literally every place the Federation was at should have industrial replicators. Ds9 writers just couldn't envision that kind of society.
@@havingfun-u4gits honestly why i dont like ds9, its a deconstruction of star trek saying everything about star trek is fake & stupid revealing in its darkness.
Music to my ears hearing a British man saying you can't treat all people equally, especially not the barbarians at the gates who want to destroy you.
We have enough animals inside the gates over here
Barbarians are already in, pillaging and burning, but people are yet afraid to admit it.
Why? The Brits have been doing it for hundreds of years, already😜
@@azzajames7661 👏
@@azzajames7661have you seen BRITAN lately? Shut up!🤦🏼♂️
My loathing for Kurtzman is fathomless.
You can add bottomless to that list
Please. It's Kurtzperson.
I still think that if certain youtubers and part of the fandom had not embraced Pukehard S3 we might have been spared Section 31.
@ChaptermasterPedroKantor-kv5yw Why? There's nothing to indicate that. This has more to do with Yeoh winning an Oscar.
@ Give the w0 kie w0 kes a success, even not of their own making, and they will quintuple down. Pukehard S3 came out of Kurtzman's production company, so its 99.9% certain he claimed its success and used it to get S31 made. Yes, Yeoh got that Oscar, but she won that long before Pukehard S3. I doubt that gave Kurtzman that much negotiation power at that point.
This is why you cannot give Kurtzman, or Disney, ANY win, no matter if was one not of their making. If you have your hand on their throat keep squeezing until they stop breathing. Don't let go just because they give you something decent for a change. Or you will have to do it all over again.
The showrunners: "It will be fun."
Audience: "Does it ever cross your mind that we want to see something complex, dark and intriguing, instead of FUN???"
We have enough dark crap.
does arent mutual excluyent tho...
i dont saying it gonna be good
Showrunner: ”… I…. I don’t
know what any of those words mean.”
Writers: “Goodness, no.”
That's literally what they were going for with _Picard,_ though lol
They failed at that, and are now trying fun again...
It's difficult to fathom how anyone working at Paramount/CBS deserve respect.
Wow. Disparu showed a better understanding of section 31 than the creators of the show does.
That argument could be made about the remains of Trek, Star Wars, the MCU, the DCU, Indiana Jones, Willow, LOTR,...
Is there ONE IP they HAVEN'T destroyed? Please feel free to name one, if you can.
(In the words of Darth Vader, "Now their failure is compleTTT".
@@toddkurzbard the new berverly hills cop was alright, not destroyed by any means.
Honestly YES he did, but then again he knows how to think! Not just push garbage ideas that NEVER work! What I keep asking myself is, why do not all these fools simple reach out and hire him to look over scripts and story ideas BEFORE they are even worked on to see if he thinks they will be successful! It would save them MILLIONS!
Section 31?! He has a better understanding of Trek as a whole than the creators do. However, that's a really really really low bar.
@ Let me explain my respect for Disparu a little further. He related it to serving in the military and how all societies need those who are willing to do the dirty job of dealing with bad situations to allow others to be safe. I am a veteran, and it is right in line with my thought process when I enlisted. Whereas you are right that it applies to all of them, I personally truly noticed and respect that he could see it the way he did on this particular show.
He also is the person who helped me 'appreciate' She Hulk. I looked at it as a parody of feminism. It's hilarious if you can see it that way.
The Operative in the movie 'Serenity' does it so well, at the end when the hero Mal, is beat, broken and at the end he asks The Operative, 'where do you fit into this utopia, you murdered, kill buthcered.' and The Operative just laughs and tells Mal 'There is no place for me there, i do what i do so the innocent cant live where i can not.' its done so well.
"I'm a monster," that movie was great.
I thank you for broaching the subject. Perhaps the Feral Historian could do a good piece on the concept, but it's just me here and I would like to juxtapose the Operative with Section 31.
