Thanks for discussing how to fix a mistake and teaching us how to nip these issues in the bud with reconning. This is very helpful as I start my own campaign.
Party: Let's use the Rod to dominate some test subjects, grow our worm based bioweapon, and go commit some war crimes! King: I only have a problem with the first part.
Your players are thinking about unleashing a bioweapon on Ajax? Oh boy, there's no way this could have unintended consequences! Can't wait until Matt's next campaign setting "The Autophage Apocalypse."
On the other hand, I would never do that as a player since it was obvious that the DM spent some time to come up with something he or she thought was cool. I'd at least try to make it work.
I think it was unbelievably unsportsmanly for that player to not play along with Matt's Mindkiller encounter, even if they were uncomfortably with that type of roleplay. Also to say that Matt was wrong for thinking it was a good idea at all was just rude. A player should swallow their own misgivings, trust in the DM, and at least give it a go. If it doesn't work for them after that, then they can voice it to the DM.
@@moochieman7 At least they sincerely said outright what they thought. It's much better than someone secretly not enjoying themselves and it only coming out after the fact, as it's impossible to go back in time.
You talk about Lars figuring out the passphrase, but watching it I thought it was Töm who knew immediately. The look on his face and the semi-desperate 'trying to play cool' way he asked to hold the rod seemed like a dead giveaway. I think he was looking for a little moment of drama, Boots-- who owes a debt to Asmodeus-- saying "I do the devil's work," and attuning an evil rod? Poetic cinema.
As a boy I made friends with a kid who's dad had been a football coach, he told me once and it's always stuck with me "The good leader always loses. His team always wins. And a bad leader always wins at the expense of his team." That's what you did with the mindkiller retcon, good work.
Not really. He just accepted what his player was saying and changed his game to make it better for his player. I didn't sense any blame being laid on anyone
tbf he *did* mess up a rule, he even covered it at the end of last weeks campaign diary. in fact i thought that that was the rules he was referring to. was the confusion over the invisibility and the faerie fire and all of that. figured with all that going on, and possibly some players just kinda being like 'this is weird halp' he decided to retconn it. however, like you, i didn't suspect that it was all a ruse
Ringwell theory: the final thing sealed away is the name of some evil god, who's worship brought the end of multiple civilizations. Just like the forbiddance on the existence of Ringwell itself, the required knowledge to worship that entity is sealed in the deepest parts of the dungeon.
CAmp Great idea, I was thinking it was some entity that Ajax was drawing power from, and that would totally fit with this idea. The thing that’s always bothered me with Ajax is - he’s a saint. In Matt’s world, saints get their power from a higher power I think, but I don’t think we’ve ever been told who. It’s no coincidence that Ringwell is breaking as Ajax rises to power - whatever is in there is to do with Ajax, and it’s breaking out.
This is why I love this behind the sceens, make a mistake fix it and move on. Good lessons for players an DMs. Keep it up Matt, really enjoying this game.
SO many lessons in this diary, some overt (listening to players and quickly fixing the situation to maximize fun) and some subtle (the consistent reinforcement of player agency). Awesome stuff herein.
My ruling for inspiration is that you can use it to give yourself advantage on a roll, give an NPC (not another player!) disadvantage on a roll, *or* use it as a Hasted action (like the spell). So potentially another attack or spell or what have you. I've also gone out of my way to force myself to give out inspirations more often - I aim for one a session. It rewards my players and lets each one (somewhat randomly) get a cool flashy moment, since most of them save and use them for combat. Nothing will hype your wizard up like letting him toss two Fireballs in the same turn! I've had to adjust my encounter design to make fights a little tougher as a result, but the players have been loving it so far!
Really great suggestion about how to use inspiration to guide players. I've had the same issue with my players wandering away from their own best ideas, so I'm gonna use inspiration that way too!! Thanks as always!!
I love these videos. It's so exciting to hear what's happening in the game, and get Matt's take on it from the DM perspective. Almost makes me want to run a game myself. Keep up the great storytelling and content!
I really love the whole "ancient world ending plague is sealed within this tomb" kind of thing, it makes you wonder what other things are sealed in ringwell
Great example of listening to your fellow participants and coming up with a good option for both the in game action & narrative and redirecting any possibility of blame on to yourself, the one with the authority of trust, the game master.
I absolutely would have loved to watch this encounter but the way you handled the situation is amazing, I wish I could say that I would take the player's comment as gracefully as you did :)
I think this was just a footnote for most people, but the part which really got me was that "heroes are best challenged when the bad guys are able to get into position". I've been struggling with engaging combat for the longest time, until I realized every encounter I did was basically the heroes on one side, and the enemies on another. So thanks, Matt! I'm going to go design an ambush...
I think it's great that Matt's player trusted him enough to tell him that they didn't like the idea of playing out the 'alien' and that Matt listened and put his player's enjoyment above his plan for the game. Matt looked at the situation, thought about what *he* could have done differently to make it better, and came up with a genius way to retcon that placed no blame on the player, took no unnecessary game time, and then they were off and playing and it was no big deal. Just a great instance of someone being honest and saying 'this is no fun for me' and the maker of the plan listening and placing more value in their enjoyment than anything else.
Really interesting video. The retcon info was super helpful. My second D&D session is on Saturday thanks in part to you and Dael Kingsmill so a big cheers from me. And in other news, when I get back to filming TH-cam videos I worked out a signature end tagline of "drill out your gun barrels"
I think it is fair to say that you didn't "lie" about having made a mistake. The mistake was not a mechanical one but one related to the social part of the game. The DM's job is not just to provide challenges but to provide a game that is fun for the players. If the affected player is not going to have fun at all (i.e., they would rather sit out), that becomes a mistake on the part of the DM, as you already pointed out. Regardless, it's a great learning opportunity. It serves as a reminder for both newer DMs and long-time DMs like myself to remember to account for what the players will enjoy when designing challenges. Because while it might be challenging, we still want the players to enjoy the encounter/challenge/situation.
