"Hetzer": Birth of a Legend
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2021
- In this video the director of the Panzermuseum Munster Ralf Raths and I discuss the origin of the name "Hetzer" for the Jagdpanzer 38 (t).
Disclaimer: I was invited by the Panzermuseum Munster in 2020.
English Channel of the Panzermuseum: / germantankmuseum
German Channel of the Panzermuseum: / daspanzermuseum
Cover design by vonKickass.
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So, languages evolve over time. Words take on meaning or lose meaning. Hunters hunting on private land don't always chase. They lie in wait for their prey. I'm a soldier, and a hunter so I have done this many times. If someone called me a Hetzer, or in my understanding, Hunter, this would be very accurate. Perhaps despite the idea of "Hetzing" or chasing, they meant it as a hunter who lies in wait?
There's something really neat about hearing two native German speakers discuss their thoughts about how the English/worldwide community pronounces/uses German names. :)
Yeah, in English. HAH!
Well, one is Austrian, so the term “native speaker” is debatable lol
@@ronhuppert2410 it isn't, because austrians are also native german speakers (they speak german as their mother language after all)
@@redhausser7492 As an Austrian (Vienna,) I was making spaß :)
@@ronhuppert2410 dunno what "spaß" means, but ok, my bad.
Guess I'm not great with humor today :/
"Hetzer" is shorter and easier to say than "Jagdpanzer 38(t)".
also the way we pronounce jagdpanzer sounds like a fair few others
It rolls off the tongue like rapping the alphabet backwards.
Perhaps, but I will always say "Jagdpanzer 38(t)". Granted I don't say "open/close bracket"
As an English speaker Hetzer is an Easy word too say and it very distinct. So I do see that could be a big reason.
Definitely easier than "panzerkampfwagen," there's a good reason pop culture shortens it to "panzer."
@@101jir Also a good reason why the Germans shortened it themselves.
Short, snappy, impactful; it's as fun to say as a swear.
Why didn't they come straight out and say it means 'hound' ?
@@IvanTre Probably because when people think of "hound," I think for most the noun comes to mind well before the verb and people forget that it works perfectly as a verb in this context.
Due to my grandfather, who was a loader in a Jagdpanzer 38 (t), they already called it "Hetzer" (March/April 1945). They also did NOT call it a "Panzer" (tank), but a "Geschütz" (gun).
That's what I wanted to know. If Guderian wrote that the men call it 'Hetzer', he must have got that somewhere. Just because earlier, internal documents refer to it as 'Hetzer', doesn't rule out that the name got out and the men called it that too.
@@turbografx16 It would have appealed to the crews just as much as it does to us, so I can see how it would have stuck. The thing is, most memoirs, although written later, referred to wartime diaries and the name Hetzer shows up in quite a few. The official designation was so clunky that you'd think the NCO's and crews who fought in and alongside them must have had some kind of short hand to describe them, but the only one that comes down to us is Hetzer. I think this is because that's what they called them at the time.
My grandfather (born 1926) was a radio operator on this type of tank and he told the same.
Makes sense to me. I appreciate the going through official records aspect and it's far more difficult to track much less document oral history and debunking some of those has been on the upswing lately but one must also realize that front line soldiers use unofficial names all the time. Often in spite of official designations. the Buff, Hog and Viper come quickly to mind.Hetzer as harrier makes sense as that's really all the troops could do with them was try to wear out the enemy's advance.
@@Bochi42 When my father in law told me Hetzer was his favorite that he operated, I didn't ask if he used that term after building the model kits he did after his time in FBB or if they called it that during the War.
I love the name Jagdpanzer, since in Finnish that translates easily to "Jahtipanssari" (a Jahti tank). Jahti means a kind of a hunt where the shooters wait in fixed positions for the game to come in the killing zone while the rest of the team just scares, lures and tunnels the catch there. Sounds like Hetzers in action?
In German we have different terms for different hunting technics like Hetzjagd and Treibjagd, the second one is what you described, whilst during a Hetzjagd you yourself but mostley with the help of Dogs are trying to follow your game whilst pushing it throu its limits until it either escapes or you catch it, without anyone waiting in an ambush position to support your efforts.