Start with Beowulf. The hero gets hired by a bunch of navel-gazing pacifist hippies who are getting attacked every night by the monster named Grendel. They are incapable of defeating it, or even resisting. So Beowulf does their dirty work, slays Grendel and his mother to boot, but is not welcome to join the hippies.
It is that ideal that both Section 31 and The Operative embody. The difference is that the people of Section 31 know what it is they defend while The Operative only believes he knows. In reality the Alliance is best described as being Mal's definition of a government, a group of people largely ungoverned. It is an expansionist, statist cabal unashamed to use underhanded or grossly immoral tactics while it projects an aura of utopian idealism. When Mal reveals to The Operative the exact nature of The Alliance's complicity in creating the Reavers it is an epiphany as he realizes that he's been duped.
@@Fred_Lougee That's a bit different, though. Beowulf is an outsider, and he doesn't want to join them in the first place. He's already basically king of another land, he's just there as an honored guest. Perhaps if Beowulf had been one of the 'hippies' (which isn't right, either, they're still Vikings, and thus violent warriors, they just aren't strong enough to defeat Grendal and need a man who is essentially a demi-god to do so) then maybe you'd have a point about him rising up to defend his companions and being shunned for it. But you've completely misrepresented the entire myth.
I enjoyed much of Andromedas five seasons…..
But how did firefly get cancelled in the middle of one?!
It certainly would have been better and the ‘Serenity’ movie proved that!
I'll go back even further in history. Doesn't matter if one is religious or not but most people are familiar with Moses leading his people to the promised land. He was unable to enter himself at the end. Some of us in life are just meant to hold and secure the gate open for others to enter. We're not meant for Utopia.
What kills me about the marketing for this abysmal trashfire is the desperate nature it has to try and appeal to the mainstream. That whole "it's the guaridans of the galaxy" bit - before I saw that it just takes the aspects of Section 31 and tears it apart - had my skin crawling.
Section 31 is nothing like a James Gunn movie. If you think it is, then ask when was the last time James Gunn decided "I'll poison a guy preemptiely so that when he meets with his people it'll poison them and then lead to the destruction of their whole species"
because that's Section 31. they're the black ops of the Federation, they do what is necessary to make the Federation Free and they're reviled by the main cast of the series for that reason. It shouldn't be compared to anything bright and flashy. It should be seen as something horribly dark and gritty.
Not to mention "secret" operatives dressed in bright, memorable outfits like they are at a party lol.
They may not file reports to admirals but they're part of the original charter, they're an autonomous section.
I've always compared Section 31 to being the monsters who fight the other monsters so that you don't have to.
@@muigokublack6487it is ends justify the means kind of thing. Looks like noble sacrifice if ends come to pass and monstrous if they do not. Many communists geniunly believed in soviet state and send people to gulags thinking that bright future would be worth it in the end. Where they nescessery monsters? Most terrible crimes are commited in the name of greater good.
When "Michelle Yeoh" is your biggest draw, you are in dire straitts 😂
She was great in Crouching Tiger but yeah...she isn't 1999 Julia Roberts.
Well .. there was a time when she was a good draw. In the late 90’s. But modern Star Trek has completely misused her. If she was the lead in Discovery that show *might* have been better (yeah, no it wouldn’t but ….) instead that bloody awful space Jesus.
*straits, dire straits
@Darkstar-se6wc You're right. Auto-correct
She has had her moment in the sun, but IMHO, she’s way overrated!
To be fair Starfleet was an elite organization, often with diplomatic power of its own, even "exploration vessels" possesed pretty serious military power, and a single ship could basically conquer a less developed civilisation on its own.
Thats why they had Prime Directives. And a single starfleet captain going rogue could lead to very serious consequences.
And did occasionally. There was more than one episode dealing with that.
@@ChaoticYak1 They clearly refuse to have any more intriguing plotlines for this franchise.
This is where Enterprise showed these elements. They were trying to be the good guys. And what did they get out of it. Aliens that attacked the ship for no reason. They got boarded multiple times. Starfleet slowly stopped not being prepared, for all situations.