With the mind killer you had already layed the groundwork for it being a possibility that no one was posesed. I'm surprised you didn't tell the player to act as if they had just gotten the normal note. It would have been cool to see the players being paranoid.
I'm happy with this....I was excited at first, but had time with the tech difficulties, to completely agree with your decision. I'm super happy that you listen to the players, family, and that they are open enough to express their feelings of being uncomfortable, without feeling like you would throw them under the bus. Very smooth move, Matt. Doesn't matter who it was, what matters is that everyone enjoys themselves playing, and isn't forced to do something that they aren't into. Love you guys, and gal, and enjoy all streams!!! Thank you all for such an amazing watch!!! Keep up the fantastic work, and I'll see ya tonight!!! (Haglaz, I use hubby's twitch)
Hey, Matt. I wanted to let you know that, entirely because of your recommendation and because of The Chain, I have the first book of The Black Company sitting in my Audible waiting for me.
I swear these streams draw me even further in to the story and the world every week. It's so good! I was actually afraid of Capitol getting destroyed during that encounter with the Autophage. (Might come a little bit from the fact that my character accidentally caused the destruction of the main city of our campaign and we've been suffering through those consequences recently.)
Some good calls. I am surprised by the player just nopeing out, it would never occur to me to do that, unless perhaps because of trigger issues, or group taboo subjects. I'm not sure how I'd react, the DM presents a challenge it doesn't seem okay to just go "Yeah I think this is dumb." That's more of a post game discussion in my mind, after the fact. I mean the other players might have had a good time, the DM was excited about it, and the audience (for what that's worth) was excited. I'd at least give it a shot. The game is a group experience, one of give and take, and sometimes individuals should be able to put aside their own preference for the table's fun. But at the same time, it was the right call for a DM to make on an encounter that wasn't really important, and to reduce friction in the party and at the table. Tough stuff though. Though I might have just had all of them check themselves over, find none of them were possessed, and then had it be like one of their magic items was possessed instead. Middle of an encounter one of their items gets a mind of its own, starts acting as a flying (insert here), no need for a ret-con, totally different encounter, but let's the player off the hook, while still being interesting and a challenge. That autophage business was gross, and looks like it might be a total game changer.
Interesting that you ruled that the warlock would lose their abilities when their patron leaves them, I always saw warlocks as being gifted the knowledge to use their abilities, and thus, would keep them if their patron leaves. This differentiates them from clerics in my eyes.
I kind of wish Matt had commented more on the player argumentation surrounding the rod. It really felt like Phil and Anna were pushing Lars to act out of character, rather than Judge and Slim telling King to use it. As soon as I heard Lars say "for the record, King would destroy it" and then relented, I felt like everything that happened after that point was inauthentic. I'm still really invested and love the stream, of course, but that may end up as my least favorite player interaction in The Chain.
I agree, the rod is obviously evil and not a point of compromise for King. Unless they NEED it for some reason down the line it should be locked up or just destroyed. It is trouble waiting to happen. If I was lars i would get upset in the future if it backfires in any way because King wanted it gone a long time ago and he got pressured out of character to use something that makes no sense in character for him to be ok with.
I was going to tweet at OD after the game that he had broken quarantine on a bio weapon WMD, but I’m glad they figured it out. Bit terrified that they want to USE IT now. I wonder what Akumetsu will think of this...
note to players, while its good to be open and honest with your dm and voice opinions about the content of the game. Try to have that conversation earlier than an hour before we sit down to play. Count this advice for double points if you are part of a professional level stream
Chaz Mathieson To be fair, he did say the player came up to him afterwards and said they weren’t looking forward to the next week. So they must have told him pretty quickly. Definitely agree with you though
To be fair to players: I would suggest having the worms do 1d2 points of damage at the beginning of that players turn as it starts to burrow into them.(or even a 1d20 and anything less then 16 deals 1 damage) This would let the players know the worms are bad and by hearing the dice roll they may think they lucked out and got low damage. A lot of players will metagame, and if there isn't a die roll before an effect they may just dismiss it. I'd also suggest allowing creative means of removing the worms. Something like Armor of Agathys could freeze the worms killing them, or polymorph could cause the worm to dislodge.
What are your thoughts on a will save to force a player to try to eat their own skin? I know some players that *hate* a failed save forcing an action on their player, but it seems like a really interesting possibility.
@@nickwilliams8302 I would be able to talk to it. Figure out how to help it, and, hopefully, become friends. And who knows, maybe it would be beneficial in some specific cases to be mind controlled?
DM Regen- When a creature goes below (half) Hp. it (obvious effect like "roars in anger") and renews its vigor (heal x hp) as a (reaction/bonus action/free action)
I just found this series, and I'm really liking it so far. Do I need to watch any of the playlists besides 'The Campaign Diaries' to get the full backstory of this world/setting?
I did something like that once. I was playing a superhero RPG and had two main enemy factions. One could neutralize their powers (thing like anti-hero swat) and the other, the main villain of the campaign, could read their mind and turn them against each other. THEY HATED IT. Never take agency away from your players.
I do feel like it was a big oopsie on Matt O.D's part to not think "hmm, this is evil, maybe Leech's patron wouldn't like this" but I think it worked from a narrative perspective because it was Leech being a good soldier and following orders from his commander. At least at first, until it broke his connection to his patron.
Yeah, I miss the good ol' (for me) "hero points" of the role-playing games I grew up with, to be spent on changing elements, system mechanical or narrative, of the game and its story.
