As someone new to Warhammer in general (started last summer), I have to say that I kinda really appreciate all the old sculpts being the main models for Old World. I never got the chance to enjoy these models as a kid/teenager, and I’ve found a new appreciation of their modeling style. Plus, the old models are great to learn painting for a first-timer like me, and I feel much better about taking a stab at, say, a skeleton warrior than a very intimidating AOS-equivalent sculpt!
I ran a narrative event in London for an empire civil war day last month! 10 players, 3 factions, a campaign map and only empire armies. We even had a prequel roleplay session a few weeks before to set up the story. I had such a great time, and some of my highlights were the rpg characters squaring off against each other on the tabletop (RIP Freiherr von Leitdorf). I definitely recommend running something similar. Tbh ours also felt a bit like an empire support group;)
I remember when the Old Wolrd was announced, they showed some supposedly Forge World concept art for Kislev, it may have been for Total Warhammer 3, but at that point they were planning new models for the Old World.
This article explicitly talks about them developing Kislev for Old World specifically... www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/MzN3fQTQ/the-old-world-ice-guard-of-kislev/
I love that new Old World sculpts don’t clash with original Old World sculpts but still fresh and high quality. It feels like the sculpting team is the same as Age of Sigmar but understands the 2 design philosophies between the two games (one extra dramatic and modern to keep pace with Kingdom Death or Malifaux, the other conservative and subdued for rank and file without sacrificing quality, charm, and detail).
@@moiseman you mean AoS and ToW aren’t the same scale? That’s not news to anyone mate. How does the new Chaos character ‘clash with the old world’? She’s about as old world as someone could get design wise. She looks like she was sculpted at the same time as the vintage chaos warriors that have been re-released (6th/7th era) and will look the business alongside them!
@@PRAISE_HASHUT nobody's talking about aos, bretonnian footknights are bigger for example. And we all see how the fat women general clashes with everything and why she exists, i'm not gonna humour you. Have fun with your big dose of copium
@PRAISE_HASHUT Indeed about the aesthetic, since the concepts would’ve been back in 2017-2018 before TOW was even a thought they probably just saw AoS as the only fantasy system left for popular classic concepts and wanted to bring them back there(like Rippa’s Snarlfangs in 2019) Then TOW happened with writers taking some ideas they overheard in AoS development and now we got conspiracies.
Steve Herner runs pretty amazing narrative events twice a year in Chicago land for AoS (Holy Wars/Holy Havoc). The tables have tons of beautiful and very impactful rules and changes in victory conditions. Each table is its own mini-game. You pretty much just show up and play though - he's done tons of work.
Warhammer Total War also served from Day 1 as the alternate reality version for Old World. You very much could stop the End Times, or the Vermintide. On a side note, would also love to see more Old World references in Age of Sigmar, it would endear me more to Age of Sigmar (for example Gortrek finally finding Felix Jaeger, or Vermintide 3 bringing the Ubersreik 5 to Age of Sigmar.) Not all bad endings are good, and not all good endings are bad. And there’s plenty of room and time to add those twists to the lore without any need to retcon.
That all sounds like you’re not actually endeared to it but putting a mask of an Ex’s face on a new partner and pretending they’re someone else so you can tolerate them…while still asking your Ex to take you back.
Great stuff as always chaps. The AOS mini stuff is very interesting. I’m not sure any of them were ever designed for ToW and repurposed, the design styles will always have similarities because of their origins, but I can certainly imagine a scenario where ToW was prevented from pursuing some avenues because of the inevitable clashes with AOS planned releases.
No. 6 th edition siege rules should be your start. There are a few people who have kitbashed their own rules “ based loosely on these”. I recommend this. Also might be interesting to just use the current building a terrain rules ….. I’m excited to hear what you got cooking 🧑🍳
For narrative events, Mordian Glory has run a couple of AMAZING apocalypse scale 40k weekenders, might be worth taking a look at and chatting to him. They functioned really well as story generators and surprisingly well as actual games, I think.
If I was to summarise the state of Old World it would be that it has the best "vibe" of any GW game. It's fun! Strange things happen. Lots of rules holes to fall down (in a fun way). Nobody takes it too seriously (which is good). There are heaps of units and variety.
The backwards compatibility of Heresy models to 40k ended when 10th released in 2023. Around that time the Forge World monsters disappeared from the webcart and AoS as well.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld And that’s well into the development of Old World and would have thrown a planned cohabitation with AoS like you said in the video. Very sad. Feels like a lot of frustration for hobbyists and I’m sure strife for GW folk for pretty bad corporate incentive reasons. Ultimately more sales per SKU must be good for GW overall.
I was reading the arcane journal about kiknik and fun fact; kiknik is suspected to be more of a “title” name passed down from one rider of the white wolf to the next as they die and the wolf picks a new rider. Because the wolf is the one who picks lol
man oh man... weather system is really interesting. Also--as a big fan of the particularly splashy, chunky terrain pieces--would love to see an incorporation of something like mighty fortress.
As a hardcore 40k player who loves the competitive and balanced gameplay, I gotta say, Warhammer: The Old World is a breath of fresh air. Its narrative-driven, less balanced approach lets me get super creative with my armies and dive deep into the lore. It's a nice change from the standardized and competetive-focsued play of 40k, which I also love. Both games are right now where I like them to be.