@@mbob4337 This is such a woke modern day audience take on star trek. They didn't attack those ships for no reason, the 'aliens' were not savages that need a 'heavy hand' to control them. Starfleet was the Is real of the quadrant. They were an expansionist empire that infiltrated and surrounded their neighbours same as any other. Look at Bajor, that is a prime example of a world that wanted to be free, achieved it, but then got surrounded by starfleet 'out of a desire to stay free' and was sucked into it. Then they turned into a vassal for federation wars and colonization projects. Sounds more like NATO, something that is anything but peaceful. The dominion wars were caused by the federation expansionism in the gamma quadrant, not the ferengai, not the romulan, not the cardassians. Out of all the races operating through the wormhole it was the federation's precence that was viewed as the hostile one.
@@Cerbyo LOL, how often do you give yourself reach arounds?
“The comeback we were waiting for for 9 years”
Lol fuck no.
Whom's come on whom's back?
I’m prepared to wait longer
Smoking some bad chit
Nice pfp
I'm confused as to why a "Secret Organisation" has badges that advertise who they are.
This is not the Star Trek I remember watching as a kid.
Damn straight! The WHOLE premise of Sec31 in DS9, was that NO ONE could identify who,what they were and/or they existed!
Sooooo…., let’s just give I.D. badges for all of our secret organization operatives!
These writers are SO INCOMPETENT it’s hilarious
"There is no Headquarters, no paper trails" when they went into that section 31 guys head. They are meant obe in th shadows and you know secret and the boogie man . not Men in black who don't make you forget they exist
See; I could buy Section 31 operating more openly in the 23rd century with its own ships, bases, badges (which are more high tech than Starfleet ones, go figure), etc., if they hadn't already shown Section 31 100 years beforehand already operating cloak-and-dagger prior to the founding of the Federation. ST:ENT solidified that as Section 31's modus operandi. Then STD comes along and implies that they went from cloak-and-dagger to blatantly out in the open back to cloak and dagger.
MAKE IT. MAKE. SENSE.
@@MrMikellsof88 Not only that, but Bashir was a fanatic when it came to the genre of spies and undercover work. You don't think that he would have known about Section 31 were there ever a period in history where they operated openly?
If they had just shown Starfleet Intelligence as the acceptable face that operates openly, and Section 31 as the deniable face of the same thing, that would work. Having officers who wear Intelligence insignia, but some of them occasionally get told to go black and get things done, yeah, that could work. Instead they go with the worst idea.
Section 31 sounds like some form of bankruptcy.
something you have to fill out in triplicate
The moral kind.
Section 8 is free housing.
I forgot to fill out section 31 of my pet care health insurance policy
@@theghostofmaximumvolume3414 lol Sam Fisher is just a homeless man.
“The only twist would be if it was good!” … i mean, where’s the lie?! 🤣
The politics of Star Trek at it's best, are nuanced and subtle...
I'm reminded of the quote from Sisko;
"On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well it's _easy_ to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise! Out there, in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet! Out there, there are no saints! Just people! Angry, scared, determined people, who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"
One of the issues that constantly comes up with "New Trek" is that the writers also don't understand military structure. All the original series were written with the Starfleet personnel acting in a military fashion. Rank means something, the chain of command is an important to make sure things get done in an orderlly fashion, and insuboratination is often punished unless very specific circumstances occur. You can't write a military based organization without understanding how and why it is organized that way. Even Commader James Bond follows orders (unless he is the modern crybaby version). Bottom line is, nothing they will make will be worth spilled salt as long as they have no understanding of how and why Starfleet acts as it does.
That’s because most of the people who worked on TOS had ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE. The writers on new Trek’s military experience probably amounts to playing Call of Duty one time at their conservative friend’s house.
5 seconds into the trailer i said hell no. But go for it Paramount.
