Atheist Debates - Appeals to Personal Experience
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- Part of the Atheist Debates Patreon project: / atheistdebates
You're more likely to hear about people's personal experience with religion in a testimonial form than any of the standard arguments for the existence of God.
In this live presentation from Gateway To Reason, I talk about the problem with appealing to personal experience and how to think about those appeals when you're talking to believers.
And, there's a bonus magic trick.
"The plural of anecdote isn't data" - excellent quote.
Hmmm... I wonder about that. It seems blatantly false, specially when dealing with real life.
I'll put just an example. Let's say you're walking down the street and you see lots of people running the opposite way you're going and when asking them they all say they all saw an armed group beating people in the street and are running away. Do you go "the plural of anecdote isn't data" and go that way? Or do you take that plural of anecdote as a strong indication of the real state of things and act accordingly?
Huh? Of course it’s data.
Restaurant reviews is data.
@Telemachos of Ithaca Very good answer.
That's why I came here.
@@natanaellizama6559 So let's just add to your story. Say you are a police officer that is walking and people are running in the opposite direction of you and they're saying the same thing as you stated. As a police officer you get on your radio and advise your dispatcher. The dispatcher gets other officers heading to your location. You search the general area, other police officers search a larger area and all officers find Nothing. So you are puzzle. Then you decide to collect all street camera videos and videos from business in the area. You ask people to come forward with any cellphone video and you see only people running but no armed group of people beating anyone. What is your disposition of the call?
I cannot disapprove your personal testimony that Jesus helped you find your car keys , but you cannot disprove my personal testimony that I searched and prayed for years with sincerity and got nothing but silence in response.
***** But... but... car keys!
+uncleanunicorn You prayed and got nothing but silence?
...so I guess you still haven't found your keys? Bummer.
Oh wait. They've got that covered too. God helps those who help themselves. So maybe you looked on your own and found the keys. Thank you Jesus.
Bruce Baker I keep them on top of the refrigerator.
+uncleanunicorn Personal experiences only counts when you're a devote Christian! ;)
BackRowRacing98 Because that's where confirmation bias takes over.
Sometimes I think to myself "I could do atheist video on YT" then I hear Matt speak and think never mind lol
You have to start somewhere. I guarantee he wasn't this good when he started. You find your rhythm and your voice after a while, it's very rare that people can be like that from the start. He's been doing this forever.
+WaRLoKWYATT
I agree, it's a bit like stand up comedy, the more you do it the better you get.
I know exactly what you mean. I saw so many eloquent people express themselves, I'm like- never mind.
Caesar Augustus Too True but +WaRLoKWYATT has a good point
I could make such videos, it's just that there already are so many of them that it seems unnecessary.
I love your talks. I really do. Especially the fact that you emphasize, over and over again, that we won't win over people by calling them stupid.
Demian Haki I find myself telling atheists online not to call people stupid just because they hold stupid beliefs. It's not their fault they were indoctrinated
ThePharphis I also thought that was good and it's got to be a really important point for atheists to remember, if you're talking to someone from Saudi Arabia then calling them stupid for being a Muslim is like calling them stupid for being born. Same goes for Christians in bible-belt America, same goes for Hindus in India. Someone has no control over their place of birth nor can they choose the family into which they're born.
@@ThePharphis Should that mean they can't enjoy it? I was brainwashed by religion, does that mean I can't enjoy it? Religion is a minimalism, it's just the smallest minimum necessary to accept a sweeter reality, that's right, even though you may misunderstand why this is true and yes atheists know all about religion, when they're not learning, but are questioning beliefs. And because I'm not a piece of shit, I don't question my beliefs, but I don't anymore go to the extreme where someone wants to burn me for believing in Luciferianism, my mother nearly killed me for what I believe, and I'm still alive, I don't get tied into martyrdom, I don't die for my beliefs, and I know it sounds painful to you, but you have an easier life if nobody kills you for your atheism, your Christianity, Islam, whatever you are.
@@charlesfraunhofer7893 I'm struggling to connect your comment to mine. I can barely even understand what you're saying
“Win over people”? You’re sounding like an evangelist.
