This "From Scratch" Browser Will Take On The World
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- People have bugged me to talk about the Ladybird browser and the work of Andreas Kling for a very long time and this is as good a time as any, just a few days ago the Ladybird Browser Initiative with plans to develop this browser into something amazing.
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No mention of the million dollar donation. Sorry to hear your viewers are bugging you.
I didn't spot that until after the upload, I should pin that actually
Tried to find some reference for this. Anyone having a link?
@@shiningstar7481 Defunkt the treasurer posted it to his Twitter
Wow, dude. Relax.
@@AntonSlavik I think it's the most chill mention of what is worth mentioning.
Blink is based on WebKit, which in turn is based on KHTML, originally developed by the KDE project to display documentation. But things quickly got out of hand, KHTML was the first browser to pass the ACID test for advanced CSS, and it also had its own lightweight and fast JavaScript engine. So Apple forked it to create Safari. There was lots of drama because Apple rewrote KHTML in Objective C, didn't upstream anything and instead released their fork as a massive undocumented archive with no history or documentation. That event really demotivated the KHTML team, and the project ultimately died. And a few short years later, Google did pretty much the exact same thing to Apple, and Chrome was born.
But yeah, Servo and Ladybird are rather interesting projects. Servo has a lot more industry support and is part of the Linux Foundation, but it's fun to root for the underdog.
I should do a history video on the evolution from KHTML
@@BrodieRobertson This would be really cool. +1
@@BrodieRobertson You should, it's a fascinating story. And it happened during the big browser wars between Netscape and Microsoft. Two big corporations fighting each other, and along comes this scrappy crew of enthusiasts showing everybody how it's done. And even though the project ultimately fell apart, it's easy to argue that KDE won the browser wars. All Blink and WebKit browsers identify as "KHTML, like Gecko" to this day.
Yeah provided that majority of Apple depends on BSD codebase. That was a pretty shitty move to not contribute anything upstream
@@seansingh4421 one of many such moves by Apple.
Actually, some people are genuinely interested in Servo. For example, the Tauri people who want to move away from WebKit GTK as quickly as possible. In fact, most projects that want an embeddable rendering engine for the web are interested in Servo, as it's one of the few engines that were built with embedability in mind.
GTK almost scared me away from UI development until I found out about immediate guis. Or even just Qt. I have no idea why there even is WebKit GTK, since SwiftUI exists and Apple doesn't care that much about Linux. I am definitely lost somewhere. Also what is Servo exactly?
Servo is a webengine; the thing rendering html, css and js for your browser. Projects use it to render the web in their app ;)
@@twenty-fifth420 Apple kept WebKit as a community project even though most of the community followed Google's fork to Blink aka the Chromium rendering engine. GTKWebKit predates Blink and is mostly maintained by GNOME people even though it lives in the Apple WebKit source tree.
Servo was Mozilla's next generation browser engine written in Rust, they took parts of it and bolted it onto Firefox and then stopped development on it and fired the Rust and Servo teams, though it lives again as a Linux Foundation sponsored project.
why do they "want to move away from GTK as quickly as possible"? isnt the goal of tauri to utilize the browser engine native to that platform?
For me it's a bit amusing, that all these years Wine uses Gecko as the embedded engine (to mimic MSHTML :) )
It’s fantastic this exists. I had a look several weeks ago. Pre-alpha is fair. It ran and resolved pages but couldn’t run the JS heavy stuff I was looking at.
Report bugs, lol
@@DryPaperHammerBro yeah, that’s the issue. I just don’t have enough spare anything for that. If I’d come across Linux now rather than in the early 90s I doubt I’d use it
Isn't that a good thing though, from a security standpoint at least? It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that most browser vulnerabilities stem from use of Javascript being as widespread as it is.
If anyone feels like arguing that point, please, pray tell; why is it that most security checklists for 'securing' your browser, include blocking/disabling javascript entirely?