@@wolverine8658 Thanks. It seams Finnish have Germanic roots for hunting terms.
Just lost something in translation.
The description in the last video of what "hetzen" means makes me think more of persistence hunting. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
@@Xeno426 Yes you are absolutely right, Hetzjagd or Hetzen means exactly Persistence Hunting
The "class of vehicles" theory actually goes to the E-10/E25 etc and is the same as the theory Ralf proposes. The only distinction being that Ralf assigned "Hetzer" to the E-10 only, but that the 'class' theory applies to a couple of those new vehicles as a group. But that it 'migrated' from the E-series to the Jgdpz 38(t) is the same for both theories.
The American naming is just as filled with mystery. Particularly "Wolverine", which nobody has found the origin of.
so the official answer is nobody knows where it comes from but everyone agrees it's a great name. The source list for this video is very impressive though.
Legend has it there is a German supply guy still filling out the logs for the Panzer Selbstfahrlafette I für 7,62-cm-PaK 36(r) auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf. D1 und D2
So, hetzen is just a single word to describe persistence hunting. Kind of cool.
And the role of this tank destroyer was the exact opposite of that. It was an ambush predator.
Hetzer cannon hetz.
Beauty of german language my friend
We even have a four Letter Word for "f*ck off, you might disagree, but i am still right, so stfu!"
We just say
"doch"
@@lukeeszeha5381 Every language has concepts that it can say simply and quickly. Inuktitut has nine demonstrative pronouns that let speakers quickly describe where something is in relation to them with a single word. English has loads of tenses that allow a speaker to quickly describe how an event fits into a timeline of events.
And if you want swearing, Russian has *layers* of it.
Minus letter count, so does English: chase
Interesting story. I think we got a stuck gear in the first three minutes of the video, but as always, it loosened up and we moved on. I definitely came to know the Hetzer from the "'matchbox" plastic kit when I was a kid.
I too had a model, because it was unlike any armored vehicle I had ever seen. Too bad it was slow.
"Hetzer" seems to be most equivalent to the English verb "Harry" or "Harrass."
'Harrier'
Back in the 1970's I built a Hetzer model kit.
Apparently "complicated" to the rest of the world is "interesting" to a German.
And what for a German is "complicated" to the rest of the world is "incomprehensible"...
I'd like to add my personal tinfoil to Ralf's plausible speculation to make it... less plausible I guess.
Some Bohemian factory manager with a bit of an accent tried to say E-10, but it sounded more like 'hetzen' to the German officer and he thought "Oh, they already picked a name." and ran with it. :D
Could be, a bohemian ecen (we would read it this way) would a german write down as etzen. Then you need only add H
Thank you for another great video and thank you to both you and Ralf Raths for having the discussion in English for the benefit of those of us who speak that but not German (or in my case, I have failed to learn how to speak/understand German, French, Latin, Ancient Greek and... I lose track!)
Outstanding video and presentation.
So if we look at it from the reverse: STUG implies that it is an assault gun, PANZER or Panzerkampfwagen implies that it is an (assault) tank. JAGDPANZER implies that it is a tank-destroyet or Panzer-killing weapon.
Having a "Hetzer" Panzerkampfwagen almost implies that this version is the correct version
It's really great that you explain the German language names. For so long, English-speaking people just use the German names with no idea what they mean.
Without watching Rolf's video, I'm guessing the best English translation of Hetzer would be harrier, as in something that harries its prey.
You’re the best historian in European history Bernhard!!! There’s not even a doubt about that!!!
About the name, it's interesting to me as a Swede, because this word has transferred over to my language almost directly. We say "hetsa" which means to agitate or rile someone up.
Swedish and German are closely related, so the words probably just come from the same root word from before the two languages separated from each other. Especially since it's related to hunting and as such likely one of the oldest words in either language, possibly even tens of thousands of years old.
My thoughts exactly, not a coincidemce
@@romaliop I rather believe "hetsa" and "hetsjakt" are simply loan words imported from Germany.
