It blows my mind that there are people that don’t understand that anytime a woman is trying to get something from a man through her looks or sexuality, that the man is also trying to get sex out of a woman through his money or position. This is a two way interaction, anyone getting their ego bruised one way or another is wrong.
Even Penny feels this is wrong though. In the earlier seasons she took issue with this in three separate episodes: the actress that moved in upstairs, the deaf girl that was milking Raj, and the girl from her hometown that was using Howard.
@@epbrown01 in those episodes she had moments where she felt bad, but then she realize that she is different because she actually cares about them. I think you should re-watch this video because she specifically talks about that.
Exactly they are after the woman sex so what's wrong if she uses her looks or whatever else to get what she wants her as he is doing the same it's an exchange
I feel like that in itself is part of the "cool girl" image. Contrasting a chill, fun female SO. with a baby-crazed husband-hunter. It adds to the male power fantasy, the woman doesn't want kids, because the guy doesn't want kids, often because he doesn't want to give up independence (or more often is just too immature), Then, suddenly, once the guy wants to settle down the female SO does a 180 and is suddenly super stoked to be a mom.
Yeah, it's kinda frustrating when characters who don't want kids are expected to change their minds. Jake and Amy have a way healthier and more supportive relationship than the TBBT couples but I still kinda felt that Penny, Jake and Bernadette deserved better especially because of how Penny's pregnancy plot was handled and Bernadette's career being negatively affected. Also, while Jake and Amy are my fave sitcom ship, it made him giving up his career while the other parents got to have both feel a tad unfair and bittersweet.
I don’t see many people talking about how Penny became successful sales person, but said herself that she wasn’t really happy in that position. And her constant drinking, which was made fun of, but was clearly a sign that she wasn’t all that happy. And it all was just… forgotten at the end? And never addressed? Like, we are all supposed to think that this passionate strong willed character turned back on their dreams only to realise that all she needed all along was.. Leonard? And a job where she sold herself out (as she said herself) and wasn’t fulfilled? What? I felt betrayed by the finale.
@@35yoglenmckenna31 I genuinely thought writers wanted to reflect her dissatisfaction with life, failure of dreams and then new profitable, but unfulfilling career. How it was weighing on her. Damn, she was really trying and hard working all the time. It was very realistic and I liked it. It could’ve been so cool to watch her deal with this dilemma. But then nothing ever came after that. Her story really could have been so much more than what we got.
This is one of the things that bugged me the most about the end of the series! They turn penny into this bitter, miserable, alcoholic and constantly belittle her for ever making an attempt as an actress. What is the message supposed to be there? Don’t follow your dreams you’ll be miserable in the end? And what, the solution is to settle for the dude across the hall who you weren’t really interested in but he wore you down and he finally went out? Such bs.
Luie at leat she could job as salespersom and doing acting on the side an seeing how that pans out openly , that ould nbe way more intresting. And she could try becomoing a nurse?! Which financially woulsnt be much but maybe fulfilling and she has really competency there. Somethig that ..
The conversation about how Penny got pregnant is horrifying, imagine trusting your partner in your drunken state and they (who are not drunk) decide to not use protection when they KNEW you didn't want children and then blame it on you
Ikr, as the video says, it's frustrating how the show kept it vague to avoid coming off as a bit questionable but it's actually a pretty uncomfortable situation as the fact that he was sober and didn't put on protection despite knowing that Penny was drunk and didn't want kids is more than a little yikes (especially as it's not the first time that he's taken advantage of Penny being drunk and slept with her while she was drunk and he wasn't) and leaves poor Penny looking a bit trapped as her 'happy ending' is a baby despite not wanting kids and a job she doesn't like just to give Leonard his dream of marrying the 'pretty neighbour' and being a Dad and having a career he enjoys.
I really hate the scorn heaped on Penny for choosing not to have children. Not every woman automatically wants to be a parent, and it was refreshing to see Penny stick to her morals. But it felt like a bit of a cop-out when the finale revealed her to be pregnant after all, which went against everything that Penny previously stood for.
I remember reading the comments on one video and they were insulting Penny for not wanting to have kids after all the shit Leonard did for her. Just imagine those commenters having kids and trying to teach that 'lesson' to them.
I was angry with the writers because after alll this time and relationship history they chose to have this serious talk after they are married. You talk about these things before. It was framed like this big sudden thing but apparently Leonard should have known or Penny should have been questioning already so I don't get it. It was quite dumb to frame it like this big decision when in fact it already probably happened
@@inkakoutna7155 it’s such an annoying trope in media tbh like idk why they keep doing it. when me and my bf first started dating we both made it clear that neither of us ever wanted children so we knew we could keep going on with the relationship without that ever being an issue down the road. people not discussing that early on is just baffling to me. some people say it’s “too early” to talk about kids but i think it’s really important to discuss it if you’re interested in a long term relationship with someone
Kaley Cuoco deserved so much better from bbt. I recently watched The Flight Attendant and she's so freaking good in it I'm happy she's been getting better projects now
I think her overall career deserved better. She's been in a lot of stuff and apparently works harder than what her roles demand, and takes her line reading very seriously, memorizing everything all the actors say, but yet her roles are usually just her being the hot blonde, permiscuous chick of the show. While she does it well, it seems like she gets the Megan Fox treatment of typecasting based on how hot she is to the casting calls. While Penny is a flawed character, you could tell most of her character's perception in the show came from how the writers see her. Not what she could bring to the table. Especially knowing that Penny's character was much different in the original pilot and concept, but they toned her down. Penny's characters are usually more interesting than the casts shes with.
did she though? I feel like the two expressions in the thumbnail of this video are the only two expression I've even seen her make. maybe I need to see her in something else.
@@bdp8102 have you watched the flight attendant? I really liked her in it. Her character is kind of a dick sometimes but you really feel for her and what she's going through. There's a scene in the second season that made me cry buckets
@@gensai93 well yes and no Bernadette didn’t deserve a baby and crazy marriage with Howard also Bernadette is kinda a bad person because everyone at her office is scared of her and she doesn’t do anything to stop her toxic work behavior even when called out
@workingelephant302 yeah Howard did have some good development it would have been great for him to meet his father and realize he got his disgusting behavior from him and would bring Howard full circle and be a great episode
Idk man, this show always made me uncomfortable, but this video made me realize why. It reminded me of the computer science classes I took in high school where the language and ideas spouted by my male peers were eerily similar to those you talk about
@@mynameisreallycool1 I’m also from an animation degree that was a generalist degree but it was mostly 3D and mostly men. ALL of my lecturers were men. All of them. Every class discussion I was constantly interrupted and spoken over by the overwhelming amount of men in my year so I just stopped talking. Then I got criticised on being silent. When I mentioned this I was told they would look into it and literally nothing happened 🙃 I was warned by female graduates of my degree to not work in the games industry or in the industry at all because we don’t have a union but mainly that the amount of toxic coworkers and misogyny was atrocious and that no one would protect me and if they did they expect ‘something’ in return. I’m actually deathly scared of people and apparently it’s fairly obvious because one graduate mentor I had said to me: “I don’t mean anything nasty by this but I literally took one look at you and knew instantly that the industry would eat you alive. Girl just freelance, you’ll hurt you and you won’t last a year.” So that was a nice wake-up call to get as a second year in university 🥲
@@BriarBeeBenson damn thats crazy wth honeslty its a big reason to why theres not alot of women trying in male dominated industries because of the constant mistreatment
It’s not a coincidence that the characters that get punished are the two most traditionally feminine characters. Penny is punished professionally by not achieving her dreams, and then made pregnant despite not wanting to be. And Raj wants nothing more than to be in love, and he’s never given a happy relationship. The other night my husband and I were watching the show, and he said out of nowhere, “Man the writers really hate women huh?”
100% also to add onto your comment the racial undertones were so infuriating. Raj the only minority in the main cast was considered 'less desirable' than the other nerds. Even Sheldon who was not interested in a relationship got one yet Raj who wanted to be in a happy relationship didn't! It just perpetuates the idea of asian (in this case south asian) men being more feminine, less attractive compared to their whiter counterparts. Which in real life is utter bs.
How does it hate women? Amy and Berni accomplished everything they hoped for and I believe the writers were working on Penny and Raj doing the same but rushed the last episodes cause the actors decided not to come back for a final session
@@manniefresh3425 perhaps they did, but Bernadette and Amy were insufferable to watch. Bernadette has this annoying squeaky voice (I’m not sure if it’s the actress and if it is I’m sorry, but they definitely put her in situations to make it worse) and she’s pedantic and bullies the people around her into doing what she wants them to do. Meanwhile Amy is portrayed as incredibly undesirable, with her frumpy clothes, her narcissistic moments and her constant reminder to everyone that she used to be bullied and needs to make up all the cliché girl stuff. Even if both got their great ending, the show did them dirty for the main part.
@@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339 Bernadette's voice is from her actress's mom. Melissa doesn't actually speak like that. According to her, her mom does though.
People like to point out the sexism in many sitcoms but I honestly think TBBT is the worst sitcom for women. While shows like HIMYM, Friends, Seinfeld, Frasier, and Two and a Half Men (just to name a few) have their fair share of misogyny, at least the characters on those shows are called out for their bad behavior. (And at least those shows were funny). But in TBBT all the men are automatically absolved of any wrongdoing because they are "nerds". Aside from Sheldon, ALL the men on the show are straight-up assholes or creeps. Every joke/premise boils down to the following: Sheldon is weird, Howard is Jewish, Raj is Indian, Leonard is in love with Penny, and Penny is a slut. Everyone, including Bernadette and Amy, is so elitist about their degrees/achievements, and Penny is always made to look like an idiot. Yes, friends tease each other, but they are constantly condescending.
@Freja Lindberg I honestly find Ted to be so much worse than Barney. The player trope that Barney is written as is one we can easily recognize and avoid in real life if we don't want to get involved with it. And Barney committed wholeheartedly twice when there WAS someone he was serious about. He accepted them as they were. Meanwhile the Teds of the world are insidious and everywhere. It never feels like his partners are actually partners, just women there to fill the role in his fantasy. It's dishonest and gross. And having a guy like that as an ex, I can tell you from experience it's damaging as hell on multiple levels. The mindsets of the two is the most obvious in their relationships with Robin: Barney wants her exactly how she is and respects her boundaries and desires while Ted ALWAYS superimposed his goals onto her.
I don't wanna talk about the misogenic behaiviour, because I just kinda consume the show as a light joke and yes, am a man soo... not as sensitive to this matter, which means I did not always see it, get it, understand the point of view... and so on. But when it comes to the "elitism" and the proudness on achievemets, I get it. I see it at the university all the time. I am not saying it is ok, but it is very common at my faculty. The sort of people that get to this level of education is kinda special, but both ways. I am always saying that the brain, same as all other parts of a human beeing has its limits. When you have genius level inteligence in Science, you most probably are not as good at sports, athletics and most of all at social interactions. Because of that most of the Ph.Ds got bullied at lower levels of school system, which is mentioned on the show many times. Because of that, their social ranking is close to zero and that lead to deprivations at youth. Other deprivations these geniuses get from their parents/teachers/themselves, so when these people grown up, you have group of elite level geniuses with messed up personality. Most of them are really low on their selfesteem, which they compensate with their level of education and achievements, which is really the only thing that they have/they have been told to matter. So when a person with lower level of inteligence, which also meen with higher level of social skill, comes to this group, they look at this person by their standarts, at least at first. That means that the first thing visible to them is the education. When we reverse it, if this genius gets to the group of let's say "normal people", they will see him as awkward, wierd and so on, because they see the social skill first. This series is about the elite geniuses male or female, which get this normal, but much better socialy skilled person in their ranks. You can see, that they get to her over time, that most of them kinda envy her social skills, which by the way leads to many jokes that I did not get were seen as over the top, but you can not expect these people to change their scale of values, which they have for ever. I have been on both sides. When I am with my football team (someone in US thinks that it should be called soccer, which is false). I am constantly mocked with my talking about things my peers do no understand, and also over my not good foot technique. They are my friends, but they see my diferences. Other thing is when I get somewhere with other history students and someone who doesn't walk thru the same pain as us comes with us. He/she/it would not understand most of the things we talk about, which is completely normal, but that person would be somehow overlooked. In just this particular case. So my point is, the braging about theit Ph.Ds is kinda all they could have. I am sorry about the lenght of the comment, I am kinda in the middle of studiing for my Bachelor exam and I needed a little of procrastination. I am also sorry if something with my english is bad, I am not native speaker. Have a nice day.
I was so thrown off with how Bernadette berated Penny for not wanting kids when she herself didn’t want any either. It’s like the writers were trying to put this idea about women who say that they don’t want children, but actually do. If women don’t want children they don’t want children!
in the world of the big bang theory, happiness can only be achieved by marriage and kids. its ironic that a show with characters outside the social norm end up confining to the social norm.
I thought it was pretty obvious in that episode that Bernadette was in the wrong, especially showing how she's annoyed and frustrated being a mother a looot.
you'd be surprised how many women want you other women to have kids just because they have kids. It's a " I had go through this so you need to too" thought process
It's so gross how perverted Howard was and was even rewarded for. He should've never been coddled by the show for his racist remarks and inappropriate behavior/sexual harrassment.
Ikr, it's so messed up that she was made to feel bad for and comfort Howard when he'd been harassing her and making her uncomfortable with pervy remarks, it's so gross that she has to apologise and that Leonard, who's supposedly in love with her and would 'do anything' for her (but just wanted her for her looks and to sleep with her), is the one who tells her she should because he cares more about the robot competition than Penny being harassed. The whole treatment of Penny is so rooted in sexism as is the fan reaction to her and she was often treated appallingly by the writers and male leads and was shamed/judged for everything she did and even her so-called 'satisfying' moments were either unsatisfying and don't include a win for her and/or involve her doing everything for the men who insult and/or sexualise her and make her feel she 'owes' them. Howard's racism with how he treats Raj is awful too and his behaviour towards women is so predatory at certain points that it's illegal.
They did it to Bernadette too. She said multiple times that she wanted a "stay at home dad" because she refused to give up her career for kids. Then, while ACTIVELY describing to Penny how fucking awful having kids is, she SHAMES her for not wanting some herself. What the fuck.
Yeah I didn't get that bc it seemed like everything Bernadette hated about her percieved ideas of motherhood came into fruition so it was hard to see her actually enjoying it. Wasn't she even sad when she got pregnant the 2nd time?! Also I thought it was funny that Raj became their nanny when I thought her husband was supposed to be a stay at home dad like the original plan was.
@@Moonlight_Shad0w No I wouldn't call that irony. Irony would have been if she had a stay at home dad and then hated it and volunteered to switch places. What happened in the show was more of lies, manipulation and failing to hold up the original agreement.
@@jclyntoledoUm, they never showed any agreement for Howard to just be a stay at home Dad. In one of the episodes, it showed Howard and Bernie talking about the possibility of one of them staying home full time and Howard said he thought it should be hm. But then Bernadette said no and basically told him it should be her choice (i.e if she wanted to be the stay at home parent, she should get to). In the end, neither stayed home full time (apart from Bernie’s maternity leave period, which I dont think was all that long) and both still kept their jobs.