To be clear, it's not Javascripts fault per se, not entirely at least. But, it is a fact that most browser vulnerabilities stem from Javascript now and a days. Back in the day, it was stuff like that ActiveX with Explorer. Then Chrome came along.
And now we can't wait for it to leave, permanently. We, as in, all those of us who refuse to let Chrome touch our computers.
@@billeterkluckily for us Linux now isn't the Linux we had in the 90s.
Js ruined the web. It might just be sloppy js.
So…the next browser wars would be Servo vs Ladybird?
The next war will be whatever is forked in the future from Blink/Chrome and Blink/Chrome.
Any "next" browser forked from Chrome is on the wrong track before it started.
With all due respect I think the reason why any corporation provides funding for a non profit is extremely important
It is, but nowhere near as important as the obligation said non-profit legally has as a consequence of receiving said funding.
As in, as long as there's no legal obligation that states we have to do this and that because we get money from you, then whatever. You can brag about it, virtue signal all you want, or say you care about our cause when you clearly don't. Money is money, as long as there's no strings attached.
I want to give this comment multiple likes
@@marioprawirosudiro7301 I think that is true, though at the same time, a legal obligation is not going to make me less wary of the intentions of business people
Yup: that is how the finance industry and/or CIA sabotaged Bitcoin.
Started funding 1MB block initiatives as far back as 2014.
By 2017 the transaction backlog was weeks long as the Core Developers refused to scale to meet expected transaction demand.
Money always* has strings...@@marioprawirosudiro7301
Proud 'knower' of Ladybird before watching the video
KNOWER is a petty cool band.
yaya
@@SianaGearz, true
same
@@slendi9623 yo nice
WebKit started as a fork of KHTML, an Chrome started as a fork of Webkit
its all KHTML
@@onlinezwang
Kits kall KHTML
Actually no, chrome used to be webkit at the start, then forked later
I'm looking forward to seeing how this browser develops, as we really do need another browser to break the duopoly.
They need to get it to run on Windows natively in order for there to be any chance of success.
@@davidfrischknecht8261 As long as it runs under WSL2 and supports regular solutions for X-window or Wayland, most Windows users that can run "wsl --install" and some "curl -s [url] | sh" should be perfectly fine.
@@davidfrischknecht8261 why support a nonfunctional operating system?
Safari…
@@davidfrischknecht8261sad but true :(
Massive props to Andreas for first developing an OS and then a web browser on top of that. Nowadays the latter might actually be the harder one to build, given how much they actually have to support. Imagine them as entire operating systems on their own
ChromeOS Would Like To Know Your Location 🤣
@@XenHat ChromeOS is just linux running Chrome
"Imagine them as entire operating systems on their own" where the only thing lacking is a decent browser. :-)
It’s kinda like Carl Sagan’s “in order to make a pie truly from scratch, you must first create the universe”
"bugged me to talk about the Ladybird browser" I see what you did there :)
Well actually, ladybugs are not true bugs, they are beetles 😂🏃💨
@@rolandixor i will uninstall your package manager
It’s a pretty decent name - lots of projects suffer from bad naming
@@rolandixor are beetles not themselves bugs?
@@pessimus nope lol - not in entomology. Beetles are coleoptera, and bugs are hemiptera
A browser is the holy grail of software development. There's basically nothing more difficult to create from scratch.
I wish the project much success :)
I'd say an OS is the hardest thing to build from the ground up from scratch
If they want to build a browser with wide adoption, the move towards using 3rd party libraries was excellent. they were able to delete 100k+ lines of code and they don't have to write a video decoder, local database etc.
Having ffmpeg sqlite etc helps a LOT.
I wish we had both (OS + browser) but it's too ambitious, I think now it has a way higher chance to become a full featured browser. Less effort to implement things and less effort to support serenity OS (which is an amazing project but it would require way too much effort).
i just hope they dont try to implement their own password storage like other browsers and instead support some password managers.