4:20 Czechs/Bohemians have slang term "hecovat" to challenge someone to do something so thats why it stick to them as good term and its word of german origin abviously.
People really overthink it. "Hetzer" roughly translates "persistence hunter"... it's a mobile Anti-tank gun built to reactively "chase" tanks. Enemy tanks break through their lines. Hetzer's go to where enemy tanks are going to be, shoot a couple rounds and retreat, rinse, repeat, doggedly pursuing the enemy until they exhaust themselves. Either being destroyed/damaged, or slowed enough to where the larger army can form an effective defense to see them destroyed. It's designed to be just strong enough, just fast enough, and just tough enough to be able to continue the "hunt". Like a pack of coyotes or wolves. The name makes perfect sense and I don't understand why there is always so much confusion about it.
Excellent Video
"Sargent, we're under fire!"
"Did you spot them?"
"Yes, it's the Jagdpanzer variant of the Panzerkampfwagen achtunddreißig T !"
So, you can imagine just saying "Hetzer" was preferred.
Knowing how allied troops actually reported anti tank fire, I'm guessing "f@#*k! an 88!!!!!!" is closer to the truth. Or maybe, "sh1t!!!!! A tiger!!!!!"
We have the same word in swedish. A good translation would be "stresser".
I did note a distinct lack of Jagdpanzer 38 (t)'s in the classic swedish movie "Hets".
8:42 - the most laconic explanation of Munich Agreement, First Vienna Award, occupation of Teschen area and March 1939 occupation i ever heard.
Interesting discussion!
My first understanding of German verb „hetzen“ was „to harass“ as well as „to hunt down“.
As one, who talks czech language i can add one more probable origin of the name: in czech "hecovat" (sounds as german hetz) means to challenge"
For what it's worth, Dr. von Senger und Etterlin (1968) lists the vehicle as "Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer mit 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48."
I think it was a Tamiya model kit I built in the mid-1960s of a jgpz38(t) that referred to it as a Hetzer, explaining that the term "Hetzer" is the equivalent of the English word "Bushwacker." Bushwacker was an American Civil War term for southern guerillas who used ambush attacks against federal troops. And the German Hetzer was apparently a nasty ambush bug against Allied armor. Of course, an explanation of a German AFV name in English from a Japanese model maker is not the most reliable source. I should also note that the Avalon Hill game Panzerblitz, published around 1968, identifies the jgpz38(t) as the Hetzer as well.
Used to own that game.
@@stevetee5076 I still have Panzer blitz, just could not get rid of it even though we played twice forty seven years ago. I built the Bandi Hetzer kit in 1/48.
That was my understanding from a similar set of sources (except my model was a 1/76 Fujimi from the early 70's).
It is interesting how the action of beating the bushes (i.e., bushwhacking) to drive game towards the hunters morphed into laying in ambush in American English and we see the same transition happening in German 80 years later.
my perspective on the origin of the Hetzer name is that it's based on how the tank soldiers used it in field
now, i haven't read anything about conceptual usage of the Jagdpanzers, all i know is that they're meant to hunt/take down enemy units
here are my details/perspective
on the basis that the name Hetzer, as explained in the video, was an act of chasing down a game animal, either to exhaust or to catch (could be wrong), and also on the perspective that a comment showed me, a term Hetzjagd, which did explain that it was a hunting group of a Hunter and his dog, it might imply that the troops on the field used the Jagdpanzer 38t along with a chase unit either infantry or another tank, in that it's main role was either to cripple or to "mobility kill" the enemy while another unit finishes the prey.
idk, this could be wrong or i'm being "Mr. Obvious".
Not really... the name implies persistence hunting, which means following the prey for an extended time period until it's too tired to continue running or fighting. While this tank destroyer was mainly used for ambushes, assigned mostly to infantry units to defend them against tank attacks.
Such an adorable tank, it's nearly on par with the m22 locust and pz2 luchs.