Yeah, my youth pastor roommate (back when I was still Christian) told me that if I couldn't literally hear the voice of God, I wasn't devout enough. Then, when we angrily parted ways in 2014, he told me he never said that.
I've always enjoyed your magic trick analogies. I think it helps people to understand the point your making, as they can probably relate to it...
well, unless they think you're a sorcerer working for the devil.
+David W He has mentioned doing some tricks for fellow navy members. And some said "Yore ub da debil".
He's a sorcerer a,magician
I absolutely love how Matt has developed into the orator he is. Great speech man!
I love Matt's lectures.
It reduces the amount of BS that usually comes from the callers on the Atheist Experience.
Thanks Matt, a very interesting analysis of a hugely important topic. When I was a devout Roman Catholic I used to tell people about two supernatural experiences I had in response to prayer, both quite miraculous in their positive effects on me. But when I read more about cognitive psychology I came to understand that these prayers merely worked to unlock parts of my own psyche that were keeping me in misery. Good psychotherapy can achieve the same results, occasionally just as quickly. Prayer obviously can do amazing things, at least to the person doing the praying. But that's because our minds exercise control over how much grief we're willing to allow ourselves to experience.
If a person is being made unhappy by their own behaviour, it's cathartic to call it sin and have Jesus instantly remove the desire to do it. That explains so many of the 'I was a hedonist' conversion stories.
Depression, grief, shame, embarrassment are all debilitating emotions that can often be shaken off by the power of a story; one we tell ourselves. In my case (very Catholic) Our Lady or my own, recently deceased mother appeared to me and removed the acute grief I was experiencing. For other people it's Jesus. There's NO DENYING the power of these incidents, they can be utterly transformative. But they come from inside our own brains, which has evolved to keep us alive and from the catastrophic 'sin' of despair, which leads to suicide, one big mofo of an evolutionary dead end.
I'm curious, if you don't mind, can you elaborate on your 2 miraculous experiences?
Hey Matt, it's me some guy named Matt.
A few years ago I realized how much of a unique perspective I have on the personal experience argument and I've actually mentioned it a few times when people bring up their own personal experiences. The unique perspective is this: when I was 5 years old I saw the tooth fairy. Now obviously I didn't actually see the toothfairy, but when I was 5 I was convinced that I did.
So at the very least they need to accept that if me seeing the toothfairy doesn't convince them of the toothfairy's existence then their personal experience can't convince me. However, going further they also need to understand that not only are personal experiences unconvincing for others, but that they are talking to someone who recognizes that personal experiences can be completely wrong.
every talk you do gives me the impression of a badass mic drop at the end
My mother claims that her "personal experience" was "feeling pushed" towards the altar during confirmation. She thinks that's enough to justify believing despite absolutely no other evidence for *40 years.* Yet she has no problem dismissing the incident I had where a huge black dog pinned me to my bed, looked me dead in the eyes, then vanished when I blinked. (which I would only years later conclude was sleep paralysis)
I have also felt "being pushed" too, back during a youth gathering and in church when they managed to convince me to drink poison. The most horrid, disgusting wine I had ever tasted. *TWICE!* The feeling of all their eyes looking down on you literally feels like you're being shoved by invisible hands and your brain goes numb. It's terrifying in retrospect.
So what I'm saying is I have a *hell of a lot* more reason than she does to believe in the supernatural, but don't, and she somehow doesn't see the issue there.
I like everything about your comment, but i'm replying only so i can say "holy cow" about the sleep paralysis bit.
I've heard some other references to sleep paralysis, but none as specific and eloquent as yours. I've experienced it only a couple of times, and it was _much_ milder than you describe, very short duration, such that i'd describe it more as confusing than frightening. But your experience sounds downright harrowing. Holy cow (again), i hope that's not something you experience with any frequency!
I had paralyzing experiences of ghosts when I was 10 years old, which was a lot like your black dog experience. I concluded the same thing. Only in my case, it was men wearing black robes whose faces were also black but they had glowing red eyes. They walked in a single file next to my bed. Then one of them passed his hand over me as he walked by.
