Or to help his brothers mow the neighbors yard and he ends up fighting them and trying to destroy every blade of grass while they want to do a good job.
This is, in my opinion, the most accurate portrait of God, creation, and Lucifer (the morning star) that fell to become Satan (the accuser) Lucifer was chief among all angels, a beautiful turned defiant such as Melkor or Feanor. Never had I heard such a beautiful allegory for the scriptures regarding creation and Lucifer until I read the first chapter of the Silmarillion. Perhaps that's why it's a harder and deeper chapter for some, it's spiritual words and ideas, metaphysical.
Yes! I think Christians today are so lost Basically their focus is "obey whats in the bible or you will go to hell" they dont care about the complexities of existing and thinking about eternity while also being mortal. While not complete in the sense that, we dont know what "the apocalypse" Dagor Dagorath, would be and what would happen there after for eternity. Its much more comprehensive approach that tries to honestly explore this subjects, without wanting to create religions, control populations, etc To me Tolkien's work do so much better at trying to understand evil and immortality God and the soul, than religious do today. The true essence of the message of God and the prophets.
@@EruannaArtebecause so many who are "religious" read selected Sacred Scripture through a self-interpretative lens. This leads to heresy and that leads to many, MANY other issues. Tolkien, being a Catholic, was FAR closer to understanding the Sacred Scriptures than your average Bible-thumping Christian. This is why the story of Illuvatar does such a nice job as an allegory to Genesis, even if the author intended no such allegory. Even as a Catholic, I keep going back to the Silmarillion and I find how similarly beautiful the penmanship of Tolkien is to the penmanship of the Holy Spirit through Moses. Naturally, Genesis is more beautiful but Tolkien was given a great grace to use his pen to describe something so similar to actual history.
@@scottbrickner4980 Your Catholic arrogance is ironic, considering you're on the team that wholesale invented the papacy when nothing of its like was condoned by Jesus or the Apostles, and Peter himself would have disavowed the institution.
When reading that Melkor searched the void places for the Imperishable Flame, I imagined he was searching the innumerable stars and galaxies of the Universe beyond Arda for planets supporting life, but never found any.
Not really it was more so that he wanted what his father had, the power of creation, although I do wonder if Eru Illuvatar had known what Melkor really wanted, would he have approached it differently?
This is it right here. And the fallen Maia who joined his cause were fire spirits who despised the boring Enya they played in Valinor all the time and wanted to rock out with Morgoth in Middle Earth.
Hey DG, I would love to see a longer video sometime similar to the Entire History of the Rohirrim, but it is about the Dunlendings. You could go into their kinship to the Haladin and Pre-numenoreans, their lives in Enedwaith, Calenardhon, Isengard, West-march and Dunland, and their relations withs Sauron, Saruman, Gondor, Rohan, and even Stoor-hobbits and exiles Dwarves.
On this subject, I dunno if you saw it on your last vid but I was wondering if you could do a video on why Eru intervened against Sauron but not against Morgoth.
I'm going to observe a potential flaw in this analysis. The only source we have on what Melkor was like early on is from the other Valar. We known that the other Valar are also flawed beings, and in particular Manwë is unable to conceive that Melkor might have been insincere in his repentance during his chaining. Much like Sauron became unable to understand beings with good motives by the time of the War of the Ring, Manwë was unable to understand beings with evil motives. I suggest therefore that the information that the good Valar told the Elves, and that the Elves passed on to Bilbo, was likely biased or otherwise incomplete. Setting the record straight, this is not an attempt to excuse Melkor for what he became; by the time that the Elves awoke at Cuivienen, he was already completely evil. However, I do suggest that the reasons why that happened might more complicated than the version that we have in the Silmarillion, and that it is possible that the other Valar may have, perhaps unintentionally, helped usher him down the road to villainy.
I thought I was going to read, "Morgoth is actually the good guy", for a minute there. You had me in the first half No jokes though I agree 100%, if they couldn't actually understand Evil then they wouldn't really be able to speak to Morgoth's intentions too well, especially before the Elves, Men, Dwarves, etc. awoke because there's no "lesser being" for us to see Morgoth through, just objectively alien deities fighting over the world with the loser being the bad guy
Saw the idea that Melkor and Nienna were designed for one another but he refused to have a partner designed for him by another. Or maybe this is some headcannon i saw somewhere.
You're correct; one of JRR's versions does have Nienna down as a partner for Melkor. I have a distinct feeling that she'd have cried a good many more tears in that scenario...
The important thing is CHOICE. Eru granted choice even though he knew what Melkor would do. But he still granted it to him, and didn't make them all robots to just obey
He deliberately created a being, fully aware that it would bring about misery. The notion of free will becomes irrelevant when the outcome is already known with certainty. Therefore, either he intentionally introduced evil into his world, or he lacks omniscience
He also denied the one thing Melkor wanted most, yet he let the others do the very thing that Melkor wanted, rather than coming to understand his child, especially since he viewed Melkor as his child, he neglected him, told him what he wanted was evil, despite Melkor being so much like him.
Melkor reminds me of a spoiled child who was given much but always wanted what others had. His main sin is that he wanted to usurp Eru Illuvatar's power. Later Sauron also wanted to be the primary god of Middle Earth. Both Melkor and Sauron wanted to steal what was not rightfully theirs.
I always felt that Eru decided to put the darker elements of himself into one being instead of bestowing it equally among the offspring of his thought. I mean he does straight up tell Melkor that there's nothing he is or does that doesn't have its uttermost source in him (paraphrasing but you get the idea)
I think the same could he said for the Judo-Christian God and Satan, that is if you take the 'Omni' virtues of God to be true. He couldn't create a being that would betray him or a evil being if he was all powerful, all-knowing, and all loving.
Eru has no darkness, not one bit, an omniscient and omnipresent God can only be perfectly orderly. Because of free will Melkor corrupted elements he was given by Eru.
