This question literally keeps me awake at night, I can’t sort it out. How do other mythologies of powerful women as seen in Egyptian and Viking culture influence positive roles and respect in society and some how Greece just deviated completely.
It can be that the ancient societies before ancient Greek society had been matriarchy society. And that society left their marks in the ancient Greek religion. It can be that the tale of Zeus when he became the King of Olympia marked the transition from matriarchal to patriarchal society. There can be a reason for why representing for agriculture in ancient Greek society was a Goddess, Demeter. In primitive societies, women were more inclined to cultivate and gather, while men were responsible for hunting and fighting. Plus, Geek religion didn't belong to only Athen city state, it was a religion of other city states like Sparta. And Spartan gave women a lot of rights and important roles in their society, it is similar to the roles of the Goddesses in Geek religion.
Very informative. I agree that it's an interesting contradiction that Greek stories and mythology of women don't match up with their actual treatment of them in practice. Maybe those stories were inherited from a time in their forgotten past when women did have more autonomy.
2:10 "or Telesilla of Argos who led the women of Argos in battle against the Spartans," You should have also mentioned the result of this battle, it might surprise many. The women won.
Hi Alma, we actually have an entire video dedicated to Telesilla and her leadership of women against the Spartans which has been linked in the video and in the description! th-cam.com/video/X2rotrkPhyA/w-d-xo.html
It would not have surprised me - when someone has something to prove they work harder. Another part of that is sometimes the most dangerous person is the one with nothing to lose.
The information on Sparta is presented as fact even though we have little to no writing from Spartans. Most of the information we have comes from sources biased against Sparta who aim to paint it negatively. Things that we hear from these sources that sound normal today were completely mad in most of the Ancient Greek world. They might have embellished the situation to make Sparta look worse than it actually is from their perspective. Spartan women did rear children. It was even their life mission because they were held at the same standard as men in terms of loyalty to Sparta. Being loyal to Sparta was producing male soldiers. The only women who got proper burial in Sparta were the one who died in childbirth. So, child-rearing, even for high-class women, was as important in Sparta as it was in Athens.
The powerful women in Greek myth who were agents of chaos or danger aren’t too surprising. That’s kinda common in mythology as more of a cautionary tale to men rather than an empowerment story for women. Like Eve or Lilith, women were shown to bring ruin to men, so they should be trusted and shouldn’t be given power. But Athena is completely different. She’s obviously good by their morality. She still conforms to some virtues expected from women, she’s a virgin for one. But her warrior status is a contradiction.
Do you have a video with knowledge about weddings tradition of Ancient Greece or Sparta? I’m curious because many cultur had different traditions in the wedding
I believe the reason there isn’t more information is because the truth was destroyed. No one who worships a personification of the Divine Mother in any of her names would also dishonor a woman. Which makes these histories sound false. It’s fishy how the faces are chiseled off of the statues of Hawthor in Egypt and the truth of the divine mother is turned into one of servitude with a collective “amnesia”
A lot of cultures had some sort of divine mother in their religion. Still didn't change how they treated women. I think since man is born from a woman it just makes sense to believe there's a mother who created everything.
These religions were intact far before Ancient Greece, and it was only after the rise of agriculture that the concept of marriage, property, and heritage were created, resulting in the subjugation of women. So, it sounds false because society didn’t always believe women to be lower; it just became bad for them when agriculture started.
@@megajf1634 the ancient Greeks worshipped many female Goddesses affilated with war, wisdom, the earth, magic, the moon, water, etc not only the 'divine mother'. As did the ancient Romans for that matter and the ancient Egyptians. I think you are basing this statement on the Catholic religion and other male-centric religions. Ancient religions with pantheons worshipped different Goddesses in different roles, precisely like they worshipped different male Gods in different roles.
"I believe the reason there isn’t more information is because the truth was destroyed." I know at least one example that this speculation might describe: Interestingly enough, the Nabataean city of Petra (very Rome-inspired culture) that used to worship a trinity of female deities prior to Islam had greater economic rights for women that the Qur'an appears to have deliberately curtailed: with artificial legislation such as half the brother's share of parental inheritance for a sister instead of zero, or the requirement of two women witnesses per a man in commercial contracts instead of zero: like regression from a fully actualized equality.