Another reason to not open the paramount channel
This guy is one of thee best movie critics as he examines the meanings within a movie. He goes beyond plot and character devices just as he did with Wicked. The closest critic I can think of is some of Pauline Kael's work. He would be a tremendous critic of literature as he does such a close reading.
Can't we just get a new Trek titled:
"The Death of Kurtzman"
"The Kurtzman Conundrum" 😂
I'd rather if it was a news headline instead. That sack of sh*t has done his best to finish what JJ, Enterprise and Voyager started.
The others producers and execs despise TNG as much as Kurtzman does, sadly. All of them know that we don't want more grimdark Star Trek, but they simply refuse to create anything that Gene would actually endorse.
I want a movie about Kurtzman destroying the franchise and his reasoning behind his bad decisions. I need some comedy with a villain to sneer at.
Star Trek: TDK
TBF, Star Trek TV died when Enterprise ended. Lower Decks and Picard Season 3 were just echoes.
Honest question, how can you stand watching lower decks at all? The constant shouting, quips, and high speed dialogue; it is the antithesis of Star Trek.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God It has its moments. Season 1 really was terrible but it's not as bad as any of the modern live action shows/movies. I found that seasons 2-4 actually had some moments where I thought that at least the writers were trying to make real Trek. If anything, if they weren't constrained by the need to be a 'comedy' then I genuinely believe that later season LD would have become more of a genuine TAS analogue.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God you have to treat it for what it is, a silly cartoon.
Its more true to the original trek formula then anything new trek has done and it has tons of tng references and even has had a bunch of the tng, ds9, and voyager actors guesting on episodes.
Discard season 3 was just memberberries distracting people from its dire plot, and Lower Drecks ws immature garbage, Ricky and Morty inspired Rick & Morty garbage.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God To be fair, I have been rewatching alot of TNG era Trek recently, and there are plenty of episodes that had me laughing all the way through...
Quark is always hilarious (recently watched the episode where he takes over his own Klingon house)
Garak's quips were usually very funny.
Reginald Barclay did his fair share of comic relief "I am the Goddess of Empathy..." - or Worf "Sir, I protest. I am _not_ a merry man!"...
O'Brian having to explain to a Cardassian scientist that just because he gets annoyed with her, doesn't mean he wants a relationship 😂
The low ranked crew members in Voyager; Good Shepherd were very similar to the characters in Lower Decks...
Lower Decks is not supposed to be taken 100% seriously, but still had it's share of serious Trek moments;
For example when the USS Cerritos saves the USS Archimedes in 2x10 - or when the California Class team up to take on the malfunctioning Texas Class in 3x10 - imho that was fantastic Trek.
Mariner (who I found annoying at first) becomes much more likeable once you realise her mindset - She is miserable outside of Starfleet...but also miserable as a high ranked member of Starfleet - she purposefully tries to maintain her low ranked status.
Shouting, quips, and high speed dialogue are not unique to Lower Decks.
A movie based on a character from the Discovery show that did so poorly it was removed from canon. Therefore this movie does not actually have any meaning, and the Kurtzman franchise is over.
Strange New Wokes is in the Kurtzman franchise too though, since NotPike and NotSpock were both featured on Disgracery as was The Enterprise...
Disparu is uniquely intelligent, I'm not sure anyone else on YT can see these things in such depth and explain things this well..
I am really impressed by your capacity to put so much thought into so much sh*t over such a long time. I realize that I have given up. I become unwilling to think any more about the people whose worst nightmare is probably a (not so unrealistic...) world in which the other side does what they have been doing for some time now. They will be gone in three to five years, the rest of the world will just trample on them.
Your videos are nearly the only ones about this which I can still watch. Being so much fun to listen to makes the dreadful subject bearable for a few minutes.
"Beautiful Mess" I may drop a lasagna on the floor and have it look like abstract art, I'm still not going to eat it.
Even the color scheme from the poster screams Cyberpunk.
Should have given Georigue a bulge.
In the words of Guy Fleegman: "Did you guys even watch the show?"