I used to play Flames of War tournaments (15mm WWII) but the community pivoted to "Campaign" weekends instead. These were map-based narrative events. They had a totally different vibe to tournaments - people were much more relaxed and the narrative provided lots of memorable moments - just like the rivers in your latest event seemed to. So I recommend narrative weekends for TOW.
Absolutely on board with Rob's take that the game has that "THIS IS COOL" factor. I'm playing Empire, combined arms, and it's not competitive by any stretch. About half a dozen games in, and my 150pt General with Dragon bow has a kills list that's about 1,500 points long. They've never died, and in most games I've taken out either the enemy general or their big gribbly. Crushing Victories: 0 Close, awesome Games: 6
I think one of the most simple explanations is not that they were designing sculpts and lore together but maybe the Old World had way less budget and they decided to re use AoS future sculpts for example. And of course bo re-release of minis that already have an equivalent, like stone trolls for example
Almost certainty that. Like AoS1 had Stormcast, Kharadron & Gloomspite concept art from Blanche dating back to 2008-2010 before they released in 2015, 2017 & 2019. The TOW team they put together likely saw Gitmob art and the like back in 2016-2018 when they thought nothing of it and were hoping it’d be usable without really communicating it(as GW doesn’t allow communication between studios)
Just to note, I would totally bring my warhammer fortress (all three walls and two towers of it) to a siege event. Reckon a lot of UK gamers would do the same, and you could probably get your twelve standardised castles that way.
For a second, I thought the Chaos Champion may have been Valkya before she became a Daemon Princess. Would have been dope to see some more tie-ins. Tie-ins sell more models, GW!! (See Young grim)
When you do a roleplaying campaign (a narrative lead story telling exercise) you have something called session 0 where the dungeon master provides a context, part of the plot and an overarching theme that the campaign will be set in. The points you're making around 30 minutes in are exactly that. You've got a theme, whether it's the river or the volcano, or using buildings. You don't even need to be specific with the rules, you can tune them at a later date so long as they stick to that initial theme.
Your discussion about volcanoes got the brain ticking at 2am. These were my initial thoughts…. Worlds of Old Narrative League Round One: Sylvannian Night Fight No LOS outside 12” Shooting over 6” is double range Dangerous terrain checks in all charges Round 2: Badland Boom Mountain Volcano in centre of board Glow:No LOS unless within 12” of volcano Gloom: -1LD within 6” of volcano (smog) Round 3: Norscan Winter Nights Blizzard: Range reduced 6” Deep Snow: Roll charges, take the lowest. Round 4: Drought in the Darklands -1 move -1 Str on charge Round 5: Slippery Claws Sea -1 to Hit Ranged -1 AP
I’m also about to run a 3 round tournament where the more VPs scored overall (both sides) impacts the scores for the players. The bloodier the better basically.
I doubt someone at the top who made the strategic decision to stop models from being used across game systems is unhappy old world is performing. They probably made the decision to make more money - if you want to play two games you have to buy two models, not one. So they are probably very happy that despite that decision old world is still selling well and it actually validates that decision.
Oh I know these feels! I've got tons of armies on the shelves but the majority are actually "Legacy." For me I went with the army that just sung to me the most... and that was Orcs and Goblins... and I've barely played anything outside of that. My runner up is definitely Vampire Counts due to Empire being a bit of a bummer. Something I think that's great for getting going on a totally new project is waiting for an Arcane Journal and picking an army of infamy. They've all been really uniquely themed so far and really good at "re-mixing" the parent army mostly by reducing choices. So ... waiting for Helfs might be the ticket!
The price for old sculpts and reasonable rules books are why I'm into Old World. I hope GW understands how well pricing can lead to wider popularity and yes, profit. I can't afford the other games but have so much fun for HALF the price of an army in AOS or 40K. GW prices out Old World, I will have fun with Warlord games systems
As the Andy who brought his beastmen I can honestly say this rivers event was incredible and crucially, very much competitive. People (smarter ones than me) adjusted their army builds accordingly but it added an extra flavour to what I think is already a decent ruleset! Roll on bridges/castles/ events in due course then let's mix them all together!
For Narrative events - talk to the Box of Frogs guys in the Derby area. They’ve been running a campaign set in Araby with a rolling story across their events, custom scenarios, campaign map, special publications and a crowd of chill fun gamers. I took my Chaos Dwarfs and handed out flyers advertising for ‘volunteer positions’ working in the Darklands. In the last day event I had to defend a camel train marching across the deserts, explored some old ruins and summoned a sphinx that game me a riddle, as well as navigated some treacherous sands to battle Dark Elves. Highly recommend!!!
Also worth checking out the Albion themed campaign, which Joe Bain and comrades ran for 6th a few years ago. I missed it, but it had a real time map based campaign, moving your armies around, when you met another army or entered a location with an enemy in, you went and started playing. If someone else moved to the map section, they joined in on the same table. It sounds like it was terrific fun.
Another shout out to the Everchosen 6th Ed tournaments, from Tales of the Old World, which are still going on and have an ongoing narrative theme for each tourney! Very cool.
One effect of mixing up the scenarios with different terrain and things like weather rules is that you’ll attract a different type of player. If you want to see more themed/narrative lists and less waac super meta lists, throwing curves into the game might get that.
