Doug, as always, a really great video! And this time about a precious topic for me and something that I think should be much more discussed. You nailed this about Dante, theory and practical as you always do. As an early Midi pioneer in the 80´s, the benefits of a universal interface controlling music gear amazed the world. And the fact that the standard still is in use 100% waiting for version 2 some 40 years later shows is simplicity and strengths in a open architecture. But, for audio, it took many more years of development. Ofcourse, we talk higher bandwidths, realtime audio, sync, networking issues and a lot..... so yes, there are now a full garden of standards, more or less expensive and with different levels of using ethernet standards (in the levels) and also more or less expensive licensing models for manufacturers. I really hope that Dante can be a more or less universal standard. As you state in your video, when you are coming to the venues, it's more common they are equipped with a Dante infrastructure. That is a real benefit and makes venue integration of audio so easier. What I also love about Dante is the more and more wide spread adoption by manufacturers. The integration of Dante interfaces to audio devices are now, as you present, coming into channel level adapters in a really affordable level. This is the Midi for audio. In som many environments. Simple, affordable, scalable and hopefully a unifying standard.
The MOST complete and thorough explanation of Dante that I've heard or seen. Every question that sprang up in my head during his explanation he answered as I was asking it. Thank God I don't have to click through countless amateurs fumbling through knowledge. Thank you for this video.
Also, with the AVIO USB adapter: presenters can unplug and re-plug the adapter all day long with no clicks or pops! That's probably the case with the analog as well? Either way, this is one of the greatest advantages of Dante compared to AES50 or other analog solutions. Great video as always Doug! Curious to see how you use the X32, also curious about your solar setup that I just noticed in this video.
Incredibly informative and well done video- thanks! Many useful details that I hadn’t found elsewhere. We use Dante plus Ravenna (Merging) for stereo and ATMOS studio. What an incredibly useful tech. BTW, has any extension been proposed, or has anyone found a way to have a multicast ignore a range or specific connections (i.e. to reduce wasted bandwidth)? Maybe sub zones/nets or something else?
OK so half an hour ago I knew nothing about Dante other than the broad principle, so thank you! Not sure if you'll be able to advise, and not even sure that there might not be something much simpler and cheaper than Dante that would do what I need perfectly well: I'm in the process of planning the wiring of our home network and the plan so far is to have two ethernet wall plates in each of four rooms, all connected to a managed switch. I was planning to split these into two basic networks (vlans) - one for internet access to each room, and the second network connecting to my "office" which would be a bit like a studio control room, with the other three rooms being like studio "live rooms", with a PC or laptop in each room for AD/DA Obviously I need to install cable at the right spec, as it's going to be a huge amount of work and I don't want to have to do it all over again in a few years! So bottom line: How important is the spec of the network cable used for audio over IP? Does it need to be shielded and should I be using 5e, 6a, or doesn't it matter? The house isn't particularly big so we're not talking about more than 25 to 30 metre runs of cable to the switch. Thanks ! :)
Thanks for this excellent overview! We have a venue where the mics are controlled by a touch panel but we can’t see levels. Is there some relatively inexpensive PC software where we could see the levels if we route the mic audio to the PC over Dante? Or maybe even a hardware “level monitor?”
Hi doug, really nice video. I would like to ask you a question. I have 2 mixer, allen heath dlive and midas m32. If the dlive have dante 64x64 card and the m32 have dn32-dante, can i connect both mixer directly using ethernet cable to use it as FOH and monitor mixer, or do i need to use additional device to connect both mixer?
You could connect them directly, but I'd strongly advise getting an Ethernet switch to go between them. That will let you incorporate a computer so you can easily route the signals on your Dante network.
Hi Doug, Thanks for this straight forward video! I am struggling with mixing multi-track in Daw(Ableton) from x32 due to a long distance, do you think the USB Adapter I/O 2-CH will help even though I have a regular sound interface in my x32?
If you were to add a Dante card to your X32, and then run an Ethernet cable (be that copper or fiber) to your computer, using either one of Audinate's USB-based AVIO adapters, or a standard Ethernet adapter with the Dante Virtual Soundcard software, you would be able to have access to audio from your mixer. In the case of the AVIO you'd get 2 channels, or in the case of Dante Virtual Sound Card, up to 32 channels. But either of those solutions does require a Dante card in your X32. If you didn't want to bother with that expense and can get away with just two channels you could get one of the AVIOs (or a few AVIOs for more channels) with analog input or output for the mixer end of the connection, but at that point it's easier to just use analog cables to start with. But if you're getting to the point where you're buying more than a couple AVIOs you'd be better off just getting the proper card for the X32 and get real native, all-digital multi-channel support. For runs of up to (about) 100 meters a standard copper Ethernet cable would work just fine. But if you need to go farther you could go with fiber optic cable. Media converters to convert between copper and fiber are getting pretty inexpensive, and fiber cables are surprisingly affordable too -- less than $1 per meter these days. I'd recommend you go with single mode fiber (look for blue connectors) and single mode SFP modules. Cables and SFPs with LC connectors on the cables will get you the cheapest reliable solution. And if you're working in an environment where the cable is subject to being run over or stepped on, go with armored cable rather than the standard stuff for better durability; it adds a metal shield wrap around the fiber to help protect it. Another solution for the X32 series is to use one of Behringer's digital snakes like the S16 or S32. They use AES50, which is kind of like Dante, but point-to-point rather than point to multi-point. The X32s supports AES50 natively and don't need an interface card. That would get you an analog connection of mulitple channels near your computer where you could use your choice of audio interfaces to connect it. But these, too, are limited to 100 meters and I don't believe can be converted to fiber if you need to go any farther.
Hi How do I add Skype TX caller over the Dante network through Tricaster. On tricaster TC1 , Once I connect the Skype tx call, I can’t take the caller sound to the studio monitor (soundbox) at the moment the host only listen through talkback. So if there are few more guests in the studio they can’t hear what the Skype caller is saying.
Any benefits to using Dante instead of JACK2? I get that there's XLR input/output hardware, but purely as the virtual soundcard features it seems JACK2 is the same thing and free, although is a bit nerdy to setup over a network especially.
@@djp_video Guess so, but I was looking at it from the persepctive of the virtual soundcard device is just software like JACK2 is an audio server. The main benefot of JACK2 is it can take as many channels from A to B as you want. I take 128 channels from my DAW into Davinci Resolve for example, it works fine, but clearly this is in the box, not interfacing to external digital or analogue audio inputs.
The easiest solution is to use the Aux busses on the TF5, one (or two) per performer. They can use the MonitorMix app to control their own mixes if they'd like.
Have you seen any small 1U or 2U rackmount Dante mixers? It seems the X32 is an old unit - is it still available? The Presonus 16R is a 1U unit but they have an external device for Dante.
The X32 Rack is 3U high, so it wouldn't qualify. I haven't really shopped for one myself, but check Audinate's database of Dante-enabled products: www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled
There was Behringer X32 Core years ago (now discontinues as I know) but I'm curious too if there are some 1U/2U racks just as a unit even without inputs/outputs. Just with optional Dante card.
@@BuriTechVids So far the best I have found is the Presonus 16R with their new AVB-Dante interface. That would take 2U's - www.presonus.com/products/AVB-D16
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@@BuriTechVids X32 Core is discontinued but it seems Midas M32C is not (it's the same unit just with less front panel controls)
I'm so so super grateful 🙏 for this video. It's the best comprehensive piece packed with so much knowledge. Thank you for this. Can you please help me with a piece on using DAW like Reaper & Ableton Live for live mix to live streaming broadcast?
@@djp_video however, if I had that same Yamaha mixer that you have with the Dante card, couldn't I just bring the xlr's out and then into the Multitrack since they would sit side by side in the truck?
@@kduane1 It doesn’t have a recorder built-in, but if you connect it to a computer with USB (or Dante using Virtual Sound Card) you can record isolated tracks there with the included Nuendo Live software.
Look.. It would work, as well as NDI works over WiFi.. BUT.. it will work before the show. When then people will come there with theirs smartphones which every device do some traffic even they are not connected to specify WiFI netowrk, your network will be very very unstable. And sometimes it don't have to be many people. Sometimes it can be just 1 device which is bad and do a lot of interference in 2.4/5 GHz frequencies..
I'm not even sure that it would work at all with many access points. WiFi isn't really Ethernet and it may not handle Dante traffic properly. It certainly won't have latency low enough for what Dante expects.