A minute later: "God, I hate being right"
they didn't, they are on record as to how the writers of Kurtzmen era write star trek: They ask ppl what episode to watch, borrow the dvd sets, and then on friday night have a viewing party where they get drunk and high and skim through 3 or 4 episodes of "favourites" from the dvd. That's why all the writing is just memberberries, it simply has older characters showup without any idea of who they are or how they should act....and then it kills them off cause what easier way to make "YOUR STORY" seem important and cannon than to say "IT SHOWS WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR FAVOURITE CHARACTERS U HAVE TO WATCH IT".
These writers don't have the testicular fortitude to understand the DS9 spy episodes. Not just Section 31, but the one where Sisko ends up allowing Garak to commit a false flag op, killing a Romulan senator, in order to drag them into the war.
Truly great episode.
A war the Romulans were more than prepared for, as if they wanted to fight the Dominion and only just needed the excuse of the death of the senator that prevented them going to war to finally enter it.
its a Faaaake
War criminal sisko.
You know what really gets my goat about this. The writers who did good Star Trek are still very much alive. Why is nobody hiring those people? or consulting with them at the very least?
Male and pale is stale? What could some old white dudes possibly know about appealing to a “modern audience”?
Easy, because they are MEN!
Because they're not trying to make Star Trek. They're trying to take something that has billions of viewers and force feed them bullshit that they want them to believe. It's called societal conditioning.
@@MamaMOB it's called propaganda, call it for what it is.
But we need Star Trek for the modern audience... who cares if it kills the franchise and alienate the core fanbase. Well Trek ended with Enterprise s4e21. Everything else since including the Enterprise final episode has been crap.
Can we go back to a time when "brat" wasn't an adjective?
It was fine as a sausage. Perhaps they are begging us to grill them?
Is that what they were saying? I really didn't even understand it.
They gotta stop trying to make “fetch” happen. 😂
Using adolescent slang doesn’t make you sound “with it,” it just makes you sound old and try hard.
@@Darkstar-se6wc You just reminded me of a scene from the first Austin Powers with Dr. Evil and Scott.
"I'm with it... I'm hip..."
"Brat" in "bratwurst" is how the sausage, or "wurst", is cooked, being pan-fried. So, using "brat" means they're in the frying pan one step from the fire.
Their idea of suffering is if someone disagrees with them, about anything. They have to Google what the word "No" means, because they've literally never heard it before, and once they realize what it means, they suffer from PTSD. Dunning-Kruger developed their theory by studying these people.
Oh man I miss star trek....damnit
Oh yes. It would be nice to see some new ST episodes and films. Highly doubt it is possible in this "climate".
It's wild that they just never made any more Star Trek, eh? I mean, Enterprise wasn't quite so hot, but you'd have thought that the soulless corporate masters would demand more be made. Somehow they held off though. And they NEVER MADE ANY MORE STAR TREK.
You can't kill Star Trek any deader than it already is.
Dear Lord, thank you. I had nothing to watch. And the best appeared.
My prediction: Section 31 are actually the REAL good guys keeping the Federation together, and regular Starfleet officers will be forced to acknowledge this, yet cover it all up making them morally dubious. It's just like the other Star Show...
You really nailed the complex nature of Section 31. Well done! As a DS9 and life long Star Trek fan, this video is perfect in explaining the moral quandary that is Section 31. Very well made mate! The clips you included from DS9 are perfect for reminding the audience exactly why Section 31 was so relevant to the entire arch of Star Trek. Fantastic work!
Every time they go and say that they are making star trek darker or showing gray. I go, ds9 did it already, and they were good at it.
Everything the producers say about this is saying they’re not making a Star Trek series, they’re just abusing the brand title.
Disparu here summing up the problems with clown world in a Star Trek review
Keep up the good work man love the content
Joe Biden just pardoned all of Star Trek for 2025😮
holy lol
Only so he could sniff Naomi Wildman
😂😂
I heard he actually pardoned cancer as well. Promises made. Daipers wet.
