5:03 Every time I watch this scene I can't help but think that Kira watching the Cardassians from the shadows looks like a Sith Lord proudly observing her apprentice having a better understanding of the dark side of the Force.
Every society with Section 31s tries to convince itself of that... if they succeed, it allows them to suppress their guilt for the atrocities committed in their name.
Did all of those people really die so that Federation ideals would always be followed to the letter? Or did they die to keep their friends and families from being conquered and killed by the Dominion? If you asked them I doubt you'd get a firm consensus on whether Admiral Ross was really giving a "glib answer". Some would agree, some wouldn't. I find Bashir rather childish in that exchange, I really wish that Ross had given a better accounting of himself so it wasn't just Bashir being self righteous the whole way through.
Agree, bashir is a child. There’s no rules in war, especially against an enemy like the founders who routinely use genocide to get what they want. NOT using every means of stopping them is unacceptable.
Ross gave the answer of a man that knew that paradise is a lie. The federation hides the ugliness of the dire situation of earth with colonies in the far galaxies and the violence in the rogue.
I like DS9, but I also see its flaws and the way it betrays lots of original Trek principles. It’s a war show and all the characters are soldiers. Sisko is as vicious and vengeful as anybody. Admiral Ross is a stuffed shirt without any ideology - how many corrupt admirals are there under the Berman Trek run? At this point it becomes sort of a joke that the Federation is some enlightened, utopian civilization - there’s no evidence of that anywhere, with the singular exception of Picard. And perhaps Julian, who seems to be the only one who holds anybody else to moral accountability. One thing that bugs me is that when DS9 ends, almost every single culture undergoes a revolution - Bajoran, Klingon, Ferengi, Cardassian, Changeling... but not the Federation, even though its revealed that there is plenty of corruption, paranoia and unaccountable military intelligence at play, those things are glossed over. You need America to win WW2, right? That’s the story all the guys at Paramount wanted to tell. Has nothing whatsoever to do with why Trek was conceived. And yet there’s a lot of good stuff in the show, I wouldn’t ever dismiss it. But this stuff bugs me more and more. Idealism doesn’t exist anymore, imagination doesn’t exist, its just American geopolitics from a bunch of military history fans (see also: MCU).
You're throwing in this masterpiece with the MCU...LoL. Gene's vision of some futuristic communist state was still flawed as corruption is inherent to a communist system. The admirals did their job and saved the lives of as many living beings as possible. The federation did not poison the founders but they would benefit from it. It would be profoundly stupid to not do that as in the end it stopped the killing of Cardassian citizens in the final episode. Complete moral purity comes at a great cost and even the federation isn't stupid enough to pay it.
In addition to that the federation didn't need any revolution as it came out of the war as the strongest victor. The ferengi had a social revolution that was long overdue...the federation is already at equilibrium with gender crap. The kingons and Romulans were decimated in the war and they required change to make up for their terrible losses. Their political systems were unstable while the federation's political system was not. Maybe the federation was a bit corrupt at the top to some extent but that's communism. It's actually a nod to how good Gene's vision was that his system survived a all out no holds barred Galactic war. It's a great show with excellent characters and a better view of the grayness of morality. Picard is very much a standout and is the 1% of the 1% of the federation when it comes to sticking to moral platitudes. The real federation is not quite so clean and that's why you don't like DS9 as much.
DS9 is kind of like the naive children of the federation meet the real world. The series wasn’t believable anymore, they needed to show one of the eras of conflict alluded to so many times. There’s always going to be periods of peace and periods of conflict. Only showing the good times paints a corny and unrealistic picture
2:18 Really rich coming from Sisko. Odo should have ended his friendship with him then and there. I hate Sisko's story arc throughout DS9. He just becomes more and more of an unlikable hypocrite.
This is why star trek enterprise will always be the perfect version of star trek. It showed what a true United earth would look like. People from different cultures all in the command structure of its flagship. A captain that understood that they had no right to judge other societies and their customs. Picard saw the federation as something better than all the other cultures but was really just as flawed as any other society.
For Some reason I see in my mind Captian Picard yelling at Admiral Ross and Captian Sisko Like the time Wesley Crusher was In front of Picard being given a Lecture about Honor and saying If you can't do it then you don't deserve to wear that uniform
Picard is not in Sisko and Ross' situation. He is the flagship captain at best, Ross and Sisko are battle sector commanders in wartime. Picard is no slouch at combat but Sisko and Ross are wartime leaders , who strategize and fight with every trick they can find to win. I imagine Sisko and Picard having a second conversation with Sisko liking Picard even less .
@@SantomPh you can't compare Picard and sisko. Picard enjoyed the illusion of paradise whereas sisko understood that Starfleet was not a exploratory unit but a military unit to keep order in the galaxy. Ross was a desperate man that realized that the past had reasons for some of its brutality.