Seeing the comments on the unaired pilot shows why they changed her to be so "forgiving". The "Penny" in the pilot actually sticks up for herself and is a flawed person, but most people only see an "evil woman" rather than one trying to survive in LA.
I wish we could have seen that version of the show. It seemed like the female characters of the show just never got their own justification to disagree with anything, or about themselves from the perceptions of the male characters thrown upon them.
@Guatalmlanfoodlover2019 yeah but people are allowed to abort potential children if they don't want any, we shouldn't have to keep children just because
Kaley Cuoco is an avid equestrian and I am too and the whole “Penny is muscular and masculine” hits close to home. I’m not one of those tall, willowy long legged riders in breeches and tall boots (and I have difficulty finding English boots that fit me since my legs are short. Men joke about wanting women who ride since we do tend to have nice butts and legs, but then men realize that they come second to horses and feel threatened by women who aren’t intimidated by a 1200 lb animal and drive a bigger rig than they do. I’ve even been told that dating me is “like dating a dude.” I’ve noticed that “tomboys” in media tend to still conform to a male ideal being slender, yet curvy, wearing loose hair despite its impracticality, makeup and a sexier version of the outfit than is practical. Mikaela in Transformers is a gear head and instead of working on cars in jeans and an old shirt, has a sheen of sweat in a tank top and short shorts while sexily bending over a vehicle
Kaley is a sagittarius so all of this adds up astrologically (centaur imagery, ruling the hips, strong physique, traditionally “masculine” qualities) do you know if you have any sag in your chart?
I didn't know she was an equestrian but that makes sense, Kaley really doesn't seem intimidated by most things and just seemed very relaxed in every interview I've seen her in.
The fact that Bernadette was faced with the whole have the kid or break things up with your partner was so annoying to me. Both of them had their whole life ahead of themselves so she could have just explain that she wanted to have kids later. The fact that the pregnancy is portrayed so often as a you need to go through with it just because it's so tiring.
Despite being the only character that didnt have an awful relationship dynamic, ended up just kind of settling for nothing only to just support Howards goals. Even in the episode where it made her miserable, yet Howard was still allowed to pursue his with no problem and she supported him. There just always seemed to be this tone where she and Penny never had a choice not to or even say no for the moment.
Yeah, which episode were you referring to specifically, sorry? Yeah, it's kind of unfair and a shame that Bernadette ended up with not one but two kids so close together when she didn't even want kids and ended up feeling conflicted about going to work and then having projects taken from her and not having that much support or help from Howard (it's annoying that people act like she was wrong or selfish in the playhouse ep when she had a lot to deal with and Howard was doing just fine chilling in the hot tub and hadn't sacrificed his job or anything) as he didn't do anything round the house but he's the one that acted freaked out even though he wanted kids and he didn't really have to care for them that much or sacrifice anything as he got to still have his job, the band and cool opportunities like the planetarium and Will Wheaton show and was kinda selfish and ungrateful in the motorbike ep a she implied his family weren't enough for him.
@@heatherstephenson3559 I don't know the episode exactly but there is the one where Howard goes into space to repair the space station again and she tells him that it made him sick and he hated it. It shown that she card for him but supported him anyway pursuing it again while she was left at home with their kids. The there is also that episode where Bernedette cries about Raj being abetter mother than her, or when she had to decide if she wanted to go back to work or be a mother for thekids, while Howard could do whatever he wanted. I know those are all real things women think about but, it seemed like as soon as she got married, she immediately had two kids and as the only one deciding these things she had to compromise for. As a mother. Ironically it gave Penny a better position to not have kids, because when Beredette had 2 kids, she pretty much couldn't do anything but just support Howards aspirations. We never even know what hers are because of how fast they just made her a mother because they never gave her any episodes where he would support something she wanted to do outside of being a mother, even when prior to it she was concerned by it even while she was also making more than him. Its an even greater case for Penny to not have kids, because she wouldn't want to do that nor could afford it. I just feel like it was one of those shows that, this idea really damaged the characters and themes when they forced these relationships and traditionalism on them at the last minute.
Yeah, I kinda get what you mean as while Howard had some moments with the kids, he never really took care of them that much or had to do much with/for them and got everyone else to do everything (like when Bernie was about to have Halley and with Halley's first birthday party). He also didn't have to make sacrifices and got to keep his job and opportunities and interests and while it's maybe realistic that typically Dads sacrifice less and aren't guilted whatever they do like many mothers are/have been but it's frustrating that he's the one who wanted kids and Bernie ended up having two despite not wanting kids and the fact that some people call Howard a great Dad just shows how low the bar is for Dads.
and the jokes at cuoco's expense only got worse when she got that pixie haircut around the last seasons. it was unbearable, she looked amazing but ”noo!! dumb sitcoms can't have short hair women!!” i couldn't stand it. hopefully someday we get a reboot where the male characters are forced to self reflect about their misogyny bc the concept itself was charming
I would like a reboot where they did change some stuff, especally on how Penny is treated and really reconstruct the just awful relatonship paths most of the characters were on. I couldnt stand how forced Penny and Leonard were as a pairing despite it really not working in any natural way. Or the over adherence to conventional social expectations of either nerds or relationship expectations, and why they could never differ realistically. Like Penny just having guy friends, and not just being everyone's conquest goal, her not having children being accepted, her not being just seen as dumb or a loser. etc.
Very good essay. As a kid who watched this show because I was a nerdy girl who wanted to go into STEM, I didn’t recognize a lot of the misogyny underlying a lot of this shows humor
The STEM fields are so filled with misogyny. That's why I didn't bother to continue working in tech after the military. Sources: I have a cousin (not much older than me, four year older to be exact, dad's side) who holds a relatively high position at the NRC. Oh boy... she's 38, but because of our ethnicity (Puerto Rican), she looks much younger (she barely looks 27) and has a hard time being taken seriously (and this lady has an MS in Chem eng from U. MD). Second, I have *ANOTHER* cousin (mother's side) who's ten years *younger* who graduated from the Va Tech last year. Mech engineering, btw. Also having a hard time being taken seriously for the same reason: she looks *A LOT* like Aubrey Plaza, but she's a bit more extroverted and is pansexual. Yet people expect her to be all _weird_ and crap. This lady entered VT on a *BASKETBALL* scholarship first and foremost, since my uncle and godmother live and breath NBA (despite he was raised by a dairy rancher, is a Chem engineer also dabbled in basketball because his other brother played basketball on a semi-pro basis back in PR). Sorry for the tangent.
Of course you didn't.. it's because you hadn't yet been trained to see it via nit picking and injecting ideological bias into your head. Our brain is designed to see patterns but also our brains require us to draw upon previous knowledge to construct our perceptions of reality. If you prime someone to see a thing, they will see it. Hell you can even force this sort of distortion via peer pressure as evidenced by the line experiment where subjects are shown 2 lines of differing lengths and asked to state weather or not the lines are the same or not. If you have a buncha people before you state the uneven lines are the same, only those who are low in agreeableness will "see" different lines, the others will either go along with the group or be unable to see the difference due to the priming effect of the group. The way critical theory is done is by posing leading questions in order to get someone to come to the realization that it is so. Literally, this is what the guys who developed critical theory stated. It's not a critical theory unless you already have a conclusion in mind that will direct inquiry.
It’s interesting because so many aspects of penny are well written but then simply fall back onto tired tropes. I wonder if show ever had any female writers give their actual input on the character.
I really wondered the same thing. An odd choice to allow her character to be so sympathetic. I'd expect with such obvious misogyny on display, that she would be written with some villainous qualities to justify the shit she is constantly given and her poor lot in life. But not really, she is kind of a great character despite the completely unselfaware mess the rest of the show is
@@klaratehcoolcat it's because misoginy doesn't need a justification, you can be the coolest most perfect girl of all time, and it will be never enough to stop misoginy.
@@akasakikawasaki1890 i think youre correct. but my point was, i think it's awfully generous to say the writers *intended* that message. When most of the other messages they focus on driving home are, like, "women have it too easy" and "women take advantage of men! It's sexism!"
Yah i mean she still ends really competent and , she should be allowed to be at leat agnowledged with sucess or respect for being that competent and resourceful and dealing with , like she should be a really strong multilayered female character that regardless is feminine. Burt isnt treated as such. And if that wasnt intnded the actess deserves even more credit.
Tbh the fact she was named Penny always reminded me of Penny from Dr. Horrible's Singalong Blog, and the way both of the Pennys were treated by the nerdy guys 'in love with them' was always ranging from creepy to toxic
The fact that she was never even given a last name in the show until she married Leonard. And I'm Dr. Horrible there wasn't a last name for Penny either.
the reason why the guys get away of acknowledge they awful behavior is because they aren't perceived as "a real threat" (they not violent or emotionally unstable), this make people believe they can't be @busive toward others; when the reality is that this kind of guys are emotional manipulators, maybe even emotional @busers, and trie to masks it as concern, good actions or jokes; and the thing is: they genuinely think they are the good guys based on doing the bare minimum the majority of time, and all the micro aggression are others people being too sensitive. The authors did wrong making Penny apologized to them, she could regretted the way she said but never what she said.
This is true and they are some of the worst ever wolves in sheep's clothing. I know because when I was in high school those were the types I got to know and dated. They are sneaky and slick with it then pretend they would never have done whatever they did because they are such nice guys
@@Introvertsan I dated 1 like this too, snick little devil, always played be a angel in front of others, saying it was a joke, never admitted his wrongs. Nobody understood when I break up, but I found a better partner and I'm happier than ever.
The fact that she was so important to the plot yet didn't even have a last name was one of the first things that bothered me about the show, but her overall treatment is appalling to say the least , Kaley Cuoco deserved way better
there's this bittersweet irony with penny that the women on tbbt apparently neither care nor really understand comic books* but then kayley cuoco goes on and produces one of the best comic book series currently on tv. harley quinn animaged series you'll always be famous (*i understand there's a whole episode where the women pick apart thor and such but still, i think you get what i mean)
bruh I knew the writers had a weird view on women when they had that episode where penny had to apologise to howard after getting angry at him harassing her
I dislike the show. It seems to degrade everyone involved. And let's be honest just cause they don't say it doesn't mean they aren't making the entire joke with Sheldon that he has a neurological condition. It seems like it punches down on women, nerds and the neurodivergent to make jokes for straight neurotypical white dudes.
Oh yeah exactly. For me they make Sheldon autistic codex but then when ask if he was autistic, they say "no he was not" so they can continue to make jokes about his autistic traits. Same when asked if he was asexual, they say no and then continue to make jokes about his lack of interest in sex and the weirdest if, even in his relationship with Amy, sex still looks like something he only does for her on special occasions, so they don't even use their relationships to say "see he is not asexual" and continue to make jokes targeting people who are not interested in sex.
@@FacebookQueen are you asking when it got overturned? Also one state is thinking about making it legal to shoot someone if you find out if they just had an abortion.
@@FacebookQueen oh. It got overturned so in some states you'll go to jail if you get an abortion. Recently a 10 year old girl was raped and she had to go out of state for one.
The whole kids conversation with Bernadette and then the whole pregnancy ending is really fucked up and weird. It makes me surprised Bernadette and the fact that Leonard gets mad at her for being pregnant. It's also so gross and weird how she is constantly made to apologize. It's definitely like the show wanted to make the perfect woman for nerdy guys who identify with the main characters, conventionally hot, not smarter than them, one of the guys, but always in "her place," never holding men around her accountable for anything.
This video couples really well with the Pop Culture Detective's video "Adorkable Misogyny," which focuses much more on the men's actions and attitudes toward women than from Penny's perspective specifically. th-cam.com/video/X3-hOigoxHs/w-d-xo.html
I like them as friends, but yeah they are great, like he really i think apreciates her skill to deal with him , like she would be a great nure honestly, she is stroong, hands on and has the peoples skills. And its probably hr most healthy relationship. Dunno her and raj could have been interesting.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. When the show started getting him with Amy, I was like, "huh, who dis b? Keep at it with Penny/Sheldon!" >:o
@@TheSuperkeks888 you know, just because I like a ship doesn’t mean I don’t think men and women can de friends. It’s interested how this type of comments frequently occur when I ship someone with an autistic character.
@@FouEliane this has nothing to do with Sheldon being autistic or not autistic. I don't know about the other comments of yours but maybe the chemistry isn't there? Ever thought about that? I've seen autistic male characters and they had good chemistry with female characters... Don't make this about something else
I HATE it in us shows when a character falls pregnant and it's as if she HAD to have the baby. Abortion isn't brought right away at all or like a "big thing" to do when it's NOT. It's not a bad thing to take a pill or have a procedure when the feotus is barely formed to CHOOSE if you want a kid and when. Having a kid when you can't because you're not financially stable, too young, not in a good relationship etc does no good for anyone. Neither does having a kid when you don't really want it. Why not choose the ideal solution when you can and it's that easy ? Having a kid if and when you want it and are ready so they feel loved and are ideally taken care of ?
Crazy Ex Girlfriend has a married character who has an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant because her career is taking off, and her husband supports her decision.
It wouldn't even be a fetus, they fall into that name only towards the end of the first trimester. Literally just a clump of cells. My canon is that Penny aborted the fucked, left Leonard and became a director.
BBT really had a lot of problems. But it was a show you could turn your brain off for. I think that's why it stayed so long, most people just glossed over all the many flaws
I think the flaw that finally made me look closer at the show was (along with a grwoing hatred of Sheldon) the treatment of Raj. Everyone finally got paired up except for Raj and the writers seemed to think it was funny to code him as being gay. The stereotpye of hte effiminate Asian man didnt sit well with me.
@@lkeke35 especially after they made him get back with Anu and not stay together because of external reasons. Also the not being able to talk to woman thing. Earlier on the show they found out it's psychological and I thought that he would solve the problem soon after the episode. But no seasons had to pass. Ridiculous
I saw it when i was a kid so i didn't understand that a lot of the stuff happening was creepy. I felt very sad a lot of the time watching it, but didn't know why and it eventually became so unpleasant that i stopped altogether
True. I watched BBT way late, like near the end of the series, by accident. It was just a nice place to leave the tv on as white noise as I did other stuff or turned my brain off the constant stress. To this day I can leave the tv on while it passes bc it still works as a nice white noise to do house chores, though I can't be bothered to watch the later seasons. Can say I never bothered to analyze the plot at all.
Between this and other essays I've seen about the writer's treatment of the male characters, specifically with respect to their nerd qualities, I can only conclude that the writers hated all of the characters in different and specific ways, and that their main objective, implicitly or explicitly, was to just sh*t on them in every way they could. The pregnancy at the end of the show is just the cherry on top of a 12 season humiliation cake.
Correct. The writting style of this show was alway to make the joke at the character's expense. It was very much punch down humor on everyone (no one was immune) and that was always the joke... and it lasted for 12 years, with some of the most consistently high ratings ever for a TV sitcom... so what does that say about our society...
Chuck Lorre’s (idk how his name is spelled) has a very misogynistic way of writing both male and female characters. Women are objectified by their looks and seem as a sort of burden for the male lead. I really just don’t like his writing overall.