@@turtlefrog-tn3ek That would create inconvenience for regular users who don't use password manager. I know it's not the right way, but it's the default way so many people store their passwords.
@@user-xv8xh2ib6p Very true.
What we need is not the same password manager used everywhere, but a common format. Something that is standardized, secure, and can make interoperability between different password managers possible. So if we're tired of one pass manager, we can just ask it to give us our passwords in a file, and then let the new pass manager import said file. I don't know if there's something like this in widespread use.
@@user-xv8xh2ib6p make it an easy extention?
@@turtlefrog-tn3ek Just allow extensions. Anyone can create one to integrate with a desktop application or online service. Software devs can provide official support for extensions too. No need to over complicate things on their end.
Integrated password managers are a bad idea all around. Security aside, far too many users actually _rely_ on their browser's ability to remember passwords for them. If they cleared their cache and passwords, many would outright lose access to multiple online accounts.
I think if someone needs a password manager, it should be its own thing. Web browsers do too much as is.
That Serenity OS screenshot looks similar to my XFCE setup. Looks nice.
My first thought: just opensource and resurrect the Presto engine, which was the best until Opera got lazy. But on second thought, fromscratching might not be a bad idea.
Opera 12 is ♥.
I miss Presto.
Well, there was a leak of Presto's sources plus people wrote some patches for it, but... Would it be really worth it, even if it was an official release? IIRC, Opera's engineers were complaining about the need of carrying a bunch of hacks as part of browser distribution, because sites like GMail were introducing artificial issues for the engine...
Opera has industrial customers on the engine so they don't want to open source it for a variety of reasons. Your car probably runs QNX (Blackberry OS) and probably has Presto on it, not Chrome.
@@SianaGearz Yes but that was years ago. There's no reason to use Presto nowadays, and car stereos have since switched to other browser engines like WebKit. I don't think industrial customers would even want to use Presto in 2024, it was simply outdated and unmaintained since Opera switched to Blink.
As much as I understand that it's still really early in its life, I think you may have missed a golden opportunity to record this video using the Lady Bird browser for reading their webpage.
I _just_ learned about Ladybird the other day, and I've gotta say: I'm super hopeful.
Glad to see a more popular channel talking about it. There's almost _no_ information on TH-cam.
Following Andreas for over 4 years now great to see these projects mature
Well, hello friend!
WHF :^)
The funny thing is... Blink derived from webkit and both webkit and Gecko (at least partially) derived from KHTML
KDE is to blame for Chrome
@@BrodieRobertson Noooooo
Andreas Kling is nothing short of a genius. Finally a browser that is not Chromium based and that makes possible to break from stupid decisions from those Firefox maintainers.
Too bad he’s a bit of a milkshake duck, and does silly things like denying that the singular “they” exists.
@@QUINTIX256 That's normal, not silly.
@@QUINTIX256 Yeah sadly you can be a genius and an ass. As proven by the likes of Stallman. At least Torvalds recognized his assery at some point and (I think) strives to do better.
@@miller42 “Roses are red, violets are blue
Singular ‘they’ predates singular ‘you’”
@@CodecrafterArtemis Torvalds went through a struggle session.
There are five "magnum opus" projects I can think of right now. Browsers, due to just how many standards and features exist, and how many edge cases come with them. Operating systems, you start from quite literally nothing and have to build up everything. Compilers, requiring so much parsing and conversion, not to mention standard libraries. Emulators, which simulate an entire computer with a completely unique instruction set. And physics engines, which require probably the most math you'll come across while programming.
Strange that I do not find rolling all of those into one project, much more unreasonable than doing one on its own...
this is bringing back IE6 trauma, as a web developer
I've heard interviews from Andreas I think I saw talks from him too. Serenity is cool. I'm glad something useful might be coming from that project. :)
I'm still looking forward to servo but eh, more choices, noice
Servo has always been the future. Google retired funds because otherwise they would have lost their monopoly.