I bet I could guess who it was who got possessed and didn't want to deal with it, not that I'd blame them. Personally I hate loosing control of my character, I typically brought a character to a table because I wanted to play that character, temporarily loosing an ability or undergoing natural character progression is fine is fine, but having to come to the table knowing your not going to get to play the character you wanted to, does not feel good in the slightest. At the same time some players love that sort of thing, beceause it let's them be a bit naughty for a stint, which can be therapeutic. I can also see the argument that the possession plotline is not very dramatic, it's really overdone, and often removes a likeable character from a story for a uncomfortable amount of time often for them to wind up dead at the end anyways. That being said letting the character make periodic wisdom checks, to try and drop hints that they have been possessed could be freaking cool, letting them straight up break free of the possession after 3 successes. Heck you could even do the roles in between game, and have a signal to them for every time they would have made the roll during game. But maybe that's too complex.
When you want to add a doppelganger to the party, there's just one way to handle it. Fake it. When one of the player characters dies reveal that they were a skrull all along. Paranoia and hilarity ensues. If you plan on doing this, you might want the players to run into a doppleganger early in the campaign. Best thing is that you don't have to bring back the PC from the dead. They're captured somewhere and the players will have to rescue them. This does require some improvisation, but you can fake it by just rolling with whatever explanation the players come up with.
I could use some advice: I’m a player in Dragon Heist and my characters been intellect devoured so I’m playing as the alien masquerade just like Matt’s mind killer. I haven’t done anything to give myself away yet, just planning to steal some mcguffin for my ilithid master later on. The other players have discovered me via detect evil and good spell and my dm has told me I know this and my master wants to attack the party in a big ambush battle because my cover is blown. I like the idea of the betrayal, but we haven’t seen the mcguffin yet and I think it’d be more dramatic to attack them once we have the thing. Dm disagrees and wants to do the battle. What should I do here? Go along with the plan? DMs story and all that? I don’t know much about dragon heist and this ilithids sposed to be a miniboss or something. The combat encounter sounds fun but I’m afraid of the lost potential for my character TLDR: dm wants possessed character to attack party. Character thinks it’s a waste of character. Looking for third option.
Okay, so the Detect Evil and Good spell has informed your party that there is an "aberration, Celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or Undead" in your spot. And your character is aware of this, according to your DM. What would the goal of this ambush at this point be? Can your character prevail on their own against the entire rest of the party? I am guessing that chances for victory would be very slim. If the goal of your ambush is to defeat the party, try to stall for time. I'd propose: find a different explanation for what the detection spell told them. Tell your DM that an ambush at this point would be strategically unsound and rather try weaseling your way out. If you want to save the character, ask your DM about possibilities to destroy the parasite and restore the original brain. Maybe you can have it both ways, to die and then be restored?
I'll have help in the ambush, ilithid master to the rescue to save his favorite pet sorta thing. I think the goal of the ambush is to kill the ilithid and all his minions, and reveal a new npc ally to the party. I've told my Dm I think the plan itself is good, just poorly timed, but he's gonna go ahead with it anyway. I like your idea of stalling and weaseling though. Maybe I can get one of the other characters to trap me in a conversation/ interrogation it could be fine, but if they all go to sleep then it's going down.
I think the reason that they didn't think Remove Curse would have worked is because the descriptions you gave for the Autophage were almost purely biological. Treating it like a disease or illness makes sense, but curses have a magical feel to them. These didn't feel magical, just worms working really well together.
I was happy the mind killer got retconned. And I would like to see more of the city. Go to the Opera and the Tieflig village. Also King wanted to recruit more Chain members. I think that would be interesting.
IMHO, there's been far too much reliance on subverting player agency already in this campaign. And yeah, it feels like the Chain still don't really know that much about Capital. Even things that really seem like they should be pretty straightforward seem like pulling teeth for them to find out.
I'm my personal experience, most players HATE it when the DM starts telling them how to rollplay there charector. Some people really don't like having their agency over their PC's actions infringed. I'm not saying don't do a PC possession storyline, but there are a lot of pitfalls with it so be very careful in how you do it.
@@acm4bass The issue isn't mind control per se - losing control of your character sucks, but hey, you failed the save - but handing the player a note telling them what to do. Some players aren't going to find that fun.
Heh, it was definitely Lars, if those quotes are accurate. Only other person I could see using those words would maybe be Phil, but Matt had said the mind-killer was afraid of Gith, so it trying to burrow into the mind of one doesn't make much sense. The situation does have value for a GM tips/Running the Game lesson, but it's kind of weird that Matt would be so descriptive about the person's reaction when he was trying to keep it anonymous, since it really points out who it was if you've watched the streams at all. Unless I'm completely wrong.
@@bamzolino Matt mentioned last episode that he likes playing the enemies a little dumb so the kind killer went after the person with the highest wisdom save, and the person “shockingly” failed. Obviously King
Great video matt love this stuff also if you wanted a man worm monster there is the Worm that Walks in Mordenkein tome of foes classic monster from HP lovecraft
I would have pulled back on the gross descriptions. It felt like Anna was about to get up and walk away^^. Not everyone has the same threshold for certain types of horror
That worm encounter sounds great, particularly because it invites all manner of creative solutions, as all burrowing parasite type monsters invite. Could you Shocking Grasp to kill the worms inside the victim? Would Gaseous Form leave the parasite high and dry? How about Etherealness? The players will always come up with some outside the box thought process to escape certain doom, and that's one of the things that makes TRPGs so fun.
Doug Kovacs (Dungeon Crawl Classics) made an excellent one-off RPG called Meat Planet, which involves PC possession. goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/MeatPlanet-e1552623947881.jpg
I hate possession as a game mechanic and anything like it. When you ask players to work against each other they very rarely enjoy it. It asks a level of sportsmanship that is certainly more than I am capable of and is probably more than the person my character is now attacking is capable of.
@Marvalontal yeah, accept the DM is probably not that attached to what ever the players are mind controlling. And the problem is not them refusing to play, it is that they are not enjoying it. Most players like working as a team. Some players love the change of pace that mind control brings, others are miserable. The example in this campaign is not unusual.
