The flail conditioner was invented by the Swiss Company Bucher-Guyer and first went into production at the Kuhn plant in the 1960s or early 70s. I think both systems do a good job conditioning or without it. If one has a haytedder it works well, some tedder manufactures for the 4 star models have a second pto one can switch to so one can make small windrows or night windrows.
After years of labor and money keeping my haybines going in northern New York for beef cattle I went back to a MF 41 cycle mower that I found almost new. With a 245 MF tractor I baled 400 to 500 round bales a year. The 245 cost very little in fuel to mow this hay. Many of a time I mowed my fields across the fence from my neighbor using a haybine and baled the same time as he did. I did have a v-rake which I believe helped dry hay quicker than a side rake. I never turned my hay until I raked before baling.
Thanks for sharing! I appreciate collecting those anecdotes of people’s experiences with no conditioner - I feel the same way, comparing to others making hay in the same weather stretches.
Very well stated. I run a 3 point disc mower, and get hay up with the rest of them. There are benefits to conditioning grass hay, but I don't have the tractor for it either, and make beautiful feed.
Thanks! Total agreement, thanks for weighing in. I think there are a lot of us out there, it's just funny how much the rhetoric of "you can't dry hay without a conditioner" took over popular opinion. I agree a conditioner does help even in grass hay, but when folks act like what I'm doing is impossible, yet I get great quality feed, it can be sort of funny. (And I'm with you on the quality part!)
Down South. our main crop is Hybrid varieties of Bermuda grass which has fine stems and leaves...... We use cart mounted disc mowers without any conditioners, Usually 3 days from standing to 4x5 rounds Ceased row cropping cotton and peanuts 6 years ago to growing and converting rounds into small squares....... About 35,000 last year supplied to 4 contracted TSC outlets n our area..... They Have a procurement agent that arranges the details with us and The Corporate Office..... The Store Gives Us A P,O, we fax to Corporate < They mail us a Check! They use our trailer to sell out of, That way, when a fresh load is requested...... all we have to do is "Drop & Hook"
I ran Kuhn cutters for years and bought a Vicon and it was the best cutter I ever ran. The triple blades would be a good choice for you with a smaller hp tractor.
I totally agree with you. I live in the deep south with crazy high humidity and almost no one uses conditioners here. Mostly grass hay down here but I also do Crimson Clover and Ryegrass in the spring with no problem. I have the Vermeer M6050 3point mower which runs the same 6 disc bar as your TM610. I run it on a 71 HP tractor and can cut 7 to 8 MPH and it does awesome. I also ted with a smaller tractor that sips fuel so I can get the job done just as quick and no burn any more fuel or have to buy a larger tractor. Been the hyaline path before, but my disc mower can cover the same ground twice as fast with less issues and maintenance.
Im with you. I cut grass hay here in NY with a sickle bar mower and a tedder. The hay is excellent quality. I can do it in 3 days under the right conditions. The tedder is the key to it.
We also moved away from conditioners and we now have a front and rear mower combination that's 20 foot wide with 115 hp. We mainly do silage and haylage but also the occasional hay. We have a 36 foot tedder so that was another reason to go without a conditioner. We were always a fan of a contitioner but we won't go back.
@@sandervanmiddelaar1120 that’s great!! Perennial rye is one of my favorites too, I have it in some fields here. Good yield, animals like it, and it has pretty quick dry down 😊
I farm in pa and I only use a sickle bar mower, no conditioner, no tedding, and I can have my hay baled in 3 days depending on weather, if a little cloudy maybe 4 days.. conditioners, tedders, hurt the hay more than anything, conditioners crack the stem releasing nutrients from the plant.. I feed less cause the nutrients are there..
Hey there, thanks for weighing in! That’s impressive dry time in your parts. I agree re: conditioner, though around here *have* to ted to have any chance of getting it in. Too much ground moisture and dew with thick hay. Though all grass hays (a little clover), so it’s all about how hard you ted it. Going more gently in a higher gear as it dries and there is minimal leaf damage in grass. I know alfalfa is a different story. Unscientific of me, but I also think non-conditioned grass hay might stand up to tedding better, as the leaves dry a little later in the process (being connected to an un-crimped stem to draw water.) Anyway, thanks for tuning in and sharing!