@@wulfheort8021 That makes no sense. Why can an omniscient and omnipresent (not omnipotent?) God only be orderly? If Eru created Melkor and Eru is omnipotent and omniscient, there is nothing, NOTHING, about Melkor that is not made by Eru. If Melkor then is evil, that evil is made quite specifically by Eru. So either: Eru is not omniscient (he does not know Melkor will turn to evil). Eru is not omnipotent (he knows Melkor will turn to evil but did not create it and is powerless to stop it). Eru is not good. Erus view of what is good is incomprehensible to mortals. From a more philosophical standpoint the latter point is probably the most interesting. "Can an omnipotent god create a rock so heavy that the god cannot lift it?". The answer is a trick. There can be no omnipotent god, because if he cannot create that rock he is not omnipotent, and if he cannot lift it he is not omnipotent. Unless the answer is that we humans cannot comprehend omnipotence. And if we can't comprehend and omnipotent god, how can we comprehend that gods morality? A simpler view may be: "Your parents send you to bed early for your own good, even though you want to stay up late and game. You hate/dislike them for it because you don't understand why they do it". Thus Melkors actions may in fact be good, but Elves, Men, even the Valar do not understand how it can be. Only Eru understands why/how those actions are ultimately good. Or Eru is a prick. Probably the simpler answer.
Illuvatar knew exactly what Morgoth was going to become and he let it happen. It’s possible he wanted the inhabitants of Middle Earth to have an evil to face.
There is a passage in the Silmarillion saying that the exile of the Noldor allowed their story to be greater, but at great cost. I believe that without Morgoth, the world would be a perfect bliss without any adventure and nothing worthy of being a story. Eru Ilúvatar needed an antagonizing force to push the Elves and Men to do great deeds. Morgoth was destined to turn evil from the very beginning.
thats an uncaring god if ever there was one. basically he made it so melkor was doined to suffer just because it was in his plan. a living conscious soul should never ne used lije thst ir made just to be bad and ultimately to be defeated and always suffer in torment
@@viper-the-great I agree that make Eru an uncaring god, but it is not different from actual religions. I have yet to find a decent god in current human religions.
For the first few pages of the Ainulindule I appreciated Melkor immensely! Who of us doesn't want to have independence from our parents? To do something that is unique and of our own? Melkor viewed Eru as pretty overbearing, which I understand. His actions, though, and destructive tendencies flipped the character pretty quickly.
I think I read or heard somewhere (which I think was credible and stuck in my mind) that in the early versions of the story, Eru actually praises Melkor for his daring and creativity at first
@@saeedshahbazian9889 oh I didn't know that tidbit!! Really cool. Melkor really wasn't all that evil at first. Just resentment and malice unaddressed made him worse overtime.
See, Melkor was still perfectly capable of creating things as long as he remained within the Will of Eru. It was his desire to be God and his resentment at not having an even more important part that led him to rebel.
Rings of Powers of all things made a really good point with the scene between Durin and his father. It brought the idea that Morgoth wanted to follow his own path in life that his father didn't let him have. This in turn filled him with spite and hatred for everything Eru had created and a desire to destroy it. Morgoth is basicaly a spoiled child with daddy issues on a grand cosmic scale.
I believe this Simpsons quote from "Bart Gets an Elephant" describes Melkor best; "Well, Valar are a lot like people, Mrs. Simpson. Some of them act badly because they’ve had a hard life or have been mistreated. But, like people, some of them are just jerks. Stop that Melkor."
Aule was that close of falling as well but he was saved him is his greatest quality, humility, he created the dwarves for the joy of creating to be part of eru's creation not to contest or replace eru's creation, this is also why he's the greatest smith in Ëa, he realizes working with others will result in something that none of them could make on thier own, that's what morgoth really envied
Actually Melkor didn't _turn to_ evil but he kind of _invented_ it, due to being humbled by Iluvatar. And even after it, his name wasn't Morgoth until Féanor cursed him after him having killed Féanors father Finwe and stolen the Silmarils.
But the thing is, there is no story if Melkor doesn't turn evil. A perfect world where Melkor remains disciplined and respectful is a reality that provides no discord for the Children of Illuvatar to grow through. Or maybe, had Melkor been good, it might have elicited jealousy from Aule and others Ainur. Maybe everything would turn around, with Melkor being the one benevolent Ainur against a horde of Ainur gripped by the inverse vices of their own talents.
Your interpretation. Morgoth was not created to give depth. If that was his purpose Illuvatar would be unjust for punishing him for accomplishing his purpose. No Morgoth was created for other creative, good purposes, but he freely rejected that and went his own way. That Illuvatar's will is triumphant in the end does not mean it is exactly as He wants, rather His power is simply greater.
@@jamess7576 I have always struggled with that concept, both in real-world theology and in Tolkien's sub-creation (which is, after all, heavily influenced by his Christian faith). In the Silmarillion, Illuvatar asserts to the Ainur that, in the end, everything will be seen to serve His purpose, even the discord introduced by Melkor. From this we can at least conclude that Illuvatar had foreseen all that Melkor would do, allowed for it, and incorporated it in His plan. But, doesn't that make Illuvatar responsible for Melkor's actions? After all, Illuvatar's existence was prior to everything and everyone; He comes first, and therefore He has the freedom to create or not create Melkor. In judging that a world with Melkor is preferable (better? fuller? more perfect?) to a world without him, wasn't Illuvatar complicit in the evil Melkor would do? And if He had no option but to allow it, how could this be reconciled with Him being all-powerful?
@@Nikolas_Davis no its more as if illuvatar was a composer who gave an orchestra a song to play. If one of the instruments rebels and plays a different song it will be discordant. but illuvatar was such a skilled creator he made a new music based on the rebelling music to make an even better song.
I've said it before, but since all matter has Morgoth element in it, if we trip and stub our toe on a rock Morgoth considers it a good day because he hates us as a group and as individuals. Just a monomaniacal hate with insane pettiness.