Thanks for another great talk!
Matt has entertaining, clear and very useful advice.
I always enjoy his talks. He is a great speaker, without overdoing it.
Great talk, Matt. Thanks for doing this.
How the fuck did you post this 19 hours ago??? That is magic right there lol
WaRLoKWYATT I transported through time, of course. Just pop into the wormhole and take a left at Albuquerque. Easy as Pi.
OK, in reality, I am a Patreon supporter and we get the vids a day or so ahead.
It's hart to believe that Matt had a fear of public speaking, he's so damn good at it.
This was such a good conference! thanks for coming!
Wow, Matt...you have become quite the speaker. Very concise and well spoken.
Another amazing talk. Thank you for what you are doing! it is appreciated by people all over the world!
This is by far and away my favorite Matt talk. He's in his element here!
It was funny hearing his religious interjections like "for Christ's sake" or "thank God that's not my life". That second one was almost certainly on purpose, but the point is that I find myself doing the same thing on accident all the time. It's so engrained in our speech to reference these things.
Hang on if the argument is that your attempt at "finding" God didn't work because you have a sinful nature then how the Hell are "sinners" supposed to find this God who, btw, is supposed to be a forgiver of sins? Also doesn't that negate Free Will in that you want to find God but he won't come out of hiding in your case but will for others?
Yet again, with Christianity, add 2 to 2 and you get Pi.
pilgrimpater I like pie... apple, pumpkin, key lime...
Michael Anderson
4/3 π r3 s
OoOOOooo, maths...
Michael Anderson Pi, the reason mathematicians are called number crunchers.
Nom, nom, nom...pi is delicious...
finally told a neighbor to stop witnessing at me. they were ok with it only saying "I'm just used to doing that." it's been a couple years and we get along fine.
If I increase my Patreon contribution, will you tell me how you did the Johnny Cash card trick?
Perfect topic for this video considering how The Atheist Experience went this week. BTW, that last guy Randall had to be a troll.
THIS - Is why I enjoy Sundays!
My father is a pastor and both he and my mother are full of crazy (I could stop right there) stories about things they did or things that happened to them when they were in what's called the Charismatic movement in the 70s and 80s. Supernatural healing, telekinesis, teleportation, wild shit like that. It was actually one of the main things that kept me convinced for so long, and even after I lost my faith I would lie awake at night wondering if my parents are literally just liars? What the hell could it all mean? The realization struck me the other day that, even if what they were saying was true- That apparently God was healing people left and right before I was born, but after I was born I would watch my parents and congregation pray every sunday for someone who would quietly pass away from cancer a few grueling weeks or months later . . . None of it matters with regard to my faith anyway, because I can imagine and have known people from other walks of life who simply don't have parents with the same experiences mine claim to have.
Personal anecdotes might be useful for the person who directly experienced them, but they're absolutely useless to everyone else because only a handful of people know that person enough to have any reason to believe what they're saying is true- And to absolutely everyone else, it's just hearsay. We're talking about a God powerful enough to create the whole universe from scratch, but who's apparently incapable of undeniably revealing his divine nature to 99.99999999% of human population. So who gives a shit? I hope if there's anyone out there with a similar story to mine that this helps them out a bit. The cognitive dissonance can drive you wild if you let it.
Wonderfully put as always, love listening to Matt speak!
Hot Damn.. Your presentations are interesting and wonderful on many levels and I appreciate you making them available. Thanks!
This a damned fine talk! No calling anyone names - just solid reasoning and some outstanding psychological analysis of adherents of *both* sides of the argument, by a man intimately familiar with them.
I'm nearly always impressed by the way Matt handles theological arguments anyway, but I'm pretty sure this is his best yet. I'm sure it will help atheists and believers alike in their discussions - assuming they actually listen to what he's saying, rather than what they *think* he's saying.
thos was a great speech and an awesome weekend. so many great speakers. I can see my bald head lol
32:00 Well, Craig *has* appealed to personal experience and revelation when being interviewed by another Christian; it was his go-to answer (something about "the self-authenticating witness of the holy spirit"). He only brought up logical arguments to be condescending to his critics and as a way of relaying a script to the already-convinced.