And yet the guy has had 2 or 3 highly successful series. I'm not disagreeing with your statement about his writing, I also think he's got a lot of narcisistic tendencies, but apparently it's "what the people want" because they keep watching hiis shows. Not sure what that says about society as a whole.
@@olandir Yeah, I remember reading how awful the show has gotten because Howard wasnt as misogynistic anymore. Like, "Its unrealistic for Howard to point out sexism!" Or how Howard isnt funny anymore. Even tho its quite normal for someone to become less sexist when they fall and love and/or get a daughter/son.
TBBT was sold as "finally, a show for nerds like you" but it actually was "Friendzone: the show (with pop culture references)". Now that I think about it, the moment I realized how awful the idea of the friendzone is, I stopped watching this show. I also didn't like how we were meant to laugh to the comic store guy's depression.
I honestly felt absolutely awful for Stuart! He’s a fantastic artist, empathetic and owns his own business yet is completely alone due to having physical oddities, being socially awkward and also picking bad habits from his friends who treat him worse than a stray cat. It’s honestly awful. He barely eats, he’s sick and can’t afford to go to the doctor and constantly does things for his ‘friends’ only for them to treat him like less than garbage. The only character who treated him with a shred of human decency was Raj and I was so mad that Stuart and Raj just didn’t end up together since Stuart was a MUCH better friend than Howard ever was to Raj. But nooo! God forbid a sitcom have a gay couple ever and have it not be either lesbians where they’re just fetish eye candy for straight men and one is the ‘man’ and the other is the ‘woman’. Or have it just be an infinite supply of disgusting homophobic jokes. But even the TBBT couldn’t do that or else they would lose some of their white cishet homophobic male audience 🙄
The whole thing about Penny being shamed for not being able to get by financially is also a nice intersection with the problem of capitalism and workers' rights issues imo. It shows again that you can hardly discuss sexism and patriarchy properly without at some point also addressing the economic question.
Doesn't Penny want to be an actor? The arts are hardly a guaranteed paycheck. That's not the patriarchy that's just supply and demand. There are many more actors than high paying acting jobs. It's not like she has a Wharton MBA and a company passed her over for the owner's cousin.
What I hate about Penny and Leonard is the power dynamic. He is a great caltech physicist and she is still struggling. And the constant need to diminish Penny's success or her upbringing. How can he disrespect her so much even he got a a successful mother.
I looked up Penny's last name to see how it was subtly implied, and as it turns out it's worse than them just forgetting to give her a name- they actively wanted her not to have one. According to the producers of the show they shot around revealing her maiden name during her wedding and the last names she was assigned were just set dressing to fill out a prop. They thought it would be cuter if she didn't have a last name until she took Leonard's. It makes her character seem just so depressing.
the pregnancy plot line is horrible if my partner violated our trust, and my body, and disrespected me like that as a person let alone there wife i would be so devastated and heartbroken the writers could have wrote that he was drunk too but they chose to put that he decided to go against their boundaries for his sake and that's truly awful
Sheldon and Amy was the healthiest relationship in that show. The other male leads were all man-children who saw sex as the main goal of the relationships, and the female leads regularly belittled and body-shamed their partners in public. Quite frankly, they may all have gotten the partners they deserved.
I disagree. I thought Bernie and Howard actually felt like a real couple, because Howard stopped his sexual conquests after got with Bernedette. They seemed like the only two characers who actually liked each other with full awareness of their habits. They both make efforts to comfort each other and they actually seem like they come to agreements together, they both enjoy their sex lives and However tries to show he's suportive despite his stress over his mother and his drawsto comedy. They we never seemed perfect or couple-sues but were earnest, like Homer and Marge Simpson. They were opposite of how awful Leonard and Penny were together. Amy and Sheldon on the other hand, to me was the 2nd most unhealthy. Amy just semed like she wanted something from Sheldon he wasn't realistically interested in and they got mocked for it all the time. She wanted sex more than he did a lot of the time but she was always let down and frustrated with him a lot in the show for the way he treated her outside of her friendship with him. Their relationship as it was always seemed like she was just babysitting him due to the higher standard dating him put on him. Though they do acknowledge what she wants is difficult for him, it just seemed like there wasnt much compromise to make her happy as a partner, even though she supported him as a friend. It was one of those relationshiships that did not have to happen. Sheldon was just too neuralogically different for her. He could live without romance and intimacy, becaue he is happier with his hobbies, but she wanted it due to how socially repressed she was. Those were just two different things that were a false similarity. She was always miserable with him. She had more chemistry with Leonard on both ends than she did with Sheldon and he did with Penny. They should have been together if they had to.
@Luke Jameson Penny and Leonard always seemed forced on the show and between each other. Leonard always seemed to just have better chemistry with other women like Raj's sister and even Amy. Both of them just seemed like they thought they had to be together after it didn't work, instead of it just being accepted that they weren't comparable but were better friends.
Nah, Amy and Sheldon had the exact same problem the other couples had, in that any wanted more out of Sheldon that what Sheldon could give and kept forcing and pressuring him to give her the things she wanted
Honestly, even if its more like she sometimes acts as caretaker, her and sheldon have a way better relationship, as friends. He actually respects her. I think, not seen all show.
Re watching the show made me realize of a lot of issues the show dismisses and this video gives a great insight on Penny's character and the "pretty girl" trope. But one of the things I realized that also gets downplayed/dismissed or just "fixed" quickly are the traumas the characters carry. Like how Amy's mom was (at worst) emotionally manipulative towards her, and at best, seems to have shut Amy off a bit from things. How Bernadette had to take care of her siblings and she hated it, Howard having an overbearing mother and a missing father, Raj's whole thing with not being able to speak to women unless he had a drink, Sheldon growing up being different from others, and I think the most noticeable one, Leonard basically growing up as an experiment for her mother, which impacted me the most because in that last season, he literally only forgives her because he knows she won't change and doesn't want to keep thinking she will. This show dismisses so many issues its kind of infuriating
Altough the Leonard arc was realistic. Healing means chosing how to deal with a problem and how to find inner peace. He cant change his childhood, but he can accept it and work through it, clean up the damage. This also means acceping your child-parent relationship. Forgiveness is pretty hard, so is apologizing. I thought it was nice to see how Leonard stood up for himself for once and confronted his mother, and his mother reflecting. explaining and apologizing, even tho we met her as a selfish, unemotional, never-in-the-wrong mother. Something I wish for my situation, altough I know this will never happen.
thank you for talking about this. i always felt so disgusted with the way they treated penny and i just remember how i kept saying "she deserves so much better" when these kind of stuff happened
I have a family member who LOVED the "Big Bang Theory" when it aired. I was having a convo with them one day and even they had something to say about how problematic the show was. That says something to me.
I remember watching this show as a young teen and hating how "the boys" treated Penny. That not only did they have no self reflection but the group as a whole was clearly supporting shaming their new friend who was uncomfortable with the situations they were put in. It also made me nervous as a 14 year old that male friends expected me to "put out" for any favour by normalising that mentality.
I completely disagree with Penny and Leonard being a good relationship. I didn't think they were a good fit. A lot of their relationship was just built on just Leonard kind of forcing himself to like her because she was the girl next door, even though he's had better relationships outside of Penny. They broke up because of just the friction they had but Penny had no other options other than Leonard because she was always dating tall, often identical jerkish jocks. Even though Leonard was a very whiny, insecure, jealous, guy who always had expectations from her that he rarely accepts if she doesn't want to do them, she ended up giving in to him because she had no other picks. In the show, no other guys to compare Leonard to that wasn't inherently worse. It seemed like her reason to be with him was just her self-deprication.
I kinda liked Zac. He was protrayed to be dumb, but he actually seemed very kind. Maybe it was just the actor who played him, but he was never mean to anyone he came in contact with, and was very genuine. He was kind of like the anti-Sheldon.
Its hard not to get a lot of 2007 vibes from how Hollywood, Interviewers and Directors viewed Megan Fox to how the show views Penny. After this you can definitely tell the perspective the show was written in. Calling the writing pretty sexist isnt just a reaction but pretty legitmate in the logic of where the comedy comes from at Penny's expense. Its really not that much different from 2 and a Half men. Now that I look back on that particular aspect. Its only surprising that Penny's character herself isn't written into the stereotypes she is mocked for but does justify herself in them, but the comedy of the show makes her always wrong for her positions or in what they think she can ge away with, even though she never actually shows herself doing it. Like getting by on her looks or free food. If she could, then why would she worry about her expenses that they know about? Or that her sex life is referenced as something inherently damaging of her, even though they just assume who she is from it. Like as if her casually dating men short term is somehow more contemptable than themselves who none of them have actually had any relatonships and struggle with women all the time in the show? Even though its not as if Penny ever brags about her sexual escapades. Its just assumed, even when she tries to lay out a serious thing about herself to them.
Finding your channel has been so cathartic for me. You are verbalizing feelings I’ve had for decades but could never find the words to explain. Thank you.
Another thoughtful and very interesting video! Loved this one so much since I grew up watching the show and Penny was always my favourite, but abandoned it in the third of the show since I couldn't get past or ignore any longer the mysoginy sorrounding her, the plot always seemed to punish her and its awesome to look back through the video to all those elements that always seemed a little off but I was too young to properly identify why. Great work!
I was very young when I started watching BBT and didn't notice many of its flaws that stop me from enjoying it as much now. I always really liked Penny and identified with her (mostly because I was the only girl in my Physics class and friend group in college, finding myself in similar situations) . Her character had so much depth and potential that could have been explored better by a more respectful writer. I honestly only rewatch bbt episodes for penny 😂
I am glad you did this video. You pointed out what I saw in only 2 or half watched episodes but didn't know why I just didn't like it. . Lol I am one of the few people who didn't watch the show. I just couldn't place why it always made me uncomfortable. But now I know, so Thank you
I got frustrated with BBT and stopped watching purely because of Penny. That they stuck her at a restaurant job for that long is frustrating, as it puts her obviously at a disadvantage in comparison. The comparison is really what got to me.
Pennys career glow up was the one genuine thing that made me happy. Also how sheldon sees penny as a loving mother-like figure, unlike his siblings who were mostly unnecessarily mean to him
If I had to constantly portray all of this at the expense at my and the character's image, I, too,would be like Cuoco and ask them to REALLY pay up for the privilege.
Thank you so much for making this video, I can’t tell you how relieved I am to see that someone else feels the same way as the sexism in the show and how that same kind of misogyny is seen in how people talk about and villainize Penny and Bernadette is so disheartening and frustrating and it's upsetting to see people constantly saying how ‘mean’ and ‘rude’ Penny is and that she ‘belittles’ Leonard and ‘takes advantage’ of him and the guys which is so backwards as, to me, anyway, the way the men treat her is often disgusting and so disrespectful as Sheldon continually insults her intelligence and everything about her and tries to literally ‘train’ her despite her being so caring and patient with him, Raj objectifies her and is so rude even when she’s the only one supporting him and Howard sexually harasses her and gets an apology from her?! It’s also so true how unfairly she’s treated and the position she’s in as she’s shamed, judged and/or guilted for everything she does and made to feel that she 'owes' them (she's somehow shamed for putting out and for not putting out?!) and isn’t supported despite being a supportive, kind person and even when they ‘do things for her’, it’s never just to be nice but to get her to sleep with them as Leonard makes super clear in S5 after their break up.
To me, the fact that they gave her a baby at the end was the worst end to her arc!!! She ended up doing what she didn't want to because she was too stupid to use properly birth control or she wanted to please Lenard. I can't decide which one is worse but, the outcome goes against her wishes.
Idk how else to put it but your videos make me really happy. Like as long as these discussions are happening, maybe the world isn't as bad as it feels.
I remember watching this show when it aired and it reflecting my own internalized misogyny so I thought Penny was "a bad person" as it was clearly shown in the show you were meant to view her that way (I don't miss the 00's mindsets one bit). But I never finished watching all the series, you've displayed all the issues really well here (as you always do) and it's soo disgusting seeing how she was repeatedly punished like this by not only Lorre but the writers and perpetuated mindsets that deeply affected the teens growing up with shows like this. The way the body shaming happens to Penny, too? Wtf. And the forced pregnancy? Ugggghhhh
Nah, I dont think we were meant to view Penny as a bad person. Otherwise, she would have been less funny, less relatable, portrayed as undesirable, boring, etc. I personally liked her realistic portray of having traditional male and female qualities/skills/interests, as these stereotypes still persist very strongly in American society. Also how she changed from being an impulse shopper and being bad at handling her money, to a resposible woman who wants to pay her debt by staying in a job she doesnt love (the last part isnt that great, but its relatable which makes her relatable to the viewer as well)
No one is more misogynist (or racist for that matter) than Hollywood. It’s why I’m constantly perplexed that we take our talking points about these issues from them. They are point blank the worst possible community to look to for advice on being better at such issues.
it's true, but hollywood greatly impacts the media people consume and the behaviours and ideology people embody because it's no secret people mimic fictional realties and stories depicted by the media so it's understandable that it would be used to shine light on common issues as they tend to feed into them. I'm not sure if what i said made sense its 2 am where i am but i hope it did.
@@maddyb7899 Sure. It just so often gets told the other way around--like it's the common people who are the most misogynist and racist and Hollywood is reflecting society. No. Hollywood is so much more entrenched and they are the ones largely spreading disease and then asking common people to take responsibility and live in less trusting society as a result.
Honestly you are on to something there. I there is a lot of hollow performative activism stuff in shows and movies. I think this is what some people lable as «too woke», not understanding how some conservatives use that term. Like they pick up on the fact that something isnt right, but are unable to verbalize precisely what it is. It kinda muddies the discourse unfortunately, as I think a lot of people would agree if we all understood what we are each trying to say to each other. Anyway this also means that Hollywood can get away with their performative activism by blaiming their audience for not being woke enough. It’s a mess. Point is Hollywood gets away with pretending they arent racist and sexist a lot because we atre too buisy fighting each other.
@@MissCaraMint Oh exactly! Which is why I think the single greatest message out there right now is that our enemy is NOT our neighbor or another middle class/lower class stiff who has far more in common with us than any celebrity or politician. No matter what other people think, they have a reason they came to it and we can gain so much more ground by understand why and how and being on the same team. Well, that and that all elections should be ranked choice voting:D
Big Bang and HIMYM have aged so badly. Big Bang 100% relied on gross punch down comedy. HIMYM is bad for it too but even worse the dad is literally telling sex stories to his teenage children...including never ending stories about how their uncle Barney is a predator. But the weed is a "sandwich" and he changes the word shit....
I had stopped watching this show pretty early on for these exact reasons. I didn't like how Penny was treated as being less than the guys because she wasn't into science and Leonard's obsession with Penny always seemed creepy. I hadn't picked up on the fact that the guys were all older than Penny, I thought they were around the same age give or take a few years.
Well, I think the show "Young Sheldon" gave Sheldon's date of birth as Feb. 26, 1980, making him about 6 to 8 years older than Penny. Probably Leonard's around the same age.
Always love your commentary! I adored this show the year it came out but as I entered high school it just felt icky to me. I wasn’t able to put my finger on it at the time so I appreciate someone who clearly does have some fondness for these characters giving an analysis of its shortcomings without outright hating on it.