@@djp_video ok but could I send a feed then through the xlr female to the adapter ( Audinate Dante AVIO) to a switch back to Audinate Bluetooth IO Adapter to send a blue audio feed to my Producer or director would this work ??
pretty much like this but ghza meening internal frecventy and transfer data so !more fine and detailed data less channel! same like any digital protccol! this one is dante !
Thank You for this channel. I have a question. I know it’s recommended to keep the audio on a separate LAN, however, please advise. How do I separate the LAN from my network and still use DVS from another LAN to capture the audio from a DAW on Dante network to OBS on the other LAN?
This is the most comprehensive and easy to understand overview of Dante I have come across. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the technology until I saw this video. Thanks.
Spoke to Ricki Cook about Dante at a conference, as he was one of the people that worked on it before it was even called Dante. I’m glad I found this video because he convinced me that this is the future.
This is awesome Doug! I've been learning about Dante on my own and you summed up what I learned (plus added more) in 20-30 minutes (since I watch at 1.5 speed :)
Great introductory video Doug! For fun, I did Dante Levels 1-3 in about half a day, and I would encourage others to take advantage of the (free) Audinate training. If you have a good networking background, then it's quite straightforward to attain. I really liked your practical implementations which leverage Dante; it really consolidated the theory. It definitely is one of those "light bulb moment" technologies, when you realise just what can be achieved with various components. I am only slightly disappointed my A&H Qu-16 doesn't support it!
This was very informative and finally made me see and understand the big picture of how Dante can simplify audio/video production. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I look forward to watching other videos on how to setup and use this technology on the fly.
Your video is really helpful. I'm an IT engineer so I know IP very well. I'm also an audiophile. I think Dante is an awesome marriage of those two technologies. I can't wait to roll it out at my house.
Thanks for your great info. All I want to do at this point is install a Dante card into my Midas m32r, run an app off of my computer called Jamzone which is a multitrack player of pre recorded cover songs used to perform live. Its currently sending just 2 channels out in stereo or there’s an option to split the tracks into 2 mono tracks to send a click out one channel and the summed tracks out another. Here’s my question: couldn’t I just use the Dante usb to Ethernet adapter from my laptop or iOS device into the installed card on my Midas m32r and then route the audio to an input Chanel etc? Your advice on this would be highly appreciated. Would of course be willing to pay you for helping me to get this up and running. I know I can just take a usb c cable out ( which is what I’m doing now) of my MacBook Pro or iPad pad pro and run it into my mixer but I’m wanting a much cleaner signal and eventually want to utilize the vast capabilities of the Dante networking ecosystem. Thank you for your time.
The AVIO adapters (USB to Ethernet) only support two channels, so you don't gain much with those. Dante Virtual Soundcard would let you output many channels from your computer. A Dante card for your Midas would probably be a good idea, but it wouldn't give you much of an advantage over what you're doing now. The biggest upgrade would be flexible routing of audio channels on the Dante network. But I should mention that the audio quality isn't likely to be any better over Dante compared to a USB connection to your mixer -- both would be the same pure digital 48kHz 24-bit audio.
@@djp_video For this application 2 channels is all I need. My main question was can I just plug directly into the Dante card and then assign channels on the mixer to output the sound from my computer or iOS device.
I bounced in my chair when you mentioned multicast @ 18:00 Asa network engineer we can also run mirror ports, so if you have a live tx device and a recording device we could mirror your traffic to a recording device. We can also control the multicast recievers by using PIM where only subscriber nodes will recieve the intended traffic. Would love to learn more about how you handle timing if you have multiple input streams hitting a 'controller' or 'reciever' node in your DANTE network.
Finally! A view that actually outlines Dante and gives use-case/example setups to drive it home. The others start off at the basics then quickly evolve into ultra-complicated topics. Thanks for this!
Physical distance doesn't really come into play in any practical applications. Ethernet has a 100m limitation with copper cables, but fiber can go much, much farther. The number of network switches between devices should be kept low to reduce the signal switching/propagation delays where possible to do so.
So I’m a little confused do you need a router to be in the network in order to assign IP address to the different devices or Can you just use switchs and POE switch to Connect all your devices together?
No router is required. Devices will assign their own 169.254.x.x IP addresses and be able to find one another. It's actually Audinate's recommended configuration.
Great video. Thanks for making this. I prefer AVB because of it being an open standard no licensing costs. Presonus and Motu are dedicated to AVB and that works for me. I also like being able to easily use MADI with AVB. Dante is pretty cool and even focusrite's implementation of Dante they call RedNet is cool. There are like 4 other network audio protocols, but Dante and AVB are really the winners. Be interesting to see what iconnectivity implements.
I investigated AVB, but the lack of networking hardware with proper management features and inability to be routed made it a non-starter for me. I couldn't do much of what I'm doing with my trailer with AVB. You also don't find much support from the most prominent audio gear manufacturers.
@@djp_video motu pro can route any avb signal anywhere even if there is no interface hooked up to the computer you want to send audio to. It is pretty complicated to matrix your way through it, but once you set it up you don't really have to touch it again. I hope both succeed as it will make both better in the long run. Rednet is too expensive for me, but motu avb I can do. Multi computer DAW systems are definitely the way to go especially from a performance standpoint. I have 4 computers running things for my live setup using avb for audio and NDI for all the video. I'm all in on this network stuff lol.
The type of routing I’m referring to is IP, like between network subnets. AVB can’t do that. And that’s something I need in my trailer. Additionally, I also need managed switches for my network and I couldn’t find any that support AVB. RedNet is extremely expensive. There are a lot of Dante products that are a lot more accessible than those. The X32 series from Behringer is very popular because if is very capable and yet still affordable, and they have a Dante option card. I interact regularly with someone pretty high up at Audinate and I can tell you with 100% surety that they are very aware of their reputation for being expensive and they are actively trying to fix that. They do have affordable chips available but they’re having a hard time convincing equipment manufacturers that Dante should be in more budget friendly equipment. Things are changing, albeit slowly. I don’t think AVB is catching on. The only major audio equipment manufacturers that seem to have adopted it are PreSonus and MOTU. So you only get one choice of manufacturer for mixers, and it happens to be from a company whose products are so unreliable I wouldn’t use them as boat anchors (I’ve owned three PreSonus mixers, and all three died early deaths, just after the warranty expired.) The MOTU stuff is fine, but their products are mostly limited to just audio interfaces. Dante isn’t perfect, but it is just about everywhere now. Most major manufacturers have products that support it. You’ll find it in most entertainment venues now. Being able to pull into a venue, plug in a single Ethernet cable and have access to all of their audio sources is pretty amazing. And being able to use the existing Ethernet network at many locations even if they don’t already have Dante is pretty convenient too.
FYI - Office Hours Global 2023 Year End Review: Business (Christmas Day 2023?), at 38:10 into the TH-cam stream, Alex Lindsay had two definitive opinions on Dante: 1) He loves Dante and uses it in every day in every project, 2) He hates Dante Via and says he never uses it. How does he really feel about it? "Dante Via is a rolling dumpster fire that came straight out of hell."
Dante Via is, as he mentioned, a bit of a dumpster fire. Very inconsistent and can be unreliable. The latency it creates is also higher than I like to see. Dante itself has its quirks. But I don't know that we can blame Dante in and of itself for those... when I've had problems with Dante it has always been a configuration issue with the network itself, not with any Dante device.
How did you see the aux busses and program busses in Dante controller FROM your TF series? Is that a TF series-only feature? I’m on a QL5 and on Dante controller, on my receiver (Dante Virtual Sound card into PC for records), only see Dante 1-64 “inputs” on coming from the transmitting QL5. How is the heck dare you seeing/sending your Aux/Matrix feeds in Dante controller in your transmitter sends?
By default it's just 64 numbered inputs and outputs. I took the time to relabel them in Dante Controller based on their function so I can always tell what I'm connecting. The user manual for the mixer (page 106) shows which channel is what. (Keep in mind that the TF series doesn't have any internal routing -- Channel 1 input always maps to channel one of the selected source, whether that be analog input, USB, or the Dante card -- it can't take Dante channel 5 and route it to channel 1, for example. Of course you can still route your Dante signals however you'd like.)
@@djp_video Thank you Doug for answering so quickly (love your channel and content btw!!). I guess what I'm wondering is......if by default, we see inputs 1-64 in Dante Controller.....and yes, I get that you renamed them to "Aux 1, Aux 2, Program Left, Program Right, etc," I still don't quite understand HOW an aux/mix buss would show up in that 1-64 bank on the transmitters section in Dante Controller. Are you just going to, for example, "Mix bus 1" on the console, going to that mix bus' outputs, and routing it to multiple destinations, for example, Omni 1, PLUS Dante 23 for example? I know you aren't the user manual, so, I will have to read-up on it, I just don't quite understand how/if you're able to actually pull your aux/Mix1 bus mix audio over Dante. Will certainly be trying to figure it out on my end. Thanx again Doug, keep up the great work!