As a Catholic, Tolkien uses Morgoth as a Satan figure. What causes his fall & ours is pride, pride & more pride. Like you said, a doubling down, a rebellion, becoming more insular & self absorbed. Of course, the way out is humility but he was never going to do that. It’s interesting to note that it was the humble hobbits & the selflessness of Aragorn, Gimli etc… that eventually defeated him.
Morgoth was defeated by the Valar at the end of the First Age; hobbits, Aragorn, Gimli etc. are end of Third Age characters. Are you confusing Morgoth with Sauron?
@@gillianlovell9578Sauron in reality has the same flaws as Morgoth, so the point stands. But yes ofcourse the fellowship and the whole 3rd age was about defeating Sauron, not Morgoth
Nah, what caused the fall of Morgoth(or Lucifer) was Eru Ilúvatar(respectively god), which basically wrote down all of this would happen. Morgoth actually never was the evil guy, because he never had a choice. And only choices can be evil. So the actual big bad is Eru Ilúvatar - because he was in control of what happens. He created Morgoth and killed him just for funsies - together with thousands of humans, elves, hobbits and so on. And then sets some brainwashing stories in the world about how much he loved them and so on.
Good video. Although, I'd counter by saying that Melkor/Morgoth was ALWAYS "evil." To me, it seems plausible (even probable) that Eru intentionally instilled Melkor with the raw aspects of bitter envy and hate in order to contrast with more noble intentions (compassion, hope, love). Only by overcoming adversity can one truly appreciate peace and comfort.
Morgoth wanted true free will, free from Illuvatar. The moment Illuvatar tells him that "All your actions are to my greater design", aka "You are my puppet and have no free will" is the moment he chooses to destroy everything else. This is also why he hates the children of Illuvatar so much, because they DO get true free will. People also neglect how Illuvatar is very much the true villain of the whole story. Either what he said was true and Morgoth was just his sock puppet, in which case he's obviously the one responsible, or he was cruel and lying to push Morgoth down that path and then not preventing it.
Am I the only one that sees morgoth as completing the will of illuvatar? The world is the way it is because eru wanted it that way. Arda untainted is a pipe dream that was never supposed to be. Hopefully I’m making sense, I’m not really able to fully flesh my ideas out on a mobile phone.
Good point. Similar to how I think Judas was actually carrying out Jesus' will with his betrayal - and he was just the only followers sufficiently loyal to help Jesus accomplish God's plan of sacrifice. All of the others would try to stop Jesus from doing it. Sometimes a fall is part of the Grand plan.
It's not the way Eru wants it, but Eru is putting aside his own desires for his own creation. God is neutral and upon making a decision for his creations, become biased and therefore an unholy creator as morgoth(Satan) had become. This is basically the most Catholic version of the demiurge you could get too lol
Eru set Morgoth up to become what he did, it's even flat out stated that all Morgoth's actions are to Eru's greater design. Eru despite Tolkien not intending it, is technically the overarching villain of the entire saga because all his creation and their actions derive from him. As Solidus once ironically said, "Pawns can never become players,"
Imagine being cursed with seeing all paths of the future but not which one will actually happen. Now we know why god is all knowing but won't intervene. It has no clue what to actually stop.
An omniscient creator deity is utterly incompatible with the notion of free will. People who can't understand this problem tend to be Abrahamists. Eru Illuvatar created everything with full knowledge of how it would play out. He could have chosen to create a universe where Melkor never fell. Ergo Melkor became Morgoth by design.
True and except for Men as they can live outside the song of the ainur. I always took this as to mean that humanity were the ultimate wild cards because there destiny was strictly there own where as everyone else was tied to a script of sorts
being stuck alone in a timeless void with an absentee father would definitely make any being turn into a murderous rebellious rampage i'm guessing being the first being created, he has acquired almost all of Illuvatar's traits, both good and evil side. and when Eru saw that giving a powerful being a personality and complicated emotion would result into a disaster. that may be why the Elves and Men were weaker by leagues compared to the Ainur. that's why most of the Ainur were one dimensional force of natures except those special ainur that developed complex personalities like Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and Balrogs
People who read the Silmarillion and think Melkor was the good guy the misunderstood hero are the same people who think Lucifer was the good guy in Paradise Lost.
I think in his mind he was the chad. Sauron and Saruman wanted to improve the creations of someone else, the Morgoth fella wanted to have his own creations, it is like creating reproductions or own artwork, or modder vs dev, who is superior, at least in their own mind?
Is morgoth illuvatar because who made illuvatar? Like Tolkien creating yet taking from previous stories to make his world etc Just a pondering I have but is there any truth in it I dunno Morgoth was illuvatar opinion of himself as the sole creator etc set there like a reminder of his own image only he can see because he’s god etc
"He truly is a piece of shit... whereas sauron and saruman thought they could actually improve the world." Someone get this guy a job at Sparknotes, cause he just summarized Morgoth and put thousands of years worth of actions into context in a single sentence.
I always thought that Melkor's evil turn was scripted by Eru, because the God needed a villain for his grand story. It would have been cool with me as a stort-narrative thing, but the fact that he gave his Ainur Free Will seems cooler from THEIR point of view. Edit: Also, the fact that I identify with Melkor (Morgoth not so much) greatly is one of the reasons I am not a (full) christian.
Another aspect of Morgoth’s character that contributed was his desire for order. Not evil by itself, but he disliked how much freedom the other Ainur had to “do their own thing” as they were creating. In his short-sightedness (& pride) Morgoth believed this was simply chaos that needed to be subdued and controlled, rather than the birthplace of true beauty in creation.
I'm always disappointed the way these channels on Tolkien keep it in a distant land we site see with them being our tour guide. It'd be like visiting a cathedral to count the seats and learn the names of the statues but completely missing the point of the reason the building was made.