I tried it a few sessions ago and the players loved it, they got to fight each other with teapots. Just target the right player and be sure to have an easy get-out option if it's not working.
@Marvalontal If the players abuse it then sure, tip for tap. Mind flayers and aboleths have the key weakness that attacking them can break concentration, and you do not have to target the PCs. For example turning an NPC against them or planting misinformation. These are insidious and creepy. Taking control of the barbarian, having them rage and recklessly attack the cleric etc may be thoroughly enjoyed by the kind of player that wants more PvP but I think that is not the majority of players and it is asking too much to say that all players should be down for this.
@@BBP081 Protection from Evil and Good or Magic Circle are spells that can break mind control quite well. If one of the unpossessed party members has this prepared, the problem can be easily solved. Apart from mechanics, the DM can rule that the possessing creature decides that the combat is unwinnable and gives up.
I always find in DnD, s*** happens. You just find a way out of it somehow. You can go through different madness problems (OOTA) or have a curse (TOA) It's all part and parcel of going through and becoming a hero. I get it that it's just a game and games are meant to be fun but there is always summat you're not gonna like and it's like that with EVERY type of game (e.g street fighter - only using Chun li, E Honda or Blanka. Monopoly - someone who always get the best ones) you overcome and move on. For someone to say "I don't like it" unless it's a uncomfortable topic (I don't think I need to explain that) then just ride it out, it might actually be fun or you may be able to do "summat". One day you'll be saved and maybe through the experience you'll gain summat (the ghost had been around for many years and knew lots of languages which now YOU know) In my last sesh of OOTA I suffered 3 different madness. God it was a pain because we couldn't get owt done but we went along with it and it was a laugh in the end.
Agreed. Unless the activity is crossing some kind of boundary, like its a personal taboo topic not covered by session ) or whatever, it seems like you should at least give it a go. The whole game is give and take. That said, I think Matt made the right call to avoid conflict with a player who was not looking forward to the next session and it was an encounter that didn't really matter. I can't really imagine being that player myself though, wouldn't occur to me to just say "Nah."
For the purpose of the stream i agree Matt made a good call. Just nip in the bud and call it a day. No problems or arguments. However i bet he is gonna subconsciously be double guessing himself in case it happens again. Being a DM does take work and we as DMs take care to make sure that the stuff on the table is memorable, yeah some parts will suck for X and Y reasons but you'll remember how you sorted it... "Remember when you was blind for 4 weeks?" "Yeah but the look on the big bad's face when i got the cure and said I SEE YOU" For the good to be epic you need it to "somewhat" suck a bit of the time. In a campaign i ran i had two players who wanted to best each other (only one had the stats to back it up) when the weaker one died... i had his body taken by vampires and had him turned, guess what the new "NPC" did....... beat up and robbed the other player of all his stuff lol He was sooo pi**ed but vowed revenge. It was amazing
Thanks for discussing how to fix a mistake and teaching us how to nip these issues in the bud with reconning. This is very helpful as I start my own campaign.
Party: Let's use the Rod to dominate some test subjects, grow our worm based bioweapon, and go commit some war crimes!
King: I only have a problem with the first part.
You can't violate the Geneva Conventions if they don't exist
Your players are thinking about unleashing a bioweapon on Ajax? Oh boy, there's no way this could have unintended consequences!
Can't wait until Matt's next campaign setting "The Autophage Apocalypse."
Fallout, but in D&D?
As a patron of MCDM, I really appreciate your insistence on not locking everything behind a pay wall. We need more of that.
The willingness to throw out an encounter or idea for the enjoyment of your players is what separates a good DM from a great one.
On the other hand, I would never do that as a player since it was obvious that the DM spent some time to come up with something he or she thought was cool. I'd at least try to make it work.
I think it was unbelievably unsportsmanly for that player to not play along with Matt's Mindkiller encounter, even if they were uncomfortably with that type of roleplay. Also to say that Matt was wrong for thinking it was a good idea at all was just rude. A player should swallow their own misgivings, trust in the DM, and at least give it a go. If it doesn't work for them after that, then they can voice it to the DM.
@@moochieman7 At least they sincerely said outright what they thought. It's much better than someone secretly not enjoying themselves and it only coming out after the fact, as it's impossible to go back in time.
You talk about Lars figuring out the passphrase, but watching it I thought it was Töm who knew immediately. The look on his face and the semi-desperate 'trying to play cool' way he asked to hold the rod seemed like a dead giveaway. I think he was looking for a little moment of drama, Boots-- who owes a debt to Asmodeus-- saying "I do the devil's work," and attuning an evil rod? Poetic cinema.
As a boy I made friends with a kid who's dad had been a football coach, he told me once and it's always stuck with me "The good leader always loses. His team always wins. And a bad leader always wins at the expense of his team."
That's what you did with the mindkiller retcon, good work.
Dorkseid Man, my old store manager could have used this advice.
Old saying in basketball (at least for me it was basketball) is shorter but same idea, "Players win, Coaches lose."
Yeah but he shifted the blame to some random player. So I kinda feel crappy about it. 😞
Not really. He just accepted what his player was saying and changed his game to make it better for his player. I didn't sense any blame being laid on anyone
How long have we been in this dungeon?
Five weeks? Two days?
Help me... to recollect.
Hugo Maat Tell me, what’s a mind killer want with being a PC?
...
On the run?
seems you've been the victim of an intellect devourer...
Why'd ya spill yer beans?
Why’d you roll your dice...