Smart man…knows how the game is played~
I haven't watched Star Trek since the Wrath of JJ. I've hated JJ Abrams ever since I watched one episode of Lost.
Fast approaching Death? Mate, it's been dead since 2018 with STD season 2, and an argument could be made it was 2013 with Into Darkness..
I think it died the moment jerkjerk adrams was hired to direct.
I don't think I've ever seen a Star Trek trailer that had less to do with Star Trek.
'Serenity' did this similar premise very well with the incarnation of the Alliance Assassin (The Operative).
Bashir ends up breaking the "rules" to get the Changling cure.
This show looks like it will be “Star Trek: Concord”
If they really wanted to save Star Trek, they would give the guys from Axenar full control. Their egos won't allow this.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that as it's a well established and used and abused hollysht power-scheme... to push their half digested gut products, whilst high on every drug available.
Robert Myer Burnett for sure, along with the creator of Star Trek: Continues Vic Mignogna, which has been the best Star Trek since the end of Enterprise. These two men have a clear understanding of Star Trek and would be invaluable in ensuring the quality of anything being created.
@@greyTigerGames For sure RMB should be put on any Trek project as a continuity consultant. But that's in the same vein as saying that Tom Shippey shouldn't have been sacked by Amazon as the Tolkien expert. Vic would be a good edition to official Trek alumni, however with his ongoing legal issues I very much doubt anyone would hire him. He's even having dialogue he voiced in video games retroactively replaced (TOS-era captain of PC ship in STO). He's been given the Johnny Depp treatment.
Alec Peters burned that bridge when he tried to profit off Trek, and burned the bridge with fans when his antics resulted in Paramount cracking down hard on fan productions.
@@greyTigerGames 👆🏻This
Right.
Another January movie you can completely disregard
"We are the sin eaters. It means that we take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us, so that the rest of our cause can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible, and absolutely necessary."
―Eric Byer's: The Bourne Legacy
Coronet Blue
Are the trilogy sequels any good or did they start to get preachy?
Julian wasn't naive, he understood the good versus evil conflict but like a Klingon he would not compromise his honor for the victory
Utopians will always explain what and why but never how.
Even their whats and whys are usually unsatisfactory because it's (ofc) an impossible dream
People need to link and post this video on Star Trek sites because it's an absolute mic drop. Pure truth.
Thanks!
Brilliant video! DS9 Section 31 was a great plot that modern Star Trek writers can't comprehend.
Kamala was "Brat" Huh, how well did that go?
I bowed out of star trek a long time ago
Me too. After Voyager.
Yeah, stopped making sense.
You've made me remember how DS9 is an absolute masterpiece ❤
Old Trek is philosophy in space. I love it so much.
we are in the timeline that corn parodies understand star trek lore better then the oriiginal owners.
Strange new worlds went from someone seeing fandom really liking Christopher Pikes character, to an entire episode where everyone must sing to communicate. Think about that
My favourite example of this moral quandry is from Exile's Honor, a book by Mercedes Lackey set in the Heralds of Valdemar.
Alberich is asked to become an agent due to his unique background and abilities. His reasoning for accepting is "Someone must do the job. Either someone else, someone innocent with ideals that will be crushed or myself, whose hands are already stained with blood. Adding a few more blotches won't make a difference."
I have a dnd Character who's essentially this entire premise. He does the dirty work so others don't have to. Let the paladin live up to his ideals, win the moral victory. He'll be there in the background, making sure the victory is absolute
Best explanation why there are no good movies anymore. Hollywood is just not able to understand the world.
When I saw IGN gave it a 2-painful I started laughing out loud 🤣
No one can take away the first two seasons of TOS! Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov and Sulu were the dream team .
"and so what you have is a beautiful mess" 50% correct Sir.
the whole point of spies is that they blend in, these characters stick out like a sore thumb
It's funny how you understand clearly what Section 31 is, but the Star Trek creators don't. Even a large part of Trek TH-cam creators don't.