I have a question: I’m getting a tio box to put in a synth cart with an old field pit for a marching band. I have a tf1 with 16 channels, however, I am using all 16 inputs on the tf1. With the stage box will I be able to use the inputs on the back of my mixer AND the mixer on the stage box for a total of 32? Or am i looking at this wrong? Thank you
Yes, you can use both. After connecting the Tio to the TF over Ethernet, you can map any of the Tio's inputs to any of the TF's channels... so you could have Tio input 1 on TF Input 17, and so forth.
It has a digital AES3 input and a digital AES3 output. If you need analog connectivity you can use one of the analog AVIO adapters. And you can map connections between the two using Dante Controller.
I few months ago we went from using an X32 console without Dante to running an Allen & Heath Avantis with a Dante card. Originally I though I might use it just for multitrack recording and virtual soundcheck, but I have steadily found more ways to use Dante. Now I am sending audio to four different Dante devices (Avantis for FOH and streaming mixes, X32 Rack for monitor mixing, FOH computer for multitrack and plugin processing, and a Mac Mini via one of the Audinate 2x2 USB dongles) and have just about maxed out the 64x64 card in the Avantis. We probably send more than 64 unique audio channels throughout the system, but not all of it is routed through the Avantis. It really has been a great addition to our system.
Dante is really only the data transport and it isn’t involved in creating any mixes. If the connected mixer can build the mix you need then yes you can. If it can’t then no
Thank you Doug for the explanation on Dante. We have it at church, but I do not know enough to even talk about it yet. I hear they have an audio contractor for various items. I will continue to read up on this. Take care.
One tip from me is to look at the Allen & Heath SQ5 mixer with dante card, along with the Allen & Heath DT168 dante stagebox. The DT168 can also be controlled with software (without the need for the SQ5). Great high quality mixer and preamps!
Thank you for the insights Doug. Question: Do you run your system DHCP or static ip? I found when I tried to integrate my Dante gear into a venue’s Dante network, my devices could not get onto the same ip range and had to add a router which changed all the ips to 192.168.XX.XX How do you find most venues running their Dante systems? My experience was not as "plug and play" as I had hoped.
I either use DHCP or auto-assigned addresses… never static IPs. When I’m at a venue that has Dante I’ll plug into their network and let my system take on the same IP scheme that they’re already using, whether that be DHCP or auto-assign addresses. When I’m working somewhere that doesn’t have Dante I just let the adapters auto-assign 169.254.x.x addresses. Dante devices find each other by name to do signal routing… the IP addresses don’t matter so assigning them yourself just adds complexity and frustration. This is how Audinate recommends that Dante networks be setup, and I’ve found that it works better than trying to use static addresses.
A similar concept, yes. But fully uncompressed, more mature, and with fewer limitations due to the lower bandwidth requirements of audio compared to video.
wow. that was awesome awesome awesome info download. Id always vaguely heard of dante but this was the first time I took a proper look at it. Glad I started with your channel.
Great work and presentation - a bit over head for me but Would love to see a chart - indicating all your connections - in a simple network. My question is that you mentioned getting audio from all sources connected to the network on a simple computer or u saying u can run that audio in your existing "DAW" software. and with the actual Mixer those sources routed there are they controlled via the hardware or in software as you shown in your video --- Thanks take your time..
The network itself can be thought of as just the Dante devices plugged into a network switch. I have multiple switches, but that doesn’t really matter. All of the connections take place in software. The physical network doesn’t really come into play much. The problem with doing a diagram is that I don’t really have a consistent setup. I could certainly list off what devices I have on my Dante network, but the way the audio is routed is different for every event. I rebuild the Dante routing from scratch for each event based on whatever the audio needs are at the time and the capabilities of the venue (whether it has its own Dante network or not). Sometimes I’m literally just patching into the Front of House main output, but in other situations I might patch into individual sound sources (microphones) to build my own mix. With that said, any audio source on the Dante network is available to be mapped into a computer, and therefore into a DAW. I don’t need a separate sound card interface. The Dante Virtual Soundcard software emulates a sound card and allows me to bring any individual microphone or other sound source to be recorded into the DAW.
@@djp_video thanks just doing research for future investment, watched a few other videos, I get it now. Each source has its own amount of output channels via the app which you can find in your daw or other recording software…
How would Incorporate Dante into my Current Set up? I have an 8 Channel Analog Mixer, I am a Musician who was thinking of purchasing a Midi Keyboard but thinking adding Dante will be more cost-effective seeing as a Synth I have already has Midi! I just have a tricky apartment space to use for recording etc... Also sometimes doing Music Lessons online. I don't have an Ethernet Port on my Synth or XLR Outputs (Yamaha Modx8 is my Synth) I can plug into my computer on a Busy Channel Day I would probably have a Channel for a Guitar DI Box, Vox Mic, Guitar Mic and Keyboard, There is also reverb plugin In Logic I like so I would Imagine the purchase of Mainstage would be ideal too for live performance?
With a setup that size, Dante may not make sense for you. Think of Dante as a replacement for large numbers or long audio cables. It works really well, but if you're only dealing with a few channels or short runs it may not make sense, as you have to have Dante adapters to convert the analog audio to digital and then often need additional converters to go the other way as well. One of the least expensive multi-channel adapters is the Yamaha Tio1608-D, but at $1000 just to get audio in and out of the Dante network, it doesn't always pay off.
Usually the way those things work is that you select (route) the source for each of your main 16 channels -- channel 1 and 2 might come from Dante, where channels 3-4 might be XLR inputs, for example. They normally don't add additional channels on top of what you already have. Each time you select Dante as the source for a channel you'll lose access to the corresponding analog input. But it does vary by model.
Ethernet is the future of all cables. Funny how Apple had the idea to remove it from their laptops. Ethernet should replace USB and HDMI one day. It is hostless unlike USB.
Current Ethernet implementations generally top out at 1 Gb/sec. While 10 Gb or 40 Gb is available, it's still relatively uncommon, expensive, and power hungry. USB is currently available at 20 Gb/sec, with 40 Gb/sec available on the newest devices. HDMI does 48 Gb/sec. So the other connection types have a significant speed advantage at the moment.
There are a lot of similarities. Dante is primarily audio and NDI is primarily video, but, yes, they are similar in a lot of ways. The big differences come from the bandwidth required to perform each of these functions. Whereas with audio you can do hundreds of channels uncompressed on a gigabit network, with video even a single stream has to fit within what gigabit can handle. The compression on NDI varies from practically visually lossless to downright near unusable depending on what version of it you use. That compression adds latency as well. So where the latency with Dante is just about impossible to perceive, the latency with NDI does cause some issues in some workflows. I'd never use NDI if I was doing IMAG, for example.
I was asked to look into DANTE for a customer network! This is a great introduction. Just a query. Where you have dual Ethernet out, can you configure the networking to send the signal out both interfaces and let the network equipment process both sources? I'm thinking of of a situation where the fibre/CAT6 is damaged and we need instantaneous switchover to a second feed to remove the drop in Tx?
The dual connections are usually for redundancy and can't really be used to create separate networks/streams to multiple sets of devices. Some devices can be reconfigured to have the second port to basically act as a switch to pass traffic from the primary port so you can daisy chain devices, but that isn't part of the official, required standard; normally the two ports are meant for redundancy. When used with the redundancy feature enabled, you create two completely separate networks with their own cabling and switches and plug the primary port of a Dante card/device into one network and the secondary network into the second port. If the primary network fails, it will automatically and seamlessly fail over to the secondary without interruption.
Hi! I have a few questions: Can I use the same LAN I already have for Dante also? Does the Dante router need a DHCP server? If the Dante network is connected to a wifi network, can I access the Dante Controller through wifi?
You can use the same LAN, but they recommend that it be separate. It's more reliable that way. Dante actually works best without DHCP or static IP addresses. The self-assigned IP addresses (169.254.x.x) work really well. I haven't tried using Dante Controller over WiFi, but I assume it should work.