This is the same Chuck Lorre who created Two and Half Men, it’s a partner show for The Big Bang Theory and equally repugnant and threads the same misogynistic and women shaming. The cool girl description sounds like a pick me. I used to work with right wing religious pick me types who love this show, and desperate to marry I now see why.
Wow.👏🏽👏🏽 I never thought of how the focus is always on Penny using her looks to make ends meet and not on the guy with money and has the power in the situation. He is the one that consents to this and unlike Penny is not in a dangerous situation where he is dependent on someone liking him for his looks, in order to survive.
I mean as far as her physical masculinity being “called out” by the guys…it’s more like she’s masculine in the same way a Marvel or DC heroine is. That’s why she’s still seen as hot. (Like comic book Wonder Woman) We’ve all seen how much bigger (not overweight) or masculine a woman can look and she ain’t that. It’s a slight masculinity that they still find attractive especially given her other physical attributes.
As a former “Nice Guy,” I… am so uncomfortable with how common the “nice guy” trope is in media. “You say you want a nice guy, what about me? I’m a nice guy” “Ohh let me do all these super nice things for her, so she’ll realize I’m a great guy” Like- no….. not only is nobody entitled to another human being, but… romance can’t… be forced. You can’t force it just because it “makes sense” to others. It has to feel right between everybody in the relationship In fact, off topic (ish), but I’m tired of forced romances in general. We need more platonic friendships in shows and movies. We need more “guy and girl genuinely help each other as friends, and nobody expects them to date”
Ahh… interesting, I made this comment when I was only a few minutes in, but around 10:30, the narrator comments that their relationship does not seem forced 🤔 Been so long since I’ve watched the show, maybe I’m misremembering, but idk 🤷♂️
Also… as a man who actively has zero interest in having children…. I’m deeply offended how often women are expected to have children, in real life and in TV
@@slowrunn3r88 Penny and Leonard's relationship is a atter of opinion and interpretation I guess. But I agree with your other comment that romance can't be forced. As a woman even I sorta pressure myself into dating the 'nice guy'. I've had a few occasions where a guy has asked me out and I wasn't really interested but I'd tell myself, "Oh but he says he likes you and calls you pretty. He seems like a nice guy and you want to be the nice girl so giving him a chance would be the nice thing to do! Even though you're not really interested, you can't be too picky. Be flattered you have 'a nice guy' interested at all!" Just leaves me feeling stressed by the situation and depressed before we even really date, like I already know my future will require settling if I follow the mentality that 'someone is better than no one'. This of course doesn't make for a good start between me and the guy. I don't know the secret to chemistry and romance, but simply being nice and available isn't it.
@@fangirl7914 right. And yeah, you really shouldn’t have to date the guy just because “he’s nice.” People also often tell me “you’re not perfect, y’know. If you don’t settle, you’ll be forever alone.” I can’t speak for others, but I feel a loooooot more lonely and depressed when I’m with someone I’m not happy with, than when I’m by myself Also, if you date a guy “because he’s nice,” when nothing is there, that’s not fair to him. And please note, I’m not saying this to attack you. I trust that on some level, you already knew this. *sigh* I just wish there was a way to find the perfect balance between “exciting/thrilling” and “kind and caring.” It often feels like you can only choose one or the other, but I refuse to settle for one simply because I can’t find “the balance.”
The Penny we met in the beginning was great, she was a free spirit who was genuinely interested in getting to know the boys and not only wanted to see things from their perspective, but also wanted to help them broaden their horizons and show them experiences they missed out on growing up, like going to parties, have them listen to new music and even introduce them to things they never took interest in like sports, fashion, pop culture, etc. Great character, right off the bat, but it all starts to fall flat given how Leonard, even in the first episode, just wanted to be with her because she's hot and will boost his reputation as a man and we, the audience, are supposed to root for this. I get that it's supposed to be a love story between the two of them and obviously he needs to have a physical attraction to her, but the show would have benefitted greatly from Leonard finding her attractive in the begining but not being being obsessed by her looks, like Howard and Raj and doesnt start to become infatuated with her until they get to know eachother more and see each other for who they really are. He's the only one to see her as not just a kind, curious and confident person, but also someone with flaws, someone whose not book smart, isn't very introspective and is afraid to be alone and she sees him not only as a smart, caring, friend, but also someone with a ton of insecurites, has trouble setting boundaries, and struggles with expressing himself. Instead Leonard is no different from every other guy Penny has dated in the past, except for he denies it.
The idea of “nerds” cough cough incels writing a fantasy show where they’re finally winning in life is so cringe. No matter how much money or power you have, if you’re an incel you’ll always be an incel. Some guys are physically attractive and just horrible socially and mentally towards women but they blame all these factors besides their personality
I hated that they gave her a child in the end. Honestly I thought the compromise that was suggested as some point with Leonard giving his sperm for another couple baby and he and Penny staying without children would have been the best way to act, but no, it had to be Penny changing her mind... It is even more annoying because childree people need representation. I know a couple who doesn't want children. They both moved in a new town and one of the first question the woman gets asked at her new job, by colleagues that she knows from only a few hours, was : "now that you settle down, you will be having children ?" Like, it was an evidence. And she didn't explain that they don't want at all as she knew she'd have to justify herself or she'll hear "you'll change your mind". If there were characters in mainstream shows that don't want children and stick to it, it would be easier for my friend.
Great analysis! I agree with you on pretty much everything I will say, though, that up until season 12 Penny hasn't said a word about not wanting to have children. In fact, in season 9, Leonard brings that up and she is into them having kids, with the only reservation being that she doesn't want that at that time, but later on. She seems happy about the idea. Then suddenly in season 12 she doesn't want to have children and they act as if the previous conversation never happened. Then this pregnancy reveal at the end without showing us any conversation between Penny and Leonard about it. With barely anything about how it was for her. And you know why it happened like this? Well, because the whole non-parenting plot was merely a plot device, in order for the writers to make the pregnancy reveal a surprise. They were always planning on Leonard and Penny having kids in the end (to come full circle with the "Smart and beautiful babies" phrase from the first episode). So it was not really the character of Penny who was underserved here. It was actual women who do not want to have kids. Which may be even worse. This sensitive issue was treated with disrespect and as if these women are just gonna change their minds (as happened not only with Penny but also Bernadette).
THANK YOU! I couldn't remember the season but I remembered the episode. No one else seems to recall they had a conversation that made it clear they both wanted kids "at some point" it was never about not wanting kids. Then it's like the writers completely forgot (as did the audience) and made this a conflict solely because they were running out of ideas. It's so unfair because in-universe of course it would be a shock to Leonard that she doesn't want kids if they already discussed it but everyone is acting like it didn't happen and it made me so mad!
@@olandir It was also brought up in the season 11 episode where the 2 of them are discussing what to write in a letter to Leonard's brother about what's going on in their lives. He says something about discussing buying a house or having kids. She says she wants all those things someday.
Shows like these are often pretty toxic but the overplayed laughs trick you into dismissing it. Haha, Alcoholisem, Rape, Toxic stereotyps, fatphobia, SA, mocking on all sides
Tbh I’ve always hated how the “humour” of BBT demonized Penny for just being a woman. Never mind that we’re not supposed to judge the adult men as adults, give them a pass for being emotionally stunted and overlook the fact that, in spite of this, they’re doing a lot better than Penny in a world where pretty privilege supposedly gets you everywhere. Penny spent more emotional currency babying her “friends” than they ever repaid with free stuff - a therapist in Penny’s position would’ve made a killing off of helping them, and wouldn’t have had to put up with the constant harassment on top. But the worst thing about it all is how Kaley Cuoco being a good sport about everything irl - likely because she felt replaceable - set her up for more bs later on in the series. Before better, Penny deserved good.
This show!😫 Somehow I'm sure I've watched almost every episode inspite of not liking a moment of this show, it didn't matter whose house I was, they were watching it, even family abroad! Nobody *deserves* someone else, this show is built on cliches in our minds from nerdy underdog who (don't) deserve to win against someone popular, bigger, richer, finer etc, which ties in with every guy projection. I remember it being so obvious that Penny was nothing more than objectification who wasn't going to get the lead character treatment even though the entire plot is 'dorks and the hot chick', so she should be as important, why couldn't we see more of her day to day life at the cafe, acting and auditioning? Why doesn't a confident, socially competent, working, pretty and done up young woman who moved to pursue her career have an active social life? Where are her friends? Where are her family? I hadn't even realised she had no surname. These guys were obnoxious, ironically enough the most outwardly obnoxious - Sheldon, happens to be the least because of his honesty and lack of ulterior motive. Leonard is textbook niceguy, a real snake who's pretty much leader of the pack but gets to quietly steap back, apologize about his friends and look like the 'normal' one. Raj and Howard are the b team reduced to casual stereotypes. The 'other girls' were there simply to give the most repellent and goofy of the leads love interests, their academics replaced personality and like Penny and any other passing woman, they behaved as if they were babysitting these men. There was no reason to force these women into being Penny's only friends other than to give them more screen time and trick people into seeing character and story development, but they're entirely dependent on their other half to stick around. This show did great yet it probably would have fit better in the 90s.
In hands of competent writers it could be cute little story about fundamentaly defferent people figuring out they like each other and wanna make it work. But writers were folks who think "nerd say something nerdy" and "people being dicks to each other" is high of comedy.
@@petrfedor1851 exactly, they could have bothered with their female lead in general, have the nerds be less pitiful and mean spirited and have more who don't fit into either of these supposed polar opposites. What exactly made this woman equivalent to the school popular girl and what made these guys the textbook nerds? The dialogue sounds like they put in 'geek, nerd, dork etc' in urban dictionary and ripped off the results to fill silence.
I had so many problems with Big Bang Theory. In addition to the misogyny and my frustration of how Penny and the other female characters are not able to give the male protagonists a wake up call on how back their toxicity was without looking like a “villain”, it also reinforces so many toxic tropes of nerd culture. As Pop Culture Detective explained in his video Adorkable Misogyny, Lorre made nerds as people to laugh *at*, not laugh *with*. The show obviously didn’t care about the depth of nerd culture but just referencing it for the sake of mockery. That was my big gripe of why I never supported the show - I felt like we were long past low jokes like that and the toxic masculinity (internalized and external) was so excessive. If they actually mocked how ridiculous the latter was, it would be a different story; But it was reinforced by taking away the gravity of the situation. The nerd community has been a very supportive place for me even with its internal problems. Big Bang Theory looks like a fossil due to the shifts that were happening in nerd culture during its original run. Even STEM fields have a lot of these issues but even that’s been changing. I hope BBT gets left as an artifact of its time and it never comes back.
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It blows my mind that there are people that don’t understand that anytime a woman is trying to get something from a man through her looks or sexuality, that the man is also trying to get sex out of a woman through his money or position. This is a two way interaction, anyone getting their ego bruised one way or another is wrong.
Agree
Even Penny feels this is wrong though. In the earlier seasons she took issue with this in three separate episodes: the actress that moved in upstairs, the deaf girl that was milking Raj, and the girl from her hometown that was using Howard.
@@epbrown01 in those episodes she had moments where she felt bad, but then she realize that she is different because she actually cares about them. I think you should re-watch this video because she specifically talks about that.
Exactly they are after the woman sex so what's wrong if she uses her looks or whatever else to get what she wants her as he is doing the same it's an exchange
@@taylorgayhart9497 She realizes she's different or she just *tells* herself she's different?
I'm so tired of writers forcing children on characters who don't want them.
Yeah especially when its women
Yeah, with Bernadette and Penny in tbbt and Jake in b99
I feel like that in itself is part of the "cool girl" image. Contrasting a chill, fun female SO. with a baby-crazed husband-hunter. It adds to the male power fantasy, the woman doesn't want kids, because the guy doesn't want kids, often because he doesn't want to give up independence (or more often is just too immature), Then, suddenly, once the guy wants to settle down the female SO does a 180 and is suddenly super stoked to be a mom.
It's so gross and weird my god
Yeah, it's kinda frustrating when characters who don't want kids are expected to change their minds. Jake and Amy have a way healthier and more supportive relationship than the TBBT couples but I still kinda felt that Penny, Jake and Bernadette deserved better especially because of how Penny's pregnancy plot was handled and Bernadette's career being negatively affected. Also, while Jake and Amy are my fave sitcom ship, it made him giving up his career while the other parents got to have both feel a tad unfair and bittersweet.
I don’t see many people talking about how Penny became successful sales person, but said herself that she wasn’t really happy in that position. And her constant drinking, which was made fun of, but was clearly a sign that she wasn’t all that happy. And it all was just… forgotten at the end? And never addressed? Like, we are all supposed to think that this passionate strong willed character turned back on their dreams only to realise that all she needed all along was.. Leonard? And a job where she sold herself out (as she said herself) and wasn’t fulfilled? What? I felt betrayed by the finale.
Her alcohol addiction really needed to be adressed… it’s not a funny joke
@@35yoglenmckenna31 I genuinely thought writers wanted to reflect her dissatisfaction with life, failure of dreams and then new profitable, but unfulfilling career. How it was weighing on her. Damn, she was really trying and hard working all the time. It was very realistic and I liked it. It could’ve been so cool to watch her deal with this dilemma. But then nothing ever came after that. Her story really could have been so much more than what we got.
This is one of the things that bugged me the most about the end of the series! They turn penny into this bitter, miserable, alcoholic and constantly belittle her for ever making an attempt as an actress. What is the message supposed to be there? Don’t follow your dreams you’ll be miserable in the end? And what, the solution is to settle for the dude across the hall who you weren’t really interested in but he wore you down and he finally went out? Such bs.
Luie at leat she could job as salespersom and doing acting on the side an seeing how that pans out openly , that ould nbe way more intresting.
And she could try becomoing a nurse?! Which financially woulsnt be much but maybe fulfilling and she has really competency there. Somethig that ..
The message I got was that if a passive-aggressive, "woe is me," entitled asshole like Leonard moves in next door, I should move immediately.
The conversation about how Penny got pregnant is horrifying, imagine trusting your partner in your drunken state and they (who are not drunk) decide to not use protection when they KNEW you didn't want children and then blame it on you
in Brazil, this would be classified as r@pe.
@@acaciaeugenia4386 it honestly is cause wtf
@@acaciaeugenia4386 same in uk - illegal
Ikr, as the video says, it's frustrating how the show kept it vague to avoid coming off as a bit questionable but it's actually a pretty uncomfortable situation as the fact that he was sober and didn't put on protection despite knowing that Penny was drunk and didn't want kids is more than a little yikes (especially as it's not the first time that he's taken advantage of Penny being drunk and slept with her while she was drunk and he wasn't) and leaves poor Penny looking a bit trapped as her 'happy ending' is a baby despite not wanting kids and a job she doesn't like just to give Leonard his dream of marrying the 'pretty neighbour' and being a Dad and having a career he enjoys.
Damn, did they gloss over this bit because I do not remember AT ALL that the child was conceived because Penny was drunk. Leonard is sneaky for that.
I really hate the scorn heaped on Penny for choosing not to have children. Not every woman automatically wants to be a parent, and it was refreshing to see Penny stick to her morals. But it felt like a bit of a cop-out when the finale revealed her to be pregnant after all, which went against everything that Penny previously stood for.