All Sisko did was give the same answer to Odo that Ross gave to Bashir. I wonder just how Starfleet as a whole or the Federation would feel if they knew the full story. I could see it splitting everything in two. So many who lost loved ones would hate to lose more so agree with the decision but many would also say they died in vain if they are protecting a Federation that condones genocide.
It’s such a cheap argument though. The founders themselves are guilty of genocide and currently waging a war where genocide is a tactic. Enabling such an enemy mid war is tantamount to sentencing your own people to death. Push comes to shove, every group will fight for their own very survival above any lofty ideals. That’s life and it always will be 🤷♂️
@@ufoinsider6932 Not the federation of Star Trek. Not how its supposed to be. They would rather be wiped out to a man then let those actions happen in their name. They are actually fanatics about it.
@@roberthollingsworth8940 Fanatics don't turn to extremes, they ARE extreme by definition. It is extreme to treat all others equally, even under pain of your own annihilation. It's crazy, suicidal, but that's the federation.
@@ufoinsider6932no, you are wrong it will not always be, I think we exist so that one day everything will be made right, we all exist to unite❤ and I believe all that is wrong, will be eliminated forever. 🕊️💐
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. G'Kar
For people upset over who did this or that, remember this. Wars are messy. People do things in war, like train otherwise well adjusted men to become mass killers, in order to bring victory. You can either fight to win, or plan on losing. Regardless, preaching from the safe confines of a warm safe home is just childish.
Revolutionary Damar, emerging from the shadows to boldly defend his countryman, take two of the occupiers in as many seconds, and rescue the innocent bystanders from his explosion. If I saw this scene in a propaganda film, I'd call the director a hack 🤣
5:03 Every time I watch this scene I can't help but think that Kira watching the Cardassians from the shadows looks like a Sith Lord proudly observing her apprentice having a better understanding of the dark side of the Force.
Or Kira remembering her past, when she might have said those same words.
@@ericshoemaker9140 *watching Cardassians fight and rally the way she used to*
"This is so fucking weird."
Every society has its section 31
America might even have 31 Section 31s
Only those who survive.
Incorrect
Every society with Section 31s tries to convince itself of that... if they succeed, it allows them to suppress their guilt for the atrocities committed in their name.
31 is a must have
Did all of those people really die so that Federation ideals would always be followed to the letter? Or did they die to keep their friends and families from being conquered and killed by the Dominion? If you asked them I doubt you'd get a firm consensus on whether Admiral Ross was really giving a "glib answer". Some would agree, some wouldn't.
I find Bashir rather childish in that exchange, I really wish that Ross had given a better accounting of himself so it wasn't just Bashir being self righteous the whole way through.
Agree, bashir is a child. There’s no rules in war, especially against an enemy like the founders who routinely use genocide to get what they want. NOT using every means of stopping them is unacceptable.
Ross gave the answer of a man that knew that paradise is a lie. The federation hides the ugliness of the dire situation of earth with colonies in the far galaxies and the violence in the rogue.
Those who successfully pass a reality check acknowledge the necessity of an organisation like Section31.
I like DS9, but I also see its flaws and the way it betrays lots of original Trek principles. It’s a war show and all the characters are soldiers. Sisko is as vicious and vengeful as anybody. Admiral Ross is a stuffed shirt without any ideology - how many corrupt admirals are there under the Berman Trek run? At this point it becomes sort of a joke that the Federation is some enlightened, utopian civilization - there’s no evidence of that anywhere, with the singular exception of Picard. And perhaps Julian, who seems to be the only one who holds anybody else to moral accountability.
One thing that bugs me is that when DS9 ends, almost every single culture undergoes a revolution - Bajoran, Klingon, Ferengi, Cardassian, Changeling... but not the Federation, even though its revealed that there is plenty of corruption, paranoia and unaccountable military intelligence at play, those things are glossed over. You need America to win WW2, right? That’s the story all the guys at Paramount wanted to tell. Has nothing whatsoever to do with why Trek was conceived. And yet there’s a lot of good stuff in the show, I wouldn’t ever dismiss it. But this stuff bugs me more and more. Idealism doesn’t exist anymore, imagination doesn’t exist, its just American geopolitics from a bunch of military history fans (see also: MCU).
You're throwing in this masterpiece with the MCU...LoL. Gene's vision of some futuristic communist state was still flawed as corruption is inherent to a communist system. The admirals did their job and saved the lives of as many living beings as possible. The federation did not poison the founders but they would benefit from it. It would be profoundly stupid to not do that as in the end it stopped the killing of Cardassian citizens in the final episode. Complete moral purity comes at a great cost and even the federation isn't stupid enough to pay it.