@@windrowfarm yes, that has been my experience with hay as well.. people laugh at me too when I tell them how I do my hay but the end product is way better for sure.. your on the right track on how you do your hay.. don't listen to some of these guys, what's the point of farming hundreds of acres of hay if it's not good quality. I'd rather do it my way on 50 acres and get good quality hay than do hundreds of acres and get poor quality hay..
Well I tend to think squeezing the hay takes out nutrients. I like to cut my hay early for quality rather than quantity. Also alfalfa dries nicely in the sun. The old fashioned hay smells so wonderful and leaves remain intact. Goats love it.
Thanks for weighing in! Where abouts are you located? Around here no tedder is pretty impossible, unfortunately. Wet ground, heavy dews, and short drying windows. But mostly grass hay so leaf loss is thankfully pretty minimal
I don't see anything wrong with just a disc mower. Alot of us here in Texas use them. Only time I use a conditioner is when I'm Cutting Sudangrass and I use steel rollers for that. But just like you said grass hay, it's not necessary, but yes it helps dry down. We have a particular Bermuda grass here in Texas, we call it Coastal, and we don't use conditioners on that, but some people do. Anyways, love your Channel and keep up the good work!!
Hey there, thanks! That makes sense, sudangrass is intense! I appreciate comparing notes on it, especially around the country. Do you have a few different mowers you use then, depending on the crop?
We Bale Tifton 44 Bermuda Hay......Hardly anyone in our area use any type of conditioners...We use Krone 320 disc mowers KMC cart mounted.....Maybe 1/2 day gained in dry down....
Our variety of Hybrid grass is a cross between a native Bermuda and one found growing by a railroad track in Germany It was developed in Tifton Georgia(Tifton 44) It is very winter hardy, Very fine stems and leaves, loves sandy soil and hot dry weather.......Perfect for the South
Hi there! Agreed on Alfalfa - I’m making all mixed grass hay, no alfalfa here, so that’s part of my reasoning. And gosh, at least around here the grass is so thick, and often wet/lodged, that a sickle bar would be an absolute nightmare. (I actually tried one my first year starting out.). Absolutely need the disc mower for speed and ability to cut down the hay no matter which way it’s leaning, or when trying to squeeze in a batch of hay between soaking rains. Thanks for tuning in!
I'm looking at getting my first haybine or diskbine this winter for next season. Here in the midwest, dairies grow pure alfalfa but beef and horse owners usually have some sort of mix. I would not be looking at a tedder just yet. Do you think I would be better off with a diskbine or a mower conditioner?
Hi there, sorry I missed this! Hmm. I feel like if alfalfa is in the mix, and you’re not tedding, that a conditioner would likely be helpful. But I honestly don’t have great experience with that situation, unfortunately.
I run a vicon 3 point....but a conditioner will greatly increase quality and especially palate ability of hay it makes the hay much softer...animals will consume better and much more efficiently
Thanks! That’s interesting, folks seem to swear by quality and palatability of what I make, which I credit partly to having no conditioner and allowing a more natural dry-down. But not discounting what you’re saying, I just don’t have experience to the contrary. Thanks for tuning in!
@@windrowfarm i dont have 1 yet either....and my hay is in top 5 in Tennessee in quality according to testing at UT....been involved with hay on and off for 30 years...animals hate the woody stems.....but when conditioned it cracks and shatters stems and make it much softer in mouth...and making it more desirable...crab grass is not the most nutritional grass....but it is the softest hay...even a hirse will eat it over any other hay if put up right....a conditioner is not needed to dry hay right...inless a legume with huge stems....a tedder is how you dry hay correctly and evenly....best tool to make quality and nutritional hay...hay i make is fed to my cows....rest sold to horse owners ...i cant make enough hay to meet demand....customers that buy my hay quit sweet feed after a month....dont need anything more when hay is quality...most people dry hay down way too much as well.....check your state university for % to aim for in your region....i make 4x5 rolls and shoot for 15...16%....protien and tdn....more than twice the majority of producer's
@@danielthomason5685 that’s great! Could’t agree more on all of that. A tedder when used right is the true swiss army tool. Makes sense what you’re saying about course stems. I have a lot of finer grass fields that I leave for later in the rotation for just that reason. Thanks for sharing!