What I did not know about women in ancient Greece was how in terms of rights - there weren't any. I used to wonder when I first read about Penelope being overrun with suitors why she just didn't say 'I want you freeloading bums to pack up your crap and be out by tomorrow morning". I learned that she could not say that or even if she did it would not be regarded seriously. She could not even own her roof over her head.
Would you argue that Greek Goddesses and their apparent empowerment in mythology comes from Sparta, where women are have more liberties? And the inverse - would tales of the Sirens/ the Gorgons originate from Athens, where women are treated worse?
That's a very interesting way of looking at it, but to be honest, it's not something that we've seen discussed anywhere. You could be onto something, though. 🙂
I need additional info regarding what was said 6 minutes and 38 seconds into the video… “Women could take male lovers in order to have strong children if necessary” Married women? Widowed women? Any woman? Men didn’t mind raising someone else’s kid if it was strong? I’m confused
The Hetairai remind me of the Geisha of Japan. Independent me ulti-talented female entertainers. Contrary to popular belief, Geisha were not prostitutes, though some did engage in sex work or become mistresses as a way to make ends meet. Though this was officially illegal, so as not to compete with legal prostitutes.
The reason men married girls at that age was because life expectancy was very short so the younger the girl was the more babies she could have. If she died at 20 she could have 2 or 3 babues. The reason men got married at that age was because they were more responsible and experienced with life compared to boys the same age as the girls. A 15 year old boy wouldnt be well established or finacially secure compared to a 30 year old man who may have accumulated some wealth and status.
In Athens there were monogamy ,concubine allowed only when the wife could not bear children. Τhere was patriarchy but there was equality between men and women. I know it's hard to accept that today,because equality today means equal political and working rights. An Athenian man citizen to have the right to vote had to be son of an Athenian man citizen and an Athenian woman citizen. Fathers loved their daughters.Ηusbands loved their wives. One can see the touching inscriptions on graves of wives and daughters in Athens's museums. Men were responsible for political and military matters. Women were responsible for religious and household matters.and the education was appropriate. Women had not the civil right to vote ,but they had the religious organization and responsability. ATHENA the goddess protector of Athens was a female. Some women sacred dignities : ieravlitriai , ieraoidoi , ieropompoi , prothieriai , mystagogai , ydranai , ierofantidai , ierapolai , archieriai ,promantide ,nymfagogoi, dimonassa ecc.
''women in the home'' information is incorrect. women received little to no education. while Sparta women received equal education as their men. and you guys, men had to run the home and run outside of the home. they had a lot of responsibilities. they rarely had the time to fool around.
Why do you think there are so many powerful and intelligent women in Greek Mythology when opportunities for women in Ancient Greece were so limited?
This is a really good discussion question to have with students!!!
Coz there were no lmao
The men probably wanted women to have those equal roles, but felt they couldn’t change society
This question literally keeps me awake at night, I can’t sort it out. How do other mythologies of powerful women as seen in Egyptian and Viking culture influence positive roles and respect in society and some how Greece just deviated completely.
It can be that the ancient societies before ancient Greek society had been matriarchy society. And that society left their marks in the ancient Greek religion. It can be that the tale of Zeus when he became the King of Olympia marked the transition from matriarchal to patriarchal society. There can be a reason for why representing for agriculture in ancient Greek society was a Goddess, Demeter. In primitive societies, women were more inclined to cultivate and gather, while men were responsible for hunting and fighting.
Plus, Geek religion didn't belong to only Athen city state, it was a religion of other city states like Sparta. And Spartan gave women a lot of rights and important roles in their society, it is similar to the roles of the Goddesses in Geek religion.
Very informative. I agree that it's an interesting contradiction that Greek stories and mythology of women don't match up with their actual treatment of them in practice. Maybe those stories were inherited from a time in their forgotten past when women did have more autonomy.
