Incredible Suzy. Thank you for your anointed teaching, sincerity and compassion with which you delivered this. So grateful to Jon, you and your church for your ministry.
This was a blessing to hear sister, thank you for your boldness and willingness to remain faithful to what the Lord is speaking through you. WE NEED THIS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST!
In the hope of convincing the reader that it will be worth reading this post let me start by pointing out that the presenter offered no answer to the central question that was the subject of her talk (which is not surprising - since the first world church currently operates without an answer to it) - why does God require that believers suffer if in the age to come God is going to give them new bodies which are not subject to weakness - and also deliver them from the devil's temptation (the devil will be destroyed)? What is the purpose of life after having come to believe? Why can't believers go immediately to heaven? Remaining to tell others about God is not an answer - since if it was it would imply that God is only doing necessary work in the lives of those on earth who don't yet believe - with life as a believer having no relational meaning other than to respond to the knowledge of God the believer already has. If so life for the believer would be an INTERRUPTION to the deepening of their relationship with God. Recently I was attempting to answer two questions that seemed to me to be entirely unrelated to suffering. Each question I had not considered before - but to my surprise answering the two questions led to the startling realisation that I had ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWER to the question I just raised. (I did have an explanation for why non-believers needed to suffer - the presenter mentioned it - God has subjected creation to futility so that people will turn from their corruption back to God - Romans 8:20-21). Anyway the two questions were (stick with me if your initial reaction is that these questions couldn't possibly be related to determining the purpose of this life having come to believe): -who is to say that people who believe won’t sin in heaven - if they have free will? -why does God give human beings a second chance when they turn away from God - while not offering a second chance to the devil - and the fallen angels who aligned themselves with him? (See 2 Peter 2:4). I ended up answering the second question first - the answer I came to helped me to then answer the first question. The answer I came to for the second question is that unlike human beings the devil and his angels chose to rebel against God without being subject to any temptation - whereas ALL initial human turning away from God's revelation to our consciences and in creation is the result of temptation. Genesis 1 to 3 isn't about how two individuals - Adam and Eve - came to sin - screwing up the world for the rest of us by making us all inclined towards sin from birth - for two reasons. First original sin is false doctrine - see Deuteronomy 1:39 and also Isaiah 7:16 for proof that young children don't know right from wrong. Original sin can only survive these verses if sin is about the act - not the state of mind and heart. Assume for a moment that original sin is correct doctrine - it would require us to believe that Jesus is as white hot angry with the woman at the well as he is with the Pharisees he calls a brood of vipers. I rest my case. And second we KNOW that Genesis 1 to 3 is about how ALL human beings (except Jesus) come to sin because in 1 Timothy 2:14 Paul uses Eve's being the one to be deceived as a reason for why NO woman should teach men or have spiritual authority in respect of men - he would not do so if Eve was not both an individual and a representative for all women - and Adam the same for all men. ALL human sin (with the exception of refusing the gospel - which God makes a completely free and fully knowing choice) is the result of temptation (whether the temptation be the world, the flesh, or the devil - see how each of these is present in Matthew 4 where Jesus is tempted in the desert by the devil having fasted for forty days and nights). Now to my answer to the first question. With the realisation that human sin is due to temptation which God himself doesn't cause but permits (see James 1:13) - and knowing that Job 1 shows that the devil must ask God for permission before acting - with God only giving permission when he his own good purpose in giving permission which cannot be achieved through any other means - I suddenly realised that the purpose of temptation combined with suffering in this life is to create an Eden which unlike the first Eden has no weakness - an Eden in which those admitted to eternity with God will NEVER freely choose against him (in that age). I realised that while God is going to give us new bodies - and while he is going to destroy the devil - what he isn't able to directly transform is our free will (without diminishing our humanity). Therefore the purpose of THIS LIFE must be to train us so that we will never freely turn from God in the age to come when not subject to any kind of temptation or ignorance. This is what it means to be complete - to lack nothing (see James 1:4). It was only having reached this conclusion that I realised that I had been operating without any reason for why the period after having come to believe is necessary - nor any reasonable explanation for why suffering must be endured in this life. One thing that increased my confidence that I had found the right answer for the purpose of this life is that it matched what is already generally accepted from scripture concerning those who end up never turning to God - that life on earth exists to ensure that such people will never turn to God. For those who end up believing life is a training process which ensures that no believer will ever use their free will in the age to come to turn away FROM God. Even Christ - though perfect - was made perfect in the same way (in his humanness) through suffering: Hebrews 5:8-10 ESV Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