I disagree with this. The Valar discussed things with each other - if they were mindless slaves they wouldn't need to. And the only Ainu we know well is Gandalf, who certainly has free will. He debates courses of action with himself, is frightened of the temptation to use the ring to do good with. All three Maiar for which we have narrative detail (Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron) are shown to have doubts and inner debate - these aren't something that a creature with no free will would have or need. The Ainur clearly know what is expected of them, particularly Melkor (who understands Illuvatar's mind better than most), but he chooses not to act accordingly. Even the ones who stay within the guidelines don't know the future, but if they were mindlessly following instructions it wouldn't matter if they did. There is something of the predestination paradox here - can *anything* be said to have free will if Illuvatar knows the entire future and what every being will ever decide before they act? Yet the characters clearly think they have, and act accordingly.
@@patriarch7237 It's just the Ainur that don't have free will. Eru specifically gave it to all the races on Middle Earth but not them. Debating and speaking has nothing to do with free will if Eru made them to do that. I'm not saying he simply knows what they will do and has planned for it, I'm saying he created them to do exactly as they're doing. They're following a script they don't know about, although Melkor is told basically that. They're all aspects of Eru, not individuals.
I dislike the idea he had free will based on the words said after the song. It was already in him, and therefore melkor technically doesnt have free will, very contradictory, just like christianity's free will
@@istari0 None of them had free will. Nothing suggests that. Iluvitar explicitly states that nothing they do, including Melkor, can be anything other than what he intended. That's not free will.
Morgoth was not evil, he committed evil acts but he wasn't evil. What Morgoth was, was a child. A petulant, self-centred, brat of a child who believed his every whim should be catered for, and his acts of evil, as profound as they were, were temper tantrums of a petulant god, a child kicking his brother's sandcastle over because it was better, and not caring whose eyes the sand lands in. He was petty, immature, and jealous, and the free peoples suffered for it.
I feel some sympathy for Morgoth. Yeah, he reacts like a petulant angry spoiled child, but he is indeed correct to be angry. Eru made him a tool, he made them all a tool. Little more than servants. Morgoth wanted to be his own man, captain of his own destiny. Eru laid the smackdown on him, and made it clear that you are nothing without me. Morgoth decided to be angry and spiteful, but can you blame him? Eru gave him will and independence...under the condition that he does what he is told for all time. Huh, if that is what he wanted, he should not have given him will and independence.
From the Ainulindalë: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will." Well, we know what Morgoth chose to do with his powers.
@@istari0 When Melkor kept disrupting the harmony, Eru scolded him, saying that there is nothing in you that does not originate from me. whatever you do, I will use it to make my creation even more beautiful than before. This is not an exact quote, but it is clear that Eru only pretended to give free will to his creations. "You can do whatever you like, so long as you color inside these lines I made for you" That is basically what he is saying. Melkor was set up, the game was rigged from the start. Even the way LOTR ended! Golem finally got the ring inside mount doom...but then he slipped and fell in the lava. Hmm, Eru pushed him. The dirty bastard cheated.
@@maximvs272 Giving free will, but then not allowing freedom...seems rather foolish. I am not surprised there was a rebellion. Not with Eru and middle-earth, and not with God and the Bible. This is why I know there is a part of the story, with the Bible that is, which we do not know of.
Morgoth was like an angsty teen asked to mow the lawn and out of spite he also mowed down the flowers as well.
Or to help his brothers mow the neighbors yard and he ends up fighting them and trying to destroy every blade of grass while they want to do a good job.
He wants to violate the First Law of Thermodynamics (the ability to create and annihilate). And Eru was like "lol no"
This is, in my opinion, the most accurate portrait of God, creation, and Lucifer (the morning star) that fell to become Satan (the accuser)
Lucifer was chief among all angels, a beautiful turned defiant such as Melkor or Feanor.
Never had I heard such a beautiful allegory for the scriptures regarding creation and Lucifer until I read the first chapter of the Silmarillion.
Perhaps that's why it's a harder and deeper chapter for some, it's spiritual words and ideas, metaphysical.
Yes! I think Christians today are so lost
Basically their focus is "obey whats in the bible or you will go to hell" they dont care about the complexities of existing and thinking about eternity while also being mortal.
While not complete in the sense that, we dont know what "the apocalypse" Dagor Dagorath, would be and what would happen there after for eternity. Its much more comprehensive approach that tries to honestly explore this subjects, without wanting to create religions, control populations, etc
To me Tolkien's work do so much better at trying to understand evil and immortality God and the soul, than religious do today. The true essence of the message of God and the prophets.
@@EruannaArtebecause so many who are "religious" read selected Sacred Scripture through a self-interpretative lens. This leads to heresy and that leads to many, MANY other issues. Tolkien, being a Catholic, was FAR closer to understanding the Sacred Scriptures than your average Bible-thumping Christian. This is why the story of Illuvatar does such a nice job as an allegory to Genesis, even if the author intended no such allegory. Even as a Catholic, I keep going back to the Silmarillion and I find how similarly beautiful the penmanship of Tolkien is to the penmanship of the Holy Spirit through Moses. Naturally, Genesis is more beautiful but Tolkien was given a great grace to use his pen to describe something so similar to actual history.
@@scottbrickner4980 Your Catholic arrogance is ironic, considering you're on the team that wholesale invented the papacy when nothing of its like was condoned by Jesus or the Apostles, and Peter himself would have disavowed the institution.
@@samaritan_sys cite your source, please.
@@scottbrickner4980 Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the writings of the Apostle Paul...
When reading that Melkor searched the void places for the Imperishable Flame, I imagined he was searching the innumerable stars and galaxies of the Universe beyond Arda for planets supporting life, but never found any.
Makes sense
Melkor never wanted independence. He wanted to run the show.
Not really it was more so that he wanted what his father had, the power of creation, although I do wonder if Eru Illuvatar had known what Melkor really wanted, would he have approached it differently?