The conditioner is not worth the extra moving parts more parts more problems especially if you have old equipment.😊 Almost all mower leave to narrow of wind row with grass piled on grass and i want it spread out as thin as possible taking advantage of all the Sun so dont mind tedding after I cut it helps drying and gives greener hay.
@@sacongo1624 Nice! Extra glad to hear agreement from someone regionally adjacent on the conditioner talk :) And oof, yep, we got about 5" this week in my part of MA. The bottom layer is all sleet. And season prep is on hold again...
we have a disc mower with no conditioner. day 1- cut. day 2- tedder. day 3 rake and bale. i don't know if a conditioner would change any of that. i really can't see it taking a day out of the cycle. i guess maybe if we used acid, we could do it in 2 days ... but id really like to avoid that. and wow! are they expensive! yikes!
@@windrowfarm northern ohio, mostly timothy, alphapla, clover and kentucky bluegrass mix ( horse hay ) we have a 3 point mounted kuhn 600HD disc cutter. dad and i bought it new about 12 years ago and we are still running it. we keep it stored inside and power wash it off after every season. we LOVE that cutter! we have a couple odd shaped fields and it would be difficult to do with a trail mower, where as the 3 point we raise the cutter bar, spin around, drop the cutter bar and keep cutting. if we had rectangle fields im sure we would have a trail mower, because the 3 point mower is HEAVY. we usually add 400-500 lbs of suitcase weights to the front, to keep the front wheels on the ground.
@@bobocaterpillar3697 nice!! I hear you on the 3-point, they’re handy for small fields! My fields are all pretty small, but I’m learning how to get this Vermeer swung around where I need to, it’s decently maneuverable. I don’t think my tractors could handle the weight of a comparable 3-point though…
I I’ve always never really been a fan of conditioners ether, my bosses Vermeer tm1210 is a absolute monster and with a 150hp tractor I can run laps around my bosses 200hp 16ft swather and I truly believe that’s because it doesn’t have that conditioner robing hp , and I truly don’t notice a difference between what I cut and my boss cuts ( non conditioned vs conditioned ) both get cut the same time and baled the same time so on regular grass and even most broadleafs I’ll still take the non conditioned mower Just my opinion
@@windrowfarm Dayton Texas, we do majority large square and round bales for the coastal cattle lands of Anahuac where fields are too wet to get equipment in, I work for a large rice farm but we do 700 acres of hay every year too
getting hay to dry has more to do with how much sun there is and how low of humidity, I run two discbines one has rubber rollers and one has flails and my brother inlaw runs a drum mower we have both cut on the same day and we bale on the same day, this is with grass hay anyways. leaves shattering on alfalfa and clover is a problem but not with grass hay. If what you have works for you then thats all that matters period.
The flail conditioner was invented by the Swiss Company Bucher-Guyer and first went into production at the Kuhn plant in the 1960s or early 70s. I think both systems do a good job conditioning or without it. If one has a haytedder it works well, some tedder manufactures for the 4 star models have a second pto one can switch to so one can make small windrows or night windrows.
@@goatfarmmb oh, that’s cool! I didn’t know the backstory of the flail/tine conditioner.
After years of labor and money keeping my haybines going in northern New York for beef cattle I went back to a MF 41 cycle mower that I found almost new. With a 245 MF tractor I baled 400 to 500 round bales a year. The 245 cost very little in fuel to mow this hay. Many of a time I mowed my fields across the fence from my neighbor using a haybine and baled the same time as he did. I did have a v-rake which I believe helped dry hay quicker than a side rake. I never turned my hay until I raked before baling.
Thanks for sharing! I appreciate collecting those anecdotes of people’s experiences with no conditioner - I feel the same way, comparing to others making hay in the same weather stretches.