There are various reasons for why human beings suffer: 1. God’s judgement against human beings for turning away from him. (See Romans 1:18-33 and Genesis 3). We know that Genesis 1 to 3 - instead of being only about two people - Adam and Eve - is about how all human beings begin life (in right relationship with God) and are then all drawn away through temptation - because the reason Paul gives in 1 Timothy 2:14 for why NO woman should teach a man would not make sense if Eve was not also a representative for all women (and therefore Adam a representative for all men). 2. ‘Consequences’ arising from people turning away from God - the giver of life and the sustainer of creation - including death. (Romans 6:23). Note that death isn’t a one to one judgement for people’s sin. David’s seven day old baby born from Bathsheba dies as judgement for David’s sin before having the chance to be a sinner (Deut 1:39, Isaiah 7:16) - and also Enoch and Elijah are taken up - they are not subject to any judgement applied to humanity as a single group- but they would have to be if death was God's judgement against all humanity. 3. God’s subjecting a sinful world to futility as part of maximally influencing people to turn back to him. (Romans 8:20-21) 4. God allowing believers to suffer (either at the hand of others - or due to demonic temptation) as part of training them to use their freedom in the age to come to always turn to God - benefited in the age to come by the fact that then people are no longer subject to the weakness of their fallen bodies - or to temptation. (James 1:2-4, Philippians 3:21) What about earthquakes and birth defects? How can we know which category they fall under when the bible doesn't expressly say? We can know they cannot be part of either an individual or group judgement for sin because they each affect babies and babies haven’t had the opportunity to yet become sinners (see the verses quoted in Category 2 for proof of that). Category 3 above also doesn’t make sense - since if a baby either suffers or dies in an earthquake this doesn’t subject them to futility in the hope they will turn back to God - since they haven't yet become a sinner. In the same vein a birth defect exists before someone has had the opportunity to sin and therefore needs to have their life subjected to futility. While a birth defect or the effects of an earthquake might cause suffering that can train a person of sufficient age to always freely choose God in the age to come that isn’t a reason to suggest why these specific types of suffering are necessary instead of some other kind of suffering. The only category which makes sense is category 2 - these things are the CONSEQUENCE of a world which was designed to function through the life of God becoming separated from God’s life. However while these things are not an APPLICATION of God's justice - they are still subject to God's individual justice. If there is no good reason why suffering associated with these things will contribute to the preparation of the believer for the age to come God will not require individuals to be subject to such events. Consider as an example of God's continuing sovereignty over events in creation the way in which Jesus explains in John 21:21-22 that John's service to Christ will not require him to be martyred - while Peter and other disciples will be martyred for their faith. God exercises complete sovereignty over who will be required to suffer in death and who will not. Note that physical illness does not fall under any of these categories - I don’t see any reason in the bible for why people must be sick - except in the case of people that God makes ill as judgement for their misbehaviour (1 Corinthians 11:28-30) - but even those people are free to repent (presumably leading to their healing). See John 9:3 where Jesus explains both that illness is never due to the sin of one’s ancestors - and is presumably often not due to the sin of the person who is ill. One thing that is clear from the different categories of suffering - if the reason why we suffer is so that we will either return to God - or deepen relationship with God - it's clear that there is no good use in suffering where we have no insight as to why we suffer. We certainly don't always know why we are suffering while we are - but we should expect that God wants to give us insight into his character - and as part of that his good intention. ARE BIRTH DEFECTS AND EARTHQUAKES ‘NATURAL EVILS’? The presenter described birth defects and earthquakes as ‘natural evils’. She may not have used this term with the intention of implying that they are the result of evil - or she may have. She didn’t make it absolutely clear - she said only that the reason why people have birth defects and why earthquakes happen is that human beings introduced sin into the world - with that sin changing creation. It wasn't clear whether the presenter believed that birth defects and earthquakes were the result of opportunity being given to the devil through human sin to alter creation - or whether she believes these things are just consequences - without providing any opportunity for evil (in respect of creation). I of course just explained why I believe earthquakes and birth defects cannot be the judgement of God - I believe the more accurate thing to say is that these things are THE RESULT of human beings being separated from God - the constant source of creative life. If there is a causal link between human sin and the fall of creation that means the devil cannot be involved - the devi could only be involved (in what happens to creation) if God created a world in which if human beings sinned God's sovereignty over nature would be given over to the devil. But if this was the case it means that God's sovereignty over people being saved in Christ is also erased since all the devil needs to do with his newly acquired sovereignty over nature is ensure no-one gets saved by causing earthquakes and floods to cover the planet - killing every baby before it has the opportunity to turn to Christ. (Or could God in that situation save every person he knew WOULD HAVE turned to him if they had lived longer? If so that would be to admit that this life on earth has no real purpose). If there is ANY area in which God's sovereignty is diminished by human sin then all of Christianity falls.
Incredible Suzy. Thank you for your anointed teaching, sincerity and compassion with which you delivered this. So grateful to Jon, you and your church for your ministry.