Um actually, Servo was a Mozilla project
@@crash.override correct me if im wrong but majority of mozilla's funding is from google to avoid officially being a monopoly or smth
@@crash.overridethey probably mean that google is controlling Mozilla via these big donations and tell them how to manage it. So their idea is that Google told Mozilla to drop the project and focus on something else. At least i guess?
servo is a beta male project.
@turtlefrog-tn3ek
Beta male comment.
I'm a sucker for independent browser(Still pissed at opera for killing Presto), I knew of the OS effort and the browser but didn't know it will be available elsewhere, definitely going to keep an eye
When I saw the title, I thought Brodie was going to talk about the NetSurf web browser (an independent open source browser for RISC OS).
This is one of the best pieces of news I've heard in a long time. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the video title.
I'm logging onto my PC right now to subscribe to their mailing list.
Not that it actually matters, but Blink is a fork of WebKit. Not that they have much in common nowadays. :)
Presto also deserves a mention, a part of me still want it to be Open Sourced but that train has long departed. Probably would be so far behind Ladybird would be more usable by now anyway lol, as well as Servo if you limit the discussion to engines.
WebKit is also a fork of KHTML lol
There was never a train. Opera's industrial customers value security by obscurity, and they still use Presto.
@@SianaGearz don't they realize, the thing that is keeping them safe is their ultra low market share and not worth the efforts, and not the obscurity?
@@SianaGearz Train? what? Steam, diesel, or electric? Nuclear?
@@moetocafe Well i never claimed their decision was all too smart, but market share doesn't matter in this regard. See market share is only valid between equivalent targets, so say an Apple OSX computer and a Windows computer give an automated bulk attacker the same benefit once backdoored, but there's a lot more Windows computers around, which makes them a much more viable target; similarly it would make sense for malicious webpages to attack Chromium or common libraries such as libwebp used by all modern browsers. But industry customers have to consider the likelihood of attacks targeted towards them in particular.
I've been following this project (and Serenity) for quite a while now, it's SUPER impressive.
The browser hacking videos that Andreas has put out in the past were really fascinating to watch!
Good luck to them!
Nice video, mate. Thoroughly researched and presented. Greetings from Adelaide.
I'm also excited about Servo, but it's pretty far from being a full fledged browser right now
_sees title_
Servo servo servo
_brodie mentions servo_
Yay~
4:58 Especially considering that the web standard is pretty much an operating system at this point.
The ethos of the project about not using code from else where is that they are about implementing themselves as a means of learning how to do it (and it avoids IP disputes)
Very excited, we really need this and I have hope.
dang. I was more excited about the OS than I was the browser, and was more excited for andreas just working quietly and slowly on it until forever.
but I'll go check out what he says about this project and his attitude towards it. maybe he's still not feeling pressured.
I've been following the SerenityOS project for a couple of years now and was always puzzled by the duality of the project focus with the browser in tow. I'm glad to see Ladybird browser receive the attention that it needs.
The number one thing a browser can do to actually get my interest is simple, restore a session with 5000 tabs without coming to a crawl. That sounds like an insane task but the reality is, not really. A user is only looking at one tab at a time, "restoring 5000 tabs" *_should_* mean loading one data structure that's at most a couple of megabytes big into memory, and then pulling one tab (whatever tab the user is actually focussing on) from an on-disk cache and loading it up. Outside of things like music playback, video playback, video conferencing, etc. a tab does not need to be loaded in the background yet I am not aware of a single existing browser that actually manages it's resources effectively. Things like suspenders exist for chrome (though firefox appears to be even worse off somehow) but they still take quite a few resources (restoring a couple hundred tabs will still bring it to a crawl) and since they're extension-level instead of browser-level they're limited in what they can do.