Hey everyone! I'm currently running a studio setup in my basement with two Presonus mixers (Studiolive 64S and 32R), managing about 56 inputs that feed into my Windows computer via USB. I'm eyeing a transition to a Dante solution to streamline my workflow and expand capabilities. Any suggestions on the best approach for this transition? Should I consider upgrading my mixers or are there specific Dante interfaces that would seamlessly integrate with my current setup? Looking forward to your insights! Thanks
With your StudioLive 64S and 32R you already have AVB, which is a similar standard which also lets you send audio over an Ethernet network. In terms of just swapping over to Dante, unlike some of the StudioLive mixers yours doesn't support expansion cards, so you can't just swap out a card to switch from AVB to Dante. PreSonus is pretty firmly in the AVB camp and their Dante support is weak. AVB isn't quite as popular as Dante, and getting it up and going is a little bit different -- for example with AVB you need network switches which are designed to support AVB, but many of the capabilities of the two technologies are similar. You'll likely find that there are lot more options out there in terms of devices which support Dante vs AVB, but for many applications the end result between the two is similar, even if the way to go about it differs a little. If you like your current mixer and want to stick with it, there are boxes out there that convert between AVB and Dante. PreSonus has their own PreSonus AVB-D16. Both technologies also support AES67 (allegedly anyway), and that could in theory be used to bridge between the two, but I can't find any documentation on how to do that on the AVB side of things. (For Dante, it's just a checkbox in Dante Controller.) If, on the other hand, you find that AVB doesn't give you the capabilities you desire, and you are looking to replace your mixer, there are many good options out there that either speak Dante natively or have expansion cards available.
@@djp_video Wow! Super honored. Thanks so much for your responce. I have the AVB switches for this setup... I am looking to switch over to Dante fully. What mixer or solution would you suggest?
That's such a personal decision that I almost hate to offer much in the way of suggestions. I like my Yamaha TF mixers, but they're designed for live work and they'd be awkward in a studio (that isn't really Yamaha's strength) and many audio professionals don't like the simplified interface. Drop into my Discord server and ask there in the audio channel. There are going to be others there that have more experience with that type of gear than I currently do.
Doug, around 21:25 - 'a multicast flow goes to every device on your network....' - i don't think that is correct. multicast stream/flow of packets should only go to devices subscribed to that multicast address. please confirm.... ?
They're only routed to destination devices if you have a smart/managed switch and IGMP snooping is enabled. For the typical switch you get at your local electronics retailer multicast traffic is treated just like broadcast traffic.
Dante itself is audio only. There is a Dante AV technology that also does video as well. That's a separate technology not addressed in this video, and (frankly) hasn't really caught on.
Thank you for the explanation. i have two questions, i saw LAN interface on one of your TF1 mixer, is that ok to use the LAN to connect with dante? do we need dhcp server for IP assignment?
The mixer has three LAN ports -- one that is just for remote control of the mixer from their iOS/Android/Windows/Mac apps, and the other two are Dante -- one primary, and one secondary. I currently have those ports setup to act as a switch, but they can be reconfigured to act as primary and backup. You can use DHCP, but Audinate recommends that you don't and let the Dante devices use auto-configured IP addresses in the 169.254.x.x subnet. It's just easier that way. You can use the same LAN for Dante if you want, though this might not be a wise idea if your LAN is already pretty busy.
Excellent review Doug. I am an Audio Engineer just finished my course last year just before Coronavirus hit and did the Dante Level 1 and Level 2 certifications also on my own time. I also did Waves SoundGrid certification Level 1 and Level 2. I heard that Dante Domain Manager is the newest thing but you need Level 3 first. Do you recommend this course of action to try and acquire work in this pandemic?
Finish your Level 3 before anything else. You won’t really understand DDM very well without it. DDM is a whole new level of complexity and something you likely will not need to concern yourself with unless you’re the engineer for a large facility
Really good video introducing Dante. Well done Doug! Of course, some care is needed re planning / implementing good network traffic management to make sure it doesn't get impacted at the worst possible moments, but that's beyond a basic intro.
How do you then embed your Dante audio into video. I looked at the AVIO AES3/EBU adaptors but they seem to output to XLR not 1/4” Jack which is what the BMD embedder accepts..? Am I missing something?
I use the XLR audio inputs on my ATEM switcher to embed the final audio mix. With that said, AES/EBU is a great way to transport audio by keeping it in the digital domain, avoiding conversions. In your case the only thing you need is a simple adapter to go from XLR to TRS (1/4"). The signals sent over XLR and TRS are identical, so a simple adapter or cable with the right connectors will take care of it for you.
@@djp_video thanks Doug. I may be being over ambitious and my current way of working (via XLR) is perfectly adequate. Having encountered some gremlins with AES50 recently for non-video work, I’m weighing up options for how I might move towards Dante or MADI, with an eye on versatility in video work too. I like the idea of digital throughout the chain. Have you ever considered sending your Dante in via AES3/EBU?
@@djp_video would you say MADI (although included on the 4M/E) is gradually being replaced by Dante for video production? Or do they serve different use cases?
Gradually, yes. Dante is much more flexible since you can route any source to any number of destinations, whereas MADI is basically all channels from point A to point B. Dante also works over existing Ethernet networks which provides a huge advantage in that new cabling doesn't have to be installed.
Doug, as always, a really great video! And this time about a precious topic for me and something that I think should be much more discussed. You nailed this about Dante, theory and practical as you always do. As an early Midi pioneer in the 80´s, the benefits of a universal interface controlling music gear amazed the world. And the fact that the standard still is in use 100% waiting for version 2 some 40 years later shows is simplicity and strengths in a open architecture. But, for audio, it took many more years of development. Ofcourse, we talk higher bandwidths, realtime audio, sync, networking issues and a lot..... so yes, there are now a full garden of standards, more or less expensive and with different levels of using ethernet standards (in the levels) and also more or less expensive licensing models for manufacturers. I really hope that Dante can be a more or less universal standard. As you state in your video, when you are coming to the venues, it's more common they are equipped with a Dante infrastructure. That is a real benefit and makes venue integration of audio so easier. What I also love about Dante is the more and more wide spread adoption by manufacturers. The integration of Dante interfaces to audio devices are now, as you present, coming into channel level adapters in a really affordable level. This is the Midi for audio. In som many environments. Simple, affordable, scalable and hopefully a unifying standard.
Great video! Thank you for the very comprehensive Dante Explaination!
I'm new to the industry and have just discovered Dante. Kinda blowing my mind lol...
Really nice and useful intro, thanks!
Best explanation for me so far. Thank you!
Thank you so much for this video. Dante Network is so flexible.
The MOST complete and thorough explanation of Dante that I've heard or seen. Every question that sprang up in my head during his explanation he answered as I was asking it. Thank God I don't have to click through countless amateurs fumbling through knowledge. Thank you for this video.
I'm glad it was helpful for you!
Also, with the AVIO USB adapter: presenters can unplug and re-plug the adapter all day long with no clicks or pops! That's probably the case with the analog as well? Either way, this is one of the greatest advantages of Dante compared to AES50 or other analog solutions. Great video as always Doug! Curious to see how you use the X32, also curious about your solar setup that I just noticed in this video.
You'll get clicks and pops with the analog adapters.
I'll be doing a full video on my intercom setup utilizing the X32 in the not too distant future.
Very well done. I am even looking at diving into dante for a guitar rig. Already neck deep in NDI on video side.
Great info and run-down on Dante! Do you have a tour of your trailer? That looks awesome!
There are a few. Search the videos on my channel to see which ones might be most interesting
Audinate SW is not yet running on Mac with Apple M1silicon.
Thanks for mentioning that! That may change how I plan for the future
Incredibly informative and well done video- thanks! Many useful details that I hadn’t found elsewhere. We use Dante plus Ravenna (Merging) for stereo and ATMOS studio. What an incredibly useful tech. BTW, has any extension been proposed, or has anyone found a way to have a multicast ignore a range or specific connections (i.e. to reduce wasted bandwidth)? Maybe sub zones/nets or something else?
That’s what IGMP snooping is for - to limit where multicast traffic is sent.
OK so half an hour ago I knew nothing about Dante other than the broad principle, so thank you!
Not sure if you'll be able to advise, and not even sure that there might not be something much simpler and cheaper than Dante that would do what I need perfectly well: I'm in the process of planning the wiring of our home network and the plan so far is to have two ethernet wall plates in each of four rooms, all connected to a managed switch. I was planning to split these into two basic networks (vlans) - one for internet access to each room, and the second network connecting to my "office" which would be a bit like a studio control room, with the other three rooms being like studio "live rooms", with a PC or laptop in each room for AD/DA
Obviously I need to install cable at the right spec, as it's going to be a huge amount of work and I don't want to have to do it all over again in a few years!
So bottom line: How important is the spec of the network cable used for audio over IP? Does it need to be shielded and should I be using 5e, 6a, or doesn't it matter? The house isn't particularly big so we're not talking about more than 25 to 30 metre runs of cable to the switch. Thanks ! :)
Cat 5e is good for 1 Gb networks, which gives hundreds of Dante channels.