Tangent on Castles. Will we see Siege rules in this edition? EDIT: Val just said Siege event whilst I typed this!! The siege book you mentioned Val was for Third edition and crazily had siege rules for Warhammer fantasy and 40k in the same book! There was also a siege supplement book for 5th. 6th even had siege rules in the core rulebook!
Played my first Old World game with a friend a few days ago. My TKs vs his WoC. Unfortunately I set up the board with a ton of terrain (like a heavily populated AoS board - I have just finished a sigmarite mauseleum so just added that to my regular terrain).... Damn I had no idea jow much that would mess me up. My 3 Chariots and Necropolis Knights just couldn't manouver at all, they were either blocked by my skellies or by the terrain!. Was good fun though - especially my friend's gorebeast chariot exploding as it yolo'd itself through the Spirit Vortex my High Priest had just conjured! Will do a lot less terrain next time!
@SquareBasedOldWorld You boys are in luck. I ran a 2 day narrative Old World event with a linked story between games, used weather conditions as fun simple modifiers for each new map, and the culminating 3rd battle was a castle siege. Players had to coordinate how to spend support points and build their siege machines for the 3rd game (thatll make Val happy I'm sure). It wasnt a huge event, just six players, but everyone had a stupendous time. Just be careful making the giant floating pyramid for the final battle *wink*. Let me know if you want the rules pdfs I cooked up, I'm happy to share!
No shade on AoS intended here, but it can't compete in that "epic" feel or look that TOW can offer with ranks of soldiers and cavalry gives as they march to battle. Your absolutely right, and that is something you get watching things like Lord of the Rings or any fantasy/historical film that involves massive set piece battles.
Regarding the goblin releases, Val is simply saying what everyone is thinking. He doesn’t need to back peddle whatsoever. Plus, Mustaches can simply BE, and do not require “dancing.” The movement that makes the stache look cooler is that of a raised eyebrow, strangely enough.🤔
spamming giants in the 1st TW online was great, especially if your opponent had a bad PC. There is something deeply satisfying about watching a giant slow-mo swing a tree into Karl Franz's head. Also if you did need a sweat shop for terrain painting for a worlds i'd do some of it.
Val is correct about the mustache dance - you definitely lost me, but not for the reason he thought. Mustache dance was *too* sexy. Volcano rules: At the end of each round, centre the 5" blast template on the volcano and roll a scatter dice and 4D6: move the template a number of inches equal to the roll in the direction indicated. And model under the template suffers a S4 Ap - hit with the Flaming Attacks rule; a model directly under the central hole instead suffers a S7 AP -2 hit with the Flaming attacks rule. If a "hit" is rolled on the scatter dice, the volcano belches smoke and choking ash, forcing all flyers to the ground for the following turn - all models on the battlefield with the Flyer rule may not use it and must move normally across the battlefield using their standard M value.
1) You could have a wild fire, each turn the "wind" can change direction, stand still, explode in all directions, creates new fires, or burn out. 2) You could have flooding! Rivers, lakes, etc. 3) Snow! How many armies have been wasted purely by maneuvering in the snow or being overwhelmed by cold? 4) Food, water, disease, money. 5) Supply chains, escort quests, bounties for units! Table top games are a lot like Civilization, maybe table top war gaming can learn from video gaming. Bring back the roleplaying!
I don’t mind the Empire guy, but he’s not what I’ve got in mind for my Empire general, he’s way too ‘noblebright’ (and a little World of Warcraft with the shoulders). My guy will be modelled a lot more on Harry Flashman, cowardly, caddish fop who manages to mess things up spectacularly but always seems to land on his feet.
I try to always run a battle like the river lands , just tweaking the battles and the terrain a bit. Everyone always loves it. Also I convert allot of OLD battles from old white dwarf and citidel journal. Very fun. Just did grimdals tomb this weekend. So cool. The dwarf ranger line hammer destroyed me but I almost go to the damn tomb. I recommend 😆
Hobgrot Slittaz have no business being with Kruleboys (and I think don’t even share a keyword?) but are clearly Hobgoblins in the Legion of Azgorh aesthetic.
They have the Kruleboyz keyword. They’re apart of their Morruk Kultur along with Yoofs(young orruks) that don’t make the cut for ‘Ardboyz so use wits over brawn. And to AoS’ credit the Hobgrots are different physically with their orange skin, lanky arms & small Orc-like tusks making them half-orruks compared to Hobgoblins which are just tall green gobbos with Glasgow smiles & hunched backs.
We play historicals mainly. Sounds like you guys are more tourney players. Looking at playing OW in more of a traditional style. We’ll play with what I bring and base scenarios off this. Winning is great, but for us it’s the company, drinks, and shit talking that make the night. Wondering if dragons are so OP, because they should only come out for certain games, not because they fit the points. Going to build a collection based on the minis I like and can afford rather than points. One day, I would LOVE to play Bloodbath at Orcs Drift with the new rules. Think I need to get moving on that.
Maybe the TOW lower price point was baked-in to their plan all along, so they released the new minis in the range where the price point is higher by design, thus more profits. So it’s not that they are “not releasing products for the new game” just that they are doing so in boxes stamped with their “premium flagship” game branding. So TOW packaging will be reserved mostly for dedicated characters or with old world flavor, then you bulk out the guts of the army with 3D go brrr…wait, I mean with AoS troops.