I declare that Penny got an abortion off-screen and lived happily childless ever after! It is cannon now.
they did the exact same thing with bernadette, she didn’t want kids at all
I remember reading the comments on one video and they were insulting Penny for not wanting to have kids after all the shit Leonard did for her. Just imagine those commenters having kids and trying to teach that 'lesson' to them.
I was angry with the writers because after alll this time and relationship history they chose to have this serious talk after they are married. You talk about these things before. It was framed like this big sudden thing but apparently Leonard should have known or Penny should have been questioning already so I don't get it. It was quite dumb to frame it like this big decision when in fact it already probably happened
@@inkakoutna7155 it’s such an annoying trope in media tbh like idk why they keep doing it. when me and my bf first started dating we both made it clear that neither of us ever wanted children so we knew we could keep going on with the relationship without that ever being an issue down the road. people not discussing that early on is just baffling to me. some people say it’s “too early” to talk about kids but i think it’s really important to discuss it if you’re interested in a long term relationship with someone
Kaley Cuoco deserved so much better from bbt. I recently watched The Flight Attendant and she's so freaking good in it I'm happy she's been getting better projects now
I think her overall career deserved better. She's been in a lot of stuff and apparently works harder than what her roles demand, and takes her line reading very seriously, memorizing everything all the actors say, but yet her roles are usually just her being the hot blonde, permiscuous chick of the show. While she does it well, it seems like she gets the Megan Fox treatment of typecasting based on how hot she is to the casting calls. While Penny is a flawed character, you could tell most of her character's perception in the show came from how the writers see her. Not what she could bring to the table. Especially knowing that Penny's character was much different in the original pilot and concept, but they toned her down. Penny's characters are usually more interesting than the casts shes with.
I like her in Harley Quinn show too definitely deserved better
did she though? I feel like the two expressions in the thumbnail of this video are the only two expression I've even seen her make. maybe I need to see her in something else.
@@bdp8102 have you watched the flight attendant? I really liked her in it. Her character is kind of a dick sometimes but you really feel for her and what she's going through. There's a scene in the second season that made me cry buckets
@@clarakf I will give it a shot, thank you :)
Looking back I hate how Howard gets away with his creepy behavior to women especially penny
Absolutely, Bernadette deserved better but we're supposed to feel bad for him
@@gensai93 well yes and no Bernadette didn’t deserve a baby and crazy marriage with Howard also Bernadette is kinda a bad person because everyone at her office is scared of her and she doesn’t do anything to stop her toxic work behavior even when called out
@workingelephant302 yeah Howard did have some good development it would have been great for him to meet his father and realize he got his disgusting behavior from him and would bring Howard full circle and be a great episode
i always felt so uncomfortable by him.
He hid a camera in a stuffed animal and gave it to her. And it was laughed off. It's insane.
Idk man, this show always made me uncomfortable, but this video made me realize why. It reminded me of the computer science classes I took in high school where the language and ideas spouted by my male peers were eerily similar to those you talk about
I'm so sorry you had to go through that
I graduated in Computer Science and can attest to the terrible things said about women.
Same, but with 3D computer animation class. Not all of the guys were bad, but a lot of them were a bit...weird, and not in a funny way.
@@mynameisreallycool1 I’m also from an animation degree that was a generalist degree but it was mostly 3D and mostly men. ALL of my lecturers were men. All of them. Every class discussion I was constantly interrupted and spoken over by the overwhelming amount of men in my year so I just stopped talking. Then I got criticised on being silent. When I mentioned this I was told they would look into it and literally nothing happened 🙃
I was warned by female graduates of my degree to not work in the games industry or in the industry at all because we don’t have a union but mainly that the amount of toxic coworkers and misogyny was atrocious and that no one would protect me and if they did they expect ‘something’ in return. I’m actually deathly scared of people and apparently it’s fairly obvious because one graduate mentor I had said to me: “I don’t mean anything nasty by this but I literally took one look at you and knew instantly that the industry would eat you alive. Girl just freelance, you’ll hurt you and you won’t last a year.” So that was a nice wake-up call to get as a second year in university 🥲
@@BriarBeeBenson damn thats crazy wth
honeslty its a big reason to why theres not alot of women trying in male dominated industries because of the constant mistreatment
It’s not a coincidence that the characters that get punished are the two most traditionally feminine characters. Penny is punished professionally by not achieving her dreams, and then made pregnant despite not wanting to be. And Raj wants nothing more than to be in love, and he’s never given a happy relationship. The other night my husband and I were watching the show, and he said out of nowhere, “Man the writers really hate women huh?”
100% also to add onto your comment the racial undertones were so infuriating.
Raj the only minority in the main cast was considered 'less desirable' than the other nerds.
Even Sheldon who was not interested in a relationship got one yet Raj who wanted to be in a happy relationship didn't!
It just perpetuates the idea of asian (in this case south asian) men being more feminine, less attractive compared to their whiter counterparts. Which in real life is utter bs.
How does it hate women? Amy and Berni accomplished everything they hoped for and I believe the writers were working on Penny and Raj doing the same but rushed the last episodes cause the actors decided not to come back for a final session
@@manniefresh3425 perhaps they did, but Bernadette and Amy were insufferable to watch.
Bernadette has this annoying squeaky voice (I’m not sure if it’s the actress and if it is I’m sorry, but they definitely put her in situations to make it worse) and she’s pedantic and bullies the people around her into doing what she wants them to do.
Meanwhile Amy is portrayed as incredibly undesirable, with her frumpy clothes, her narcissistic moments and her constant reminder to everyone that she used to be bullied and needs to make up all the cliché girl stuff.
Even if both got their great ending, the show did them dirty for the main part.
@@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339 Bernadette's voice is from her actress's mom. Melissa doesn't actually speak like that. According to her, her mom does though.
@@haotiankong6904 so she's imitating her? do you happen to know why?
People like to point out the sexism in many sitcoms but I honestly think TBBT is the worst sitcom for women. While shows like HIMYM, Friends, Seinfeld, Frasier, and Two and a Half Men (just to name a few) have their fair share of misogyny, at least the characters on those shows are called out for their bad behavior. (And at least those shows were funny).
But in TBBT all the men are automatically absolved of any wrongdoing because they are "nerds". Aside from Sheldon, ALL the men on the show are straight-up assholes or creeps. Every joke/premise boils down to the following: Sheldon is weird, Howard is Jewish, Raj is Indian, Leonard is in love with Penny, and Penny is a slut. Everyone, including Bernadette and Amy, is so elitist about their degrees/achievements, and Penny is always made to look like an idiot. Yes, friends tease each other, but they are constantly condescending.
THIS
Naw...Sheldon was absolutely an asshole. I agree with the rest of your comment, though.
But these people are all these things, lol it’s uses the reality and is relatable which is why it soo popular there is no misogyny in it
@Freja Lindberg I honestly find Ted to be so much worse than Barney. The player trope that Barney is written as is one we can easily recognize and avoid in real life if we don't want to get involved with it. And Barney committed wholeheartedly twice when there WAS someone he was serious about. He accepted them as they were. Meanwhile the Teds of the world are insidious and everywhere. It never feels like his partners are actually partners, just women there to fill the role in his fantasy. It's dishonest and gross. And having a guy like that as an ex, I can tell you from experience it's damaging as hell on multiple levels. The mindsets of the two is the most obvious in their relationships with Robin: Barney wants her exactly how she is and respects her boundaries and desires while Ted ALWAYS superimposed his goals onto her.
I don't wanna talk about the misogenic behaiviour, because I just kinda consume the show as a light joke and yes, am a man soo... not as sensitive to this matter, which means I did not always see it, get it, understand the point of view... and so on.
But when it comes to the "elitism" and the proudness on achievemets, I get it. I see it at the university all the time. I am not saying it is ok, but it is very common at my faculty. The sort of people that get to this level of education is kinda special, but both ways. I am always saying that the brain, same as all other parts of a human beeing has its limits. When you have genius level inteligence in Science, you most probably are not as good at sports, athletics and most of all at social interactions. Because of that most of the Ph.Ds got bullied at lower levels of school system, which is mentioned on the show many times. Because of that, their social ranking is close to zero and that lead to deprivations at youth. Other deprivations these geniuses get from their parents/teachers/themselves, so when these people grown up, you have group of elite level geniuses with messed up personality. Most of them are really low on their selfesteem, which they compensate with their level of education and achievements, which is really the only thing that they have/they have been told to matter.
So when a person with lower level of inteligence, which also meen with higher level of social skill, comes to this group, they look at this person by their standarts, at least at first. That means that the first thing visible to them is the education. When we reverse it, if this genius gets to the group of let's say "normal people", they will see him as awkward, wierd and so on, because they see the social skill first. This series is about the elite geniuses male or female, which get this normal, but much better socialy skilled person in their ranks. You can see, that they get to her over time, that most of them kinda envy her social skills, which by the way leads to many jokes that I did not get were seen as over the top, but you can not expect these people to change their scale of values, which they have for ever.
I have been on both sides. When I am with my football team (someone in US thinks that it should be called soccer, which is false). I am constantly mocked with my talking about things my peers do no understand, and also over my not good foot technique. They are my friends, but they see my diferences. Other thing is when I get somewhere with other history students and someone who doesn't walk thru the same pain as us comes with us. He/she/it would not understand most of the things we talk about, which is completely normal, but that person would be somehow overlooked. In just this particular case.
So my point is, the braging about theit Ph.Ds is kinda all they could have.
I am sorry about the lenght of the comment, I am kinda in the middle of studiing for my Bachelor exam and I needed a little of procrastination. I am also sorry if something with my english is bad, I am not native speaker. Have a nice day.
I was so thrown off with how Bernadette berated Penny for not wanting kids when she herself didn’t want any either.
It’s like the writers were trying to put this idea about women who say that they don’t want children, but actually do.
If women don’t want children they don’t want children!
What else do you expect when misogynistic men are writing women? 🤷♀️
in the world of the big bang theory, happiness can only be achieved by marriage and kids. its ironic that a show with characters outside the social norm end up confining to the social norm.
I thought it was pretty obvious in that episode that Bernadette was in the wrong, especially showing how she's annoyed and frustrated being a mother a looot.
you'd be surprised how many women want you other women to have kids just because they have kids. It's a " I had go through this so you need to too" thought process
@@lstarsabb Misery loves company, unfortunately.
It's so gross how perverted Howard was and was even rewarded for. He should've never been coddled by the show for his racist remarks and inappropriate behavior/sexual harrassment.
Ikr, it's so messed up that she was made to feel bad for and comfort Howard when he'd been harassing her and making her uncomfortable with pervy remarks, it's so gross that she has to apologise and that Leonard, who's supposedly in love with her and would 'do anything' for her (but just wanted her for her looks and to sleep with her), is the one who tells her she should because he cares more about the robot competition than Penny being harassed. The whole treatment of Penny is so rooted in sexism as is the fan reaction to her and she was often treated appallingly by the writers and male leads and was shamed/judged for everything she did and even her so-called 'satisfying' moments were either unsatisfying and don't include a win for her and/or involve her doing everything for the men who insult and/or sexualise her and make her feel she 'owes' them. Howard's racism with how he treats Raj is awful too and his behaviour towards women is so predatory at certain points that it's illegal.
As it is. Really.
It’s a comedy played out for the sake of being stupid. If you don’t like it, don’t fukin watch it!
@@heatherstephenson3559 he called Penny a 'shiksa' which is a very degrading, demeaning word
He can get away with it because hes Jewish
They did it to Bernadette too. She said multiple times that she wanted a "stay at home dad" because she refused to give up her career for kids. Then, while ACTIVELY describing to Penny how fucking awful having kids is, she SHAMES her for not wanting some herself. What the fuck.
"What the fuck"? Well, wasnt that the obvious irony tho?
Yeah I didn't get that bc it seemed like everything Bernadette hated about her percieved ideas of motherhood came into fruition so it was hard to see her actually enjoying it. Wasn't she even sad when she got pregnant the 2nd time?! Also I thought it was funny that Raj became their nanny when I thought her husband was supposed to be a stay at home dad like the original plan was.
@@Moonlight_Shad0w No I wouldn't call that irony. Irony would have been if she had a stay at home dad and then hated it and volunteered to switch places. What happened in the show was more of lies, manipulation and failing to hold up the original agreement.
I know a lot of parents like that . They'll talk about how difficult it is while simultaneously berating you for not wanting one .
@@jclyntoledoUm, they never showed any agreement for Howard to just be a stay at home Dad.
In one of the episodes, it showed Howard and Bernie talking about the possibility of one of them staying home full time and Howard said he thought it should be hm. But then Bernadette said no and basically told him it should be her choice (i.e if she wanted to be the stay at home parent, she should get to).
In the end, neither stayed home full time (apart from Bernie’s maternity leave period, which I dont think was all that long) and both still kept their jobs.
Seeing the comments on the unaired pilot shows why they changed her to be so "forgiving". The "Penny" in the pilot actually sticks up for herself and is a flawed person, but most people only see an "evil woman" rather than one trying to survive in LA.
I wish we could have seen that version of the show. It seemed like the female characters of the show just never got their own justification to disagree with anything, or about themselves from the perceptions of the male characters thrown upon them.
Unrelated but I see your "Chuck" user profile. The much, _much_ better show. 👀
Nobody likes a b**ch* character. It´s about enjoy a show and make money.
Nerdstalgic's only purpose is to parrot status quo opinions about pop culture
the fact that the writers made her have an unplanned pregnancy is just so gross. they just kept giving her what she didn't want the entire show
To be fair that's what life is. Unexpected things happen.
@Guatalmlanfoodlover2019 yeah but people are allowed to abort potential children if they don't want any, we shouldn't have to keep children just because
@@Guatalmlanfoodlover2019She should be allowed to have an abortion since she clearly didn't want kids.
Kaley Cuoco is an avid equestrian and I am too and the whole “Penny is muscular and masculine” hits close to home. I’m not one of those tall, willowy long legged riders in breeches and tall boots (and I have difficulty finding English boots that fit me since my legs are short. Men joke about wanting women who ride since we do tend to have nice butts and legs, but then men realize that they come second to horses and feel threatened by women who aren’t intimidated by a 1200 lb animal and drive a bigger rig than they do. I’ve even been told that dating me is “like dating a dude.”
I’ve noticed that “tomboys” in media tend to still conform to a male ideal being slender, yet curvy, wearing loose hair despite its impracticality, makeup and a sexier version of the outfit than is practical. Mikaela in Transformers is a gear head and instead of working on cars in jeans and an old shirt, has a sheen of sweat in a tank top and short shorts while sexily bending over a vehicle
Kaley is a sagittarius so all of this adds up astrologically (centaur imagery, ruling the hips, strong physique, traditionally “masculine” qualities) do you know if you have any sag in your chart?
I didn't know she was an equestrian but that makes sense, Kaley really doesn't seem intimidated by most things and just seemed very relaxed in every interview I've seen her in.
"like dating a dude" and yet it's also men who wrote "why can't a woman be more like a man" for My Fair Lady. Like women can never be good enough.
The only one who's ever made remarks about her being muscular manly with Sheldon as we can Sheldon is the one of the most feminine men ever on TV
This is quite a funny situation becuz when I did notice Penny's body, I thought she looked amazing and not at all like a man.