I'm certain Eru knew what Melkor truly wanted. @@sindelscat9336
He knew, and told Melks to suk it up and know his place. @@sindelscat9336
@@thenameisx he isn't all knowing, he's just basically the narrator
@thenameisx that's what he's been referred to as, so that's what I'm calling him
Melkor basically wanted to be Eru and when he couldn't have that decided to try and destroy everything.
That's actually a very good way of summarising it.
Quite similar to Lucifer's story and how he became Satan.
Morgoth wasn't the greatest evil that Middle Earth ever saw. That honor is reserved for The Rings of Power.
An evil more sinister than the Ungoliant........
you mean the show right?
Yes, that anathema of tv
I always picture the music of the Ainur as something like the Hymn of the Cherubim or the Pilgrim's Chorus, and then Morgoth plays heavy metal.
This is it right here. And the fallen Maia who joined his cause were fire spirits who despised the boring Enya they played in Valinor all the time and wanted to rock out with Morgoth in Middle Earth.
In HoME, Melkor made a very bad choice in his career, trying to rape the sun. Nothing good could come from that.
In a way, you could say, Melkor was kinda like Caillou when he has one of his temper tantrums.
Hey man don't insult Melkor like that.
Being compared to Caillou is the sort of thing that made Melkor turn evil.
@@Transilvanian90 does feel like it’s kinda true though.
0:42 Sounds like my spirit animal.
Hey DG, I would love to see a longer video sometime similar to the Entire History of the Rohirrim, but it is about the Dunlendings. You could go into their kinship to the Haladin and Pre-numenoreans, their lives in Enedwaith, Calenardhon, Isengard, West-march and Dunland, and their relations withs Sauron, Saruman, Gondor, Rohan, and even Stoor-hobbits and exiles Dwarves.
On this subject, I dunno if you saw it on your last vid but I was wondering if you could do a video on why Eru intervened against Sauron but not against Morgoth.
I'm going to observe a potential flaw in this analysis.
The only source we have on what Melkor was like early on is from the other Valar. We known that the other Valar are also flawed beings, and in particular Manwë is unable to conceive that Melkor might have been insincere in his repentance during his chaining. Much like Sauron became unable to understand beings with good motives by the time of the War of the Ring, Manwë was unable to understand beings with evil motives. I suggest therefore that the information that the good Valar told the Elves, and that the Elves passed on to Bilbo, was likely biased or otherwise incomplete.
Setting the record straight, this is not an attempt to excuse Melkor for what he became; by the time that the Elves awoke at Cuivienen, he was already completely evil. However, I do suggest that the reasons why that happened might more complicated than the version that we have in the Silmarillion, and that it is possible that the other Valar may have, perhaps unintentionally, helped usher him down the road to villainy.
I thought I was going to read, "Morgoth is actually the good guy", for a minute there. You had me in the first half
No jokes though I agree 100%, if they couldn't actually understand Evil then they wouldn't really be able to speak to Morgoth's intentions too well, especially before the Elves, Men, Dwarves, etc. awoke because there's no "lesser being" for us to see Morgoth through, just objectively alien deities fighting over the world with the loser being the bad guy
Saw the idea that Melkor and Nienna were designed for one another but he refused to have a partner designed for him by another. Or maybe this is some headcannon i saw somewhere.
You're correct; one of JRR's versions does have Nienna down as a partner for Melkor. I have a distinct feeling that she'd have cried a good many more tears in that scenario...
@@gillianlovell9578 Indeed, probably for the best; we does not deserve such suffering.
@@gillianlovell9578 Yeah best that scenario was avoided. She didn't deserve that.
Am I the only one who here's the phone ring at 7:37?
Can you do a video about the dark numenoriens/kingsmen. Or about umbar or other kingsmen colonies
Love these videos
The important thing is CHOICE. Eru granted choice even though he knew what Melkor would do. But he still granted it to him, and didn't make them all robots to just obey
He deliberately created a being, fully aware that it would bring about misery. The notion of free will becomes irrelevant when the outcome is already known with certainty. Therefore, either he intentionally introduced evil into his world, or he lacks omniscience
@@kuklangarenSo It would be better to create nothing, 'meaning' comes from choices.
@@walterjunior1254I fail to see how that is relevant to what I wrote
He also denied the one thing Melkor wanted most, yet he let the others do the very thing that Melkor wanted, rather than coming to understand his child, especially since he viewed Melkor as his child, he neglected him, told him what he wanted was evil, despite Melkor being so much like him.
Melkor reminds me of a spoiled child who was given much but always wanted what others had. His main sin is that he wanted to usurp Eru Illuvatar's power. Later Sauron also wanted to be the primary god of Middle Earth. Both Melkor and Sauron wanted to steal what was not rightfully theirs.
I always felt that Eru decided to put the darker elements of himself into one being instead of bestowing it equally among the offspring of his thought. I mean he does straight up tell Melkor that there's nothing he is or does that doesn't have its uttermost source in him (paraphrasing but you get the idea)
I think the same could he said for the Judo-Christian God and Satan, that is if you take the 'Omni' virtues of God to be true. He couldn't create a being that would betray him or a evil being if he was all powerful, all-knowing, and all loving.
That would also give some background to why Melkor starts out orders of magnitude more powerful than all the other Ainur
My interpretation is that Melkor is Eru's doubts about his creation or himself given form.
Eru has no darkness, not one bit, an omniscient and omnipresent God can only be perfectly orderly. Because of free will Melkor corrupted elements he was given by Eru.
@@wulfheort8021 That makes no sense. Why can an omniscient and omnipresent (not omnipotent?) God only be orderly? If Eru created Melkor and Eru is omnipotent and omniscient, there is nothing, NOTHING, about Melkor that is not made by Eru. If Melkor then is evil, that evil is made quite specifically by Eru. So either:
Eru is not omniscient (he does not know Melkor will turn to evil).
Eru is not omnipotent (he knows Melkor will turn to evil but did not create it and is powerless to stop it).
Eru is not good.
Erus view of what is good is incomprehensible to mortals.
