Scraping Spindle Bearings
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- The second part of scraping the Holbrook T13 Toolroom Lathe spindle bearings. Machining (with the shaper) the upper bearing caps & housings, shimming to enable a repeatable print, and hand scraping the bearing faces to give 80% contact over the desired area. A few minutes footage of the new to me Landrover Defender 110 TD5 at the end of the video.
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Hi Mat an Old Timer in an Electric Motor Repair Shop. Once showed me this trick. He filled the Brg Journals with clean oil then added
just a small pinch
About shims John Deere recommends pushing shims in snug to shaft so you don't lose oil pressure
Enjoyed!
ATB, Robin
Sack the summer shift, lucky they turned up 😂. ISO 5 to 10 oil is blooming thin, guess it was designed for shipyard factory temperatures, ref no doors or windows.
Would spring loading the bearing caps lightly help for scraping in?. Like the oil wedge description, sounds better than hydrodynamic lubrication, makes sense on your radial loading direction.
Thanks for sharing and best regards from the Black Country.
Yeah, you dont actually have to use any die cam if you dont want to. It helps when you are "roughing it in", but I have more success just skipping it entirely and looking for the rub marks. Also good work, and hello from all the scrapers in the USA!
Good to see the ol' shaper war horse out for a stroll. Don't tell Abom but I think you get a better finish than he does. Very cool to see the subs going up for you! What great shots of the country side. Good fun.
Hi Russ, now thats the sort of Abom talk that gets contentious ! It was interesting getting the speed, DOC and tool shape to work over the joint lines between babbitt and cast iron. I could see my face in it when it was sorted :-)
If you want some thin oil I keep Mobil Velocite 6 (gnats piss) Mobil Velocite 3 (runny gnats piss) and Castrol Hyspin E5 (watery gnats piss). Let me know your preference and I will put some in the post.
As a machinist with 45 years in the bag I have rebuilt a few old bushing lathes . I call them a cast iron pig. and no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig it is still a pig
Hey Matt, Great video. I used your name on my last video. I think I will attempt to do some scraping myself. First to get a small straight edge and angle plate in shape and then, if I am feeling brave, some scraping on my little Burke Mill..... Wish me luck!
Joe
Extremely interesting and informative. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.
I do also enjoy the bit of country road driving towards the end of your video, especially the "public footbath" @40:18. The landscape looks very much like the Yorkshire Dales or the Lakes to me. Outstanding!
A trick that an old timer once showed me with pins is if they were a little loose then he would kner it. This would tighten up the pin. From what I could see, that's what it looked like.
do you mean Knurl? I've seen machinists knurl something to increase the diameter a bit.
That dent on alignment pin could mean it was loose so hit with hammer to tighten it up
To late now, but as you were talking about shimming the caps and removable shells, some thing stirred in my memory of my mechanic training (nearly fifty years ago), leaving the shell slightly proud so that it is pinched by the cap. The crush, deforming the shell, helping to compensate. Regards, Matthew.
41:15 that is a big hill!
Hi Brian - There are a few round these parts as you ve seen from earlier videos I like the snow when it comes and hangs around - much easier driving the landrover than hiking - am sure I iwll do both this winter. All the best Mat
Matt, well done. You plunged headlong into the intricacies of mechanics. Great video)))
Its scary to think I generally make it up as go along :-) Thanks for watching and commenting. All the best Mat
Great video as are all the ones i have watched I learn and get some other ways to do things some better some i will need to try
Mat, this past spring I scraped in the cutter head, bottom fed, bearings on my woodworking jointer. Admittedly we worked on machines of 2 different load demands and speeds, my machine runs at a constant 4k rpm. With that said, what I'm suggesting is the means by which I tested the clearances. After final assembly I positioned a thermocouple on each bearing cap and ran the machine for fifteen minutes, unloaded. At the end of the run the bearing temps had risen by 40*F over ambient. In the end you will have to decide how much rise you are comfortable with, however, I think it is a good test for overly tight bearings. Just my $0.02.
If I was anyway near smart enough to wire up a pair of thermocouples and a display to show the temp of each bearing thats the way to go ! I'm not so will likely use my heat gun which is fine for comparative readings with hands out the way. The temp rise will affect the fits and thats what I have to keep an eye on.
Great video Mat, enjoyed that thanks.
Al.
my dad told me that after they had scraped in new bearings on a lathe they would run it for hours unloaded with molykote A as a lubricant.
the MoS2 particles would embed in the bearing material and reduce drag, and thereby heating up and wear of the bearings immensely.
the stuff is not cheap but in comparison to the work you have done it actually is quite cheap.....
Thats interesting, similar to what I had read on a forum a few months back, I dont recall the 'lubricant' they ran shaft journals in with, but similar purpose. Cheers for stopping by, Mat
nicely done. Your perseverance is incredible.
Nice progress Matt, great job. The gear mesh looks like it may have improved even?