In addition to that the federation didn't need any revolution as it came out of the war as the strongest victor. The ferengi had a social revolution that was long overdue...the federation is already at equilibrium with gender crap. The kingons and Romulans were decimated in the war and they required change to make up for their terrible losses. Their political systems were unstable while the federation's political system was not. Maybe the federation was a bit corrupt at the top to some extent but that's communism. It's actually a nod to how good Gene's vision was that his system survived a all out no holds barred Galactic war. It's a great show with excellent characters and a better view of the grayness of morality. Picard is very much a standout and is the 1% of the 1% of the federation when it comes to sticking to moral platitudes. The real federation is not quite so clean and that's why you don't like DS9 as much.
DS9 is kind of like the naive children of the federation meet the real world. The series wasn’t believable anymore, they needed to show one of the eras of conflict alluded to so many times. There’s always going to be periods of peace and periods of conflict. Only showing the good times paints a corny and unrealistic picture
2:18 Really rich coming from Sisko. Odo should have ended his friendship with him then and there.
I hate Sisko's story arc throughout DS9. He just becomes more and more of an unlikable hypocrite.
Damar would have made an excellent Cardashian leader if he didn't die. He went down as a martyr instead
This is why star trek enterprise will always be the perfect version of star trek. It showed what a true United earth would look like. People from different cultures all in the command structure of its flagship. A captain that understood that they had no right to judge other societies and their customs. Picard saw the federation as something better than all the other cultures but was really just as flawed as any other society.
4 dominion collaborators disliked this.
For Some reason I see in my mind Captian Picard yelling at Admiral Ross and Captian Sisko Like the time Wesley Crusher was In front of Picard being given a Lecture about Honor and saying If you can't do it then you don't deserve to wear that uniform
Picard is not in Sisko and Ross' situation. He is the flagship captain at best, Ross and Sisko are battle sector commanders in wartime. Picard is no slouch at combat but Sisko and Ross are wartime leaders , who strategize and fight with every trick they can find to win. I imagine Sisko and Picard having a second conversation with Sisko liking Picard even less .
@@SantomPh you can't compare Picard and sisko. Picard enjoyed the illusion of paradise whereas sisko understood that Starfleet was not a exploratory unit but a military unit to keep order in the galaxy. Ross was a desperate man that realized that the past had reasons for some of its brutality.
I always thought it was brutal how Garak stabbed that Jemhadar right in the neck, what a way to kill him lol.
He should have never told him.
in the end it helped stop the war earlier and easier
Dominion War he could have cured him and not told him.its war time to do the distasteful is part of business.
@@dominionwar1185 That couldn't have been known.
Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!
All Sisko did was give the same answer to Odo that Ross gave to Bashir. I wonder just how Starfleet as a whole or the Federation would feel if they knew the full story. I could see it splitting everything in two. So many who lost loved ones would hate to lose more so agree with the decision but many would also say they died in vain if they are protecting a Federation that condones genocide.
It’s such a cheap argument though. The founders themselves are guilty of genocide and currently waging a war where genocide is a tactic. Enabling such an enemy mid war is tantamount to sentencing your own people to death. Push comes to shove, every group will fight for their own very survival above any lofty ideals. That’s life and it always will be 🤷♂️
@@ufoinsider6932 Not the federation of Star Trek. Not how its supposed to be. They would rather be wiped out to a man then let those actions happen in their name. They are actually fanatics about it.
@@PressA2Die But "fanatics" of any kind are quicker to turn to extremes when thier existence is threatened.
@@roberthollingsworth8940 Fanatics don't turn to extremes, they ARE extreme by definition.
It is extreme to treat all others equally, even under pain of your own annihilation. It's crazy, suicidal, but that's the federation.
@@ufoinsider6932no, you are wrong it will not always be, I think we exist so that one day everything will be made right, we all exist to unite❤ and I believe all that is wrong, will be eliminated forever. 🕊️💐
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. G'Kar
So section 31 won the war
Dirty truth
More so garak,by decoding cardassian orders before or during battles and bringing the romulans into the war on the federation and klingon side.
@@kevinwalsh9662 who would contribute more to victory:
The secret CIA for the quadrant's greatest superpower, or
one tailor boi
For people upset over who did this or that, remember this. Wars are messy. People do things in war, like train otherwise well adjusted men to become mass killers, in order to bring victory.
You can either fight to win, or plan on losing.
Regardless, preaching from the safe confines of a warm safe home is just childish.
i would have like to see the federation fall and be brunt to ash
In star trek discovery, in the 32nd century, the Federation almost collapse cause of the Burn incident
Revolutionary Damar, emerging from the shadows to boldly defend his countryman, take two of the occupiers in as many seconds, and rescue the innocent bystanders from his explosion.
If I saw this scene in a propaganda film, I'd call the director a hack 🤣
Giving them the cure would end the war. Its pure about ideology for the founders. About solids being threats.
A necessary arrangement
C’est pas grave tu me fais