The Goroan empire shall not tolerate such blatant specism to compare them to the lowly Beastmen Minotaurs!! (Seriously, the Ogroid Thaumaturge was a 2017 release and set their lore up back then as a empire that left Destruction for Chaos which built up the Myrmidon & Theridons as more remnants gaining high standings in S2D’s armies as legion masters & quality smiths. That’s why they’re “Slaves” like the other corrupted races such as Sphiranxes who worked for Teclis & Fomoroids)
Challenge for Rob….Siege rules in a tournament setting :) (I played the old siege rules within 8th ed WHFB….it worked, but u had to exclude my Arcknarock, it was clearly going to be OP)
I don't think the new wolf riders were designed for Old World but I do think it's crazy that GW don't make the models officially usable in both systems. Same goes for Horus Heresy. New Heresy tanks came out alongside Death Korps but you're not allowed to use those tanks (even though the Death Korps do use those types of tanks?). Seems nuts. Luckily we don't have to obey GW-So use whatever models you like :)
Agree with val on the type of rules writing of warhammer vs standartized , it‘s not what I want, the cutrent 40K/AoS style of rules robs the experience in a way. I don’t want to stand on anyones feet yet the style of modern rules pushed me away from AoS. AoS plays like a sterile board game to me (which hurts i used to love it and I have like 12 armies 😢) TOW however got me hyped, I am using my CoS as imperials (converter bases) sone are permanently on Squares, I startes conversions again, which used to be a passion. All around great.
I'll always be disappointed that GW has decided that all the various games will be siloed away from each other. My first army was chaos daemons, so that I could play equally between 40k and fantasy at the time without having two separate huge projects.I'm glad that the community events have been keeping the legacy factions included.
I have a big chaos army from mostly AoS stuff, i never got around to painting it, because i really didnt get into AoS, It just was not for me. But now that old world is released, ive renewed my interest, long story short., I feel abit the fractious nature of GW is rubbing off on me, I dont like the old sculpts that much, and I have mostly AoS stuff, but at the same time, I get kind of salty, and dont want to support AoS, wish i could make GW know that all those AoS stonks that ive bought is for TOW. I feel kinda bad about it, I bought the expensive GW bases atleast to toss some money into the right IP. Someone at GW needs to be hit in the face with a big salmon
Hello! Could you please, please upload more episodes on spotify?🙏 The last episode available there is the arcane journal for warriors of chaos. So 8 or 9 shows are missing from that platform! I listen to you in my car.
I agree that your event wasn’t a narrative one… people seem to call anything outside of vanilla tournaments “narrative”… this feels more like “open play” aka you’ve turned the vanilla game into how you’d like it
It saddens me to hear you say ban the green knight all the time. He's such a sick character with an evocative model that belongs on the tabletop. I will agree he needs an FAQ and a bit of a nerf though!
Calling Warhammer Siege the best supplement when General's Compendium exist. Guys you've missed the greatest book in your hobby life if that's the case 😅
Our new Teeshirts are up for sale!! Be the first to get them
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@@SquareBasedOldWorld it‘s Val-Franz and Robawi Zar? XD nice
As someone new to Warhammer in general (started last summer), I have to say that I kinda really appreciate all the old sculpts being the main models for Old World. I never got the chance to enjoy these models as a kid/teenager, and I’ve found a new appreciation of their modeling style. Plus, the old models are great to learn painting for a first-timer like me, and I feel much better about taking a stab at, say, a skeleton warrior than a very intimidating AOS-equivalent sculpt!
I ran a narrative event in London for an empire civil war day last month! 10 players, 3 factions, a campaign map and only empire armies. We even had a prequel roleplay session a few weeks before to set up the story. I had such a great time, and some of my highlights were the rpg characters squaring off against each other on the tabletop (RIP Freiherr von Leitdorf). I definitely recommend running something similar.
Tbh ours also felt a bit like an empire support group;)
Sounds epic! Keep up the good work and let us know when the next one is on!!
Just imaging Rob having to make 12 castles the night before 🤣🤣🤣
Val or undercover cop? You decide
UC for sure
th-cam.com/video/fiOMbqPHFwo/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=30RockOfficial
Narc
@andrewgalea5012 😅😅😅
Not either / or, but both!
It’s a false dichotomy that is proposed, because Val is a man of MANY hats.
Or a guy who looks like a cop who sold me suspicious miniatures from a shoe box in a parking lot. ( true story)
Rob. You worked at GW. You met Merrett. You know exactly how these things went.
Spill the tea sir :)
Please do the deep show of the stolen/uncollabed minis
Perhaps the dual element would have been characters coming with two heads (like abraxia and Holga have, whichever you were thing of)
I remember when the Old Wolrd was announced, they showed some supposedly Forge World concept art for Kislev, it may have been for Total Warhammer 3, but at that point they were planning new models for the Old World.
This article explicitly talks about them developing Kislev for Old World specifically...
www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/MzN3fQTQ/the-old-world-ice-guard-of-kislev/
I love that new Old World sculpts don’t clash with original Old World sculpts but still fresh and high quality. It feels like the sculpting team is the same as Age of Sigmar but understands the 2 design philosophies between the two games (one extra dramatic and modern to keep pace with Kingdom Death or Malifaux, the other conservative and subdued for rank and file without sacrificing quality, charm, and detail).
Agree! Personally, I think the new releases that we’re speculating were for ToW don’t fit the aesthetic at all!
bruh they're not even the same scale. Also, fatty general warrior woman clashes real hard with the old world lol
@@moiseman you mean AoS and ToW aren’t the same scale? That’s not news to anyone mate.