Very well stated. I run a 3 point disc mower, and get hay up with the rest of them. There are benefits to conditioning grass hay, but I don't have the tractor for it either, and make beautiful feed.
Thanks! Total agreement, thanks for weighing in. I think there are a lot of us out there, it's just funny how much the rhetoric of "you can't dry hay without a conditioner" took over popular opinion. I agree a conditioner does help even in grass hay, but when folks act like what I'm doing is impossible, yet I get great quality feed, it can be sort of funny. (And I'm with you on the quality part!)
Down South. our main crop is Hybrid varieties of Bermuda grass which has fine stems and leaves...... We use cart mounted disc mowers without any conditioners, Usually 3 days from standing to 4x5 rounds Ceased row cropping cotton and peanuts 6 years ago to growing and converting rounds into small squares....... About 35,000 last year supplied to 4 contracted TSC outlets n our area..... They Have a procurement agent that arranges the details with us and The Corporate Office..... The Store Gives Us A P,O, we fax to Corporate < They mail us a Check! They use our trailer to sell out of, That way, when a fresh load is requested...... all we have to do is "Drop & Hook"
That makes sense! And wow, sounds like quite the setup. Thanks!!
I ran Kuhn cutters for years and bought a Vicon and it was the best cutter I ever ran. The triple blades would be a good choice for you with a smaller hp tractor.
I totally agree with you. I live in the deep south with crazy high humidity and almost no one uses conditioners here. Mostly grass hay down here but I also do Crimson Clover and Ryegrass in the spring with no problem. I have the Vermeer M6050 3point mower which runs the same 6 disc bar as your TM610. I run it on a 71 HP tractor and can cut 7 to 8 MPH and it does awesome. I also ted with a smaller tractor that sips fuel so I can get the job done just as quick and no burn any more fuel or have to buy a larger tractor. Been the hyaline path before, but my disc mower can cover the same ground twice as fast with less issues and maintenance.
Thanks for weighing in! And nice to know I’m not alone. That sounds like a nice setup! What type of bales do you do?
@@windrowfarm 4x5 rounds with a Vermeer 504R
Im with you. I cut grass hay here in NY with a sickle bar mower and a tedder. The hay is excellent quality. I can do it in 3 days under the right conditions. The tedder is the key to it.
That’s great! And couldn’t agree more. Especially with grass hay, it’s always about *how* you ted, in my opinion. Thanks for chiming in!
Hello good video helps to understand where you coming from. Have a great day
I am doing the same in Montana, no conditioner. Thanks
We also moved away from conditioners and we now have a front and rear mower combination that's 20 foot wide with 115 hp.
We mainly do silage and haylage but also the occasional hay. We have a 36 foot tedder so that was another reason to go without a conditioner.
We were always a fan of a contitioner but we won't go back.
Wow, that’s amazing! Where abouts are you? Thanks for weighing in, I appreciate it!
@@windrowfarm I am from the netherlands. we have a sea climate here so its quite humid here. and we mow perennial ryegrass
@@sandervanmiddelaar1120 that’s great!! Perennial rye is one of my favorites too, I have it in some fields here. Good yield, animals like it, and it has pretty quick dry down 😊
@@windrowfarm it is truly some amazing stuff. but it does take some effort to maintain it
@@windrowfarm I also want to add that i like the videos man. i will sure be following you for a while
I farm in pa and I only use a sickle bar mower, no conditioner, no tedding, and I can have my hay baled in 3 days depending on weather, if a little cloudy maybe 4 days.. conditioners, tedders, hurt the hay more than anything, conditioners crack the stem releasing nutrients from the plant.. I feed less cause the nutrients are there..
Hey there, thanks for weighing in! That’s impressive dry time in your parts. I agree re: conditioner, though around here *have* to ted to have any chance of getting it in. Too much ground moisture and dew with thick hay. Though all grass hays (a little clover), so it’s all about how hard you ted it. Going more gently in a higher gear as it dries and there is minimal leaf damage in grass. I know alfalfa is a different story.
Unscientific of me, but I also think non-conditioned grass hay might stand up to tedding better, as the leaves dry a little later in the process (being connected to an un-crimped stem to draw water.)