Freud would have called it the Madonna/whore complex. Even in times of so-called chivalry there was a similar discrepancy towards woman.
2:10 "or Telesilla of Argos who led the women of Argos in battle against the Spartans," You should have also mentioned the result of this battle, it might surprise many. The women won.
Hi Alma, we actually have an entire video dedicated to Telesilla and her leadership of women against the Spartans which has been linked in the video and in the description! th-cam.com/video/X2rotrkPhyA/w-d-xo.html
It would not have surprised me - when someone has something to prove they work harder. Another part of that is sometimes the most dangerous person is the one with nothing to lose.
Thank you for these informations!💗 Could you make a video about Pythia? Much love from Greece😘
I love this vídeo so much! Congratulations for you work! ❤️❤️
Thanks for watching! We are so glad you loved it!
Great topic, great video, great channel! Thank you and best regards! ✌
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Thank you for these informations
Our pleasure!
Good job I love this video, I learnt lots that I didn’t even know
We're so glad to hear that. 🙂
I love the way you talk :)
Thank you for the information Kelly!
Our pleasure, thanks for watching!
Very nice explanation
Thanks, Mohamed! We're glad you enjoyed our video. 🙂
Informations very thank you helping informative!
The information on Sparta is presented as fact even though we have little to no writing from Spartans. Most of the information we have comes from sources biased against Sparta who aim to paint it negatively. Things that we hear from these sources that sound normal today were completely mad in most of the Ancient Greek world. They might have embellished the situation to make Sparta look worse than it actually is from their perspective.
Spartan women did rear children. It was even their life mission because they were held at the same standard as men in terms of loyalty to Sparta. Being loyal to Sparta was producing male soldiers. The only women who got proper burial in Sparta were the one who died in childbirth. So, child-rearing, even for high-class women, was as important in Sparta as it was in Athens.
That’s so interesting! Would love to learn more about this.
Great video, thanks! One note: Hipparchia of Maroneia was not a stoic philosopher, but a cynic philosopher.
Thanks for watching! Yep, we're aware. worldhistory.org/Hipparchia_of_Maroneia/🙂
really appreciate this, thank you!!
Thank you! This helped me a lot.
What is “herm” at 1:20??
The powerful women in Greek myth who were agents of chaos or danger aren’t too surprising. That’s kinda common in mythology as more of a cautionary tale to men rather than an empowerment story for women. Like Eve or Lilith, women were shown to bring ruin to men, so they should be trusted and shouldn’t be given power.
But Athena is completely different. She’s obviously good by their morality. She still conforms to some virtues expected from women, she’s a virgin for one. But her warrior status is a contradiction.
Thank you madam for ur interesting and in-depth presentation. From kolkata, lndia
You're so welcome. Thanks for watching!
Do you have a video with knowledge about weddings tradition of Ancient Greece or Sparta? I’m curious because many cultur had different traditions in the wedding
What is the time frame you're referring to here?
thx
And men think they know what it’s like to be one of us.
Ha! Thanks for watching!
I believe the reason there isn’t more information is because the truth was destroyed. No one who worships a personification of the Divine Mother in any of her names would also dishonor a woman. Which makes these histories sound false.
It’s fishy how the faces are chiseled off of the statues of Hawthor in Egypt and the truth of the divine mother is turned into one of servitude with a collective “amnesia”
A lot of cultures had some sort of divine mother in their religion. Still didn't change how they treated women. I think since man is born from a woman it just makes sense to believe there's a mother who created everything.
These religions were intact far before Ancient Greece, and it was only after the rise of agriculture that the concept of marriage, property, and heritage were created, resulting in the subjugation of women. So, it sounds false because society didn’t always believe women to be lower; it just became bad for them when agriculture started.
@@megajf1634 Society wasn’t always misogynistic; early women had it better
@@megajf1634 the ancient Greeks worshipped many female Goddesses affilated with war, wisdom, the earth, magic, the moon, water, etc not only the 'divine mother'. As did the ancient Romans for that matter and the ancient Egyptians. I think you are basing this statement on the Catholic religion and other male-centric religions. Ancient religions with pantheons worshipped different Goddesses in different roles, precisely like they worshipped different male Gods in different roles.