The fact that Bernadette was faced with the whole have the kid or break things up with your partner was so annoying to me. Both of them had their whole life ahead of themselves so she could have just explain that she wanted to have kids later. The fact that the pregnancy is portrayed so often as a you need to go through with it just because it's so tiring.
Despite being the only character that didnt have an awful relationship dynamic, ended up just kind of settling for nothing only to just support Howards goals. Even in the episode where it made her miserable, yet Howard was still allowed to pursue his with no problem and she supported him. There just always seemed to be this tone where she and Penny never had a choice not to or even say no for the moment.
Yeah, which episode were you referring to specifically, sorry? Yeah, it's kind of unfair and a shame that Bernadette ended up with not one but two kids so close together when she didn't even want kids and ended up feeling conflicted about going to work and then having projects taken from her and not having that much support or help from Howard (it's annoying that people act like she was wrong or selfish in the playhouse ep when she had a lot to deal with and Howard was doing just fine chilling in the hot tub and hadn't sacrificed his job or anything) as he didn't do anything round the house but he's the one that acted freaked out even though he wanted kids and he didn't really have to care for them that much or sacrifice anything as he got to still have his job, the band and cool opportunities like the planetarium and Will Wheaton show and was kinda selfish and ungrateful in the motorbike ep a she implied his family weren't enough for him.
@@heatherstephenson3559 I don't know the episode exactly but there is the one where Howard goes into space to repair the space station again and she tells him that it made him sick and he hated it. It shown that she card for him but supported him anyway pursuing it again while she was left at home with their kids.
The there is also that episode where Bernedette cries about Raj being abetter mother than her, or when she had to decide if she wanted to go back to work or be a mother for thekids, while Howard could do whatever he wanted. I know those are all real things women think about but, it seemed like as soon as she got married, she immediately had two kids and as the only one deciding these things she had to compromise for. As a mother. Ironically it gave Penny a better position to not have kids, because when Beredette had 2 kids, she pretty much couldn't do anything but just support Howards aspirations. We never even know what hers are because of how fast they just made her a mother because they never gave her any episodes where he would support something she wanted to do outside of being a mother, even when prior to it she was concerned by it even while she was also making more than him. Its an even greater case for Penny to not have kids, because she wouldn't want to do that nor could afford it. I just feel like it was one of those shows that, this idea really damaged the characters and themes when they forced these relationships and traditionalism on them at the last minute.
Yeah, I kinda get what you mean as while Howard had some moments with the kids, he never really took care of them that much or had to do much with/for them and got everyone else to do everything (like when Bernie was about to have Halley and with Halley's first birthday party). He also didn't have to make sacrifices and got to keep his job and opportunities and interests and while it's maybe realistic that typically Dads sacrifice less and aren't guilted whatever they do like many mothers are/have been but it's frustrating that he's the one who wanted kids and Bernie ended up having two despite not wanting kids and the fact that some people call Howard a great Dad just shows how low the bar is for Dads.
The risks of abortion are HUGE. Better have kids young.
and the jokes at cuoco's expense only got worse when she got that pixie haircut around the last seasons. it was unbearable, she looked amazing but ”noo!! dumb sitcoms can't have short hair women!!” i couldn't stand it. hopefully someday we get a reboot where the male characters are forced to self reflect about their misogyny bc the concept itself was charming
She looked so gorgeous with that haircut, I loved it! This show was about 50 years behind in its conception of gender roles
I would like a reboot where they did change some stuff, especally on how Penny is treated and really reconstruct the just awful relatonship paths most of the characters were on. I couldnt stand how forced Penny and Leonard were as a pairing despite it really not working in any natural way. Or the over adherence to conventional social expectations of either nerds or relationship expectations, and why they could never differ realistically. Like Penny just having guy friends, and not just being everyone's conquest goal, her not having children being accepted, her not being just seen as dumb or a loser. etc.
I don’t think a reboot would fix any of that. More so people just not being so okay with watching weird and inappropriate behavior as if it’s okay.
That pixie haircut was not very good on her and I like Kelly but she has a long neck it doesn't work right
They did which is how Howard evolved over time, well not the misogyny part, there was no misogyny in the show
Very good essay. As a kid who watched this show because I was a nerdy girl who wanted to go into STEM, I didn’t recognize a lot of the misogyny underlying a lot of this shows humor
The STEM fields are so filled with misogyny. That's why I didn't bother to continue working in tech after the military.
Sources: I have a cousin (not much older than me, four year older to be exact, dad's side) who holds a relatively high position at the NRC. Oh boy... she's 38, but because of our ethnicity (Puerto Rican), she looks much younger (she barely looks 27) and has a hard time being taken seriously (and this lady has an MS in Chem eng from U. MD). Second, I have *ANOTHER* cousin (mother's side) who's ten years *younger* who graduated from the Va Tech last year. Mech engineering, btw. Also having a hard time being taken seriously for the same reason: she looks *A LOT* like Aubrey Plaza, but she's a bit more extroverted and is pansexual. Yet people expect her to be all _weird_ and crap. This lady entered VT on a *BASKETBALL* scholarship first and foremost, since my uncle and godmother live and breath NBA (despite he was raised by a dairy rancher, is a Chem engineer also dabbled in basketball because his other brother played basketball on a semi-pro basis back in PR).
Sorry for the tangent.
So you got crazier and conspiracy minded
Of course you didn't.. it's because you hadn't yet been trained to see it via nit picking and injecting ideological bias into your head. Our brain is designed to see patterns but also our brains require us to draw upon previous knowledge to construct our perceptions of reality. If you prime someone to see a thing, they will see it. Hell you can even force this sort of distortion via peer pressure as evidenced by the line experiment where subjects are shown 2 lines of differing lengths and asked to state weather or not the lines are the same or not. If you have a buncha people before you state the uneven lines are the same, only those who are low in agreeableness will "see" different lines, the others will either go along with the group or be unable to see the difference due to the priming effect of the group.
The way critical theory is done is by posing leading questions in order to get someone to come to the realization that it is so. Literally, this is what the guys who developed critical theory stated. It's not a critical theory unless you already have a conclusion in mind that will direct inquiry.
Same! I related to Sheldon, my family thought it was just funny, as did kid me. Turns out I've been autistic this whole time lol
@@keylanoslokj1806 so you're an incel
It’s interesting because so many aspects of penny are well written but then simply fall back onto tired tropes. I wonder if show ever had any female writers give their actual input on the character.
I would think not based on this and other great videos on BBT
I really wondered the same thing. An odd choice to allow her character to be so sympathetic. I'd expect with such obvious misogyny on display, that she would be written with some villainous qualities to justify the shit she is constantly given and her poor lot in life.
But not really, she is kind of a great character despite the completely unselfaware mess the rest of the show is
@@klaratehcoolcat it's because misoginy doesn't need a justification, you can be the coolest most perfect girl of all time, and it will be never enough to stop misoginy.
@@akasakikawasaki1890 i think youre correct. but my point was, i think it's awfully generous to say the writers *intended* that message.
When most of the other messages they focus on driving home are, like, "women have it too easy" and "women take advantage of men! It's sexism!"
Yah i mean she still ends really competent and , she should be allowed to be at leat agnowledged with sucess or respect for being that competent and resourceful and dealing with , like she should be a really strong multilayered female character that regardless is feminine. Burt isnt treated as such.
And if that wasnt intnded the actess deserves even more credit.
Tbh the fact she was named Penny always reminded me of Penny from Dr. Horrible's Singalong Blog, and the way both of the Pennys were treated by the nerdy guys 'in love with them' was always ranging from creepy to toxic
Simon Helberg also worked on that show. Whoa
TBBT aired before Dr. Horrible did but I get what you meant
@@HealthyObbsession I saw Dr. Horrible before TBBT so that's the order I approach them in lol
The fact that she was never even given a last name in the show until she married Leonard. And I'm Dr. Horrible there wasn't a last name for Penny either.
@@gensai93 tbf tho that was a really short movie and no one had a last name that was given.
the reason why the guys get away of acknowledge they awful behavior is because they aren't perceived as "a real threat" (they not violent or emotionally unstable), this make people believe they can't be @busive toward others; when the reality is that this kind of guys are emotional manipulators, maybe even emotional @busers, and trie to masks it as concern, good actions or jokes; and the thing is: they genuinely think they are the good guys based on doing the bare minimum the majority of time, and all the micro aggression are others people being too sensitive.
The authors did wrong making Penny apologized to them, she could regretted the way she said but never what she said.
Promising young woman did a great gob of putting the “nice guy/nerd” thing to bed.
This is true and they are some of the worst ever wolves in sheep's clothing. I know because when I was in high school those were the types I got to know and dated. They are sneaky and slick with it then pretend they would never have done whatever they did because they are such nice guys
@@Introvertsan I dated 1 like this too, snick little devil, always played be a angel in front of others, saying it was a joke, never admitted his wrongs. Nobody understood when I break up, but I found a better partner and I'm happier than ever.
The fact that she was so important to the plot yet didn't even have a last name was one of the first things that bothered me about the show, but her overall treatment is appalling to say the least , Kaley Cuoco deserved way better
I think her last name was Teller. Penny Teller.
Penny literally deserved better. People don't credit her at all for the boys' character growth.
there's this bittersweet irony with penny that the women on tbbt apparently neither care nor really understand comic books* but then kayley cuoco goes on and produces one of the best comic book series currently on tv. harley quinn animaged series you'll always be famous
(*i understand there's a whole episode where the women pick apart thor and such but still, i think you get what i mean)
That's a boss move lol. I love this
On that note did you know that the actress who plays Bernadette voices Harley Quinn in the Batman Video game. The irony
@@xylypotatohead3947 i did not but i Love love LOVE that fact thank you! :D
Wow its almost as If the actress wasnt the character, because actresses...you know...act.
yes she definitely did deserve to be treated better.
Had absolutely no idea that this show did this woman so dirty 😮💨 my eyes are wide
bruh I knew the writers had a weird view on women when they had that episode where penny had to apologise to howard after getting angry at him harassing her
Yes, was obviously, so creepy.
Penny and Kaley Cuoco both deserved to be treated better. Great video as always! :)
I dislike the show. It seems to degrade everyone involved. And let's be honest just cause they don't say it doesn't mean they aren't making the entire joke with Sheldon that he has a neurological condition. It seems like it punches down on women, nerds and the neurodivergent to make jokes for straight neurotypical white dudes.
Oh yeah exactly. For me they make Sheldon autistic codex but then when ask if he was autistic, they say "no he was not" so they can continue to make jokes about his autistic traits.
Same when asked if he was asexual, they say no and then continue to make jokes about his lack of interest in sex and the weirdest if, even in his relationship with Amy, sex still looks like something he only does for her on special occasions, so they don't even use their relationships to say "see he is not asexual" and continue to make jokes targeting people who are not interested in sex.
Isn't my mother has me tested mocks Sheldon?
The pregnancy scenes hit even harder now since the whole Roe v Wade situation
What was this?
@@FacebookQueen are you asking when it got overturned? Also one state is thinking about making it legal to shoot someone if you find out if they just had an abortion.
@@hinata167 I was asking what the Roe v Wade situation is
@@FacebookQueen oh. It got overturned so in some states you'll go to jail if you get an abortion. Recently a 10 year old girl was raped and she had to go out of state for one.
Girl...have you been living under a rock or something 💀
The whole kids conversation with Bernadette and then the whole pregnancy ending is really fucked up and weird. It makes me surprised Bernadette and the fact that Leonard gets mad at her for being pregnant. It's also so gross and weird how she is constantly made to apologize. It's definitely like the show wanted to make the perfect woman for nerdy guys who identify with the main characters, conventionally hot, not smarter than them, one of the guys, but always in "her place," never holding men around her accountable for anything.
This video couples really well with the Pop Culture Detective's video "Adorkable Misogyny," which focuses much more on the men's actions and attitudes toward women than from Penny's perspective specifically.
th-cam.com/video/X3-hOigoxHs/w-d-xo.html
YES! I was thinking the exact same thing!
a classic
Yes and they recently did a video about the “Harmless Peeping Tom” that talks about the hero always peaks trope.
@@MarieForest Frasier and Niles from Frasier creepy af
Oof yeah, pop cultures video made me look at big bang differently
I always thought she should have ended up with Sheldon. They challenge each other in a way more interesting way
I like them as friends, but yeah they are great, like he really i think apreciates her skill to deal with him ,
like she would be a great nure honestly, she is stroong, hands on and has the peoples skills.
And its probably hr most healthy relationship.
Dunno her and raj could have been interesting.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. When the show started getting him with Amy, I was like, "huh, who dis b? Keep at it with Penny/Sheldon!" >:o
Males and females can be friends.. Doesn't always need to be romantical. Especially when they have no chemistry like that
@@TheSuperkeks888 you know, just because I like a ship doesn’t mean I don’t think men and women can de friends. It’s interested how this type of comments frequently occur when I ship someone with an autistic character.
@@FouEliane this has nothing to do with Sheldon being autistic or not autistic. I don't know about the other comments of yours but maybe the chemistry isn't there? Ever thought about that? I've seen autistic male characters and they had good chemistry with female characters... Don't make this about something else
Whoever wrote this show is definitely telling on themself
I agree but I can't stop looking at your profile pic and laughing holy shit
looks like he's saying "FHHLLUEGGHHmmmmpfff"
There is definitely a strong unconscious gender bias than I originally thought. I used to just hate 2 and a half men for how bad that show was.
Yup
Omg me too, that show made me so uncomfy. How do people find it funny?
I HATE it in us shows when a character falls pregnant and it's as if she HAD to have the baby. Abortion isn't brought right away at all or like a "big thing" to do when it's NOT. It's not a bad thing to take a pill or have a procedure when the feotus is barely formed to CHOOSE if you want a kid and when. Having a kid when you can't because you're not financially stable, too young, not in a good relationship etc does no good for anyone. Neither does having a kid when you don't really want it. Why not choose the ideal solution when you can and it's that easy ? Having a kid if and when you want it and are ready so they feel loved and are ideally taken care of ?
Crazy Ex Girlfriend has a married character who has an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant because her career is taking off, and her husband supports her decision.
It wouldn't even be a fetus, they fall into that name only towards the end of the first trimester. Literally just a clump of cells. My canon is that Penny aborted the fucked, left Leonard and became a director.
This whole entire paragraph is so tone deaf yet you claim to be for women...
You're the Worst had one the characters aborting her offspring against his husband's Will as a Main plotline in Season 2
BBT really had a lot of problems. But it was a show you could turn your brain off for. I think that's why it stayed so long, most people just glossed over all the many flaws
I think the flaw that finally made me look closer at the show was (along with a grwoing hatred of Sheldon) the treatment of Raj. Everyone finally got paired up except for Raj and the writers seemed to think it was funny to code him as being gay. The stereotpye of hte effiminate Asian man didnt sit well with me.