Anyway, thanks for tuning in and sharing!
@@windrowfarm yes, that has been my experience with hay as well.. people laugh at me too when I tell them how I do my hay but the end product is way better for sure.. your on the right track on how you do your hay.. don't listen to some of these guys, what's the point of farming hundreds of acres of hay if it's not good quality. I'd rather do it my way on 50 acres and get good quality hay than do hundreds of acres and get poor quality hay..
@@double-h-farms Exactly! Couldn’t agree more. Thanks so much, and same to you!
Well I tend to think squeezing the hay takes out nutrients. I like to cut my hay early for quality rather than quantity. Also alfalfa dries nicely in the sun. The old fashioned hay smells so wonderful and leaves remain intact. Goats love it.
Good day I made comment before u spoke about sickle mower. Thanks
Totally agree. No conditioner but also NO TEDDER! We run a wheel rake and just roll the windrows again if necessary. WAY less sed loss.
Thanks for weighing in! Where abouts are you located? Around here no tedder is pretty impossible, unfortunately. Wet ground, heavy dews, and short drying windows. But mostly grass hay so leaf loss is thankfully pretty minimal
I don't see anything wrong with just a disc mower. Alot of us here in Texas use them. Only time I use a conditioner is when I'm Cutting Sudangrass and I use steel rollers for that. But just like you said grass hay, it's not necessary, but yes it helps dry down. We have a particular Bermuda grass here in Texas, we call it Coastal, and we don't use conditioners on that, but some people do. Anyways, love your Channel and keep up the good work!!
Hey there, thanks! That makes sense, sudangrass is intense! I appreciate comparing notes on it, especially around the country. Do you have a few different mowers you use then, depending on the crop?
We Bale Tifton 44 Bermuda Hay......Hardly anyone in our area use any type of conditioners...We use Krone 320 disc mowers KMC cart mounted.....Maybe 1/2 day gained in dry down....
Our variety of Hybrid grass is a cross between a native Bermuda and one found growing by a railroad track in Germany It was developed in Tifton Georgia(Tifton 44) It is very winter hardy, Very fine stems and leaves, loves sandy soil and hot dry weather.......Perfect for the South
Good day from Ontario Canada. Yes with alfalfa u need conditioner
But 19,000. for wouldn't regular sickle mower work just as good?
Thanks
Hi there! Agreed on Alfalfa - I’m making all mixed grass hay, no alfalfa here, so that’s part of my reasoning. And gosh, at least around here the grass is so thick, and often wet/lodged, that a sickle bar would be an absolute nightmare. (I actually tried one my first year starting out.). Absolutely need the disc mower for speed and ability to cut down the hay no matter which way it’s leaning, or when trying to squeeze in a batch of hay between soaking rains.
Thanks for tuning in!
I'm looking at getting my first haybine or diskbine this winter for next season. Here in the midwest, dairies grow pure alfalfa but beef and horse owners usually have some sort of mix. I would not be looking at a tedder just yet. Do you think I would be better off with a diskbine or a mower conditioner?
Hi there, sorry I missed this! Hmm. I feel like if alfalfa is in the mix, and you’re not tedding, that a conditioner would likely be helpful. But I honestly don’t have great experience with that situation, unfortunately.
Nice educational video. Hope you get a bunch of hay cut and stored.
Thanks!! Same to you!
I run a vicon 3 point....but a conditioner will greatly increase quality and especially palate ability of hay it makes the hay much softer...animals will consume better and much more efficiently
Thanks! That’s interesting, folks seem to swear by quality and palatability of what I make, which I credit partly to having no conditioner and allowing a more natural dry-down. But not discounting what you’re saying, I just don’t have experience to the contrary.
Thanks for tuning in!