Such great stuff all the time, Matt. Loved the bit about how we've already won if they refuse to defend the god they actually believe in. That's so true, but I've never thought of it that way.
The talk was fantastic, but the Johnny Cash trick was so beautifully executed, I forgot what we were talking about.
very good presentation of the essence of human failing in assessing personal experiences and the backdoor for religions to exploit and invade our world.
I like to think that immediately right after the video ended, his old church really did burst in through the doors going, "THERE THEY ARE! TELL THEM!!!!"
How I like to explain it is "imagine you had never heard of this concept before in your life, would your personal experience lead to towards this conclusion still?"
Usually it's a no
I listened to a young man who had been a devout Mormon before becoming atheist. He told about praying fervently to know if the Book of Mormon was true. After much prayer, he heard a voice that told him it was true.
barbara henninger I spent the first 21 years of my life wanting to own my very own horse. Well I worked hard, saved up and I was able to purchase the horse of my dreams. My mom said “see God answered your prayers.”. No, I worked two jobs to save up money. That’s was me, my work, no one gave me a horse or answered a prayer I never prayed. Why does God get the credit for my hard work? I always resented that. When it was something God, praise God, but something bad, oh God works in mysterious ways. Screw that bullshit.
This is brilliant. Thank you, Matt.
My personal experiences were the only reason I became a believer and stayed that way for about a dozen years. I know now that these "spiritual" experiences are physical in origin.......{commented before watching. Reflecting on the title}
love the magician card tricks , always great to learn how they did it
+jmm1233 It's satisfying to learn how they did it. But also slightly impoverishing. We want to know. But once we find out, aren't we also a bit let down? The wondrous becomes the mundane.
I myself was raised christian, stopped believing and became an atheist, then had a NDE and started believing in god, became a hindu for a while, then again stopped believing in even my own personal experience.
Another awesome video... :-)
Matt you are awesome and have a fan for life!
This was a good discussion Matt
The problem with personal experience is you cannot measure it to see if it's true. It's only one person's testimony and that's not a good form of evidence.
Ive been waiting for this
You and lee lemon are my favorite youtubers. Matt you seem so cool.
thoroughly enjoyed your presentation ...was there ... had to watch again ... similar background, indoctrinated southern baptist ... probably no less than 2500 sermons in my estimation
Good to see you've got yer boots on!
Very cool talk and magic!
as a scientist i would like to say thank you Matt.
Okay so how DID he do that magic trick!?
Probably knew the guy. Or god did it. First answer is probably right.
@@hambone8820 well hell I used to do magic. All kinds of forced choices.
I thought there was going to be a Q&A part.
***** he said it will be on their website. Don't know if it's up yet.
I’ve yet to hear an argument for a god or religion that wouldn’t also apply to any other god or religion.
There’s a Columbo episode with Jack Cassidy where this card trick is explained...
that trick was dope
Actually that quote about revelation and hearsay is from Thomas Paine.
This just in: Local Atheist gives all the glory to God that his life has turned out the way it has 🤣 Love your videos, Matt. You are truly on a different level, intellectually, than the general population, In the atheist community and in the theist community.
i'd like to know how he did that trick! That was great.
Clifton100 My guess is all the cards he didn't read off had johnny cash written on them
OneWingedAniki Interesting. Probably so.
Clifton100 The trick was definitely in the cards. The envelope always had Johnny Cash in it. This is obvious because the cards are an unnecessary step to get to the envelope. If the envelope could be switched Matt could have just asked someone to pick a celebrity from a list. Instead a card with the name written on it was picked from a deck, something everybody already knows is a common tool for slight of hand in the magician's trade. Matt did some slight of hand with the cards to show the volunteer that the card they picked had Johnny Cash on it. I would guess a thin card or plastic film kept up the sleeve that he fitted to the picked card.
Justin Boggin
Thankx, I always like the help because "magic" always seems to flummox me.