Thanks for the clarification on the intro cos I just came from the previous video. Had to check both Lol
Btw - great information and thank you for the video
"Hounding" the prey. Running it down.
a video on the panzerkleinzerstörer Rutscher name would be interesting because it's sometime put with the E serie as the E-5, even though the document I could find on the web didn't refered to it as E-5
I knew it as the Hetzer long before I knew it as the [Jagdpanzer] 38(t) and long, long before WT/WoT came out. But. I built a lot of scale models when I was young (1970's) so that could well be purely because of the model kit link Bernhard referenced. I've seen that causation mentioned before and could well see that being the case.
Additionally, for anyone into HR/HM they'd know that Lemmy (Motorhead) used to own and drive one. His was from Finland IIRR and was not used by the German forces.
Coming in a bit late with this, but the Avalon Hill boardgame "Panzerblitz" (published 1970) which was incredibly influential in the wargaming community back then included two "Hetzer" platoons in addition to a number of other jagdpanzer and assault gun types (Jdpz IV, V, "SG III", Marder (which was Marder III) and so on. So this may have been an early source for popularizing the term.
In Slovenian language "hec" (pronounced the same) is actually used in the similar way, either "You got to be kidding me!" or "That's the catch.", and it now all makes sense. We use it almost humorously so I was always under the impression that it meant provocator, joker or someone who plays (tricks) on you... but even that way it makes sense since the prey is tricked into exhaustion. Daily dose of etymology reached, thanks. :D
simiarly there's a "heca" in polish which means Funny or suprising event. maybe there is some similar word in czech
In czech, we have "hec" and "hecovat"(verb) both used as to challenge, or to provoke. For instance if you wanted to say "i bet i will be better than you"
Hetzer is easier to pronounce for English speakers, because the German 'Z' starts with a t-sound and in Hetzer it's explicitly there.
If you want them to pronounce Panzer better, make them think of Pantzer or even better Pantser, because the German 'Z' is hard as is the English 'S'.
Cramped in the gunners loader postion, visibility huge blind spot .they trutly need a infantry screen to watch the sides . Best to dig it in. Shoot and then get to another prepared fighting postion. Out in the open you really to get your head out of the hatch. Plus they should have the logs placed on the sides 3 to 4 logs . Stacked up.
Hetzer sounds a bit like the term "hounding" or "hounding down," of course as it's used in hunting for dogs cornering their prey.
Harrier is a milder word in English. But I wonder if it is related.
To harry - a series of attacks which do not kill, but harras over a prolonged period of time.
@Albert Fels the English equivalent would be 'courser' an animal usually dog or horse used to chase down prey.
@@billbolton Agreed it’s a much better comparative term
There is the expression 'to run something into the ground', as in drive it hard until it canmot be driven anymore; driven/used until destruction.
E.g. 'Tom inherited his grandfather's car and just drove it into the ground' or 'James took over the company and drove it into the ground'.
@@billbolton But it's nothing to do with chasing down prey. It's about following prey until it collapses. The pursuer isn't faster, the pursuer has more stamina. It's the same way people used hunt in the stone age.
@@Kyle-gw6qp it is not just about following a prey, where a prey is not actively taking evasive action (like running) it is the chasing of the prey that debilitates it.
Hetzer gonna hetz 😂
That's the comment I was looking for.
You shouldnt laugh that Hetzer cannot hetz.
I guess the closest engish translation of Hetzer would be "persistance hunter"
Obviously, a bunch of HFY fans who were _very_ fond of the "humans are outstanding persistent hunters" trope came up with the name.
Fascinating that it could be a label given to the vehicle from an unkown place. When did the allies give them names and what were they?
He said The Thing! 2:00 and 10:20
The derivation of the term may even be more messy. Most of the discussions of Hetzer may involve a flawed meta- or underlying assumption. This is that the term must be used in the same way by everyone. It would be interesting to know if it was ever used of other vehicles. Thanks for another presentation.
Irrespective of vwhere the name came from, it's still a cool little "tank"
"Hetzer" is also wonderfully simple in comparison to a lot of other German military words. The English speaking world is grateful for this.