"I believe the reason there isn’t more information is because the truth was destroyed." I know at least one example that this speculation might describe: Interestingly enough, the Nabataean city of Petra (very Rome-inspired culture) that used to worship a trinity of female deities prior to Islam had greater economic rights for women that the Qur'an appears to have deliberately curtailed: with artificial legislation such as half the brother's share of parental inheritance for a sister instead of zero, or the requirement of two women witnesses per a man in commercial contracts instead of zero: like regression from a fully actualized equality.
What I did not know about women in ancient Greece was how in terms of rights - there weren't any. I used to wonder when I first read about Penelope being overrun with suitors why she just didn't say 'I want you freeloading bums to pack up your crap and be out by tomorrow morning". I learned that she could not say that or even if she did it would not be regarded seriously. She could not even own her roof over her head.
Yep, women in ancient Greece had few rights, especially compared to other ancient civilizations like women in ancient Egypt. Thanks for watching!
Would you argue that Greek Goddesses and their apparent empowerment in mythology comes from Sparta, where women are have more liberties? And the inverse - would tales of the Sirens/ the Gorgons originate from Athens, where women are treated worse?
That's a very interesting way of looking at it, but to be honest, it's not something that we've seen discussed anywhere. You could be onto something, though. 🙂
I need additional info regarding what was said 6 minutes and 38 seconds into the video…
“Women could take male lovers in order to have strong children if necessary”
Married women? Widowed women? Any woman? Men didn’t mind raising someone else’s kid if it was strong?
I’m confused
Married women.
What about female healers that were tried as witches ?
We'll consider that for another video. Thanks for watching!
👍👍👍
I see the familiarities of this ideology in some of today religions having spent a number of years outside of the county I was educated in.
Demeter is pronounced dih-'mee-ter
The Hetairai remind me of the Geisha of Japan. Independent me ulti-talented female entertainers.
Contrary to popular belief, Geisha were not prostitutes, though some did engage in sex work or become mistresses as a way to make ends meet. Though this was officially illegal, so as not to compete with legal prostitutes.
It takes a very long time for men to accumulate resources and honor enough to sustain an entire family.
The reason men married girls at that age was because life expectancy was very short so the younger the girl was the more babies she could have. If she died at 20 she could have 2 or 3 babues. The reason men got married at that age was because they were more responsible and experienced with life compared to boys the same age as the girls. A 15 year old boy wouldnt be well established or finacially secure compared to a 30 year old man who may have accumulated some wealth and status.
The first medicine was from a woman - Medea -- what do you mean, 'the first doctor of Athens?' -- I think your inquiry into the data is what's biased.
They believed women were more in touch with "The Wild" and needed man for Logic since they acted more on emotion
Yet the god of wisdom was represented as a woman.
Well this hardly sounds civilized.
In Athens there were monogamy ,concubine allowed only when the wife could not bear children.
Τhere was patriarchy but there was equality between men and women.
I know it's hard to accept that today,because equality today means equal political and working rights.
An Athenian man citizen to have the right to vote had to be son of an Athenian man citizen and an Athenian woman citizen.
Fathers loved their daughters.Ηusbands loved their wives.
One can see the touching inscriptions on graves of wives and daughters in Athens's museums.
Men were responsible for political and military matters.
Women were responsible for religious and household matters.and the education was appropriate.
Women had not the civil right to vote ,but they had the religious organization and responsability.
ATHENA the goddess protector of Athens was a female.
Some women sacred dignities :
ieravlitriai , ieraoidoi , ieropompoi , prothieriai , mystagogai , ydranai , ierofantidai , ierapolai , archieriai ,promantide ,nymfagogoi, dimonassa ecc.
Mmm that wasnt equality…..
''women in the home'' information is incorrect. women received little to no education. while Sparta women received equal education as their men.
and you guys, men had to run the home and run outside of the home. they had a lot of responsibilities. they rarely had the time to fool around.
Absolutely not true. Most men certainly didn't wait til they're 30 to get married.