@@lkeke35 especially after they made him get back with Anu and not stay together because of external reasons. Also the not being able to talk to woman thing. Earlier on the show they found out it's psychological and I thought that he would solve the problem soon after the episode. But no seasons had to pass. Ridiculous
I saw it when i was a kid so i didn't understand that a lot of the stuff happening was creepy. I felt very sad a lot of the time watching it, but didn't know why and it eventually became so unpleasant that i stopped altogether
@@lkeke35 Agreed, as an Indian American dude, Raj offended me more than Apu ever did.
True. I watched BBT way late, like near the end of the series, by accident. It was just a nice place to leave the tv on as white noise as I did other stuff or turned my brain off the constant stress. To this day I can leave the tv on while it passes bc it still works as a nice white noise to do house chores, though I can't be bothered to watch the later seasons. Can say I never bothered to analyze the plot at all.
Between this and other essays I've seen about the writer's treatment of the male characters, specifically with respect to their nerd qualities, I can only conclude that the writers hated all of the characters in different and specific ways, and that their main objective, implicitly or explicitly, was to just sh*t on them in every way they could. The pregnancy at the end of the show is just the cherry on top of a 12 season humiliation cake.
Correct. The writting style of this show was alway to make the joke at the character's expense. It was very much punch down humor on everyone (no one was immune) and that was always the joke... and it lasted for 12 years, with some of the most consistently high ratings ever for a TV sitcom... so what does that say about our society...
Chuck Lorre’s (idk how his name is spelled) has a very misogynistic way of writing both male and female characters. Women are objectified by their looks and seem as a sort of burden for the male lead. I really just don’t like his writing overall.
And yet the guy has had 2 or 3 highly successful series. I'm not disagreeing with your statement about his writing, I also think he's got a lot of narcisistic tendencies, but apparently it's "what the people want" because they keep watching hiis shows. Not sure what that says about society as a whole.
@@olandir what it says about society is that most people are still hugely misogynistic lmao
@@olandir We live in a misogynistic society. That’s what that means. It’s not rocket science lol.
@@olandir Yeah, I remember reading how awful the show has gotten because Howard wasnt as misogynistic anymore. Like, "Its unrealistic for Howard to point out sexism!" Or how Howard isnt funny anymore. Even tho its quite normal for someone to become less sexist when they fall and love and/or get a daughter/son.
TBBT was sold as "finally, a show for nerds like you" but it actually was "Friendzone: the show (with pop culture references)".
Now that I think about it, the moment I realized how awful the idea of the friendzone is, I stopped watching this show. I also didn't like how we were meant to laugh to the comic store guy's depression.
I honestly felt absolutely awful for Stuart! He’s a fantastic artist, empathetic and owns his own business yet is completely alone due to having physical oddities, being socially awkward and also picking bad habits from his friends who treat him worse than a stray cat. It’s honestly awful. He barely eats, he’s sick and can’t afford to go to the doctor and constantly does things for his ‘friends’ only for them to treat him like less than garbage.
The only character who treated him with a shred of human decency was Raj and I was so mad that Stuart and Raj just didn’t end up together since Stuart was a MUCH better friend than Howard ever was to Raj. But nooo! God forbid a sitcom have a gay couple ever and have it not be either lesbians where they’re just fetish eye candy for straight men and one is the ‘man’ and the other is the ‘woman’. Or have it just be an infinite supply of disgusting homophobic jokes.
But even the TBBT couldn’t do that or else they would lose some of their white cishet homophobic male audience 🙄
This!
Great video! The pregnancy in the finale is a huge yikes! Loved that you called out Bernadette’s comments to Penny were bc misery loves company.
The whole thing about Penny being shamed for not being able to get by financially is also a nice intersection with the problem of capitalism and workers' rights issues imo. It shows again that you can hardly discuss sexism and patriarchy properly without at some point also addressing the economic question.
This is new.
@@fuckoff_loserr What do you mean?
@@tarvoc746 Nah. I meant this is a new perspective I got. Thanks.
@@fuckoff_loserr Aaah, okay. Fair enough, glad I could help. 😄
Doesn't Penny want to be an actor? The arts are hardly a guaranteed paycheck. That's not the patriarchy that's just supply and demand. There are many more actors than high paying acting jobs. It's not like she has a Wharton MBA and a company passed her over for the owner's cousin.
What I hate about Penny and Leonard is the power dynamic. He is a great caltech physicist and she is still struggling. And the constant need to diminish Penny's success or her upbringing. How can he disrespect her so much even he got a a successful mother.
Uh so? Didnt you pay atention of how his mother is...
I looked up Penny's last name to see how it was subtly implied, and as it turns out it's worse than them just forgetting to give her a name- they actively wanted her not to have one. According to the producers of the show they shot around revealing her maiden name during her wedding and the last names she was assigned were just set dressing to fill out a prop. They thought it would be cuter if she didn't have a last name until she took Leonard's. It makes her character seem just so depressing.
this could have been nice if they had a hyphenated name, or if he took hers....
The implications of this are soooooo fucked
the pregnancy plot line is horrible if my partner violated our trust, and my body, and disrespected me like that as a person let alone there wife i would be so devastated and heartbroken the writers could have wrote that he was drunk too but they chose to put that he decided to go against their boundaries for his sake and that's truly awful
yesss the algorithm finally started showing Cheyenne's new vids on my home page instead of hiding them from me for *months*
Sheldon and Amy was the healthiest relationship in that show. The other male leads were all man-children who saw sex as the main goal of the relationships, and the female leads regularly belittled and body-shamed their partners in public. Quite frankly, they may all have gotten the partners they deserved.
I disagree. I thought Bernie and Howard actually felt like a real couple, because Howard stopped his sexual conquests after got with Bernedette. They seemed like the only two characers who actually liked each other with full awareness of their habits. They both make efforts to comfort each other and they actually seem like they come to agreements together, they both enjoy their sex lives and However tries to show he's suportive despite his stress over his mother and his drawsto comedy. They we never seemed perfect or couple-sues but were earnest, like Homer and Marge Simpson. They were opposite of how awful Leonard and Penny were together.
Amy and Sheldon on the other hand, to me was the 2nd most unhealthy. Amy just semed like she wanted something from Sheldon he wasn't realistically interested in and they got mocked for it all the time. She wanted sex more than he did a lot of the time but she was always let down and frustrated with him a lot in the show for the way he treated her outside of her friendship with him. Their relationship as it was always seemed like she was just babysitting him due to the higher standard dating him put on him. Though they do acknowledge what she wants is difficult for him, it just seemed like there wasnt much compromise to make her happy as a partner, even though she supported him as a friend. It was one of those relationshiships that did not have to happen.
Sheldon was just too neuralogically different for her. He could live without romance and intimacy, becaue he is happier with his hobbies, but she wanted it due to how socially repressed she was. Those were just two different things that were a false similarity. She was always miserable with him. She had more chemistry with Leonard on both ends than she did with Sheldon and he did with Penny. They should have been together if they had to.
All men see sex as the goal. You don't understand shit right
@Luke Jameson Penny and Leonard always seemed forced on the show and between each other. Leonard always seemed to just have better chemistry with other women like Raj's sister and even Amy. Both of them just seemed like they thought they had to be together after it didn't work, instead of it just being accepted that they weren't comparable but were better friends.
Nah, Amy and Sheldon had the exact same problem the other couples had, in that any wanted more out of Sheldon that what Sheldon could give and kept forcing and pressuring him to give her the things she wanted
Honestly, even if its more like she sometimes acts as caretaker, her and sheldon have a way better relationship, as friends. He actually respects her. I think, not seen all show.
Re watching the show made me realize of a lot of issues the show dismisses and this video gives a great insight on Penny's character and the "pretty girl" trope.
But one of the things I realized that also gets downplayed/dismissed or just "fixed" quickly are the traumas the characters carry.
Like how Amy's mom was (at worst) emotionally manipulative towards her, and at best, seems to have shut Amy off a bit from things. How Bernadette had to take care of her siblings and she hated it, Howard having an overbearing mother and a missing father, Raj's whole thing with not being able to speak to women unless he had a drink, Sheldon growing up being different from others, and I think the most noticeable one, Leonard basically growing up as an experiment for her mother, which impacted me the most because in that last season, he literally only forgives her because he knows she won't change and doesn't want to keep thinking she will.
This show dismisses so many issues its kind of infuriating
Altough the Leonard arc was realistic. Healing means chosing how to deal with a problem and how to find inner peace. He cant change his childhood, but he can accept it and work through it, clean up the damage. This also means acceping your child-parent relationship. Forgiveness is pretty hard, so is apologizing. I thought it was nice to see how Leonard stood up for himself for once and confronted his mother, and his mother reflecting. explaining and apologizing, even tho we met her as a selfish, unemotional, never-in-the-wrong mother. Something I wish for my situation, altough I know this will never happen.
Thanks! I really appreciate and enjoy your content.
thank you so much, im glad you enjoy my work :)
Every time someone makes a video about this show, I realize a new terrible aspect of the show.
One thing I'm confused about is if penny just finished high school how is she 21/early 20s?
Thanks!
I apriciate the work you put into making your videos. Very well made and thoughtful. Always thrilled to see a new one
thank you so much
thank you for talking about this. i always felt so disgusted with the way they treated penny and i just remember how i kept saying "she deserves so much better" when these kind of stuff happened
I have a family member who LOVED the "Big Bang Theory" when it aired. I was having a convo with them one day and even they had something to say about how problematic the show was. That says something to me.
I remember watching this show as a young teen and hating how "the boys" treated Penny. That not only did they have no self reflection but the group as a whole was clearly supporting shaming their new friend who was uncomfortable with the situations they were put in.
It also made me nervous as a 14 year old that male friends expected me to "put out" for any favour by normalising that mentality.
I completely disagree with Penny and Leonard being a good relationship. I didn't think they were a good fit. A lot of their relationship was just built on just Leonard kind of forcing himself to like her because she was the girl next door, even though he's had better relationships outside of Penny. They broke up because of just the friction they had but Penny had no other options other than Leonard because she was always dating tall, often identical jerkish jocks. Even though Leonard was a very whiny, insecure, jealous, guy who always had expectations from her that he rarely accepts if she doesn't want to do them, she ended up giving in to him because she had no other picks. In the show, no other guys to compare Leonard to that wasn't inherently worse. It seemed like her reason to be with him was just her self-deprication.
I kinda liked Zac. He was protrayed to be dumb, but he actually seemed very kind. Maybe it was just the actor who played him, but he was never mean to anyone he came in contact with, and was very genuine. He was kind of like the anti-Sheldon.
By season 4 she had already hooked up with 34 guys so I think she had quite a few pics I'd have been picking them wrong
@@olandir I still think Penny should have gone off with Bernadette’s hot ex.
Its hard not to get a lot of 2007 vibes from how Hollywood, Interviewers and Directors viewed Megan Fox to how the show views Penny. After this you can definitely tell the perspective the show was written in. Calling the writing pretty sexist isnt just a reaction but pretty legitmate in the logic of where the comedy comes from at Penny's expense. Its really not that much different from 2 and a Half men. Now that I look back on that particular aspect.
Its only surprising that Penny's character herself isn't written into the stereotypes she is mocked for but does justify herself in them, but the comedy of the show makes her always wrong for her positions or in what they think she can ge away with, even though she never actually shows herself doing it. Like getting by on her looks or free food. If she could, then why would she worry about her expenses that they know about? Or that her sex life is referenced as something inherently damaging of her, even though they just assume who she is from it. Like as if her casually dating men short term is somehow more contemptable than themselves who none of them have actually had any relatonships and struggle with women all the time in the show? Even though its not as if Penny ever brags about her sexual escapades. Its just assumed, even when she tries to lay out a serious thing about herself to them.
Thank you Cheyenne! Haven't seen the video yet but your analyses are always super interesting, I really love your videos
thank you and thank you so much for your support :D
@@CheyenneLin my pleasure!:)
Finding your channel has been so cathartic for me. You are verbalizing feelings I’ve had for decades but could never find the words to explain. Thank you.
Another thoughtful and very interesting video! Loved this one so much since I grew up watching the show and Penny was always my favourite, but abandoned it in the third of the show since I couldn't get past or ignore any longer the mysoginy sorrounding her, the plot always seemed to punish her and its awesome to look back through the video to all those elements that always seemed a little off but I was too young to properly identify why. Great work!
everytime you make an film/telly analysis it rlly makes me think
I was very young when I started watching BBT and didn't notice many of its flaws that stop me from enjoying it as much now. I always really liked Penny and identified with her (mostly because I was the only girl in my Physics class and friend group in college, finding myself in similar situations) . Her character had so much depth and potential that could have been explored better by a more respectful writer. I honestly only rewatch bbt episodes for penny 😂
Thanks!
thank YOU!
I am glad you did this video. You pointed out what I saw in only 2 or half watched episodes but didn't know why I just didn't like it. . Lol I am one of the few people who didn't watch the show. I just couldn't place why it always made me uncomfortable. But now I know, so Thank you
Thank you! Penny basically having to apologize for being pretty and desired by the guys was SO infuriating.
I got frustrated with BBT and stopped watching purely because of Penny. That they stuck her at a restaurant job for that long is frustrating, as it puts her obviously at a disadvantage in comparison. The comparison is really what got to me.
Pennys career glow up was the one genuine thing that made me happy. Also how sheldon sees penny as a loving mother-like figure, unlike his siblings who were mostly unnecessarily mean to him
If I had to constantly portray all of this at the expense at my and the character's image, I, too,would be like Cuoco and ask them to REALLY pay up for the privilege.
Thank you so much for making this video, I can’t tell you how relieved I am to see that someone else feels the same way as the sexism in the show and how that same kind of misogyny is seen in how people talk about and villainize Penny and Bernadette is so disheartening and frustrating and it's upsetting to see people constantly saying how ‘mean’ and ‘rude’ Penny is and that she ‘belittles’ Leonard and ‘takes advantage’ of him and the guys which is so backwards as, to me, anyway, the way the men treat her is often disgusting and so disrespectful as Sheldon continually insults her intelligence and everything about her and tries to literally ‘train’ her despite her being so caring and patient with him, Raj objectifies her and is so rude even when she’s the only one supporting him and Howard sexually harasses her and gets an apology from her?! It’s also so true how unfairly she’s treated and the position she’s in as she’s shamed, judged and/or guilted for everything she does and made to feel that she 'owes' them (she's somehow shamed for putting out and for not putting out?!) and isn’t supported despite being a supportive, kind person and even when they ‘do things for her’, it’s never just to be nice but to get her to sleep with them as Leonard makes super clear in S5 after their break up.
Did you get a new microphone? Your new videos are easier to listen to. Thanks for increasing your production quality!
To me, the fact that they gave her a baby at the end was the worst end to her arc!!! She ended up doing what she didn't want to because she was too stupid to use properly birth control or she wanted to please Lenard. I can't decide which one is worse but, the outcome goes against her wishes.
In depth as always
glad you enjoyed it :)
I don’t know Raj was often pretty awful to his girlfriends. I do agree Raj does have some great qualities but he can be pretty awful.
Idk how else to put it but your videos make me really happy. Like as long as these discussions are happening, maybe the world isn't as bad as it feels.
oooooh Cheyenne always brings the hot takes!