The M-10 Motor Gun Carriage was named Wolverine by a model company and I think the Hetzer name was First used by Tamiya Link to 2012 version.
www.tamiya.com/english/products/25156hetzer/index.htm
So the name Hetzer is like the Sherman being called the Ronson. Ronson did use Sherman-like tanks in their wartime adverts, but there is no evidence to show that the soldiers used this term during the war. Ronson did use a similar tag line in one if their adverts in the late 1920s to their famous one from the 1950s aboutblughting up first time, every time.
Possibly.
I have a feeling they would have mainly been called “Ronsons” by British crews in the same way US crews referred to Sherman flamethrower tanks as “Zippos.”
Because it lights things on fire.
AFAIK they were called ronsons due their susceptiblity to catch fire, not cause some adverts
@@bleidddrwg9847 the adverts with the famous tag line that is usually given for the source of the nickname was post-war. The only other Ronson advert about reliable lighting was a good 12 years before the Sherman came about. However, some of their war time adverts did use the Sherman's outline.
I named my cat hetzer and the more I hear what hetzer means I'm glad i did for he fits his namesake
A rose by any other name would still have thorns.
Just my nerdy thought, but there might not be any documents from the soldiers themselves, until the 1950s. Since operational security is beaten into soldiers such that writing down the names isn't done. But once enough time has passed they'll then just switch over to the names they regularly did use. Think of it a bit like how the A-10 "Warthog" was listed as the "Thunderbolt II" for the longest time.
If I had to choose to vehicles to own, I would choose the Hetzer and the Lynx
Hetzer or StuG: Which would you rather command?
Yes
SU-100
Hetzer gonna Hetz
Stugger gonna Stug
I don't even want
None of the above
I want an ISU
One fifty-two, want an ISU
StuG! Hetzer sounds like a girl's name to a Finnish speaker while StuG sounds like "Sturm G" (storm G). Figure out the G yourself! Short for A "Storm Gun"? Pretty cool!
A StuG, just from the ergonomics alone
I'm not sure if a discussion can be more German than this.
Great video as always.
In this and other videos, Ralf mentions that the Hetzer shoots preferably from a hiding position. That makes it a device for retreating manoeuvres, am I correct?
No defense
@@demonprinces17 Yea, a defensive line that was always retreating.
@@stuglife5514 there is no retreat in military language. There are "tactical movements on previously prepared positions".🙂
@@chefchaudard3580 No it’s attacking the enemy while moving backwards
Hetzers gonna hetz
English speakers are also good pronouncing the German word tiger.
Stug Life came from the game World of Tanks
May I ask for your permussion to use the mentioned sources for my own history studies? Not sure the university would allow it though.
Speaking of the E-10 I am surprised that WoT hasn't "made up an E10 like they did with the E25
Names for armored vehicles can be a bit deceiving at times... I mean the "Maus" was not small at all and so maybe the name "Hetzer" was chosen because it was quite the opposite of it's role as a armored sniper waiting for it's pray.
Czech chassis. Just as good as Stug-lll. Great for ambush. Pretty cramped for crew of 4.
Question.... since the 'Jagdpanzer 38t' was still produced after the war, could it then have been renamed Hetzer then, maybe?
Me watching video. Sees those tanks behind the Hetzer at 5:19.
'What are those?!'
Jagdpanzer IV
*_Tschechnology_*
*Tschechnologie. :D
@@vaclav_fejt Ja
Czechnology
Panzer gonna pen, there you go!
Unless ofc, it's russian stalinium bias.
It 'rolls off the tongue' as we say in English-speaking countries. It could be a misnomer which often happens during translation.
The difference is that #HetzersGonnaHetz and #PanzersGonnaPanz. Good vid!
It's like the whole Me 109 vs Bf 109 thing
I guess Grognard's gotta grog...
Funny that. "Heca" in common polish mean a funny or suprising event. Propably it also exists in czech and other slavinc languages and it sounds same as german "hetzer". that might be cause of their mistake.
Man I´m glad I finaly got a part time job.