If a new browser came out tomorrow that saved tabs to disk on-the-fly (you could store thousands in a few gigabytes of disk space, the only real complication here would be things like media playback such as yt videos.) and natively had a good way to manage them (like tree based tab management) it'd instantly gain more than just my curiosity, it'd gain my attention. As it stands there isn't much room left for browsers to meaningfully differentiate themselves to the average user, but better battery life, a more responsive computer, *_and_* not having to babysit your tab counter, deal with bookmarking things, etc. (along with conveniently having a psuedo-archive of your tabs if you go offline) then that's immediately a lot of things that it'd have going for it that can't be mirrored by other browsers.
(to be clear here, I'm not trying to shit on people who just want to do their own thing for the sake of it, my point is moreso about pragmatic adoption. If you want to do your own thing then for it's own sake that's obviously fine, but when it comes to seeing real world adoption and use you really need a differentiator. Most browsers never considered this in their infancy, so they're stuck incredibly inefficient. However, a new browser that is starting without nearly as much legacy has second-move advantage and can plan ahead by adopting a more scalable design from the start.)
I've noticed this being a trend with my friends lately, having a bunch of tabs. I've always been curious as to why so many are necessary. I've always been about staying organized, even having specific browsers for certain tasks, with 3 tabs at most. It works for me but wanted to know why and how 500 tabs work for certain people
@@swagmuffin9000 It depends on the person but, broadly speaking, if you do a lot of shit you'll have a lot of things that you are moving on from for right now, but want to have available for later. Bookmarks *_should_* fill this gap, but the issue is they aren't automatic, don't save page-state at all, ("this page has unsafed form inputs"!) require the entire page to be redownloaded, aren't very convenient to use heavily, and you can't easily keep a group of them together and updated.
For instance say over your lunch break you hear about this brand new programming language you want to try called Orin or something. Well you'll search it, find a few pages that seem interesting on it, middle click middle click middle click, you've got a collection of 10-15 that you find interesting, and now it's back to work. You can try to save those all to a bookmark folder, but then if you're scrolling youtube and find another video about Orin you need to open the tab, bookmark it, find that bookmarks folder, add it, close the tab, and move on again. *_Then_* if you do start reading one of those tabs and realize it's just AI generated incoherent nonsense you can't just close the tab, you need to go out of your way to remove it from that bookmarks folder too.
As it stands the only real option for managing things you want to go back to later is the bookmarks system, but it's another entire system. Instead browsers could have just been designed a bit more inteligently and not try to keep every tab open simultaneously, so all it takes to save a tab for later is to... come back to it later.
Chrome is already starting to realize this with their "save tab groups" feature which allows you to group tabs and then "hide" (close) them all at once, restore them all at once, etc. but it's imperfect. For one, the tabs still take resources, it's just a system for closing/opening them a bit more conveniently than bookmarks. For two, it's not compatible with tab suspenders. For three, it's still completely online-reliant. That may not seem like an issue, though it really should, but even ignoring the obvious over (and unnecessary) reliance on constant connectivity there is the other issue that restoring a tab group might look like a DDOS if you have several tabs of one site in that tab group. I have actually had tabs reopen to cloudflare blocks because several from the same website all tried to reopen at the same time. Browsers are starting to realize that this is important, but they aren't designed in a way that makes it easy so you get hacky solutions like "Save tab groups" where it's just a slightly easier way to open/close groups of tabs at once.
Browsers plain and simple should not be trying to constantly keep every tab loaded. It's a privacy concern, it's a resource usage concern, (which also means power usage and battery life. Before KDE6 broke tons of shit I had a widget on my laptop taskbar that showed my power draw and having tons of *_suspended_* tabs open would take me from idling at 6w to 10-20. That's a 2-3x reduction in idle battery, when nothing is actually happening. Those tabs do not need to be taking any resources, but they do.) and it's a basic practical use concern. Keeping tabs constantly loaded is completely unnecessary and outright harmful in both theory and practice, but due to the fact that it wasn't previously very reasonable since HDDs were slow and small, RAM was slow(er) than it is today, there were fewer total sites you'd likely need to be looking at, etc. almost no browsers actually thought about it, so we're stuck with how it is now. So even though in the modern day we have enough instant-access SSD storage to store hundreds of thousands of tabs completely, restore them instantly, etc. we're still stuck choosing between keeping all of them constantly loaded in-memory, or outright closing them and reopening them later.