Thanks for this excellent overview! We have a venue where the mics are controlled by a touch panel but we can’t see levels. Is there some relatively inexpensive PC software where we could see the levels if we route the mic audio to the PC over Dante? Or maybe even a hardware “level monitor?”
I'm not aware of anything off the top of my head. Hopefully someone else can chime in here.
Hi doug, really nice video. I would like to ask you a question. I have 2 mixer, allen heath dlive and midas m32. If the dlive have dante 64x64 card and the m32 have dn32-dante, can i connect both mixer directly using ethernet cable to use it as FOH and monitor mixer, or do i need to use additional device to connect both mixer?
You could connect them directly, but I'd strongly advise getting an Ethernet switch to go between them. That will let you incorporate a computer so you can easily route the signals on your Dante network.
@@djp_video alright thank you so much for the answer doug, i really appreciate it 🙏
Hi Doug, Thanks for this straight forward video! I am struggling with mixing multi-track in Daw(Ableton) from x32 due to a long distance, do you think the USB Adapter I/O 2-CH will help even though I have a regular sound interface in my x32?
If you were to add a Dante card to your X32, and then run an Ethernet cable (be that copper or fiber) to your computer, using either one of Audinate's USB-based AVIO adapters, or a standard Ethernet adapter with the Dante Virtual Soundcard software, you would be able to have access to audio from your mixer. In the case of the AVIO you'd get 2 channels, or in the case of Dante Virtual Sound Card, up to 32 channels. But either of those solutions does require a Dante card in your X32. If you didn't want to bother with that expense and can get away with just two channels you could get one of the AVIOs (or a few AVIOs for more channels) with analog input or output for the mixer end of the connection, but at that point it's easier to just use analog cables to start with. But if you're getting to the point where you're buying more than a couple AVIOs you'd be better off just getting the proper card for the X32 and get real native, all-digital multi-channel support.
For runs of up to (about) 100 meters a standard copper Ethernet cable would work just fine. But if you need to go farther you could go with fiber optic cable. Media converters to convert between copper and fiber are getting pretty inexpensive, and fiber cables are surprisingly affordable too -- less than $1 per meter these days. I'd recommend you go with single mode fiber (look for blue connectors) and single mode SFP modules. Cables and SFPs with LC connectors on the cables will get you the cheapest reliable solution. And if you're working in an environment where the cable is subject to being run over or stepped on, go with armored cable rather than the standard stuff for better durability; it adds a metal shield wrap around the fiber to help protect it.
Another solution for the X32 series is to use one of Behringer's digital snakes like the S16 or S32. They use AES50, which is kind of like Dante, but point-to-point rather than point to multi-point. The X32s supports AES50 natively and don't need an interface card. That would get you an analog connection of mulitple channels near your computer where you could use your choice of audio interfaces to connect it. But these, too, are limited to 100 meters and I don't believe can be converted to fiber if you need to go any farther.
sorry my questios is i need two dante avios aes3? in & out to map connections?
Each AES AVIO has one stereo input and one stereo output.
Hi
How do I add Skype TX caller over the Dante network through Tricaster.
On tricaster TC1 , Once I connect the Skype tx call, I can’t take the caller sound to the studio monitor (soundbox) at the moment the host only listen through talkback. So if there are few more guests in the studio they can’t hear what the Skype caller is saying.
I've never used a TC1. I'm not sure how all of that works.
Can we connect this Dante AV device to an AP ethernet port instead of switch port.
Most devices which have switch functionality will work.
I hate it when the licenses are locked to a PC. I work with virtualization tech a lot and this is always a barrier
I personally don’t really like the Yamaha ecosystem. I would pay a little more for the A&H SQ with the DT1608 boxes
That's part of the beauty of Dante... you can use components from different manufacturers together.
Any benefits to using Dante instead of JACK2? I get that there's XLR input/output hardware, but purely as the virtual soundcard features it seems JACK2 is the same thing and free, although is a bit nerdy to setup over a network especially.
Professional audio and video production is almost always done using purpose-built hardware, so JACK2 just wouldn't work in those circumstances.
@@djp_video Guess so, but I was looking at it from the persepctive of the virtual soundcard device is just software like JACK2 is an audio server. The main benefot of JACK2 is it can take as many channels from A to B as you want. I take 128 channels from my DAW into Davinci Resolve for example, it works fine, but clearly this is in the box, not interfacing to external digital or analogue audio inputs.
Good afternoon can I use the behringer P16 with the yamaha TF5 Mixer
No. The TF5 uses Dante, but the Behringer uses their own proprietary Ultranet protocol. They aren't compatible.
@@djp_video thank very much can you tell the most cost effective way for in ear monitors for musicians with the TF5 Please.
The easiest solution is to use the Aux busses on the TF5, one (or two) per performer. They can use the MonitorMix app to control their own mixes if they'd like.
Hi, does it work over internet??
There have been some experimental implementations that have been able to do it, but normally, no.
Have you seen any small 1U or 2U rackmount Dante mixers? It seems the X32 is an old unit - is it still available? The Presonus 16R is a 1U unit but they have an external device for Dante.
The X32 Rack is 3U high, so it wouldn't qualify. I haven't really shopped for one myself, but check Audinate's database of Dante-enabled products: www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled
There was Behringer X32 Core years ago (now discontinues as I know) but I'm curious too if there are some 1U/2U racks just as a unit even without inputs/outputs. Just with optional Dante card.
@@BuriTechVids So far the best I have found is the Presonus 16R with their new AVB-Dante interface. That would take 2U's - www.presonus.com/products/AVB-D16
@@BuriTechVids X32 Core is discontinued but it seems Midas M32C is not (it's the same unit just with less front panel controls)
I'm so so super grateful 🙏 for this video. It's the best comprehensive piece packed with so much knowledge. Thank you for this. Can you please help me with a piece on using DAW like Reaper & Ableton Live for live mix to live streaming broadcast?
Can Dante routed over the internet?
Technically yes, but it's really difficult to do.
Do you know if I can use the "ZOOM Livetrak" (Multitrack Recorder ) with Dante? I have one in my production truck.
It doesn't have it built-in. You'd need adapters to convert the audio signals.
@@djp_video however, if I had that same Yamaha mixer that you have with the Dante card, couldn't I just bring the xlr's out and then into the Multitrack since they would sit side by side in the truck?
Yes. But if you had the same mixer you wouldn’t need the Zoom
@Doug Johnson Productions Oh Ok..I didn't realize that Yamaha is also a multitrack recorder. I'll have to dig more in to it.
@@kduane1 It doesn’t have a recorder built-in, but if you connect it to a computer with USB (or Dante using Virtual Sound Card) you can record isolated tracks there with the included Nuendo Live software.
Can the laptop Dante sound come over wifi, or that would have to be on a wired LAN as well?
It's really not recommended to try to use WiFi. It wouldn't be at all reliable.
Look.. It would work, as well as NDI works over WiFi.. BUT.. it will work before the show. When then people will come there with theirs smartphones which every device do some traffic even they are not connected to specify WiFI netowrk, your network will be very very unstable. And sometimes it don't have to be many people. Sometimes it can be just 1 device which is bad and do a lot of interference in 2.4/5 GHz frequencies..
I'm not even sure that it would work at all with many access points. WiFi isn't really Ethernet and it may not handle Dante traffic properly. It certainly won't have latency low enough for what Dante expects.
does it have a way I could use my sound device 888 meaning a card ?
Your 888 has Dante built right in. Just plug it in to your network to make it available.
@@djp_video sry it the 688
The 688 doesn't have Dante.
@@djp_video ok but could I send a feed then through the xlr female to the adapter ( Audinate Dante AVIO) to a switch back to Audinate Bluetooth IO Adapter to send a blue audio feed to my Producer or director would this work ??
@@meahnicholas7352 Yes. But if that is all you need to do, a simple Bluetooth transmitter would be a lot easier and far cheaper
pretty much like this but ghza meening internal frecventy and transfer data so !more fine and detailed data less channel! same like any digital protccol! this one is dante !
is there a lot of latency on Dante? I've been thinking about using it to send and receive audio from my DIT cart
On my system latency is usually less than 1ms. It’s basically undetectable
Its not like internet in germany where the provider reduces the speed
Thank You for this channel. I have a question. I know it’s recommended to keep the audio on a separate LAN, however, please advise.
How do I separate the LAN from my network and still use DVS from another LAN to capture the audio from a DAW on Dante network to OBS on the other LAN?