This was a blessing to hear sister, thank you for your boldness and willingness to remain faithful to what the Lord is speaking through you. WE NEED THIS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST!
Thank you, thank you. I don’t have words. Your teaching is life.
This is a big sermon! Loving the series so far.
Most excellent
In the hope of convincing the reader that it will be worth reading this post let me start by pointing out that the presenter offered no answer to the central question that was the subject of her talk (which is not surprising - since the first world church currently operates without an answer to it) - why does God require that believers suffer if in the age to come God is going to give them new bodies which are not subject to weakness - and also deliver them from the devil's temptation (the devil will be destroyed)? What is the purpose of life after having come to believe? Why can't believers go immediately to heaven? Remaining to tell others about God is not an answer - since if it was it would imply that God is only doing necessary work in the lives of those on earth who don't yet believe - with life as a believer having no relational meaning other than to respond to the knowledge of God the believer already has. If so life for the believer would be an INTERRUPTION to the deepening of their relationship with God.
Recently I was attempting to answer two questions that seemed to me to be entirely unrelated to suffering. Each question I had not considered before - but to my surprise answering the two questions led to the startling realisation that I had ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWER to the question I just raised. (I did have an explanation for why non-believers needed to suffer - the presenter mentioned it - God has subjected creation to futility so that people will turn from their corruption back to God - Romans 8:20-21).
Anyway the two questions were (stick with me if your initial reaction is that these questions couldn't possibly be related to determining the purpose of this life having come to believe):
-who is to say that people who believe won’t sin in heaven - if they have free will?
-why does God give human beings a second chance when they turn away from God - while not offering a second chance to the devil - and the fallen angels who aligned themselves with him? (See 2 Peter 2:4).
I ended up answering the second question first - the answer I came to helped me to then answer the first question.
The answer I came to for the second question is that unlike human beings the devil and his angels chose to rebel against God without being subject to any temptation - whereas ALL initial human turning away from God's revelation to our consciences and in creation is the result of temptation. Genesis 1 to 3 isn't about how two individuals - Adam and Eve - came to sin - screwing up the world for the rest of us by making us all inclined towards sin from birth - for two reasons. First original sin is false doctrine - see Deuteronomy 1:39 and also Isaiah 7:16 for proof that young children don't know right from wrong. Original sin can only survive these verses if sin is about the act - not the state of mind and heart. Assume for a moment that original sin is correct doctrine - it would require us to believe that Jesus is as white hot angry with the woman at the well as he is with the Pharisees he calls a brood of vipers. I rest my case. And second we KNOW that Genesis 1 to 3 is about how ALL human beings (except Jesus) come to sin because in 1 Timothy 2:14 Paul uses Eve's being the one to be deceived as a reason for why NO woman should teach men or have spiritual authority in respect of men - he would not do so if Eve was not both an individual and a representative for all women - and Adam the same for all men. ALL human sin (with the exception of refusing the gospel - which God makes a completely free and fully knowing choice) is the result of temptation (whether the temptation be the world, the flesh, or the devil - see how each of these is present in Matthew 4 where Jesus is tempted in the desert by the devil having fasted for forty days and nights).
Now to my answer to the first question. With the realisation that human sin is due to temptation which God himself doesn't cause but permits (see James 1:13) - and knowing that Job 1 shows that the devil must ask God for permission before acting - with God only giving permission when he his own good purpose in giving permission which cannot be achieved through any other means - I suddenly realised that the purpose of temptation combined with suffering in this life is to create an Eden which unlike the first Eden has no weakness - an Eden in which those admitted to eternity with God will NEVER freely choose against him (in that age). I realised that while God is going to give us new bodies - and while he is going to destroy the devil - what he isn't able to directly transform is our free will (without diminishing our humanity). Therefore the purpose of THIS LIFE must be to train us so that we will never freely turn from God in the age to come when not subject to any kind of temptation or ignorance. This is what it means to be complete - to lack nothing (see James 1:4). It was only having reached this conclusion that I realised that I had been operating without any reason for why the period after having come to believe is necessary - nor any reasonable explanation for why suffering must be endured in this life.
One thing that increased my confidence that I had found the right answer for the purpose of this life is that it matched what is already generally accepted from scripture concerning those who end up never turning to God - that life on earth exists to ensure that such people will never turn to God. For those who end up believing life is a training process which ensures that no believer will ever use their free will in the age to come to turn away FROM God. Even Christ - though perfect - was made perfect in the same way (in his humanness) through suffering:
Hebrews 5:8-10 ESV
Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
There are various reasons for why human beings suffer:
1. God’s judgement against human beings for turning away from him. (See Romans 1:18-33 and Genesis 3). We know that Genesis 1 to 3 - instead of being only about two people - Adam and Eve - is about how all human beings begin life (in right relationship with God) and are then all drawn away through temptation - because the reason Paul gives in 1 Timothy 2:14 for why NO woman should teach a man would not make sense if Eve was not also a representative for all women (and therefore Adam a representative for all men).