@@robonator2945 I have always had the tendency to open many tabs when I do research on a certain topic at least since the early 2000s, within the limits of memory and hard drives speed available in those years.
The only interface that vaguely supports this way of using a browser is the tree tabs organization, which you mentioned. But it is far from ideal: now that the resources available on a PC allow it, I tend to open thousands of tabs and it is easy for me to get lost among them (certain extensions to search for tabs by words in the title help a little but they are only a stopgap measure; tab grouping, as in Vivaldi, also helps but it is not the final word).
I've been thinking for a (long) while that an interface that uses (human) spatial memory, like a zooming user interface (ZUI), could make things a lot better (let's forget about the "tab" concept). Especially if it were accompanied by a search function that doesn't just search a single page, but can search all pages or a group of pages, if desired. If it also worked offline, allowing one to visit cached sites, it would be even better.
Linked "transclusions", as imagined by Ted Nelson (Xanadu project, inventor of the word "hypertext"), would be a plus. He has had some interesting prototypes at times, but this field has never paid much more than lip service to the concept of "user experience" and so he was ignored (when not attacked).
P.S.: I do agree with all the points you make about offloading non-visible pages to conserve resources.
About 7 years ago i started scoping out making a web engine. I gave up because it's insane how much work it would be. Just legit error cases alone were insane.
The part about "not using external code" sounds a bit weird to me. Gecko is open source. Webkit is open source. Google's engine is open source as well.
Nope. This is not a browser that will take over any measurable part of the web. They have chosen legacy C++ toolchain. They cannot compete with Gecko, which is mostly ported on Rust and Google's resources for Chromium. They are fine as a small project, but no they have no chance in scaling this way. It may be interesting experiment in browser architecture though. Their modular design is cleaner then existing engines, though that by itself doesn't give much practical advantage, which is why the other engines haven't refactored to something similar.
The damm timing, I was just looking this up!
Wish opera continued their presto engine
Ladybird is not the future, sadly. It is really hard to make something like it actually fast, as it was never designed with performance in mind (unlike servo). So it is unlikely that it would ever be a competitive option performance wise.
Arnt chromium and webkit both based on khtml from the konqueror browser?
and now konqueror is just chromium
@@netkv true it uses qtwebengine which uses chromium.
chromium is based on webkit is based on khtml
gecko is based on netscape's engine
both engines date back 20-30 years ago
Sounds exciting, I'd definitely try it out!
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. A third option would be fantastic.
Love the punch-glass on the desk.👍 Say it has not broken since the video.
I'm hoping the servo engine makes progress and is used at some point since rust has done well
As a dev that also has to do web dev this makes my toe nails curl.
I hope this does not end up like another Internet Explorer thing. I am all for new js engines and especially if they are not linked to google in any way but it brings back bad memories man :D
lets hope it does not come to that
I can see wasm+canvas only browsers coming soon
So what plans are in place to ensure against purchas by Microsoft or Google Earth if this browser becomes successful?
Cloned the repos, and yeesh, Servo is huge. Including the hidden folders, such as .git, Servo is 2.1GB while Ladybird is only 326MB. Eschewing the various hidden folders, Servo is still 928MB and Ladybird drops to a mere 87MB. This is why we need to wipe out the entirety of the preexisting internet infrastructure, all of HTML/CSS/JS, and replace it with a better design that doesn't take nearly so much bloat to get working. I'm just going to keep saying it until it gets in everyone's head and they can't help themselves but to bring this idea to fruition. Wipe it out, all of it.
the truth that nobody wants to hear, but sadly i don't think it's ever going to happen
Interested in working on the projects thnx for sharing man
does it support webusb? I sometimes use web based software that interacts with USB and MCUs
SlimeVR flasher or GWolves web mouse "driver"?)