From a more philosophical standpoint the latter point is probably the most interesting. "Can an omnipotent god create a rock so heavy that the god cannot lift it?". The answer is a trick. There can be no omnipotent god, because if he cannot create that rock he is not omnipotent, and if he cannot lift it he is not omnipotent. Unless the answer is that we humans cannot comprehend omnipotence. And if we can't comprehend and omnipotent god, how can we comprehend that gods morality? A simpler view may be: "Your parents send you to bed early for your own good, even though you want to stay up late and game. You hate/dislike them for it because you don't understand why they do it". Thus Melkors actions may in fact be good, but Elves, Men, even the Valar do not understand how it can be. Only Eru understands why/how those actions are ultimately good.
Or Eru is a prick. Probably the simpler answer.
I feel sorry for Morgoth. Hes a miserable, wretched creation burning with hatred and he was made knowing he would become this. Eru did him dirty
Illuvatar knew exactly what Morgoth was going to become and he let it happen. It’s possible he wanted the inhabitants of Middle Earth to have an evil to face.
I will admit, it's my issue with the whole idea of an "omniscient" god.
There is a passage in the Silmarillion saying that the exile of the Noldor allowed their story to be greater, but at great cost. I believe that without Morgoth, the world would be a perfect bliss without any adventure and nothing worthy of being a story. Eru Ilúvatar needed an antagonizing force to push the Elves and Men to do great deeds. Morgoth was destined to turn evil from the very beginning.
this
thats an uncaring god if ever there was one. basically he made it so melkor was doined to suffer just because it was in his plan. a living conscious soul should never ne used lije thst ir made just to be bad and ultimately to be defeated and always suffer in torment
@@viper-the-great I agree that make Eru an uncaring god, but it is not different from actual religions. I have yet to find a decent god in current human religions.
For the first few pages of the Ainulindule I appreciated Melkor immensely! Who of us doesn't want to have independence from our parents? To do something that is unique and of our own? Melkor viewed Eru as pretty overbearing, which I understand. His actions, though, and destructive tendencies flipped the character pretty quickly.
I think I read or heard somewhere (which I think was credible and stuck in my mind) that in the early versions of the story, Eru actually praises Melkor for his daring and creativity at first
@@saeedshahbazian9889 oh I didn't know that tidbit!! Really cool. Melkor really wasn't all that evil at first. Just resentment and malice unaddressed made him worse overtime.
See, Melkor was still perfectly capable of creating things as long as he remained within the Will of Eru. It was his desire to be God and his resentment at not having an even more important part that led him to rebel.
Melkor was not "Morgoth" until ages after he ha turned evil.
Rings of Powers of all things made a really good point with the scene between Durin and his father. It brought the idea that Morgoth wanted to follow his own path in life that his father didn't let him have. This in turn filled him with spite and hatred for everything Eru had created and a desire to destroy it. Morgoth is basicaly a spoiled child with daddy issues on a grand cosmic scale.
I believe this Simpsons quote from "Bart Gets an Elephant" describes Melkor best;
"Well, Valar are a lot like people, Mrs. Simpson. Some of them act badly because they’ve had a hard life or have been mistreated. But, like people, some of them are just jerks. Stop that Melkor."
Morgoth sounds like Lucifer
Well....Duuuh
Very much so. Especially the Lucifer of Paradise Lost.
That's basically the role he plays in the Legendarium.
Aule was that close of falling as well but he was saved him is his greatest quality, humility, he created the dwarves for the joy of creating to be part of eru's creation not to contest or replace eru's creation, this is also why he's the greatest smith in Ëa, he realizes working with others will result in something that none of them could make on thier own, that's what morgoth really envied
Actually Melkor didn't _turn to_ evil but he kind of _invented_ it, due to being humbled by Iluvatar.
And even after it, his name wasn't Morgoth until Féanor cursed him after him having killed Féanors father Finwe and stolen the Silmarils.
But the thing is, there is no story if Melkor doesn't turn evil. A perfect world where Melkor remains disciplined and respectful is a reality that provides no discord for the Children of Illuvatar to grow through.
Or maybe, had Melkor been good, it might have elicited jealousy from Aule and others Ainur. Maybe everything would turn around, with Melkor being the one benevolent Ainur against a horde of Ainur gripped by the inverse vices of their own talents.
But then there would still be no story as a Good Melkor would just one-shot the others.
Video idea : the works of literature that helped inspired/influenced Lord of the Rings
The Well at the World's End by William Morris (1896) for example.
Lord Dunsany
Morgoth was created as a counter point to give existence depth. Its just Morgoth was also given free will.
Maybe to give the story depth fron Tolkien's perspective, but from Illuvatar's perspective it seems a bit more strange
Your interpretation. Morgoth was not created to give depth. If that was his purpose Illuvatar would be unjust for punishing him for accomplishing his purpose. No Morgoth was created for other creative, good purposes, but he freely rejected that and went his own way. That Illuvatar's will is triumphant in the end does not mean it is exactly as He wants, rather His power is simply greater.
It's clear that Morgoth was in rebellion, not fulfilling the purpose for which he was created.
@@jamess7576
I have always struggled with that concept, both in real-world theology and in Tolkien's sub-creation (which is, after all, heavily influenced by his Christian faith). In the Silmarillion, Illuvatar asserts to the Ainur that, in the end, everything will be seen to serve His purpose, even the discord introduced by Melkor. From this we can at least conclude that Illuvatar had foreseen all that Melkor would do, allowed for it, and incorporated it in His plan. But, doesn't that make Illuvatar responsible for Melkor's actions? After all, Illuvatar's existence was prior to everything and everyone; He comes first, and therefore He has the freedom to create or not create Melkor. In judging that a world with Melkor is preferable (better? fuller? more perfect?) to a world without him, wasn't Illuvatar complicit in the evil Melkor would do? And if He had no option but to allow it, how could this be reconciled with Him being all-powerful?