@@windrowfarm i dont have 1 yet either....and my hay is in top 5 in Tennessee in quality according to testing at UT....been involved with hay on and off for 30 years...animals hate the woody stems.....but when conditioned it cracks and shatters stems and make it much softer in mouth...and making it more desirable...crab grass is not the most nutritional grass....but it is the softest hay...even a hirse will eat it over any other hay if put up right....a conditioner is not needed to dry hay right...inless a legume with huge stems....a tedder is how you dry hay correctly and evenly....best tool to make quality and nutritional hay...hay i make is fed to my cows....rest sold to horse owners ...i cant make enough hay to meet demand....customers that buy my hay quit sweet feed after a month....dont need anything more when hay is quality...most people dry hay down way too much as well.....check your state university for % to aim for in your region....i make 4x5 rolls and shoot for 15...16%....protien and tdn....more than twice the majority of producer's
@@danielthomason5685 that’s great! Could’t agree more on all of that. A tedder when used right is the true swiss army tool.
Makes sense what you’re saying about course stems. I have a lot of finer grass fields that I leave for later in the rotation for just that reason.
Thanks for sharing!
The conditioner is not worth the extra moving parts more parts more problems especially if you have old equipment.😊 Almost all mower leave to narrow of wind row with grass piled on grass and i want it spread out as thin as possible taking advantage of all the Sun so dont mind tedding after I cut it helps drying and gives greener hay.
Thanks!! Same thoughts 😊. Where abouts do you do hay?
Hay in Central NY when it not raining. Still snowing here today in April just like Canada.
@@sacongo1624 Nice! Extra glad to hear agreement from someone regionally adjacent on the conditioner talk :) And oof, yep, we got about 5" this week in my part of MA. The bottom layer is all sleet. And season prep is on hold again...
we have a disc mower with no conditioner. day 1- cut. day 2- tedder. day 3 rake and bale.
i don't know if a conditioner would change any of that. i really can't see it taking a day out of the cycle.
i guess maybe if we used acid, we could do it in 2 days ... but id really like to avoid that.
and wow! are they expensive! yikes!
Hey there - thanks! Same thoughts here, and appreciate you weighing in. Where abouts do you hay? Also, what mower do you have?
@@windrowfarm northern ohio, mostly timothy, alphapla, clover and kentucky bluegrass mix ( horse hay ) we have a 3 point mounted kuhn 600HD disc cutter. dad and i bought it new about 12 years ago and we are still running it. we keep it stored inside and power wash it off after every season. we LOVE that cutter! we have a couple odd shaped fields and it would be difficult to do with a trail mower, where as the 3 point we raise the cutter bar, spin around, drop the cutter bar and keep cutting. if we had rectangle fields im sure we would have a trail mower, because the 3 point mower is HEAVY. we usually add 400-500 lbs of suitcase weights to the front, to keep the front wheels on the ground.
@@bobocaterpillar3697 nice!! I hear you on the 3-point, they’re handy for small fields! My fields are all pretty small, but I’m learning how to get this Vermeer swung around where I need to, it’s decently maneuverable. I don’t think my tractors could handle the weight of a comparable 3-point though…
I I’ve always never really been a fan of conditioners ether, my bosses Vermeer tm1210 is a absolute monster and with a 150hp tractor I can run laps around my bosses 200hp 16ft swather and I truly believe that’s because it doesn’t have that conditioner robing hp , and I truly don’t notice a difference between what I cut and my boss cuts ( non conditioned vs conditioned ) both get cut the same time and baled the same time so on regular grass and even most broadleafs I’ll still take the non conditioned mower
Just my opinion
Thanks for your input on it, that tracks with what I’m noticing too. What part of the country (/world?) are you in?
@@windrowfarm Dayton Texas, we do majority large square and round bales for the coastal cattle lands of Anahuac where fields are too wet to get equipment in, I work for a large rice farm but we do 700 acres of hay every year too
@@HarrisPropertyMaintenance wow!!
getting hay to dry has more to do with how much sun there is and how low of humidity, I run two discbines one has rubber rollers and one has flails and my brother inlaw runs a drum mower we have both cut on the same day and we bale on the same day, this is with grass hay anyways. leaves shattering on alfalfa and clover is a problem but not with grass hay. If what you have works for you then thats all that matters period.
Thanks! Those are my thoughts exactly, I appreciate your comparison! Definitely agree, only talking about grass hay here. Thanks for weighing in!