OneWingedAniki Pretty much what I think as well.
In my version: His deck has 60 cards.
He has a complete deck with JC (ha!) written on all of them, plus eight more from a second deck with the "other" celebrity names he shows us. Although we get to see the names on these cards, we have no idea what their face value is. After going through the first eight cards, we are now informed (presumably to save time going through all 52 cards and calling out each celebrity's name) that he's written "a whole bunch of celebrity names on there", as he shuffles BACK through the cards we just saw; this I assume helps give the impression "all" the cards are different since the guest just definitely saw eight different cards, then saw eight cards with different names, even if it was shown a lot faster (and backwards); the guest DID see 16 cards with varying names. The impression of Truthiness is now set.
He then flips the deck over (the "other" cards are now at the bottom) and asks for a face card. He can then go through the entire complete deck to find any card the volunteer asked for before getting to the 8 "others". He likely also sticks the matches for the "other" cards at the very top in case the guest calls for whatever face card they were, he can hit the JC versions right away. He probably has those eight cards memorized so that if a guest does call for one of them, he knows to make sure to find them at the start of the deck. Asking if the volunteer is happy with his first choice makes sure they and the audience feel there's no coercion in the choosing of the card. More trust is built either way and there's still zero chance of the trick not working.
From there, it's all showmanship. The displaying of the gradually more accurate Johnny Cash is also very nice. At first, a somewhat skeptic person could say "Yeah, a stickman, could have been any celebrity", until he eventually shows the full poster. So even the skeptic is nudged into a "wow" mindset, having been allowed to be (misguidedly) right in his skepticism, although 100% wrong in thinking the card was ever anyone but Johnny Cash, then guided back to "Damn, he's right!".
Nicely played.
Here's the thing about personal experience...
Their experience is supposed to convince me.
But _my_ experience can't be expected to convince _them_ - obviously! Hell, my experience supposedly shouldn't convince _me_ !
GTFO with that noise.
Matt, I really look up to your work. I've been trying to learn more about philosophy, Ive taken a few philosophy classes ( Phil of science, Ethics, Critical thinking, etc) and I was wondering if you could/had a suggest/ed a reading list specifically on philosophy?
I think the only magic trick I have seen that stumped me is the one where David Blaine puts his hand through a jewellers shop window and takes a watch out of it.
Not gonna lie that magic trick was pretty dope :D
Prayer is just telling your imaginary friend you know better.
If you every ask them about personal experience it tends to go to appeal to probability , as in X happened in my favor therefore god it. Or it goes to god of the gaps, as I heard this inner voice.
What about other personal experiences that at the very least are strong indicators against a materialistic atheistic position? I heard an inner voice isn't really the god of the gaps btw
I would say the argument from personal experience is the only proof of a diety. A poor one, but the only one I struggle with
I'm sorry, but people from different religions claim the same and not all of them can be right. Joyce Meyer claims talking to god and so do many other people. I"m not critizing you, quite the oposite. I would like for you to reflect on that fact, it might help you. It sure did for me
"The audio was corrupt..." Oh yeah? Maybe it's you that's corrupt, Matt. Just kidding, great video.
All of us have personal experiences that we reflect on and decide that they were miss leading. We are not rational beings and need a process to weed out the illusions we build in our minds.
We are rational beings but not completely rational.
Yes, but what if after reflecting the evidence of an experience provides a direct contradiction to the materialistic viewpoint of many atheists? They will simply dismiss it as "personal experience" and not actually deal with it.
Bro, I'm in St. Louis now. Come back!
Matt and I share the same pet peeve. Nothing irritates me more than being told by a Christian that god reveals himself to those who genuinely seek him, and I must have not done it correctly. Screw you.
I assume the key to the trick was that he allowed the participant to change his mind only BEFORE letting us know the card was Johnny Cash. Maybe Matt had another deck up his sleeve with every card with Johnny Cash written on it. I think that's the trick or something close to that.
I'd like to see those cards from up close.
Just brilliant!
When trying to figure out how Matt did his trick, is the simplest explanation that he and his friend planned it out beforehand and just said they didn't plan it out?