Bashir did not change his mind towards S31 as the show goes on as you claim, the plot finishes when he and Miles kill Sloan using their tactics and suffer the mental consequences about what he did
Technically, Miles and Bashir didn’t kill him, Sloan, like any spy, took a suicide pill (or neuro implant that automatically activated upon his capture that basically was a suicide pill)
@Disparu said near the end of the video that Section 31 is "a clandestine spy movie". I heard that S31 have their own comm badges, uniforms, starships and fly their own colours while being known to the general public.... doesn't sound very clandestine to me.
I'm glad you included so many key speeches from Sloan and Bashir.
When there are monsters in the dark, you need your own monsters to fight them.
That's a nice line. Sure hope those monsters never abuse their power.
It is interesting how in Picard season 3 they dealt with the fallout of the Section 31 virus that ended the Dominion War.
When Picard talks about how the Federation “helped” the Founders cure the virus that was killing them he has no idea it was the Federation that infected them with the virus in the first place.
In fact, he seems shocked that the Federation would even do something like that.
But that is the difference between good writing and understanding the world you are writing for and whatever STD and Section 31 is.
If we're going to compare Section 31 to something in the U.S., it would be more like the NSA that wasn't acknowledged to exist for years after its creation.
I'll admit that I've never much liked Section 31, but it worked in DS9 because of how it was used. I think it would be difficult to make a whole show about Section 31, rather than have them be in the background of a larger story. Like happened with the Borg, the more you shine the light on them, the less powerful they are as a plot.
Lets have a show called 'Star Trek' which is the complete opposite of Star Trek. Great idea.
I love how Disparu uses a metaphor from Babylon 5 to explain Star Trek principles lol
This was one of the best descriptions/analysis of Section 31 from Trek lore. I would probably agree with your take, but I think that a lot of the Federation believe in the moral framework, even if it caused harm to the Federation. An example of this was Picard letting the Romulans know that the Federation was experimenting with a type of cloaking.
This then raises the question of whether those officers would maintain this stance if it meant not only damage but the destruction of the Federation. I think that in that circumstance, many, if not most, would actually break their convictions to save the Federation, as Sisko did when he killed the Romulan diplomat in "In the Pale Moonlight" to get the Romulans to join the war against the Dominion.
Anyway, I got more from this than from any new Trek since Enterprise.
The idea of Section 31 is completely antithetical to what Trek was intended to be. The original vision was that we evolved as a planet to not need that kind of organization. Unrealistic? In today's world, yes. But not impossible.
Section 31 should have been an upstart organization in Enterprise that was squashed.
To be honest, I haven’t always agreed with your opinions, “mostly but not EVERYTIME”, but you knocked this one out of the ballpark, Sir!
They OBVIOUSLY aren’t producing movies/tv shows/series for profit anymore, as 90+%, realize how easy it would be to make what the average ‘John Q’ audience wants!
The amount of $ they could bring in for making an average or OK Star Trek based on semi-canon backstory would be absurd.
I like how the COMIC-CON panel is 4 black dudes and one white chick. The combination of success
Noticing reality is racist now.
You know that Paramount is run by a bunch of incompetants when they take two amazing things that I love, combine them, and somehow make garbage. Its like they added ice cream to cake and made it taste like poo poo.
Omg, if you want to make "guardians of galaxy on steroids" do it, but don't call the end result StarTrek.
Its like making Terminator movie... about Sarah Connor school days and her first love. With no terminators obviously, we can't have that.
The worst thing you can do is make a reference to another series or franchise that has nothing to do with your own, and then state how we want to be like them, “BECAUSE WE’RE TO STUPID TO BE CREATIVE WITH ANYTHING ORIGINAL”.
Why do we always need "X version of Star Trek" and not STAR TREK version of Star Trek!
Wow. I'm impressed with your dissection of Kurtzman's dumb creative output.