The Boys are dripping so hard i´m inspired to grab a new style.
Hetzer moves so slow in War Thunder it infuriates me. Stug forever
The phrase "hetzer" seems to be related to the Swedish term "hetsa" which translates to, essentially, inciting emotion, or agitation. So a way to translate "Hetzer" could be "Agitator".
Why would germans name a czech vehicle a sweedish name...
It is also one of the meanings in German.
@@CARILYNF what i meant was... why would they name that one armored vehicle - out of all they had named - a swedish name? Im pretty sure the germans didn't go " you know what Hans... swedish share the same language root as us!" 'Oh really gunter... lets name the czech panzer 38 t something swedish - im sure the Fürer will applaud it.. after all the swedes are our trade partners"
The language may be related... we also have the word in danish - but i dont go claim they named it after the danish Hetz (which is often used if some one persecute a political opponent for instance.)
That is the silly part
@@CARILYNF
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what?
Gotta hetzen the train in the mornings!
I think Jentz does claim in the preface of his Panzer Tracts series "Jagdpanzer" edition that the term "Hetzer" was an unofficial moniker used in a few cases by troops during WW2, but unfortunately he doesn't give any specifics. Also I've always heard that the "D" in the proposed Jagdpanzer-38D referred to "deutsche" (instead of "T" tschechisch) not diesel, but my knowledge on that terminology is from older publications so it may be wrong.
only 10mm different of steal in the front make the difference between the Stug III B with this monster of a 4 tier AT.
I had a favorite re-enactor. TH-cam kicked him off. He did a video on the "Stug" isn't this a Stug?
Stug-lite, literally. US bombing slowed/stopped Stug production, so SKODA werks was tasked with building vehicle, but their cranes were not up to the task, so they modified Pz38 to fit the role.
@@coachhannah2403 - Excellent answer, concise and to the point. Thanks!👍🏻
@@donnyboon2896 - th-cam.com/video/8PbzVU2vqdI/w-d-xo.html
Is it conceivable that the engineers used Hetzer for the E 10, the other engineers misunderstood, and also, completely separately, the soldiers, on seeing what looked like a small hunter, thought 'Ah that looks like a Hetzer!' perhaps not knowing its actual performance and role? And that this was later taken up into the memoirs? After all, if 'Hetzer' is a reasonably common word in German, I think multiple people might think of using it to describe a Jagdpanzer.
I've seen the word hetzer (in reference to tanks) translated as "baiter" in a number of English publications from the 1970s. As in the ancient practice of bear baiting. Google tells me that the nearest German word that means "baiter" in "Köder"....perhaps it's just poor translation.
To me, it sounds like you need a general theory about how military nomenclature is generated, evolves and degenerates over time in institutional, then conventional use.
Could the name have influenced the usage (or misusage) of the "Hetzer" by the soldiers?
I would want the Stug .
Hetzers gonna Hetz.
In retrospective using hetzer as a class of TD is not so far fetched " we received 20 DDEs" " two jeep carriers were lost" Hetzer could mean "small TD"
Hetzen could also translate to harry. Like to harry someone, but it's more British useage. Actually, it's the first Harrier.
"It doesn't Hetz anything"
So Hetzer's NOT gonna hetz?
Perhaps "Courser" might be an approximate english translation? (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coursing). Just a thought.
It sounds like the closest English translation of Hetzen would be Harry, so you could call the vehicle Harrier if you wanted an English term. Hetzer is more fun though.
I always thought that “Hetzer” translated in to English as “agitator” or “baiter”..
Thats a different meaning of the work. And for that your translation is correct. But it makes not much sense in a tank / antitank surrounding.
A better translation is 'Courser' or "Coursing', which is the use of dogs to chase game
„It‘s not complicated“
But is this REALLY the case? 🤔
Whoever came with this name really hetz a lot of people.
Cute tank, cute name. What's not to like?
Provenonce of the cute name..
Being a crew member in one. Truly awful
I remember Ralf Rath himself saying "This was not 'the Hetzer', but 'a Hetzer'." in one video.
Hetzer cannot hetz.