How does the new Chaos character ‘clash with the old world’? She’s about as old world as someone could get design wise. She looks like she was sculpted at the same time as the vintage chaos warriors that have been re-released (6th/7th era) and will look the business alongside them!
@@PRAISE_HASHUT nobody's talking about aos, bretonnian footknights are bigger for example.
And we all see how the fat women general clashes with everything and why she exists, i'm not gonna humour you. Have fun with your big dose of copium
@PRAISE_HASHUT
Indeed about the aesthetic, since the concepts would’ve been back in 2017-2018 before TOW was even a thought they probably just saw AoS as the only fantasy system left for popular classic concepts and wanted to bring them back there(like Rippa’s Snarlfangs in 2019)
Then TOW happened with writers taking some ideas they overheard in AoS development and now we got conspiracies.
Steve Herner runs pretty amazing narrative events twice a year in Chicago land for AoS (Holy Wars/Holy Havoc). The tables have tons of beautiful and very impactful rules and changes in victory conditions. Each table is its own mini-game. You pretty much just show up and play though - he's done tons of work.
Warhammer Total War also served from Day 1 as the alternate reality version for Old World. You very much could stop the End Times, or the Vermintide. On a side note, would also love to see more Old World references in Age of Sigmar, it would endear me more to Age of Sigmar (for example Gortrek finally finding Felix Jaeger, or Vermintide 3 bringing the Ubersreik 5 to Age of Sigmar.) Not all bad endings are good, and not all good endings are bad. And there’s plenty of room and time to add those twists to the lore without any need to retcon.
The last thing AoS probably needs is to keep referencing WHFB stuff.
That all sounds like you’re not actually endeared to it but putting a mask of an Ex’s face on a new partner and pretending they’re someone else so you can tolerate them…while still asking your Ex to take you back.
Great stuff as always chaps.
The AOS mini stuff is very interesting. I’m not sure any of them were ever designed for ToW and repurposed, the design styles will always have similarities because of their origins, but I can certainly imagine a scenario where ToW was prevented from pursuing some avenues because of the inevitable clashes with AOS planned releases.
No. 6 th edition siege rules should be your start. There are a few people who have kitbashed their own rules “ based loosely on these”. I recommend this. Also might be interesting to just use the current building a terrain rules ….. I’m excited to hear what you got cooking 🧑🍳
Warhammer Siege was a third edition book. One of my favorite!
Thank you guys so much for your inspiration!
Your show is the best.
For narrative events, Mordian Glory has run a couple of AMAZING apocalypse scale 40k weekenders, might be worth taking a look at and chatting to him. They functioned really well as story generators and surprisingly well as actual games, I think.
If I was to summarise the state of Old World it would be that it has the best "vibe" of any GW game. It's fun! Strange things happen. Lots of rules holes to fall down (in a fun way). Nobody takes it too seriously (which is good). There are heaps of units and variety.
The timing fits perfectly with when Heresy tanks stopped being supported in 40K?
It happend sooner in 40k/30k, but that's also because Heresy 2.0 released some years sooner than Old World.
The backwards compatibility of Heresy models to 40k ended when 10th released in 2023. Around that time the Forge World monsters disappeared from the webcart and AoS as well.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld And that’s well into the development of Old World and would have thrown a planned cohabitation with AoS like you said in the video. Very sad. Feels like a lot of frustration for hobbyists and I’m sure strife for GW folk for pretty bad corporate incentive reasons. Ultimately more sales per SKU must be good for GW overall.
I was reading the arcane journal about kiknik and fun fact; kiknik is suspected to be more of a “title” name passed down from one rider of the white wolf to the next as they die and the wolf picks a new rider. Because the wolf is the one who picks lol
I buy almost exclusively AOS minis from GW for the old world.
One must love how Val embraces Canada's lumberjack legacy
man oh man... weather system is really interesting.
Also--as a big fan of the particularly splashy, chunky terrain pieces--would love to see an incorporation of something like mighty fortress.
OH SHIT 44 minute mark! Castle event let's GOOOOO
As a hardcore 40k player who loves the competitive and balanced gameplay, I gotta say, Warhammer: The Old World is a breath of fresh air. Its narrative-driven, less balanced approach lets me get super creative with my armies and dive deep into the lore. It's a nice change from the standardized and competetive-focsued play of 40k, which I also love. Both games are right now where I like them to be.
00:15
Vals knows his audience.
Most of us are just here for the primo man meat.
I used to play Flames of War tournaments (15mm WWII) but the community pivoted to "Campaign" weekends instead. These were map-based narrative events. They had a totally different vibe to tournaments - people were much more relaxed and the narrative provided lots of memorable moments - just like the rivers in your latest event seemed to. So I recommend narrative weekends for TOW.
Absolutely on board with Rob's take that the game has that "THIS IS COOL" factor.
I'm playing Empire, combined arms, and it's not competitive by any stretch. About half a dozen games in, and my 150pt General with Dragon bow has a kills list that's about 1,500 points long. They've never died, and in most games I've taken out either the enemy general or their big gribbly.
Crushing Victories: 0
Close, awesome Games: 6
Thats the spirit, sir!
I like the look of Val when Rob made a Deliverance reference haha.