Multiple posters in the ? Envelope.
He only showed a few names at the beginning. It is possible 90% of the deck had "Johnny Cash". And it is possible that there was an entire deck of "Johnny Cash", followed by a few duplicates with other names.
The deck has a few that say other celebrities. The rest say Cash. Even the ones he had that said other celebs were duplicated in the deck so no matter what you chose you got Cash. YW
That was fantastic.
That Johnny Cash bit was golden! haha
This is sensible to me.
I like to know when I've been wrong all along; having been wrong is bad enough.
Unlike Matt I merely wanted to be a minister. I wanted to model myself after my pastor. So, wanting to get a leg up for seminary, I read the KJV cover to cover. As I reached the last "Amen" I realized I was no longer Christian.
The prophecies either so vague they can be molded to fit nearly anything or, if explicit, failures. It is beautiful poetry in places and with careful cherry picking fine fruit of knowledge of right and wrong may be found. My minister had done that and preached a message of love and tolerance, of honor and morality.
This book also authorizes slavery by giving rules on how to do it right.
How is a book in which can be found the basest evil alongside the most exquisite good a guide in any way. As one slaveowner put it, "If the Bible needs "interpretation" it may be perverted for any wicked purpose." The "wicked" purpose he had in mind was the northern bible non-literalists who opposed slavery using the same Bible.
____________
Yeah, personal experience. If you had had my experiences you would believe as I do. Of course there is only one person who has had any given set of experiences. You, too, have experienced a unique set of experiences. In other words, if I were you . . . I would be the only person having had that set of experiences, not you.
Thomas Paine is the one that said that quote not Hume. Just clearing that up.
The ending was golden! Lol
The fact of the matter is...do believers (theists who use emotional appeals) not have a friend who tells them when they are projecting? Have they never had a personal, emotional experience about something mundane and had a friend tell them they are overreacting? Humans are equally terrible at introspection as they are skilled in purporting false emotional claims about the most elementary experiences.
A friend of mine did have deep personal religious experiences and when I told him "None of that sounds like god, that sounds like a manifestation of the psychotic break you were treated for. It sounds more like your brain turned on itself", he was like "But it felt too real to not be god! Also, the prophecies the priest make all come true, all of the ones for me did, and there are so many stories at the church, they can't ALL be liars!"
If you call someone out on stuff like this, even gently, there's a good chance they'll reject it outright because no one wants to accept that they might have had a disconnect form reality. No one wants to consider that they've gone crazy, even temporarily.
Uber cool ending!!
Consider me Super Ultra Mega Atheist from The Non existent Heaven Above.
Watched all of it
Growing, I had a vague childhood memory that I saw glowing green bubbles float past my bed. And because I loved reading paranormal stories, 'true' ghost stories, and lots of stuff like that, it was fun to believe that those green bubbles were real. But once I gradually became a more rational adult, who rejects superstition because of lack of evidence, it's easy to see those green bubbles pop and fade away. Personal experiences such as this, especially with religion, are hard to give up, because it seems to justify otherwise irrational beliefs, and in the in end, they make people feel good. I'm going to believe that eating ice cream three times a day, every day, is healthy, because it makes me happier to live in a world where ice cream is good for you.
Hahaha your throat gurgled at 0:03. Just a funny observation.
It seems that such 'experiences' have two aspects : the description of what happened, and then the description of the cause or meaning.
Only the first one would necessarily be (typically) beyond refutation. This would be the observation and that's really up to them.
But the second part would be fairly subject to rational scrutiny. This would be the explanation portion -- and we all accept that the explanation has to be reasonable.
If I say that I saw a ghost, then it's refutable since I am making two claims : I saw something, and the thing that I saw is only consistent with a ghost. Of course, you might have seen a figure in the dark room, and when you turned on the light, you saw nothing there. But to claim it as a ghost, demon, or mystical ninja-spirit IS something that is debatable.
actually, the second part is automatically an argument from ignorance fallacy.
@@louiscyfer6944 Agreed.
multiple posters in the envelope? or force the Johnny Cash pick?