I completely believed you had blown some rule with the Mind Killer retcon - well done.
tbf he *did* mess up a rule, he even covered it at the end of last weeks campaign diary.
in fact i thought that that was the rules he was referring to. was the confusion over the invisibility and the faerie fire and all of that. figured with all that going on, and possibly some players just kinda being like 'this is weird halp' he decided to retconn it.
however, like you, i didn't suspect that it was all a ruse
Ringwell theory: the final thing sealed away is the name of some evil god, who's worship brought the end of multiple civilizations. Just like the forbiddance on the existence of Ringwell itself, the required knowledge to worship that entity is sealed in the deepest parts of the dungeon.
CAmp Great idea, I was thinking it was some entity that Ajax was drawing power from, and that would totally fit with this idea. The thing that’s always bothered me with Ajax is - he’s a saint. In Matt’s world, saints get their power from a higher power I think, but I don’t think we’ve ever been told who. It’s no coincidence that Ringwell is breaking as Ajax rises to power - whatever is in there is to do with Ajax, and it’s breaking out.
This is why I love this behind the sceens, make a mistake fix it and move on. Good lessons for players an DMs. Keep it up Matt, really enjoying this game.
Boots on the march to the dark side...
First owing Asmodeus and now the Rod? Happy-go-lucky is going to take on a bit of a darker tinge soon methinks.
SO many lessons in this diary, some overt (listening to players and quickly fixing the situation to maximize fun) and some subtle (the consistent reinforcement of player agency). Awesome stuff herein.
My ruling for inspiration is that you can use it to give yourself advantage on a roll, give an NPC (not another player!) disadvantage on a roll, *or* use it as a Hasted action (like the spell). So potentially another attack or spell or what have you. I've also gone out of my way to force myself to give out inspirations more often - I aim for one a session. It rewards my players and lets each one (somewhat randomly) get a cool flashy moment, since most of them save and use them for combat. Nothing will hype your wizard up like letting him toss two Fireballs in the same turn! I've had to adjust my encounter design to make fights a little tougher as a result, but the players have been loving it so far!
If you can cast a spell with the extra action, it's more like Action Surge than Haste.
Thank You for your sharing your experience with the retcon. Being able to see you handling complications.
Really great suggestion about how to use inspiration to guide players. I've had the same issue with my players wandering away from their own best ideas, so I'm gonna use inspiration that way too!! Thanks as always!!
I love these videos. It's so exciting to hear what's happening in the game, and get Matt's take on it from the DM perspective. Almost makes me want to run a game myself. Keep up the great storytelling and content!
I really love the whole "ancient world ending plague is sealed within this tomb" kind of thing, it makes you wonder what other things are sealed in ringwell
Just had to add after thinking about it, the Matt Colville Effect sounds more impressive to me.
Great example of listening to your fellow participants and coming up with a good option for both the in game action & narrative and redirecting any possibility of blame on to yourself, the one with the authority of trust, the game master.
Yes! Looking forward to the insights.
These videos are very helpful! Thank you for letting us learn from your experience!)
I absolutely would have loved to watch this encounter but the way you handled the situation is amazing, I wish I could say that I would take the player's comment as gracefully as you did :)
You can watch the encounter here on TH-cam! th-cam.com/video/JUo_jNVzers/w-d-xo.html
Thank you Matt for the explanation. I was wondering what the catalist for the ret-con was, and the thinking that went with it.
Hey, Matt, have the mind killer possess Odie. He could, in the worst possible moment, just disobey Lich.
Possessed Odie would give itself away by being loyal and helpful lol.
I think this was just a footnote for most people, but the part which really got me was that "heroes are best challenged when the bad guys are able to get into position". I've been struggling with engaging combat for the longest time, until I realized every encounter I did was basically the heroes on one side, and the enemies on another. So thanks, Matt! I'm going to go design an ambush...
At least twice, Tom Schmuck instinctively and instantly figured out your riddles, once in the Library and once in Ringwell with the Rod.
I think it's great that Matt's player trusted him enough to tell him that they didn't like the idea of playing out the 'alien' and that Matt listened and put his player's enjoyment above his plan for the game. Matt looked at the situation, thought about what *he* could have done differently to make it better, and came up with a genius way to retcon that placed no blame on the player, took no unnecessary game time, and then they were off and playing and it was no big deal. Just a great instance of someone being honest and saying 'this is no fun for me' and the maker of the plan listening and placing more value in their enjoyment than anything else.
Really interesting video. The retcon info was super helpful. My second D&D session is on Saturday thanks in part to you and Dael Kingsmill so a big cheers from me. And in other news, when I get back to filming TH-cam videos I worked out a signature end tagline of "drill out your gun barrels"
I think it is fair to say that you didn't "lie" about having made a mistake. The mistake was not a mechanical one but one related to the social part of the game. The DM's job is not just to provide challenges but to provide a game that is fun for the players. If the affected player is not going to have fun at all (i.e., they would rather sit out), that becomes a mistake on the part of the DM, as you already pointed out. Regardless, it's a great learning opportunity. It serves as a reminder for both newer DMs and long-time DMs like myself to remember to account for what the players will enjoy when designing challenges. Because while it might be challenging, we still want the players to enjoy the encounter/challenge/situation.
Well said
Granted, nothing can be perfect, but I do not find the attitude of the player a good one, either.
Yes. *I* felt overwhelmed with worms last week. Can only imagine how the players felt. xD
the autophage encounter was fun to watch for me. cant wait for tonight!
With the mind killer you had already layed the groundwork for it being a possibility that no one was posesed. I'm surprised you didn't tell the player to act as if they had just gotten the normal note. It would have been cool to see the players being paranoid.
I'm happy with this....I was excited at first, but had time with the tech difficulties, to completely agree with your decision.
I'm super happy that you listen to the players, family, and that they are open enough to express their feelings of being uncomfortable, without feeling like you would throw them under the bus. Very smooth move, Matt. Doesn't matter who it was, what matters is that everyone enjoys themselves playing, and isn't forced to do something that they aren't into.