00:35:14 Up-talkers deserve special treatment
Great stream gents! I'd love to see a joint stream between Square Based and Turin, playing some total warhammer!
Total war was my intro to warhammer fantasy
I think one of the most simple explanations is not that they were designing sculpts and lore together but maybe the Old World had way less budget and they decided to re use AoS future sculpts for example. And of course bo re-release of minis that already have an equivalent, like stone trolls for example
Almost certainty that. Like AoS1 had Stormcast, Kharadron & Gloomspite concept art from Blanche dating back to 2008-2010 before they released in 2015, 2017 & 2019.
The TOW team they put together likely saw Gitmob art and the like back in 2016-2018 when they thought nothing of it and were hoping it’d be usable without really communicating it(as GW doesn’t allow communication between studios)
Just to note, I would totally bring my warhammer fortress (all three walls and two towers of it) to a siege event. Reckon a lot of UK gamers would do the same, and you could probably get your twelve standardised castles that way.
For a second, I thought the Chaos Champion may have been Valkya before she became a Daemon Princess. Would have been dope to see some more tie-ins. Tie-ins sell more models, GW!! (See Young grim)
When you do a roleplaying campaign (a narrative lead story telling exercise) you have something called session 0 where the dungeon master provides a context, part of the plot and an overarching theme that the campaign will be set in.
The points you're making around 30 minutes in are exactly that. You've got a theme, whether it's the river or the volcano, or using buildings. You don't even need to be specific with the rules, you can tune them at a later date so long as they stick to that initial theme.
Danny Macdonald ran some really good ones at Red Dragon in Ottawa, but that was mostly 8e. Looking forward to more from him!
Your discussion about volcanoes got the brain ticking at 2am. These were my initial thoughts…. Worlds of Old Narrative League
Round One: Sylvannian Night Fight
No LOS outside 12”
Shooting over 6” is double range
Dangerous terrain checks in all charges
Round 2: Badland Boom Mountain
Volcano in centre of board
Glow:No LOS unless within 12” of volcano
Gloom: -1LD within 6” of volcano (smog)
Round 3: Norscan Winter Nights
Blizzard: Range reduced 6”
Deep Snow: Roll charges, take the lowest.
Round 4: Drought in the Darklands
-1 move
-1 Str on charge
Round 5: Slippery Claws Sea
-1 to Hit Ranged
-1 AP
I’m also about to run a 3 round tournament where the more VPs scored overall (both sides) impacts the scores for the players. The bloodier the better basically.
Frühlingsoffensive in South Germany takes place every year on a castle (40K though, 20-30 participants) is a narrative event that rocks.
I doubt someone at the top who made the strategic decision to stop models from being used across game systems is unhappy old world is performing. They probably made the decision to make more money - if you want to play two games you have to buy two models, not one. So they are probably very happy that despite that decision old world is still selling well and it actually validates that decision.
Oh I know these feels! I've got tons of armies on the shelves but the majority are actually "Legacy." For me I went with the army that just sung to me the most... and that was Orcs and Goblins... and I've barely played anything outside of that. My runner up is definitely Vampire Counts due to Empire being a bit of a bummer.
Something I think that's great for getting going on a totally new project is waiting for an Arcane Journal and picking an army of infamy. They've all been really uniquely themed so far and really good at "re-mixing" the parent army mostly by reducing choices. So ... waiting for Helfs might be the ticket!
The price for old sculpts and reasonable rules books are why I'm into Old World. I hope GW understands how well pricing can lead to wider popularity and yes, profit. I can't afford the other games but have so much fun for HALF the price of an army in AOS or 40K. GW prices out Old World, I will have fun with Warlord games systems
I just want Kholek rules again. And a dragon ogre army in the Beastmen supplement!
As the Andy who brought his beastmen I can honestly say this rivers event was incredible and crucially, very much competitive. People (smarter ones than me) adjusted their army builds accordingly but it added an extra flavour to what I think is already a decent ruleset! Roll on bridges/castles/ events in due course then let's mix them all together!
IIRC Beast men already have some advantages for the river scenario, lots of "move through cover" Reduces the casualties in dangerous terrain.
For Narrative events - talk to the Box of Frogs guys in the Derby area. They’ve been running a campaign set in Araby with a rolling story across their events, custom scenarios, campaign map, special publications and a crowd of chill fun gamers.
I took my Chaos Dwarfs and handed out flyers advertising for ‘volunteer positions’ working in the Darklands.
In the last day event I had to defend a camel train marching across the deserts, explored some old ruins and summoned a sphinx that game me a riddle, as well as navigated some treacherous sands to battle Dark Elves.
Highly recommend!!!
Also worth checking out the Albion themed campaign, which Joe Bain and comrades ran for 6th a few years ago. I missed it, but it had a real time map based campaign, moving your armies around, when you met another army or entered a location with an enemy in, you went and started playing. If someone else moved to the map section, they joined in on the same table. It sounds like it was terrific fun.
Another shout out to the Everchosen 6th Ed tournaments, from Tales of the Old World, which are still going on and have an ongoing narrative theme for each tourney! Very cool.
One effect of mixing up the scenarios with different terrain and things like weather rules is that you’ll attract a different type of player. If you want to see more themed/narrative lists and less waac super meta lists, throwing curves into the game might get that.
Tangent on Castles. Will we see Siege rules in this edition?
EDIT: Val just said Siege event whilst I typed this!!