Never heard of Ladybird before just a few days ago.
Adding a comment for the algorithm.
But if you want my actual thoughts (for whatever reason), I'm really excited to finally see a browser made from the ground up and I hope this project keeps growing.
Ladybird vs. the world
i'll definitelly keep an eye on it, we trully need more alternatives for browsers
Is it ahead or behind netsurf web browser at current state?
Light years ahead
@@kreuner11why did they project 2026 for alpha? Are there important specifications that are still unimplemented? How is it for browsing on a daily basis by average users?
@@bltzcstrnx yes, it is better than netsurf for sure, but the browser nerds plenty of optimization work (it is slowwww!!) and many web APIs are still unfinished
Sweet! You mentioned Floorp. Never heard of it until I tried Garuda Linux.
Could someone explain the appeal of the Ladybird browser? It's independent but... why is that beneficial? I've heard of Servo before which picked up attention, not only for being independent, but also for being embeddable, memory-safe, etc. While it's cool to have another browser engine option, I'm not sure what the real world benefit of Ladybird is supposed to be beyond that.
At first I thought it could mean more competition, but doesn't Servo and forks of the big 3 browsers/engines (Chromium, Firefox, WebKit) already sort of fill that role? Furthermore, if there is a tangible benefit to having a fourth browser engine, why shouldn't everyone be putting their resources behind Servo to become the fourth engine? As mentioned before, it seems to have additional benefits beyond just being independent. If I'm not mistaken, it has also been in development for longer.
(Not trashing Ladybird, just genuinely asking)
There is basically no competition at the moment. Google won, Firefox will likely die in the near future, as it struggles to at least keep it's current users, and the Apple browser is well... Apple browser.
To keep the scales balanced you would probably want to have at least 5-6 evenly matched rendering engines at the same time. We need at least 4 extremely succesful newcomers then.
Hipsters like to be different just for being different.
@@JanVernythe problem is browsers aren't profitable. Not even that, they can't even break even with the development costs. Hence why no companies in this world are willing to compete with existing solutions. Making the code available for both Firefox and Chromium exacerbate this issue. Other companies would just prefer to fork or re-skin existing solutions.
How are they planning to implement all esoteric CSS features, especially those obscure ones? HTML rendering with basic 90s styling is (relatively) trivial compared to rendering with all modern styling features.
can't wait to use ladybird embedded framework to create a performant electron competitor
It's great to see an independent browser engine but what would be really great would be a new protocol and markup format. Something like a stripped down version of HTTP/HTML that has much less tags and has a defined way of communicating with an API. This way you could have dynamic calls to something like a rest API in a builtin way, like a but without reloading the page and obviously without any client side scripting (basically builtin HTMX without javascript). Client side scripting wouldn't be allowed at all, no layout, no styling, all of that would be defined by the client but some degree of formatting so you get more than just plain text. Basically as much formatting as you'd get in reader mode, that would be the ideal amount if not too much already. And no, I've heard of Project Gemini and I think it's great!
I'm still dreaming of a browser where you can edit the context menu,
How hard can it be?
So there's nothing yet and there'll be nothing for a long time and there's a high chance there will never be anythong at all, best video
We need more people talking about this, thus more people will contribute.
I am still excited about Ekioh's Flow browser, which has been around for years now and seems pretty stable. Multicore and GPU accelerated. One of those rendering engines that targets a very specific group of engineers and is not known outside of that group, i guess.
Ha, didn't knew about it. But I just have to say, I just went to their website, and the latest blog post is from 2021...
I do like to see other web browser project like Ladybird, as mentioned in the video Firefox does has some BS that people ignore just because there is no other competing option from Chromium based BS ....but I do hope that Servo does become something as as it seems promising project as Rust based browser, and KDAB has been working on embedding Servo within Qt which would be nice if it ever becomes usable/stable enough
My only hope is that they make the browser dependent on "extensions" rather than making everything a feature enabled by default. If someone wants the option to group tabs, play/pause TH-cam in the browser, play/pause TH-cam on your Volume control, have a tabs menu on the bottom/left/right, and so on should have to enable or download an "extension".