2. ‘Consequences’ arising from people turning away from God - the giver of life and the sustainer of creation - including death. (Romans 6:23). Note that death isn’t a one to one judgement for people’s sin. David’s seven day old baby born from Bathsheba dies as judgement for David’s sin before having the chance to be a sinner (Deut 1:39, Isaiah 7:16) - and also Enoch and Elijah are taken up - they are not subject to any judgement applied to humanity as a single group- but they would have to be if death was God's judgement against all humanity.
3. God’s subjecting a sinful world to futility as part of maximally influencing people to turn back to him. (Romans 8:20-21)
4. God allowing believers to suffer (either at the hand of others - or due to demonic temptation) as part of training them to use their freedom in the age to come to always turn to God - benefited in the age to come by the fact that then people are no longer subject to the weakness of their fallen bodies - or to temptation. (James 1:2-4, Philippians 3:21)
What about earthquakes and birth defects? How can we know which category they fall under when the bible doesn't expressly say? We can know they cannot be part of either an individual or group judgement for sin because they each affect babies and babies haven’t had the opportunity to yet become sinners (see the verses quoted in Category 2 for proof of that). Category 3 above also doesn’t make sense - since if a baby either suffers or dies in an earthquake this doesn’t subject them to futility in the hope they will turn back to God - since they haven't yet become a sinner. In the same vein a birth defect exists before someone has had the opportunity to sin and therefore needs to have their life subjected to futility. While a birth defect or the effects of an earthquake might cause suffering that can train a person of sufficient age to always freely choose God in the age to come that isn’t a reason to suggest why these specific types of suffering are necessary instead of some other kind of suffering. The only category which makes sense is category 2 - these things are the CONSEQUENCE of a world which was designed to function through the life of God becoming separated from God’s life. However while these things are not an APPLICATION of God's justice - they are still subject to God's individual justice. If there is no good reason why suffering associated with these things will contribute to the preparation of the believer for the age to come God will not require individuals to be subject to such events. Consider as an example of God's continuing sovereignty over events in creation the way in which Jesus explains in John 21:21-22 that John's service to Christ will not require him to be martyred - while Peter and other disciples will be martyred for their faith. God exercises complete sovereignty over who will be required to suffer in death and who will not.
Note that physical illness does not fall under any of these categories - I don’t see any reason in the bible for why people must be sick - except in the case of people that God makes ill as judgement for their misbehaviour (1 Corinthians 11:28-30) - but even those people are free to repent (presumably leading to their healing). See John 9:3 where Jesus explains both that illness is never due to the sin of one’s ancestors - and is presumably often not due to the sin of the person who is ill.
One thing that is clear from the different categories of suffering - if the reason why we suffer is so that we will either return to God - or deepen relationship with God - it's clear that there is no good use in suffering where we have no insight as to why we suffer. We certainly don't always know why we are suffering while we are - but we should expect that God wants to give us insight into his character - and as part of that his good intention.
ARE BIRTH DEFECTS AND EARTHQUAKES ‘NATURAL EVILS’?
The presenter described birth defects and earthquakes as ‘natural evils’. She may not have used this term with the intention of implying that they are the result of evil - or she may have. She didn’t make it absolutely clear - she said only that the reason why people have birth defects and why earthquakes happen is that human beings introduced sin into the world - with that sin changing creation. It wasn't clear whether the presenter believed that birth defects and earthquakes were the result of opportunity being given to the devil through human sin to alter creation - or whether she believes these things are just consequences - without providing any opportunity for evil (in respect of creation). I of course just explained why I believe earthquakes and birth defects cannot be the judgement of God - I believe the more accurate thing to say is that these things are THE RESULT of human beings being separated from God - the constant source of creative life.
If there is a causal link between human sin and the fall of creation that means the devil cannot be involved - the devi could only be involved (in what happens to creation) if God created a world in which if human beings sinned God's sovereignty over nature would be given over to the devil. But if this was the case it means that God's sovereignty over people being saved in Christ is also erased since all the devil needs to do with his newly acquired sovereignty over nature is ensure no-one gets saved by causing earthquakes and floods to cover the planet - killing every baby before it has the opportunity to turn to Christ. (Or could God in that situation save every person he knew WOULD HAVE turned to him if they had lived longer? If so that would be to admit that this life on earth has no real purpose). If there is ANY area in which God's sovereignty is diminished by human sin then all of Christianity falls.