I grew up in the same city, my hero 😭😂
And then I learned I was born in the same town as Matt, and went to a high school near where he lived in St Charles... neato.
Christians say, as an atheist, that I've "hardened my heart to god"
I say christians have "harden their hearts to reality."
Well we'll, look up the First Baptist Church Harvester in Missouri and found it was perma-closed.
Thanks for the presentation Matt, one question that I have is what approach should you take in an initial conversation with a religious person (presuming they are somewhat reasonable and open to arguments)?
A lot of the religious preacher types have perhaps 5-10 terrible arguments that are so flawed it would take 15 minutes of explanation to unpack it. Virtually none of them will give you half of that chance to speak.
I know it's unreasonable to expect to convince somebody of anything from a first talk, but is there a particular method that can at least lead to a productive conversation?
my own experience of god is through the catholic church, my earliest experience was when I was about 3 and a half, when some filthy preist rubbed ash into my forehead, and said ashes to ashes, dust to dust, it was the first time I became familiar with death... and it worried me.
For me it was the Slaughter of the Innocents.. All those dead babies.
Any rational articles or books which discusses abt personal experiences
Amen.
If you had the same experience as I had You either still not believe in whatever I believe in or you be very confused.
People can only be an agnostic if they cannot justify whether God exist or doesn't exist based on their own experience. They have no grounds to be so sure that they do not believe God exist and become an atheist. If there is no evidence to prove that person is a murderer that doesn't mean that person didn't commit a murdering. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.
Not so. They can't claim to know there is no God, but they can say they don't believe there is a God. They are essentially saying 'although I can't know, based on what I do know I can say the existence of God is improbable'. As an example, I can't know there is no monster hiding behind me that disappears when I look around. However, based on the fact that nobody can show me a monster, science has not documented any monsters and nothing has ever been shown to be able to disappear, it is perfectly reasonable to say ' I don't believe there is a monster'
Alun Daniel I agree with you that atheist can't make a truth claim. In fact anyone including atheists can say that they don't believe there is a God. Why not? Since they can't see any evidence for God's existence proven by science, it's perfectly right to say it out that they don't believe there is a God. The only thing I disagree with is when some atheists start to make a truth claim and tell people which sounds like "I am right, there is no God. You are wrong and your belief is irrational." Because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Alun Daniel Regarding the "monster" example, yes you can certainly say that you don't believe there is a monster. But the reason why there is no monster is not just because of the absence of evidence that there is a monster, rather, it is the presence of evidence that there is no monster. For example, if everyone knows that the monster comes from the lake district of UK and only come out to attack people in the winter, we can certainly claim that the monster does not exist because we have positive evidence to show that no one in the past has ever seen or any technologies has ever detected its existence, nor have we ever seen any people in the UK being attacked by the monster.
Back to my original analogy, just because there isn't any evidence to prove that a person commit a murdering, that doesn't mean that person didn't commit a murdering, unless there is positive evidence to prove that person did not commit murdering e.g. to prove that he was in somewhere else. That is why by simply showing the absence of evidence is not a sufficient evidence of its absence, unless we have positive and consistent evidence to deny its existence.
abc1111 So, abc111, what do you think would constitute a conclusive case for the non-existence of the God of classical theism? In other words, what is the "positive and consistent" evidence for denying the existence of that god? Btw, don't take this as an argumentative stance - i just want to know your position on the issue.
positive evidence that there is no evidence (for the monster)...?! in order to claim the monster is from a specific place only and only comes out to attack in the winter you'd have to have evidence to back that up and that would be evidence for the existence of the monster.... but there isn't - and therefore there is no reason to believe it exists... absence of evidence of a claim is not evidence of absence , but sufficient reason the reject the claim
Matt has LEGS?!?!
19:05 That can only mean one thing. God is a great Wingman.
Jesus is King.
The claim to be King of the Jews is falsifiable. Even if, Jesus was descendant from the House of David, which is unlikely, after the Babylonians invaded Judea; the House of David centuries before Jesus was secular. The priestly line descended from Zardok.