Love you guys, and gal, and enjoy all streams!!! Thank you all for such an amazing watch!!! Keep up the fantastic work, and I'll see ya tonight!!! (Haglaz, I use hubby's twitch)
"I should have retconned the name to retcon" was unreasonably funny to me
Some great DM insight and advice in this one!
Hey, Matt. I wanted to let you know that, entirely because of your recommendation and because of The Chain, I have the first book of The Black Company sitting in my Audible waiting for me.
I'm stealing that Autophage encounter, my warlock will almost definitely try to keep a worm too and I would LOVE to see him use it.
I swear these streams draw me even further in to the story and the world every week. It's so good! I was actually afraid of Capitol getting destroyed during that encounter with the Autophage. (Might come a little bit from the fact that my character accidentally caused the destruction of the main city of our campaign and we've been suffering through those consequences recently.)
I love your content Matt, please don't stop being a river to your people
34:48 "After dinner, coffee and tobacco will be provided." It IS a secret code! It means they discovered the New World!
Some good calls. I am surprised by the player just nopeing out, it would never occur to me to do that, unless perhaps because of trigger issues, or group taboo subjects. I'm not sure how I'd react, the DM presents a challenge it doesn't seem okay to just go "Yeah I think this is dumb." That's more of a post game discussion in my mind, after the fact. I mean the other players might have had a good time, the DM was excited about it, and the audience (for what that's worth) was excited. I'd at least give it a shot. The game is a group experience, one of give and take, and sometimes individuals should be able to put aside their own preference for the table's fun. But at the same time, it was the right call for a DM to make on an encounter that wasn't really important, and to reduce friction in the party and at the table. Tough stuff though.
Though I might have just had all of them check themselves over, find none of them were possessed, and then had it be like one of their magic items was possessed instead. Middle of an encounter one of their items gets a mind of its own, starts acting as a flying (insert here), no need for a ret-con, totally different encounter, but let's the player off the hook, while still being interesting and a challenge. That autophage business was gross, and looks like it might be a total game changer.
Interesting that you ruled that the warlock would lose their abilities when their patron leaves them, I always saw warlocks as being gifted the knowledge to use their abilities, and thus, would keep them if their patron leaves. This differentiates them from clerics in my eyes.
Ohh, my brother's copy of Strongholds and Followers arrived while watching this. Talk about coincidence
The Spawn of Kyuss are some of my favorite monsters, they are so creepy.
I kind of wish Matt had commented more on the player argumentation surrounding the rod. It really felt like Phil and Anna were pushing Lars to act out of character, rather than Judge and Slim telling King to use it. As soon as I heard Lars say "for the record, King would destroy it" and then relented, I felt like everything that happened after that point was inauthentic. I'm still really invested and love the stream, of course, but that may end up as my least favorite player interaction in The Chain.
I agree, the rod is obviously evil and not a point of compromise for King. Unless they NEED it for some reason down the line it should be locked up or just destroyed. It is trouble waiting to happen. If I was lars i would get upset in the future if it backfires in any way because King wanted it gone a long time ago and he got pressured out of character to use something that makes no sense in character for him to be ok with.
Is there gonna be another evil vampire lord chasing the party over a crazy powerful weapon? Cause I loved it then, and I'll love it now, I hope!
I was going to tweet at OD after the game that he had broken quarantine on a bio weapon WMD, but I’m glad they figured it out.
Bit terrified that they want to USE IT now. I wonder what Akumetsu will think of this...
note to players, while its good to be open and honest with your dm and voice opinions about the content of the game. Try to have that conversation earlier than an hour before we sit down to play. Count this advice for double points if you are part of a professional level stream
Chaz Mathieson To be fair, he did say the player came up to him afterwards and said they weren’t looking forward to the next week. So they must have told him pretty quickly. Definitely agree with you though
Good thing this isn't what happened.
Whoo! Been looking forward to this.
To be fair to players: I would suggest having the worms do 1d2 points of damage at the beginning of that players turn as it starts to burrow into them.(or even a 1d20 and anything less then 16 deals 1 damage) This would let the players know the worms are bad and by hearing the dice roll they may think they lucked out and got low damage. A lot of players will metagame, and if there isn't a die roll before an effect they may just dismiss it. I'd also suggest allowing creative means of removing the worms. Something like Armor of Agathys could freeze the worms killing them, or polymorph could cause the worm to dislodge.
I know it's rare but man do I love these campaign diaries
I miss when you used to edit small clips from the game into these vids.
What are your thoughts on a will save to force a player to try to eat their own skin? I know some players that *hate* a failed save forcing an action on their player, but it seems like a really interesting possibility.
Matt, if ever you use the Mind-killer again, it should definitely have a terror effect.
I trust you know why. 😉
I would have totally wrote on my card "I purposefully fail my will save."
Same here, but I completely understand that not everyone find entertainment or even feel comfortable in that situation.
So, you're saying that your character _wants_ to be mind-controlled?
@@nickwilliams8302 I would be able to talk to it. Figure out how to help it, and, hopefully, become friends. And who knows, maybe it would be beneficial in some specific cases to be mind controlled?
@@hirosoli So ... some unknown force tries to overwhelm your PCs mind, and your character's reaction is, "Maybe it wants to be friends."?
@@nickwilliams8302 Exactly!
Ajax seems more able to stop an epidemic than any current leader of our world, maybe he isn't so bad as a ruler after all
Can’t wait!!!!!!!!
DM Regen- When a creature goes below (half) Hp. it (obvious effect like "roars in anger") and renews its vigor (heal x hp) as a (reaction/bonus action/free action)
I just found this series, and I'm really liking it so far. Do I need to watch any of the playlists besides 'The Campaign Diaries' to get the full backstory of this world/setting?
The synth rack is different! We fear change!