You can use separate network interfaces. On a desktop PC you could add a PCIe card. On all computers you could use a USB-to-Ethernet adapter.
@@djp_video Thank you!
I hope it replaces MIDI. I hated midi as long as I can thinking..in, out, in, out, in, out ..ThroUUUUGH = goal
This is the most comprehensive and easy to understand overview of Dante I have come across. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the technology until I saw this video. Thanks.
I'm glad it was helpful. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Spoke to Ricki Cook about Dante at a conference, as he was one of the people that worked on it before it was even called Dante. I’m glad I found this video because he convinced me that this is the future.
This is awesome Doug! I've been learning about Dante on my own and you summed up what I learned (plus added more) in 20-30 minutes (since I watch at 1.5 speed :)
That must be fun to comprehend. I talk pretty fast as it is.
Great introductory video Doug! For fun, I did Dante Levels 1-3 in about half a day, and I would encourage others to take advantage of the (free) Audinate training. If you have a good networking background, then it's quite straightforward to attain. I really liked your practical implementations which leverage Dante; it really consolidated the theory. It definitely is one of those "light bulb moment" technologies, when you realise just what can be achieved with various components. I am only slightly disappointed my A&H Qu-16 doesn't support it!
A really fantastic and informative overview! 👏🏾👍🏾🙏🏾
I really like the way you explained, straight to the point… no blah blah. Subscribe already :))
Great info thanks!
This was very informative and finally made me see and understand the big picture of how Dante can simplify audio/video production. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I look forward to watching other videos on how to setup and use this technology on the fly.
Awesome video. Thank you. I work in AV and Audio, but am just starting to learn about DANTE. This was so incredibly helpful. Way to go. 😎
Your video is really helpful. I'm an IT engineer so I know IP very well. I'm also an audiophile. I think Dante is an awesome marriage of those two technologies. I can't wait to roll it out at my house.
Thank you for a great and informative video! Much appreciated!
Wonderful informative video. Thank you so much.
This is the best explanation of Dante.. Thank you. 👍👍
Thank you!
Man! This is good! Excellent job on this! In the process of building a trailer and integrating Dante :) fantastic
Thanks for your great info. All I want to do at this point is install a Dante card into my Midas m32r, run an app off of my computer called Jamzone which is a multitrack player of pre recorded cover songs used to perform live. Its currently sending just 2 channels out in stereo or there’s an option to split the tracks into 2 mono tracks to send a click out one channel and the summed tracks out another. Here’s my question: couldn’t I just use the Dante usb to Ethernet adapter from my laptop or iOS device into the installed card on my Midas m32r and then route the audio to an input Chanel etc? Your advice on this would be highly appreciated. Would of course be willing to pay you for helping me to get this up and running. I know I can just take a usb c cable out ( which is what I’m doing now) of my MacBook Pro or iPad pad pro and run it into my mixer but I’m wanting a much cleaner signal and eventually want to utilize the vast capabilities of the Dante networking ecosystem. Thank you for your time.
The AVIO adapters (USB to Ethernet) only support two channels, so you don't gain much with those.
Dante Virtual Soundcard would let you output many channels from your computer.
A Dante card for your Midas would probably be a good idea, but it wouldn't give you much of an advantage over what you're doing now. The biggest upgrade would be flexible routing of audio channels on the Dante network. But I should mention that the audio quality isn't likely to be any better over Dante compared to a USB connection to your mixer -- both would be the same pure digital 48kHz 24-bit audio.
@@djp_video
For this application 2 channels is all I need. My main question was can I just plug directly into the Dante card and then assign channels on the mixer to output the sound from my computer or iOS device.
I bounced in my chair when you mentioned multicast @ 18:00
Asa network engineer we can also run mirror ports, so if you have a live tx device and a recording device we could mirror your traffic to a recording device. We can also control the multicast recievers by using PIM where only subscriber nodes will recieve the intended traffic.
Would love to learn more about how you handle timing if you have multiple input streams hitting a 'controller' or 'reciever' node in your DANTE network.
Dante handles the timing pretty much on its own. You usually don't need to do anything.
Great Video! Thank you
Thank you, I needed help with multicast you helped me pass my certification for level 2
Solid explanation. Thank you so much
tnx for the video, dont forget to tell that you need to power the avio devices trough POE !!
Great content, thank you so much for this very well detailed video about Dante.
Excellent Video, thank you!!!
Very helpful information....thanks.
Thanks. One of the best concise explanations of this technology.
Thanks Doug, I really need to learn this and start using dante
I moved this vdo to you tube I can give you a like / this is a great vdo very informative/ thx love ❤️it
Finally! A view that actually outlines Dante and gives use-case/example setups to drive it home. The others start off at the basics then quickly evolve into ultra-complicated topics. Thanks for this!
One of the best videos I have seen where it gives you a complete look at the whole DANTE possibilities. Thank you sir!
Great video, thanks!
Thank you for this video, is the distance between to sources important in this routing ?
Physical distance doesn't really come into play in any practical applications. Ethernet has a 100m limitation with copper cables, but fiber can go much, much farther. The number of network switches between devices should be kept low to reduce the signal switching/propagation delays where possible to do so.
Thank you Doug!
So I’m a little confused do you need a router to be in the network in order to assign IP address to the different devices or Can you just use switchs and POE switch to Connect all your devices together?
No router is required. Devices will assign their own 169.254.x.x IP addresses and be able to find one another. It's actually Audinate's recommended configuration.
Thank you, bro!!
Great video. Thanks for making this.
I prefer AVB because of it being an open standard no licensing costs. Presonus and Motu are dedicated to AVB and that works for me. I also like being able to easily use MADI with AVB.
Dante is pretty cool and even focusrite's implementation of Dante they call RedNet is cool. There are like 4 other network audio protocols, but Dante and AVB are really the winners. Be interesting to see what iconnectivity implements.
I investigated AVB, but the lack of networking hardware with proper management features and inability to be routed made it a non-starter for me. I couldn't do much of what I'm doing with my trailer with AVB. You also don't find much support from the most prominent audio gear manufacturers.
@@djp_video motu pro can route any avb signal anywhere even if there is no interface hooked up to the computer you want to send audio to. It is pretty complicated to matrix your way through it, but once you set it up you don't really have to touch it again.
I hope both succeed as it will make both better in the long run. Rednet is too expensive for me, but motu avb I can do. Multi computer DAW systems are definitely the way to go especially from a performance standpoint. I have 4 computers running things for my live setup using avb for audio and NDI for all the video.
I'm all in on this network stuff lol.
The type of routing I’m referring to is IP, like between network subnets. AVB can’t do that. And that’s something I need in my trailer. Additionally, I also need managed switches for my network and I couldn’t find any that support AVB.
RedNet is extremely expensive. There are a lot of Dante products that are a lot more accessible than those. The X32 series from Behringer is very popular because if is very capable and yet still affordable, and they have a Dante option card. I interact regularly with someone pretty high up at Audinate and I can tell you with 100% surety that they are very aware of their reputation for being expensive and they are actively trying to fix that. They do have affordable chips available but they’re having a hard time convincing equipment manufacturers that Dante should be in more budget friendly equipment. Things are changing, albeit slowly.
I don’t think AVB is catching on. The only major audio equipment manufacturers that seem to have adopted it are PreSonus and MOTU. So you only get one choice of manufacturer for mixers, and it happens to be from a company whose products are so unreliable I wouldn’t use them as boat anchors (I’ve owned three PreSonus mixers, and all three died early deaths, just after the warranty expired.) The MOTU stuff is fine, but their products are mostly limited to just audio interfaces.
Dante isn’t perfect, but it is just about everywhere now. Most major manufacturers have products that support it. You’ll find it in most entertainment venues now. Being able to pull into a venue, plug in a single Ethernet cable and have access to all of their audio sources is pretty amazing. And being able to use the existing Ethernet network at many locations even if they don’t already have Dante is pretty convenient too.
FYI - Office Hours Global 2023 Year End Review: Business (Christmas Day 2023?), at 38:10 into the TH-cam stream, Alex Lindsay had two definitive opinions on Dante: 1) He loves Dante and uses it in every day in every project, 2) He hates Dante Via and says he never uses it. How does he really feel about it? "Dante Via is a rolling dumpster fire that came straight out of hell."
Dante Via is, as he mentioned, a bit of a dumpster fire. Very inconsistent and can be unreliable. The latency it creates is also higher than I like to see.
Dante itself has its quirks. But I don't know that we can blame Dante in and of itself for those... when I've had problems with Dante it has always been a configuration issue with the network itself, not with any Dante device.