@@Nikolas_Davis no its more as if illuvatar was a composer who gave an orchestra a song to play. If one of the instruments rebels and plays a different song it will be discordant. but illuvatar was such a skilled creator he made a new music based on the rebelling music to make an even better song.
I've said it before, but since all matter has Morgoth element in it, if we trip and stub our toe on a rock Morgoth considers it a good day because he hates us as a group and as individuals. Just a monomaniacal hate with insane pettiness.
As a Catholic, Tolkien uses Morgoth as a Satan figure. What causes his fall & ours is pride, pride & more pride. Like you said, a doubling down, a rebellion, becoming more insular & self absorbed. Of course, the way out is humility but he was never going to do that. It’s interesting to note that it was the humble hobbits & the selflessness of Aragorn, Gimli etc… that eventually defeated him.
Well it was actually the intervention of Valinor who finally felt compassion for the world.
Morgoth was defeated by the Valar at the end of the First Age; hobbits, Aragorn, Gimli etc. are end of Third Age characters. Are you confusing Morgoth with Sauron?
Absolutely. And Good always trumps Evil.
@@gillianlovell9578Sauron in reality has the same flaws as Morgoth, so the point stands. But yes ofcourse the fellowship and the whole 3rd age was about defeating Sauron, not Morgoth
Nah, what caused the fall of Morgoth(or Lucifer) was Eru Ilúvatar(respectively god), which basically wrote down all of this would happen. Morgoth actually never was the evil guy, because he never had a choice. And only choices can be evil. So the actual big bad is Eru Ilúvatar - because he was in control of what happens. He created Morgoth and killed him just for funsies - together with thousands of humans, elves, hobbits and so on. And then sets some brainwashing stories in the world about how much he loved them and so on.
Good video. Although, I'd counter by saying that Melkor/Morgoth was ALWAYS "evil." To me, it seems plausible (even probable) that Eru intentionally instilled Melkor with the raw aspects of bitter envy and hate in order to contrast with more noble intentions (compassion, hope, love). Only by overcoming adversity can one truly appreciate peace and comfort.
I think Morgoth was created to challenge everyone, but through creative rivalry rather than destructiveness.
Lol glad nobody has started blaming Eru for morgoth's decisions.
He was created that way
Morgoth wanted true free will, free from Illuvatar. The moment Illuvatar tells him that "All your actions are to my greater design", aka "You are my puppet and have no free will" is the moment he chooses to destroy everything else. This is also why he hates the children of Illuvatar so much, because they DO get true free will.
People also neglect how Illuvatar is very much the true villain of the whole story. Either what he said was true and Morgoth was just his sock puppet, in which case he's obviously the one responsible, or he was cruel and lying to push Morgoth down that path and then not preventing it.
There can be nothing "outside" the universe.
I think what is important to realize about Morgoth is that had Illunatar and the valar been evil he would have been good.
Iru made him that way. Morgoth could only do what he was made to do. If Iru knows all he foresaw all this and Morgoth had no choice.
God created a world full of needless suffering, so he needs a scape-goat.
"He truly is a piece of shit that had no right to become such an asshole."
Love that closing.
Am I the only one that sees morgoth as completing the will of illuvatar? The world is the way it is because eru wanted it that way. Arda untainted is a pipe dream that was never supposed to be. Hopefully I’m making sense, I’m not really able to fully flesh my ideas out on a mobile phone.
Good point. Similar to how I think Judas was actually carrying out Jesus' will with his betrayal - and he was just the only followers sufficiently loyal to help Jesus accomplish God's plan of sacrifice. All of the others would try to stop Jesus from doing it. Sometimes a fall is part of the Grand plan.
It's not the way Eru wants it, but Eru is putting aside his own desires for his own creation. God is neutral and upon making a decision for his creations, become biased and therefore an unholy creator as morgoth(Satan) had become. This is basically the most Catholic version of the demiurge you could get too lol
Eru set Morgoth up to become what he did, it's even flat out stated that all Morgoth's actions are to Eru's greater design. Eru despite Tolkien not intending it, is technically the overarching villain of the entire saga because all his creation and their actions derive from him.
As Solidus once ironically said, "Pawns can never become players,"
Imagine being cursed with seeing all paths of the future but not which one will actually happen. Now we know why god is all knowing but won't intervene. It has no clue what to actually stop.
Very cool topic thanks 🙃
An omniscient creator deity is utterly incompatible with the notion of free will. People who can't understand this problem tend to be Abrahamists.
Eru Illuvatar created everything with full knowledge of how it would play out. He could have chosen to create a universe where Melkor never fell. Ergo Melkor became Morgoth by design.
True and except for Men as they can live outside the song of the ainur. I always took this as to mean that humanity were the ultimate wild cards because there destiny was strictly there own where as everyone else was tied to a script of sorts
It seems to me that Morgoth is similar to Lucifer. He is one of the best beings created but he isn't satisfied becasue HE wants to be God himself.
Because he has "Mor" in his name.
That came after (from Feanor). Before then he was just Melkor.
He didn't turn evil, he always was evil. He is the evil part of Iluvatars personality . The AInur are just parts of Iluvatars personality .
being stuck alone in a timeless void with an absentee father would definitely make any being turn into a murderous rebellious rampage
i'm guessing being the first being created, he has acquired almost all of Illuvatar's traits, both good and evil side.
and when Eru saw that giving a powerful being a personality and complicated emotion would result into a disaster. that may be why the Elves and Men were weaker by leagues compared to the Ainur.
that's why most of the Ainur were one dimensional force of natures except those special ainur that developed complex personalities like Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and Balrogs
People who read the Silmarillion and think Melkor was the good guy the misunderstood hero are the same people who think Lucifer was the good guy in Paradise Lost.
so from an idealist Melkor(later Morgoth) became an Anarchist, and ultimately a Nihilist.... therefore Anarchism and Nihilism are evil
I think in his mind he was the chad. Sauron and Saruman wanted to improve the creations of someone else, the Morgoth fella wanted to have his own creations, it is like creating reproductions or own artwork, or modder vs dev, who is superior, at least in their own mind?
great vid
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.