I did something like that once. I was playing a superhero RPG and had two main enemy factions. One could neutralize their powers (thing like anti-hero swat) and the other, the main villain of the campaign, could read their mind and turn them against each other.
THEY HATED IT. Never take agency away from your players.
I do feel like it was a big oopsie on Matt O.D's part to not think "hmm, this is evil, maybe Leech's patron wouldn't like this" but I think it worked from a narrative perspective because it was Leech being a good soldier and following orders from his commander. At least at first, until it broke his connection to his patron.
It was Lars...
Matt, have you looked the Pathfinder 2e Core Rulebook? If so, what are your impresions? Love your content!
He has been asked this in previous live streams. He has not looked at it.
Given that Matt doesn't even use Feats when running 5e, I don't think PF is really going to be his cup of tea.
14:45 Do I detect some Anne McCaffrey influence?
I bet it was Lars
Yeah, I miss the good ol' (for me) "hero points" of the role-playing games I grew up with, to be spent on changing elements, system mechanical or narrative, of the game and its story.
I bet I could guess who it was who got possessed and didn't want to deal with it, not that I'd blame them. Personally I hate loosing control of my character, I typically brought a character to a table because I wanted to play that character, temporarily loosing an ability or undergoing natural character progression is fine is fine, but having to come to the table knowing your not going to get to play the character you wanted to, does not feel good in the slightest. At the same time some players love that sort of thing, beceause it let's them be a bit naughty for a stint, which can be therapeutic.
I can also see the argument that the possession plotline is not very dramatic, it's really overdone, and often removes a likeable character from a story for a uncomfortable amount of time often for them to wind up dead at the end anyways.
That being said letting the character make periodic wisdom checks, to try and drop hints that they have been possessed could be freaking cool, letting them straight up break free of the possession after 3 successes. Heck you could even do the roles in between game, and have a signal to them for every time they would have made the roll during game. But maybe that's too complex.
Woot!
Give me all the delicious content. YES THE GREAT GAME
Just had a funny thought, what if my players have the matt colville effect?
As long as your players don't turn into Lars, I'd say it'll be fine.
When you want to add a doppelganger to the party, there's just one way to handle it. Fake it. When one of the player characters dies reveal that they were a skrull all along. Paranoia and hilarity ensues. If you plan on doing this, you might want the players to run into a doppleganger early in the campaign. Best thing is that you don't have to bring back the PC from the dead. They're captured somewhere and the players will have to rescue them. This does require some improvisation, but you can fake it by just rolling with whatever explanation the players come up with.
I could use some advice:
I’m a player in Dragon Heist and my characters been intellect devoured so I’m playing as the alien masquerade just like Matt’s mind killer. I haven’t done anything to give myself away yet, just planning to steal some mcguffin for my ilithid master later on. The other players have discovered me via detect evil and good spell and my dm has told me I know this and my master wants to attack the party in a big ambush battle because my cover is blown. I like the idea of the betrayal, but we haven’t seen the mcguffin yet and I think it’d be more dramatic to attack them once we have the thing. Dm disagrees and wants to do the battle.
What should I do here? Go along with the plan? DMs story and all that? I don’t know much about dragon heist and this ilithids sposed to be a miniboss or something. The combat encounter sounds fun but I’m afraid of the lost potential for my character
TLDR: dm wants possessed character to attack party. Character thinks it’s a waste of character. Looking for third option.
Okay, so the Detect Evil and Good spell has informed your party that there is an "aberration, Celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or Undead" in your spot. And your character is aware of this, according to your DM.
What would the goal of this ambush at this point be? Can your character prevail on their own against the entire rest of the party? I am guessing that chances for victory would be very slim. If the goal of your ambush is to defeat the party, try to stall for time. I'd propose: find a different explanation for what the detection spell told them. Tell your DM that an ambush at this point would be strategically unsound and rather try weaseling your way out.
If you want to save the character, ask your DM about possibilities to destroy the parasite and restore the original brain. Maybe you can have it both ways, to die and then be restored?
I'll have help in the ambush, ilithid master to the rescue to save his favorite pet sorta thing. I think the goal of the ambush is to kill the ilithid and all his minions, and reveal a new npc ally to the party.
I've told my Dm I think the plan itself is good, just poorly timed, but he's gonna go ahead with it anyway. I like your idea of stalling and weaseling though. Maybe I can get one of the other characters to trap me in a conversation/ interrogation it could be fine, but if they all go to sleep then it's going down.
1. Put out a bowl of gummy worms at the beginning of the session
2. Steal this idea
3. Profit
Has anyone ever told you that you look like Cortez from "the road to El Dorado"
I think the reason that they didn't think Remove Curse would have worked is because the descriptions you gave for the Autophage were almost purely biological. Treating it like a disease or illness makes sense, but curses have a magical feel to them. These didn't feel magical, just worms working really well together.
look at that synth.
at first i thought it was Swarm of Rot Grubs lol, interesting
A worm that walks could have been used for your worms, just drop the spell casting.
Isn't that the same as a Spawn of Kyuss?
I forgot tonight was Wednesday
I was happy the mind killer got retconned. And I would like to see more of the city. Go to the Opera and the Tieflig village. Also King wanted to recruit more Chain members. I think that would be interesting.
IMHO, there's been far too much reliance on subverting player agency already in this campaign.
And yeah, it feels like the Chain still don't really know that much about Capital. Even things that really seem like they should be pretty straightforward seem like pulling teeth for them to find out.
Players: Wait, it's just worms?
Matt, pointing gun at their heads: Always has been.
Fuckin sweet campaign so far.
Am I the only one who is disappointed at none of them making "Shaun of the Dead" jokes after all those times "You got a worm on you" was said?
YAY!!! RTG is life!!! Well, The Chain is pretty awesome too I guess... 🤪
YES I LOVE WEDNESDAYS
I'm my personal experience, most players HATE it when the DM starts telling them how to rollplay there charector. Some people really don't like having their agency over their PC's actions infringed.