How did you see the aux busses and program busses in Dante controller FROM your TF series? Is that a TF series-only feature? I’m on a QL5 and on Dante controller, on my receiver (Dante Virtual Sound card into PC for records), only see Dante 1-64 “inputs” on coming from the transmitting QL5. How is the heck dare you seeing/sending your Aux/Matrix feeds in Dante controller in your transmitter sends?
By default it's just 64 numbered inputs and outputs. I took the time to relabel them in Dante Controller based on their function so I can always tell what I'm connecting. The user manual for the mixer (page 106) shows which channel is what. (Keep in mind that the TF series doesn't have any internal routing -- Channel 1 input always maps to channel one of the selected source, whether that be analog input, USB, or the Dante card -- it can't take Dante channel 5 and route it to channel 1, for example. Of course you can still route your Dante signals however you'd like.)
@@djp_video Thank you Doug for answering so quickly (love your channel and content btw!!). I guess what I'm wondering is......if by default, we see inputs 1-64 in Dante Controller.....and yes, I get that you renamed them to "Aux 1, Aux 2, Program Left, Program Right, etc," I still don't quite understand HOW an aux/mix buss would show up in that 1-64 bank on the transmitters section in Dante Controller. Are you just going to, for example, "Mix bus 1" on the console, going to that mix bus' outputs, and routing it to multiple destinations, for example, Omni 1, PLUS Dante 23 for example? I know you aren't the user manual, so, I will have to read-up on it, I just don't quite understand how/if you're able to actually pull your aux/Mix1 bus mix audio over Dante. Will certainly be trying to figure it out on my end. Thanx again Doug, keep up the great work!
@@djp_video I think some things "clicked" for me today and I got my program feeds going over Dante.......thanx again Doug, and keep up the good work!
I have a question:
I’m getting a tio box to put in a synth cart with an old field pit for a marching band.
I have a tf1 with 16 channels, however, I am using all 16 inputs on the tf1.
With the stage box will I be able to use the inputs on the back of my mixer AND the mixer on the stage box for a total of 32? Or am i looking at this wrong?
Thank you
Yes, you can use both. After connecting the Tio to the TF over Ethernet, you can map any of the Tio's inputs to any of the TF's channels... so you could have Tio input 1 on TF Input 17, and so forth.
What is Dante?= The Shit
The Dante Avio AES3 How that work? can I use with analog avio or only AES3 TO AES3?
It has a digital AES3 input and a digital AES3 output. If you need analog connectivity you can use one of the analog AVIO adapters. And you can map connections between the two using Dante Controller.
I few months ago we went from using an X32 console without Dante to running an Allen & Heath Avantis with a Dante card. Originally I though I might use it just for multitrack recording and virtual soundcheck, but I have steadily found more ways to use Dante. Now I am sending audio to four different Dante devices (Avantis for FOH and streaming mixes, X32 Rack for monitor mixing, FOH computer for multitrack and plugin processing, and a Mac Mini via one of the Audinate 2x2 USB dongles) and have just about maxed out the 64x64 card in the Avantis. We probably send more than 64 unique audio channels throughout the system, but not all of it is routed through the Avantis. It really has been a great addition to our system.
Can you use Dante to build a broadcast mix desperate from a FOH mix?
Dante is really only the data transport and it isn’t involved in creating any mixes.
If the connected mixer can build the mix you need then yes you can. If it can’t then no
Thank you Doug for the explanation on Dante. We have it at church, but I do not know enough to even talk about it yet. I hear they have an audio contractor for various items. I will continue to read up on this. Take care.
One tip from me is to look at the Allen & Heath SQ5 mixer with dante card, along with the Allen & Heath DT168 dante stagebox. The DT168 can also be controlled with software (without the need for the SQ5). Great high quality mixer and preamps!
Digital Audio Network Technology over Ethernet.
Thank you for the insights Doug. Question: Do you run your system DHCP or static ip? I found when I tried to integrate my Dante gear into a venue’s Dante network, my devices could not get onto the same ip range and had to add a router which changed all the ips to 192.168.XX.XX How do you find most venues running their Dante systems? My experience was not as "plug and play" as I had hoped.
I either use DHCP or auto-assigned addresses… never static IPs. When I’m at a venue that has Dante I’ll plug into their network and let my system take on the same IP scheme that they’re already using, whether that be DHCP or auto-assign addresses. When I’m working somewhere that doesn’t have Dante I just let the adapters auto-assign 169.254.x.x addresses. Dante devices find each other by name to do signal routing… the IP addresses don’t matter so assigning them yourself just adds complexity and frustration. This is how Audinate recommends that Dante networks be setup, and I’ve found that it works better than trying to use static addresses.
So this is kind of like NDI for audio?
A similar concept, yes. But fully uncompressed, more mature, and with fewer limitations due to the lower bandwidth requirements of audio compared to video.
@@djp_video thank you. I've never heard of Dante until now and i think I will definitely migrate to it
hi Doug, I am doing sound system fir a water park.. would you strongly advise networked audio for this?
Based on the kinds of distances involved, Dante could be a good solution. But good old balanced analog audio can run over really long distances too.
@@djp_video Thanks!
wow. that was awesome awesome awesome info download. Id always vaguely heard of dante but this was the first time I took a proper look at it. Glad I started with your channel.
Thanks! And welcome to the channel.
Sir. Can I connect the NY64-d card directly to computer for multitrack recording?
You should be able to.
@@djp_video thank you Sir
Thanks!
Thank you!!!
Great work and presentation - a bit over head for me but Would love to see a chart - indicating all your connections - in a simple network. My question is that you mentioned getting audio from all sources connected to the network on a simple computer or u saying u can run that audio in your existing "DAW" software. and with the actual Mixer those sources routed there are they controlled via the hardware or in software as you shown in your video --- Thanks take your time..
The network itself can be thought of as just the Dante devices plugged into a network switch. I have multiple switches, but that doesn’t really matter. All of the connections take place in software. The physical network doesn’t really come into play much.
The problem with doing a diagram is that I don’t really have a consistent setup. I could certainly list off what devices I have on my Dante network, but the way the audio is routed is different for every event. I rebuild the Dante routing from scratch for each event based on whatever the audio needs are at the time and the capabilities of the venue (whether it has its own Dante network or not). Sometimes I’m literally just patching into the Front of House main output, but in other situations I might patch into individual sound sources (microphones) to build my own mix.
With that said, any audio source on the Dante network is available to be mapped into a computer, and therefore into a DAW. I don’t need a separate sound card interface. The Dante Virtual Soundcard software emulates a sound card and allows me to bring any individual microphone or other sound source to be recorded into the DAW.
@@djp_video thanks just doing research for future investment, watched a few other videos, I get it now. Each source has its own amount of output channels via the app which you can find in your daw or other recording software…
How would Incorporate Dante into my Current Set up? I have an 8 Channel Analog Mixer, I am a Musician who was thinking of purchasing a Midi Keyboard but thinking adding Dante will be more cost-effective seeing as a Synth I have already has Midi! I just have a tricky apartment space to use for recording etc... Also sometimes doing Music Lessons online.
I don't have an Ethernet Port on my Synth or XLR Outputs (Yamaha Modx8 is my Synth) I can plug into my computer on a Busy Channel Day I would probably have a Channel for a Guitar DI Box, Vox Mic, Guitar Mic and Keyboard, There is also reverb plugin In Logic I like so I would Imagine the purchase of Mainstage would be ideal too for live performance?
With a setup that size, Dante may not make sense for you.
Think of Dante as a replacement for large numbers or long audio cables. It works really well, but if you're only dealing with a few channels or short runs it may not make sense, as you have to have Dante adapters to convert the analog audio to digital and then often need additional converters to go the other way as well. One of the least expensive multi-channel adapters is the Yamaha Tio1608-D, but at $1000 just to get audio in and out of the Dante network, it doesn't always pay off.
Does Dante expand the number of channels you can use? Let's say you have a 16 input mixer, and you need more? I'm a beginner in this field currently
Not usually. You'd need a bigger mixer, or a second mixer that you cascade into your first by connecting its output into inputs on your main mixer.
@@djp_video The 16 channel digital mixer I've got is Dante capable apparently.
Usually the way those things work is that you select (route) the source for each of your main 16 channels -- channel 1 and 2 might come from Dante, where channels 3-4 might be XLR inputs, for example. They normally don't add additional channels on top of what you already have. Each time you select Dante as the source for a channel you'll lose access to the corresponding analog input. But it does vary by model.
@@djp_video ah I seee
Ethernet is the future of all cables. Funny how Apple had the idea to remove it from their laptops. Ethernet should replace USB and HDMI one day. It is hostless unlike USB.