I remember watching this show when it aired and it reflecting my own internalized misogyny so I thought Penny was "a bad person" as it was clearly shown in the show you were meant to view her that way (I don't miss the 00's mindsets one bit). But I never finished watching all the series, you've displayed all the issues really well here (as you always do) and it's soo disgusting seeing how she was repeatedly punished like this by not only Lorre but the writers and perpetuated mindsets that deeply affected the teens growing up with shows like this. The way the body shaming happens to Penny, too? Wtf. And the forced pregnancy? Ugggghhhh
Nah, I dont think we were meant to view Penny as a bad person. Otherwise, she would have been less funny, less relatable, portrayed as undesirable, boring, etc. I personally liked her realistic portray of having traditional male and female qualities/skills/interests, as these stereotypes still persist very strongly in American society. Also how she changed from being an impulse shopper and being bad at handling her money, to a resposible woman who wants to pay her debt by staying in a job she doesnt love (the last part isnt that great, but its relatable which makes her relatable to the viewer as well)
No one is more misogynist (or racist for that matter) than Hollywood. It’s why I’m constantly perplexed that we take our talking points about these issues from them. They are point blank the worst possible community to look to for advice on being better at such issues.
it's true, but hollywood greatly impacts the media people consume and the behaviours and ideology people embody because it's no secret people mimic fictional realties and stories depicted by the media so it's understandable that it would be used to shine light on common issues as they tend to feed into them. I'm not sure if what i said made sense its 2 am where i am but i hope it did.
@@maddyb7899 Sure. It just so often gets told the other way around--like it's the common people who are the most misogynist and racist and Hollywood is reflecting society. No. Hollywood is so much more entrenched and they are the ones largely spreading disease and then asking common people to take responsibility and live in less trusting society as a result.
Honestly you are on to something there. I there is a lot of hollow performative activism stuff in shows and movies. I think this is what some people lable as «too woke», not understanding how some conservatives use that term. Like they pick up on the fact that something isnt right, but are unable to verbalize precisely what it is. It kinda muddies the discourse unfortunately, as I think a lot of people would agree if we all understood what we are each trying to say to each other. Anyway this also means that Hollywood can get away with their performative activism by blaiming their audience for not being woke enough. It’s a mess. Point is Hollywood gets away with pretending they arent racist and sexist a lot because we atre too buisy fighting each other.
@@MissCaraMint Oh exactly! Which is why I think the single greatest message out there right now is that our enemy is NOT our neighbor or another middle class/lower class stiff who has far more in common with us than any celebrity or politician. No matter what other people think, they have a reason they came to it and we can gain so much more ground by understand why and how and being on the same team.
Well, that and that all elections should be ranked choice voting:D
Big Bang and HIMYM have aged so badly. Big Bang 100% relied on gross punch down comedy. HIMYM is bad for it too but even worse the dad is literally telling sex stories to his teenage children...including never ending stories about how their uncle Barney is a predator. But the weed is a "sandwich" and he changes the word shit....
HIMYF is much better. It's not 100% clear the main person will only date white people from the beginning and it''s an adult child not teenagers.
This is why I never watched this show. It’s garbage filler television. That being said, I love your content and I enjoyed the video
never clicked on a vid so fast, i love ur commentary and am super excited to hear ur take on this show
I had stopped watching this show pretty early on for these exact reasons. I didn't like how Penny was treated as being less than the guys because she wasn't into science and Leonard's obsession with Penny always seemed creepy. I hadn't picked up on the fact that the guys were all older than Penny, I thought they were around the same age give or take a few years.
Well, I think the show "Young Sheldon" gave Sheldon's date of birth as Feb. 26, 1980, making him about 6 to 8 years older than Penny. Probably Leonard's around the same age.
Always love your commentary! I adored this show the year it came out but as I entered high school it just felt icky to me. I wasn’t able to put my finger on it at the time so I appreciate someone who clearly does have some fondness for these characters giving an analysis of its shortcomings without outright hating on it.
This is the same Chuck Lorre who created Two and Half Men, it’s a partner show for The Big Bang Theory and equally repugnant and threads the same misogynistic and women shaming. The cool girl description sounds like a pick me. I used to work with right wing religious pick me types who love this show, and desperate to marry I now see why.
I still think Two and a Half men ws way worse, just blatantly for both women and how much it punched down on effeminite men and single dads.
Wow.👏🏽👏🏽
I never thought of how the focus is always on Penny using her looks to make ends meet and not on the guy with money and has the power in the situation. He is the one that consents to this and unlike Penny is not in a dangerous situation where he is dependent on someone liking him for his looks, in order to survive.
I mean as far as her physical masculinity being “called out” by the guys…it’s more like she’s masculine in the same way a Marvel or DC heroine is. That’s why she’s still seen as hot. (Like comic book Wonder Woman) We’ve all seen how much bigger (not overweight) or masculine a woman can look and she ain’t that. It’s a slight masculinity that they still find attractive especially given her other physical attributes.
As a former “Nice Guy,” I… am so uncomfortable with how common the “nice guy” trope is in media.
“You say you want a nice guy, what about me? I’m a nice guy”
“Ohh let me do all these super nice things for her, so she’ll realize I’m a great guy”
Like- no….. not only is nobody entitled to another human being, but… romance can’t… be forced. You can’t force it just because it “makes sense” to others. It has to feel right between everybody in the relationship
In fact, off topic (ish), but I’m tired of forced romances in general. We need more platonic friendships in shows and movies. We need more “guy and girl genuinely help each other as friends, and nobody expects them to date”
Ahh… interesting, I made this comment when I was only a few minutes in, but around 10:30, the narrator comments that their relationship does not seem forced 🤔
Been so long since I’ve watched the show, maybe I’m misremembering, but idk 🤷♂️
Also… as a man who actively has zero interest in having children…. I’m deeply offended how often women are expected to have children, in real life and in TV
@@slowrunn3r88 Penny and Leonard's relationship is a atter of opinion and interpretation I guess. But I agree with your other comment that romance can't be forced. As a woman even I sorta pressure myself into dating the 'nice guy'. I've had a few occasions where a guy has asked me out and I wasn't really interested but I'd tell myself, "Oh but he says he likes you and calls you pretty. He seems like a nice guy and you want to be the nice girl so giving him a chance would be the nice thing to do! Even though you're not really interested, you can't be too picky. Be flattered you have 'a nice guy' interested at all!" Just leaves me feeling stressed by the situation and depressed before we even really date, like I already know my future will require settling if I follow the mentality that 'someone is better than no one'. This of course doesn't make for a good start between me and the guy. I don't know the secret to chemistry and romance, but simply being nice and available isn't it.
@@fangirl7914 right. And yeah, you really shouldn’t have to date the guy just because “he’s nice.” People also often tell me “you’re not perfect, y’know. If you don’t settle, you’ll be forever alone.” I can’t speak for others, but I feel a loooooot more lonely and depressed when I’m with someone I’m not happy with, than when I’m by myself
Also, if you date a guy “because he’s nice,” when nothing is there, that’s not fair to him. And please note, I’m not saying this to attack you. I trust that on some level, you already knew this.
*sigh* I just wish there was a way to find the perfect balance between “exciting/thrilling” and “kind and caring.” It often feels like you can only choose one or the other, but I refuse to settle for one simply because I can’t find “the balance.”
The Penny we met in the beginning was great, she was a free spirit who was genuinely interested in getting to know the boys and not only wanted to see things from their perspective, but also wanted to help them broaden their horizons and show them experiences they missed out on growing up, like going to parties, have them listen to new music and even introduce them to things they never took interest in like sports, fashion, pop culture, etc. Great character, right off the bat, but it all starts to fall flat given how Leonard, even in the first episode, just wanted to be with her because she's hot and will boost his reputation as a man and we, the audience, are supposed to root for this. I get that it's supposed to be a love story between the two of them and obviously he needs to have a physical attraction to her, but the show would have benefitted greatly from Leonard finding her attractive in the begining but not being being obsessed by her looks, like Howard and Raj and doesnt start to become infatuated with her until they get to know eachother more and see each other for who they really are. He's the only one to see her as not just a kind, curious and confident person, but also someone with flaws, someone whose not book smart, isn't very introspective and is afraid to be alone and she sees him not only as a smart, caring, friend, but also someone with a ton of insecurites, has trouble setting boundaries, and struggles with expressing himself. Instead Leonard is no different from every other guy Penny has dated in the past, except for he denies it.
The idea of “nerds” cough cough incels writing a fantasy show where they’re finally winning in life is so cringe. No matter how much money or power you have, if you’re an incel you’ll always be an incel. Some guys are physically attractive and just horrible socially and mentally towards women but they blame all these factors besides their personality
Girls do it as well...
Why do you think twilight exists???
@@javierlopez9789 Twilight is shit and cringe but is no where near as an Incel fantasy
I hated that they gave her a child in the end. Honestly I thought the compromise that was suggested as some point with Leonard giving his sperm for another couple baby and he and Penny staying without children would have been the best way to act, but no, it had to be Penny changing her mind... It is even more annoying because childree people need representation.
I know a couple who doesn't want children. They both moved in a new town and one of the first question the woman gets asked at her new job, by colleagues that she knows from only a few hours, was : "now that you settle down, you will be having children ?" Like, it was an evidence. And she didn't explain that they don't want at all as she knew she'd have to justify herself or she'll hear "you'll change your mind".
If there were characters in mainstream shows that don't want children and stick to it, it would be easier for my friend.
Great analysis! I agree with you on pretty much everything
I will say, though, that up until season 12 Penny hasn't said a word about not wanting to have children. In fact, in season 9, Leonard brings that up and she is into them having kids, with the only reservation being that she doesn't want that at that time, but later on. She seems happy about the idea.
Then suddenly in season 12 she doesn't want to have children and they act as if the previous conversation never happened.
Then this pregnancy reveal at the end without showing us any conversation between Penny and Leonard about it. With barely anything about how it was for her.
And you know why it happened like this?
Well, because the whole non-parenting plot was merely a plot device, in order for the writers to make the pregnancy reveal a surprise. They were always planning on Leonard and Penny having kids in the end (to come full circle with the "Smart and beautiful babies" phrase from the first episode).
So it was not really the character of Penny who was underserved here. It was actual women who do not want to have kids. Which may be even worse. This sensitive issue was treated with disrespect and as if these women are just gonna change their minds (as happened not only with Penny but also Bernadette).
THANK YOU! I couldn't remember the season but I remembered the episode. No one else seems to recall they had a conversation that made it clear they both wanted kids "at some point" it was never about not wanting kids. Then it's like the writers completely forgot (as did the audience) and made this a conflict solely because they were running out of ideas. It's so unfair because in-universe of course it would be a shock to Leonard that she doesn't want kids if they already discussed it but everyone is acting like it didn't happen and it made me so mad!
@@olandir It was also brought up in the season 11 episode where the 2 of them are discussing what to write in a letter to Leonard's brother about what's going on in their lives. He says something about discussing buying a house or having kids. She says she wants all those things someday.
Shows like these are often pretty toxic but the overplayed laughs trick you into dismissing it.
Haha, Alcoholisem, Rape, Toxic stereotyps, fatphobia, SA, mocking on all sides
I love your TBBT videos. Maybe you can do one on Raj?
girl I've only watched two of your videos but they're so well articulated and thought out, props to you! Already subscribed ^^
Tbh I’ve always hated how the “humour” of BBT demonized Penny for just being a woman. Never mind that we’re not supposed to judge the adult men as adults, give them a pass for being emotionally stunted and overlook the fact that, in spite of this, they’re doing a lot better than Penny in a world where pretty privilege supposedly gets you everywhere. Penny spent more emotional currency babying her “friends” than they ever repaid with free stuff - a therapist in Penny’s position would’ve made a killing off of helping them, and wouldn’t have had to put up with the constant harassment on top. But the worst thing about it all is how Kaley Cuoco being a good sport about everything irl - likely because she felt replaceable - set her up for more bs later on in the series. Before better, Penny deserved good.
I never realized why I didn't like this show until now. I could never pinpoint why I hated it just the overall vibe. Thanks for explaining things
This show!😫
Somehow I'm sure I've watched almost every episode inspite of not liking a moment of this show, it didn't matter whose house I was, they were watching it, even family abroad!
Nobody *deserves* someone else, this show is built on cliches in our minds from nerdy underdog who (don't) deserve to win against someone popular, bigger, richer, finer etc, which ties in with every guy projection.
I remember it being so obvious that Penny was nothing more than objectification who wasn't going to get the lead character treatment even though the entire plot is 'dorks and the hot chick', so she should be as important, why couldn't we see more of her day to day life at the cafe, acting and auditioning? Why doesn't a confident, socially competent, working, pretty and done up young woman who moved to pursue her career have an active social life? Where are her friends? Where are her family? I hadn't even realised she had no surname.
These guys were obnoxious, ironically enough the most outwardly obnoxious - Sheldon, happens to be the least because of his honesty and lack of ulterior motive.
Leonard is textbook niceguy, a real snake who's pretty much leader of the pack but gets to quietly steap back, apologize about his friends and look like the 'normal' one.
Raj and Howard are the b team reduced to casual stereotypes.
The 'other girls' were there simply to give the most repellent and goofy of the leads love interests, their academics replaced personality and like Penny and any other passing woman, they behaved as if they were babysitting these men. There was no reason to force these women into being Penny's only friends other than to give them more screen time and trick people into seeing character and story development, but they're entirely dependent on their other half to stick around.
This show did great yet it probably would have fit better in the 90s.
In hands of competent writers it could be cute little story about fundamentaly defferent people figuring out they like each other and wanna make it work. But writers were folks who think "nerd say something nerdy" and "people being dicks to each other" is high of comedy.
@@petrfedor1851 exactly, they could have bothered with their female lead in general, have the nerds be less pitiful and mean spirited and have more who don't fit into either of these supposed polar opposites. What exactly made this woman equivalent to the school popular girl and what made these guys the textbook nerds? The dialogue sounds like they put in 'geek, nerd, dork etc' in urban dictionary and ripped off the results to fill silence.
I had so many problems with Big Bang Theory. In addition to the misogyny and my frustration of how Penny and the other female characters are not able to give the male protagonists a wake up call on how back their toxicity was without looking like a “villain”, it also reinforces so many toxic tropes of nerd culture. As Pop Culture Detective explained in his video Adorkable Misogyny, Lorre made nerds as people to laugh *at*, not laugh *with*. The show obviously didn’t care about the depth of nerd culture but just referencing it for the sake of mockery. That was my big gripe of why I never supported the show - I felt like we were long past low jokes like that and the toxic masculinity (internalized and external) was so excessive. If they actually mocked how ridiculous the latter was, it would be a different story; But it was reinforced by taking away the gravity of the situation.
The nerd community has been a very supportive place for me even with its internal problems. Big Bang Theory looks like a fossil due to the shifts that were happening in nerd culture during its original run. Even STEM fields have a lot of these issues but even that’s been changing. I hope BBT gets left as an artifact of its time and it never comes back.
this was so great! your thumbnails are so good too!
Thank you so much!!
The fact she had to endure those guys for years
She hung out with them by choice!
Yeah that pregnancy reveal in the finale was a gut punch.
Fantastic video! The Big Bang Theory is so unnecessarily cruel to so many of its characters, and Penny seems to get the brunt of it.
Wow they hate penny lol