The siege book you mentioned Val was for Third edition and crazily had siege rules for Warhammer fantasy and 40k in the same book! There was also a siege supplement book for 5th. 6th even had siege rules in the core rulebook!
Played my first Old World game with a friend a few days ago. My TKs vs his WoC. Unfortunately I set up the board with a ton of terrain (like a heavily populated AoS board - I have just finished a sigmarite mauseleum so just added that to my regular terrain).... Damn I had no idea jow much that would mess me up. My 3 Chariots and Necropolis Knights just couldn't manouver at all, they were either blocked by my skellies or by the terrain!. Was good fun though - especially my friend's gorebeast chariot exploding as it yolo'd itself through the Spirit Vortex my High Priest had just conjured!
Will do a lot less terrain next time!
18:49 units are just so much more cinematic😎👌❤️
@SquareBasedOldWorld You boys are in luck. I ran a 2 day narrative Old World event with a linked story between games, used weather conditions as fun simple modifiers for each new map, and the culminating 3rd battle was a castle siege. Players had to coordinate how to spend support points and build their siege machines for the 3rd game (thatll make Val happy I'm sure). It wasnt a huge event, just six players, but everyone had a stupendous time. Just be careful making the giant floating pyramid for the final battle *wink*. Let me know if you want the rules pdfs I cooked up, I'm happy to share!
There is even a chaos lord listed under aos on the website that has an image on a square base!
I believe that’s a holdover model from WHFB though, like the chaos chariot
I went to an 8th ed narrative blood in the badlands event in christchurch NZ a while ago and it was great.
I’m currently working on a massive kitbags army that I can use as many types of army in both systems.
"It's must stick in the craw of whomever made that decision."
May it stick to them like an Annoyance of Netlings!!!
😅
A narrative event on short notice. Sounds great! It happens Dec 1st. Video is released Dec 2nd. 😥
It got postponed! Happening in January now.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Oh awesome! Thanks for the update
No shade on AoS intended here, but it can't compete in that "epic" feel or look that TOW can offer with ranks of soldiers and cavalry gives as they march to battle. Your absolutely right, and that is something you get watching things like Lord of the Rings or any fantasy/historical film that involves massive set piece battles.
I can imagine something - though I am not sure what - that could lead to a cool interaction between dwarf miners and a volcano…
Regarding the goblin releases, Val is simply saying what everyone is thinking. He doesn’t need to back peddle whatsoever. Plus, Mustaches can simply BE, and do not require “dancing.” The movement that makes the stache look cooler is that of a raised eyebrow, strangely enough.🤔
Can we get the river pack anywhere? Maps, Missions, and STLs for the river tiles?
spamming giants in the 1st TW online was great, especially if your opponent had a bad PC. There is something deeply satisfying about watching a giant slow-mo swing a tree into Karl Franz's head. Also if you did need a sweat shop for terrain painting for a worlds i'd do some of it.
Does it also fit with the waves? Night Goblins are O&G wave 2 because they didn’t expect they’d need them?
Val is correct about the mustache dance - you definitely lost me, but not for the reason he thought. Mustache dance was *too* sexy.
Volcano rules:
At the end of each round, centre the 5" blast template on the volcano and roll a scatter dice and 4D6: move the template a number of inches equal to the roll in the direction indicated. And model under the template suffers a S4 Ap - hit with the Flaming Attacks rule; a model directly under the central hole instead suffers a S7 AP -2 hit with the Flaming attacks rule. If a "hit" is rolled on the scatter dice, the volcano belches smoke and choking ash, forcing all flyers to the ground for the following turn - all models on the battlefield with the Flyer rule may not use it and must move normally across the battlefield using their standard M value.
1) You could have a wild fire, each turn the "wind" can change direction, stand still, explode in all directions, creates new fires, or burn out.
2) You could have flooding! Rivers, lakes, etc.
3) Snow! How many armies have been wasted purely by maneuvering in the snow or being overwhelmed by cold?
4) Food, water, disease, money.
5) Supply chains, escort quests, bounties for units! Table top games are a lot like Civilization, maybe table top war gaming can learn from video gaming. Bring back the roleplaying!
Another banging episode chaps
I don’t mind the Empire guy, but he’s not what I’ve got in mind for my Empire general, he’s way too ‘noblebright’ (and a little World of Warcraft with the shoulders). My guy will be modelled a lot more on Harry Flashman, cowardly, caddish fop who manages to mess things up spectacularly but always seems to land on his feet.
I try to always run a battle like the river lands , just tweaking the battles and the terrain a bit. Everyone always loves it. Also I convert allot of OLD battles from old white dwarf and citidel journal. Very fun. Just did grimdals tomb this weekend. So cool. The dwarf ranger line hammer destroyed me but I almost go to the damn tomb. I recommend 😆
Huge medieval total war fan. Still play it.
Hobgrot Slittaz have no business being with Kruleboys (and I think don’t even share a keyword?) but are clearly Hobgoblins in the Legion of Azgorh aesthetic.
They have the Kruleboyz keyword. They’re apart of their Morruk Kultur along with Yoofs(young orruks) that don’t make the cut for ‘Ardboyz so use wits over brawn.
And to AoS’ credit the Hobgrots are different physically with their orange skin, lanky arms & small Orc-like tusks making them half-orruks compared to Hobgoblins which are just tall green gobbos with Glasgow smiles & hunched backs.