I recall reading that the main storyline for the never produced Section 31 TV series was written by the two "head writers" who did early Discovery.
Nothing like two entitled rich girls who will call the manager if their Chai Lattes aren't just the right temperature, writing about things they'll never see or understand.
Kurtzman truly is the Schlockmeister of the 21st century, (along with his pal, JJ Abrams.)
They all need to go.
Now.
I wish it was that easy. Kurtzman reminds me of some edgy high school kid who hates the popular people and gets a kick out of destroying what they like.
It's like having a recipe for a world famous dish and customers lined out the door awaiting and you're like "nah I'm gonna wing it." Just follow the recipe!
Notice a theme with the panel?
It was bad from the get go. When it went from what was to be a TV show to a TV film and we saw the photos and that terrible teaser, I could see a terrible film in the making.
This makes Star Trek 5 look brilliant.
Remember when people thought Star Trek Discovery was bad.
From looking at this show, I don’t even know if they understand the concept of “spies”, because you see spies aren’t supposed to be “seen” or have a sense of “style” of you do that your bad at your job. Anything beyond that is completely nebulous to these writers.
Beautifully articulated truth mate. Thank you.
“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism, 1945
The creators of this Section 31 film do not understand the point Orwell was making.
Freaking brilliant! Best summary of section 31 ever.
The problem I've always had with organizations like section 31, that I have never seen addressed in these types of shows, is that whenever you make a secret organization like this, you invariably create a Pythagoras Cup that you now need to manage. You need to keep the cup filled to sate your thirst but fill it too full and it will drain completely. You can't keep them under enough observation because they are supposed to be secret, you can't hold them accountable because their job is to break the rules, and you can't rely on them as they need to have no principles. Power without oversight or accountability, while you may need it to survive the enemies at the gate, invariably will invite those inside the gate who will destroy the city from within. The reason is that the people you are specifically looking for are the people who are willing to sacrifice principles for victory, which means they never had any principles to begin with. How does one trust that the organization itself will not eventually become staffed with patient and evil people who will burn their own nation from within for the "greater good" which they have invariably redefined to mean self-enrichment? The end result is the burning of the city all the same. In the end it results in a slow suicide by inviting in a poison, but a death all the same.
In shows like this, the questions I have never seen the "naïve" (aka principled) character ask the secret agent, based on the line of thinking above is "are you willing to condemn your country to death in the future, just to save it for today?" "how much time enough to justify the condemnation?" "what damage comes when your schemes are eventually discovered? Will it still be worth it then?"
Maybe someday some show will tackle these questions with a fair answer, but until then I really don't have an interest in these kinds of moral quandaries.
You just gave an accurate and eloquent discussion as to why the CIA shouldn’t exist.
@11:40 Dear Dispru, you are wrong there: Power indeed corrupts. No matter how good you are to begin with, if you have too much power for too long you will be corrupted. One of the mechanisms of this is that people around you will only tell you what you want to hear, precisely because you have power. It starts slowly, but over the years you will be surrounded by yes-man and loose the grip on reality. And more and more you will perceive yourself as infallible and superior to others in morals and intellect. This will lead to you handing out harsher punishments over time to people who contradict you because they are "wrong and evil". The best example in literature that I know of is the One Ring, Power incarnate. The Hobbits are able to bear it the longest, because they are simple folk and not powerhungry at all. But over time even Bilbo and Frodo become corrupted.
Star Trek died about halfway through Season 1 of Discovery
I thought it was more like episode 1...
"Sacrifice your principles in order to survive."
Yes, that's exactly what Hollywood requires. You bought their argument completely. Well done.
Thank you for the warning. I will stay away from movie theaters until this abomination is gone.
"Mirab, with sails unfurled"
Luckily, it's Paramount + for your pleasure
Even in the book Utopia, slaves wore golden chains. Even if you wore golden chains, you are still a slave. Whether it is pure gold, gilded or iron chaines, you are a slave. I hate how the media doesn't truly know what Utopia means.