I'm not saying don't do a PC possession storyline, but there are a lot of pitfalls with it so be very careful in how you do it.
AS Matt comments - know your players and when this comes up know who is really not going to go for this, especially if its a mid to longer term effect
Have read all the spells that do exactly that? Come on, You can't say- I don't want to lose.
@@acm4bass The issue isn't mind control per se - losing control of your character sucks, but hey, you failed the save - but handing the player a note telling them what to do. Some players aren't going to find that fun.
Dudes everywhere. It is quite dramatic! Most players I know would have relished the idea.
Nert
Heh, it was definitely Lars, if those quotes are accurate. Only other person I could see using those words would maybe be Phil, but Matt had said the mind-killer was afraid of Gith, so it trying to burrow into the mind of one doesn't make much sense. The situation does have value for a GM tips/Running the Game lesson, but it's kind of weird that Matt would be so descriptive about the person's reaction when he was trying to keep it anonymous, since it really points out who it was if you've watched the streams at all. Unless I'm completely wrong.
Why do you think it was Lars from that description? (Do you mean that it wouldn't be fun or dramatic is the giveaway?)
@@bamzolino Matt mentioned last episode that he likes playing the enemies a little dumb so the kind killer went after the person with the highest wisdom save, and the person “shockingly” failed. Obviously King
Great video matt love this stuff also if you wanted a man worm monster there is the Worm that Walks in Mordenkein tome of foes classic monster from HP lovecraft
I would have pulled back on the gross descriptions. It felt like Anna was about to get up and walk away^^. Not everyone has the same threshold for certain types of horror
That worm encounter sounds great, particularly because it invites all manner of creative solutions, as all burrowing parasite type monsters invite. Could you Shocking Grasp to kill the worms inside the victim? Would Gaseous Form leave the parasite high and dry? How about Etherealness? The players will always come up with some outside the box thought process to escape certain doom, and that's one of the things that makes TRPGs so fun.
Keep doing what your doing. Informative as always great show. Though at the last hour that was a b**** move on the player's behalf.
Doug Kovacs (Dungeon Crawl Classics) made an excellent one-off RPG called Meat Planet, which involves PC possession.
goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/MeatPlanet-e1552623947881.jpg
I hate possession as a game mechanic and anything like it. When you ask players to work against each other they very rarely enjoy it. It asks a level of sportsmanship that is certainly more than I am capable of and is probably more than the person my character is now attacking is capable of.
@Marvalontal yeah, accept the DM is probably not that attached to what ever the players are mind controlling. And the problem is not them refusing to play, it is that they are not enjoying it. Most players like working as a team. Some players love the change of pace that mind control brings, others are miserable. The example in this campaign is not unusual.
I tried it a few sessions ago and the players loved it, they got to fight each other with teapots. Just target the right player and be sure to have an easy get-out option if it's not working.
@Marvalontal If the players abuse it then sure, tip for tap. Mind flayers and aboleths have the key weakness that attacking them can break concentration, and you do not have to target the PCs. For example turning an NPC against them or planting misinformation. These are insidious and creepy. Taking control of the barbarian, having them rage and recklessly attack the cleric etc may be thoroughly enjoyed by the kind of player that wants more PvP but I think that is not the majority of players and it is asking too much to say that all players should be down for this.
@@vampiremonkeyonspeed I am curious, what was your easy get-out option?
@@BBP081 Protection from Evil and Good or Magic Circle are spells that can break mind control quite well. If one of the unpossessed party members has this prepared, the problem can be easily solved.
Apart from mechanics, the DM can rule that the possessing creature decides that the combat is unwinnable and gives up.
I always find in DnD, s*** happens. You just find a way out of it somehow.
You can go through different madness problems (OOTA) or have a curse (TOA)
It's all part and parcel of going through and becoming a hero.
I get it that it's just a game and games are meant to be fun but there is always summat you're not gonna like and it's like that with EVERY type of game (e.g street fighter - only using Chun li, E Honda or Blanka. Monopoly - someone who always get the best ones) you overcome and move on.
For someone to say "I don't like it" unless it's a uncomfortable topic (I don't think I need to explain that) then just ride it out, it might actually be fun or you may be able to do "summat". One day you'll be saved and maybe through the experience you'll gain summat (the ghost had been around for many years and knew lots of languages which now YOU know)
In my last sesh of OOTA I suffered 3 different madness. God it was a pain because we couldn't get owt done but we went along with it and it was a laugh in the end.
Agreed. Unless the activity is crossing some kind of boundary, like its a personal taboo topic not covered by session ) or whatever, it seems like you should at least give it a go. The whole game is give and take. That said, I think Matt made the right call to avoid conflict with a player who was not looking forward to the next session and it was an encounter that didn't really matter. I can't really imagine being that player myself though, wouldn't occur to me to just say "Nah."
For the purpose of the stream i agree Matt made a good call. Just nip in the bud and call it a day. No problems or arguments.
However i bet he is gonna subconsciously be double guessing himself in case it happens again.
Being a DM does take work and we as DMs take care to make sure that the stuff on the table is memorable, yeah some parts will suck for X and Y reasons but you'll remember how you sorted it...
"Remember when you was blind for 4 weeks?"
"Yeah but the look on the big bad's face when i got the cure and said I SEE YOU"
For the good to be epic you need it to "somewhat" suck a bit of the time.
In a campaign i ran i had two players who wanted to best each other (only one had the stats to back it up) when the weaker one died... i had his body taken by vampires and had him turned, guess what the new "NPC" did....... beat up and robbed the other player of all his stuff lol
He was sooo pi**ed but vowed revenge. It was amazing
@Matthew Colville are you not doing any more campaign diaries?
I don't like assuming a right conclusion.