We also need the come back of the Skullvane!
We play historicals mainly. Sounds like you guys are more tourney players.
Looking at playing OW in more of a traditional style. We’ll play with what I bring and base scenarios off this. Winning is great, but for us it’s the company, drinks, and shit talking that make the night.
Wondering if dragons are so OP, because they should only come out for certain games, not because they fit the points.
Going to build a collection based on the minis I like and can afford rather than points. One day, I would LOVE to play Bloodbath at Orcs Drift with the new rules. Think I need to get moving on that.
Limit models in a unit... OR... limit WOUNDS in a unit? 😲
Maybe the TOW lower price point was baked-in to their plan all along, so they released the new minis in the range where the price point is higher by design, thus more profits.
So it’s not that they are “not releasing products for the new game” just that they are doing so in boxes stamped with their “premium flagship” game branding.
So TOW packaging will be reserved mostly for dedicated characters or with old world flavor, then you bulk out the guts of the army with 3D go brrr…wait, I mean with AoS troops.
The Goroan empire shall not tolerate such blatant specism to compare them to the lowly Beastmen Minotaurs!!
(Seriously, the Ogroid Thaumaturge was a 2017 release and set their lore up back then as a empire that left Destruction for Chaos which built up the Myrmidon & Theridons as more remnants gaining high standings in S2D’s armies as legion masters & quality smiths. That’s why they’re “Slaves” like the other corrupted races such as Sphiranxes who worked for Teclis & Fomoroids)
Challenge for Rob….Siege rules in a tournament setting :) (I played the old siege rules within 8th ed WHFB….it worked, but u had to exclude my Arcknarock, it was clearly going to be OP)
HAHA…made this comment before you mention castle event :)
Is that Samus in Andy/richies army? Love that
Buncha goofbags, stay square blessed , Nurg luvs ya
I don't think the new wolf riders were designed for Old World but I do think it's crazy that GW don't make the models officially usable in both systems. Same goes for Horus Heresy. New Heresy tanks came out alongside Death Korps but you're not allowed to use those tanks (even though the Death Korps do use those types of tanks?). Seems nuts. Luckily we don't have to obey GW-So use whatever models you like :)
Agree with val on the type of rules writing of warhammer vs standartized , it‘s not what I want, the cutrent 40K/AoS style of rules robs the experience in a way.
I don’t want to stand on anyones feet yet the style of modern rules pushed me away from AoS. AoS plays like a sterile board game to me (which hurts i used to love it and I have like 12 armies 😢)
TOW however got me hyped, I am using my CoS as imperials (converter bases) sone are permanently on Squares, I startes conversions again, which used to be a passion. All around great.
Merch is looking 💯 🔥
I'll always be disappointed that GW has decided that all the various games will be siloed away from each other. My first army was chaos daemons, so that I could play equally between 40k and fantasy at the time without having two separate huge projects.I'm glad that the community events have been keeping the legacy factions included.
Rob, please make a dragon slayer themed army. Have a Dovahkiin general. Success comes purely from slaying the dragons of the Old World.
1:03:19 I love 8th too!
Always an excuse for a moustache 👌❤️
Really wish GW would stop acting as if letting people use armies across games would make them implode. Great episode guys 🎉
whoa… Val’s diabolical laugh scared me!!!
I have a big chaos army from mostly AoS stuff, i never got around to painting it, because i really didnt get into AoS, It just was not for me.
But now that old world is released, ive renewed my interest, long story short., I feel abit the fractious nature of GW is rubbing off on me,
I dont like the old sculpts that much, and I have mostly AoS stuff, but at the same time, I get kind of salty, and dont want to support AoS, wish i could make GW know that all those AoS stonks that ive bought is for TOW. I feel kinda bad about it, I bought the expensive GW bases atleast to toss some money into the right IP.
Someone at GW needs to be hit in the face with a big salmon
Val, sent you a message with the event pack i did recently for a Heresy narrative event. Was a fun day, third one ive done.
If you start total war, you should collaberate with Turin 😊
Val talk to Mordian Glory he runs an narrative Apocalypse event each year im sure hed love to talk story
Square Based XL ❌
Square Based (Rio) Grande ✅
Hello! Could you please, please upload more episodes on spotify?🙏 The last episode available there is the arcane journal for warriors of chaos. So 8 or 9 shows are missing from that platform! I listen to you in my car.
I agree that your event wasn’t a narrative one… people seem to call anything outside of vanilla tournaments “narrative”… this feels more like “open play” aka you’ve turned the vanilla game into how you’d like it
Could someone give a timestamp of the empire leaks? or was it just clickbait again?
It saddens me to hear you say ban the green knight all the time. He's such a sick character with an evocative model that belongs on the tabletop. I will agree he needs an FAQ and a bit of a nerf though!
Siege was a 5th Edition book and 6th Edition also hade siege rules in the Core Rulebook.
Damn, does AoS make any new models?
Not being able to fly over rivers seems really odd and off putting (I don’t play any dragon factions)
so are we getting tired of all this competitiveness and just appreciate the hobby?
Are we becoming the samurais contemplating the garden?
Wooooooooo
And Val looks great, get him a smoking jacket
Calling Warhammer Siege the best supplement when General's Compendium exist.
Guys you've missed the greatest book in your hobby life if that's the case 😅
He needs a beret