Current Ethernet implementations generally top out at 1 Gb/sec. While 10 Gb or 40 Gb is available, it's still relatively uncommon, expensive, and power hungry. USB is currently available at 20 Gb/sec, with 40 Gb/sec available on the newest devices. HDMI does 48 Gb/sec. So the other connection types have a significant speed advantage at the moment.
@@djp_video they got 100G in the datacentre and SFP etc.
It sounds like Dante and NDI are the same thing?
There are a lot of similarities. Dante is primarily audio and NDI is primarily video, but, yes, they are similar in a lot of ways.
The big differences come from the bandwidth required to perform each of these functions. Whereas with audio you can do hundreds of channels uncompressed on a gigabit network, with video even a single stream has to fit within what gigabit can handle. The compression on NDI varies from practically visually lossless to downright near unusable depending on what version of it you use. That compression adds latency as well. So where the latency with Dante is just about impossible to perceive, the latency with NDI does cause some issues in some workflows. I'd never use NDI if I was doing IMAG, for example.
@@djp_videoFantastic, quick reply! I'd like to discuss a personal consultant session with you. Possible?
I was asked to look into DANTE for a customer network! This is a great introduction.
Just a query. Where you have dual Ethernet out, can you configure the networking to send the signal out both interfaces and let the network equipment process both sources? I'm thinking of of a situation where the fibre/CAT6 is damaged and we need instantaneous switchover to a second feed to remove the drop in Tx?
The dual connections are usually for redundancy and can't really be used to create separate networks/streams to multiple sets of devices. Some devices can be reconfigured to have the second port to basically act as a switch to pass traffic from the primary port so you can daisy chain devices, but that isn't part of the official, required standard; normally the two ports are meant for redundancy.
When used with the redundancy feature enabled, you create two completely separate networks with their own cabling and switches and plug the primary port of a Dante card/device into one network and the secondary network into the second port. If the primary network fails, it will automatically and seamlessly fail over to the secondary without interruption.
Hi!
I have a few questions:
Can I use the same LAN I already have for Dante also?
Does the Dante router need a DHCP server?
If the Dante network is connected to a wifi network, can I access the Dante Controller through wifi?
You can use the same LAN, but they recommend that it be separate. It's more reliable that way.
Dante actually works best without DHCP or static IP addresses. The self-assigned IP addresses (169.254.x.x) work really well.
I haven't tried using Dante Controller over WiFi, but I assume it should work.
Hey everyone! I'm currently running a studio setup in my basement with two Presonus mixers (Studiolive 64S and 32R), managing about 56 inputs that feed into my Windows computer via USB. I'm eyeing a transition to a Dante solution to streamline my workflow and expand capabilities. Any suggestions on the best approach for this transition? Should I consider upgrading my mixers or are there specific Dante interfaces that would seamlessly integrate with my current setup? Looking forward to your insights! Thanks
With your StudioLive 64S and 32R you already have AVB, which is a similar standard which also lets you send audio over an Ethernet network. In terms of just swapping over to Dante, unlike some of the StudioLive mixers yours doesn't support expansion cards, so you can't just swap out a card to switch from AVB to Dante. PreSonus is pretty firmly in the AVB camp and their Dante support is weak.
AVB isn't quite as popular as Dante, and getting it up and going is a little bit different -- for example with AVB you need network switches which are designed to support AVB, but many of the capabilities of the two technologies are similar. You'll likely find that there are lot more options out there in terms of devices which support Dante vs AVB, but for many applications the end result between the two is similar, even if the way to go about it differs a little.
If you like your current mixer and want to stick with it, there are boxes out there that convert between AVB and Dante. PreSonus has their own PreSonus AVB-D16. Both technologies also support AES67 (allegedly anyway), and that could in theory be used to bridge between the two, but I can't find any documentation on how to do that on the AVB side of things. (For Dante, it's just a checkbox in Dante Controller.) If, on the other hand, you find that AVB doesn't give you the capabilities you desire, and you are looking to replace your mixer, there are many good options out there that either speak Dante natively or have expansion cards available.
@@djp_video Wow! Super honored. Thanks so much for your responce. I have the AVB switches for this setup... I am looking to switch over to Dante fully. What mixer or solution would you suggest?
That's such a personal decision that I almost hate to offer much in the way of suggestions. I like my Yamaha TF mixers, but they're designed for live work and they'd be awkward in a studio (that isn't really Yamaha's strength) and many audio professionals don't like the simplified interface.
Drop into my Discord server and ask there in the audio channel. There are going to be others there that have more experience with that type of gear than I currently do.
@@djp_video Gotcha. You mind sending the link? Unless there's an easy way to find it.
djp.li/discord
Doug, around 21:25 - 'a multicast flow goes to every device on your network....' - i don't think that is correct. multicast stream/flow of packets should only go to devices subscribed to that multicast address. please confirm.... ?
They're only routed to destination devices if you have a smart/managed switch and IGMP snooping is enabled. For the typical switch you get at your local electronics retailer multicast traffic is treated just like broadcast traffic.
Is there a video how Dante works with video mixing and recording
Can you clarify what you're hoping to learn?
@@djp_video Is Dante supporting video recording and streaming or it’s just strictly audio?
Also does it have a interface with video mixing?
Thank you
Dante itself is audio only. There is a Dante AV technology that also does video as well. That's a separate technology not addressed in this video, and (frankly) hasn't really caught on.
Thank you for the explanation. i have two questions, i saw LAN interface on one of your TF1 mixer, is that ok to use the LAN to connect with dante? do we need dhcp server for IP assignment?
The mixer has three LAN ports -- one that is just for remote control of the mixer from their iOS/Android/Windows/Mac apps, and the other two are Dante -- one primary, and one secondary. I currently have those ports setup to act as a switch, but they can be reconfigured to act as primary and backup.
You can use DHCP, but Audinate recommends that you don't and let the Dante devices use auto-configured IP addresses in the 169.254.x.x subnet. It's just easier that way.
You can use the same LAN for Dante if you want, though this might not be a wise idea if your LAN is already pretty busy.
hi, is it possible to mix multiple dante transmitter and send it to one receiver?
That's where an audio mixer comes into play.
@@djp_video possible to name some devices that mixes multiple dante transmitters signal and sends into one or more designated dante receivers
Aside from dedicate audio mixers I'm not aware of anything. Take a look at Audinate's product catalog: www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled
Excellent review Doug. I am an Audio Engineer just finished my course last year just before Coronavirus hit and did the Dante Level 1 and Level 2 certifications also on my own time. I also did Waves SoundGrid certification Level 1 and Level 2. I heard that Dante Domain Manager is the newest thing but you need Level 3 first. Do you recommend this course of action to try and acquire work in this pandemic?
Finish your Level 3 before anything else. You won’t really understand DDM very well without it.
DDM is a whole new level of complexity and something you likely will not need to concern yourself with unless you’re the engineer for a large facility
Really good video introducing Dante. Well done Doug! Of course, some care is needed re planning / implementing good network traffic management to make sure it doesn't get impacted at the worst possible moments, but that's beyond a basic intro.
Could you post an update for the intercom setup, previously you were using the x-air system. Love the unconventional ways you come out with
I’ll be doing a full video about it in the near future
How do you then embed your Dante audio into video. I looked at the AVIO AES3/EBU adaptors but they seem to output to XLR not 1/4” Jack which is what the BMD embedder accepts..? Am I missing something?
I use the XLR audio inputs on my ATEM switcher to embed the final audio mix.
With that said, AES/EBU is a great way to transport audio by keeping it in the digital domain, avoiding conversions. In your case the only thing you need is a simple adapter to go from XLR to TRS (1/4"). The signals sent over XLR and TRS are identical, so a simple adapter or cable with the right connectors will take care of it for you.
@@djp_video thanks Doug. I may be being over ambitious and my current way of working (via XLR) is perfectly adequate.
Having encountered some gremlins with AES50 recently for non-video work, I’m weighing up options for how I might move towards Dante or MADI, with an eye on versatility in video work too. I like the idea of digital throughout the chain.
Have you ever considered sending your Dante in via AES3/EBU?
Considered it, but not that seriously. It would cost quite a lot for little, if any, benefit.
@@djp_video would you say MADI (although included on the 4M/E) is gradually being replaced by Dante for video production? Or do they serve different use cases?
Gradually, yes. Dante is much more flexible since you can route any source to any number of destinations, whereas MADI is basically all channels from point A to point B. Dante also works over existing Ethernet networks which provides a huge advantage in that new cabling doesn't have to be installed.