It's honestly baffling that setting up a browser is almost as bad as setting up Windows in this day a and age...
How can using a linux kernel be ok if external code is not allowed?
SerenityOS has its own kernel. It is completely from scratch with the one exception being GCC.
@@Mad3011 Wow. I did not realize that. That's ok then I guess. Thanks for correcting me.
First time I'm hearing about LadyBird, and my hopes go out them
I really want to see them succeed with this
20+ years of lessons learned being thrown out.
This is cool! I dislike Firefox more with each update, but Chrome always manage to be worse. I use Gentoo, so I have nightmares when WebKit wants to compile. I would really, really love a new contender. I also discovered Serenity OS thanks to this video. Man, it is a good looking OS! Going to try it now
Saw from scratch in the title. Got linux from scratch flashbacks. Fun but hellish project
Finally they are getting some attention!
New browser from small developer is difficult to take off, especially for general use. The reason is it is very difficult to get DRM implemented to play Netflix, Prime video, etc.
It wasn't clear if Ladybird is doing their own js engine like Google's v8 or if they are doing that too. Supporting js abusing sites is not going to be trivial.
Css 3 + HTML 5 is already very complex and a big step from older simple stuff. It definitely requires full time paid devs to start implementing those complicated features.
The lineage is: KHTML > AppleWebkit > Webkit > fork to Blink. That's the power of the GPL. Ladybug is BSD licensed. That might become long term issue.
It does indeed have its own js engine.
It supports all the modern web standards to some degree (though things may be buggy or missing here and there).
Andreas has experience working at Nokia and Apple on their browsers, so this isn't brand new territory for him.
@@Bobbias that's impressive. The world needs a free non corporate encumbered browser.
But both Webkit and Blink have been pretty bold rewrites. The original projects have not benefited from the "longevity" of the codebase lineage. So does it matter?
@@SianaGearz it most definitely matters because the code remained gpl as it developed and evolved. Apple could use khtml because it was gpl but had to give back changes so google used it then forked but still had to give back changes. Then most of the world used blink because code had to be published and shared. That's one of the more impressive gpl successes, though linux kernel is probably biggest success. Or Blink. Depends on how success is measured. There's a reason corporations don't like the gpl, it's a very strong license.
Holy shit, this is by the SerenityOS guy?!
isn't webkit the basis for everything chrome-related anyway? is Blink not based on webkit?
Yes but it's very much it's own thing now
I've dreamed of this day for so long.
And the long term source of income on to pay those devs will be only trough donations?
Shopify could develop this into a point of sale and/or self service terminal maybe. And a basis for other apps. 🙄
Laydbird is the Hank Hill's dog from King of the Hill.
What about Kolibri OS? It would be great to run Ladybird on Kolibri.
2:55 I've heard that before.
If they want a wide adoption, they need a Windows version...
Did you know that you have a very small offset between your audio and video?
We need to be careful about supporting projects that only support proprietary communications for their communities in the free software space.
would be cool to see a competitor to google and firefox thats not based on some already established engine.
"Do you like web browsers?"
I do! In fact, I am writing this from one of them!
I dodn't know about this!!! Thanks!!!
I like to thank the guy bugging you to make this video lol.
at least 56K love your SUPERB OWL shirt without excessive advertising
Pretty sure for a short while Presto (formerly Opera, now Vivaldi) was the 3rd most common engine.
I care about servo since it is rust
Can You try it out? So we (the people who are not that tech savvy) can see how it looks and the current state, something to spect or anything else. Good video 😊😊
Got no clue what the chicken pot pie is made of ...
Hope they give us the chance to try Lua for the font end
13:30 that's me :D
:D