Because he was off-key.
Is morgoth illuvatar because who made illuvatar? Like Tolkien creating yet taking from previous stories to make his world etc
Just a pondering I have but is there any truth in it I dunno
Morgoth was illuvatar opinion of himself as the sole creator etc set there like a reminder of his own image only he can see because he’s god etc
"He truly is a piece of shit... whereas sauron and saruman thought they could actually improve the world."
Someone get this guy a job at Sparknotes, cause he just summarized Morgoth and put thousands of years worth of actions into context in a single sentence.
I always thought that Melkor's evil turn was scripted by Eru, because the God needed a villain for his grand story. It would have been cool with me as a stort-narrative thing, but the fact that he gave his Ainur Free Will seems cooler from THEIR point of view.
Edit: Also, the fact that I identify with Melkor (Morgoth not so much) greatly is one of the reasons I am not a (full) christian.
Because he was bored
Another aspect of Morgoth’s character that contributed was his desire for order. Not evil by itself, but he disliked how much freedom the other Ainur had to “do their own thing” as they were creating. In his short-sightedness (& pride) Morgoth believed this was simply chaos that needed to be subdued and controlled, rather than the birthplace of true beauty in creation.
Morgoth is like a spoiled child WHO would rather destroy his own toy Than let someone else use it
Narcissism and jealousy
I'm always disappointed the way these channels on Tolkien keep it in a distant land we site see with them being our tour guide. It'd be like visiting a cathedral to count the seats and learn the names of the statues but completely missing the point of the reason the building was made.
I've never read anything that suggests the Ainur had free will. They were created to do exactly what they did.
I disagree with this. The Valar discussed things with each other - if they were mindless slaves they wouldn't need to.
And the only Ainu we know well is Gandalf, who certainly has free will. He debates courses of action with himself, is frightened of the temptation to use the ring to do good with. All three Maiar for which we have narrative detail (Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron) are shown to have doubts and inner debate - these aren't something that a creature with no free will would have or need.
The Ainur clearly know what is expected of them, particularly Melkor (who understands Illuvatar's mind better than most), but he chooses not to act accordingly. Even the ones who stay within the guidelines don't know the future, but if they were mindlessly following instructions it wouldn't matter if they did.
There is something of the predestination paradox here - can *anything* be said to have free will if Illuvatar knows the entire future and what every being will ever decide before they act? Yet the characters clearly think they have, and act accordingly.
@@patriarch7237 It's just the Ainur that don't have free will. Eru specifically gave it to all the races on Middle Earth but not them. Debating and speaking has nothing to do with free will if Eru made them to do that. I'm not saying he simply knows what they will do and has planned for it, I'm saying he created them to do exactly as they're doing. They're following a script they don't know about, although Melkor is told basically that. They're all aspects of Eru, not individuals.
The reason? Infantile envy.
Morgoth is the original,
Very Naughty Boy.
I dislike the idea he had free will based on the words said after the song. It was already in him, and therefore melkor technically doesnt have free will, very contradictory, just like christianity's free will
Nothing "went wrong", Melkor did exactly as Eru Iluvitar created him to do
Melkor had free will and chose to be evil.
@@istari0 None of them had free will. Nothing suggests that. Iluvitar explicitly states that nothing they do, including Melkor, can be anything other than what he intended. That's not free will.
Melkor did nothing wrong
Some Valar just want to watch the world burn 😉.
Morgoth was not evil, he committed evil acts but he wasn't evil. What Morgoth was, was a child. A petulant, self-centred, brat of a child who believed his every whim should be catered for, and his acts of evil, as profound as they were, were temper tantrums of a petulant god, a child kicking his brother's sandcastle over because it was better, and not caring whose eyes the sand lands in. He was petty, immature, and jealous, and the free peoples suffered for it.
So evil
@@anthonymartell9880 If that's evil, then almost every toddler who has ever lived must be classed as evil.
@@saladinbobI've had several little sisters, I'd say they qualify
@@saladinbob Toddlers don’t attempt omnicide against existence itself.
@@saladinbobToddlers aren't exactly capable of destroying all of creation nor do they have the desire to do so
*_The Dark Side has cake..._* 😈
Because he had woke parents.
Sounds like Donald Trump.
More like Killary and Warcriminals Obama and Bush.
I feel some sympathy for Morgoth. Yeah, he reacts like a petulant angry spoiled child, but he is indeed correct to be angry. Eru made him a tool, he made them all a tool. Little more than servants.
Morgoth wanted to be his own man, captain of his own destiny. Eru laid the smackdown on him, and made it clear that you are nothing without me.
Morgoth decided to be angry and spiteful, but can you blame him? Eru gave him will and independence...under the condition that he does what he is told for all time.
Huh, if that is what he wanted, he should not have given him will and independence.
Everyone answers to someone in the end. 😊
From the Ainulindalë: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will." Well, we know what Morgoth chose to do with his powers.
@@istari0 When Melkor kept disrupting the harmony, Eru scolded him, saying that there is nothing in you that does not originate from me. whatever you do, I will use it to make my creation even more beautiful than before. This is not an exact quote, but it is clear that Eru only pretended to give free will to his creations. "You can do whatever you like, so long as you color inside these lines I made for you" That is basically what he is saying. Melkor was set up, the game was rigged from the start. Even the way LOTR ended! Golem finally got the ring inside mount doom...but then he slipped and fell in the lava. Hmm, Eru pushed him. The dirty bastard cheated.
@@alethiosoratos5455 Eru planned to give free will to his creations because that is what he considers the most beautiful way of creating.
@@maximvs272 Giving free will, but then not allowing freedom...seems rather foolish. I am not surprised there was a rebellion. Not with Eru and middle-earth, and not with God and the Bible. This is why I know there is a part of the story, with the Bible that is, which we do not know of.