I think from memory, the input shaft to the spindle sits below the spindle, so you may well be correct in that its brought the gears more into mesh. The fact the wear in the front bearing had taken the meshing askew has been corrected in the least. So now, either its out both sides of the tooth or right :-) Thanks for stopping by and commenting. All the best Mat
Interested, thank for sharing
Thanks for watching!
nicely, cant wait for next vid!!!Thanks!
Very interesting! That lathe has certainly come a long way thus far. Been following for a while and have watched most of your series (although not in exact order lol).
These videos in particular caught my eye, my little Atlas has babbit spindle bearings and think it could probably use a re-shimming after 85 years or so lol. Thanks for sharing, really enjoying the rebuild! Cheers 👍😁👍
Thanks 👍
Another great video. Regarding the dowel pins, they looked like tapered dowel pins in the video unless it was an optical illusion. Taper dowel pins would make sense in the application as they result in essentially zero clearance and hold the items in exact alignment. Every taper dowel pin I have ever seen has those same machining marks. It looks like a kid in a high school shop class made them. However, every one I have encountered always worked as it was supposed to. Is your shaper an Elliot? I have an Elliot 14 MR and it looks very similar to yours. Keep the videos coming. Thanks, Ken
Hi Ken, The dowel pins are parallel pins for sure, just look like they were 'rough turned', diameter is spot on maybe .0005" over and they 'spread to fit snug with a tap in ? Its an elliot 14S Shaper made around 1954 when Elliot took over Alba. I fully rebuilt it a couple of years back - its how I learned how to scrape ... the hard long way around ! Lots of advice from chaps on here and the Practical Machinest Forum. I got quite a lot of stick from 'experts' that didn't like that I sometimes took my own approach to resolve issues and not follow their defined procedures. All in all the results speak for themselves, it holds 0.0002" over the working envelope with a little care setting up the part. The vice I think is from an 18" machine. Its a little big, but does the job well - that had to be rebuilt from scratch as the nut was toast and it was worn on the slides. Take a look over my earlier videos - there's hours of background entertainment to be had :-) The playlists, help ensure you can watch in sequence. All the best Mat
When I worked in the construction and installation of Flax Drawing frames all the Drawing rollers ran on white metal bushes (5 - 16 in line depending on size of machine) , we done the Blueing and Scraping as usual and when we finally fitted the long Drawing Roller we would go along each journal and give them a couple of sound "Dunts" with a hardwood Block and a 2 1/2 Lb hammer to "flatten out" any tiny high spots. Crude but it worked . We also applied "Castor Oil" for the initial "Running in" period where the roller was under high pressure from the "Pressing Rollers" after which it was light machine oil applied to a flannel which permanently sat on top of the journals.
Ive read similar about the initial 'thump' to settle any high points and create a small oil pocket for rollers to sit on oil. Thanks for watching and commenting. Mat
Looking good mate . Great progress , Cheers .
Thanks for stopping by ;-)
Now: I have never scraped a lathe headstock, but I have done a few big-ends of about the same size as your headstock, on an old fire engine. And we generally have just scraped to a good print and then run the engine. I know that there should be exactly the right clearance once the shape is correct. But in practice it seems to work OK.
I share your view Andy, there's 'correct' and what works - I doubt after several hundred hours running correct is any better than nearly... but you never know :-)
Good work mat. I have used aluminium foil for shims
I had 2.5 ltr loss of coolent (well thats what it took to top it back up) not sure when it had been last checked by the previous owner so could be a long time. Found evidence of a leak below the top hose, dripping onto the main block and exhaust manifold - the flexible pipe had been changed quite recently so I had assumed it was sorted. I cleaned it up and then spotted it was still dripping - sorted that so am keeping an eye on it. Got to start looking at the door bottoms next so the welding skills will be developing months :-)
I don't know anything about this, but wouldn't you want to cut in some channels/grooves for oil to flow into.
Something that comes to mind is when the bearing temp goes up, does the ID get smaller or larger? I know when the spindle heats up it grows.
So heat the spindle in an oven and make a chart showing the growth per degrees of increased temp.
Also mock up a bearing roughly the same size, which could be a home made ring with poured Babbitt and do the oven procedure with it.
Then you would know what will happen with the spindle assembly.
Too scientific, just wing it and see what happens.
Good show and good luck, JIM
I have read some conflicting messages about oil grooves in these types of bearing. The main issue is that the grooves can suck the oil away from the shaft and create problems by breaking the wedge that is sought. Where are obviously lack of oil will give the same result. The consensus appears to be a smooth shell face appropriate clearance for the correct oil viscosity, shaft rpm & diameter. Note that the oil reaches the faces via an almost full width felt wick at the bottom - so there should be good coverage and the 'excess will flow out of the ends. I am keen to see how it works in practice ! All the best & thanks for stopping by. Mat
Looking like you are most of the way done on the headstock journals. Thanks for making the video Matthew.
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Excellent work never scraped a babbit bearing before replaced a lot of tapered roller bearings which is a lot easier was that a Cincinnati shaper you were using sure got a good surface finish with it I can tell you are very good at doing a job right I am a retired machinist and have rebuilt a lot of machines also own a old sheldon lath with Babbitt bearings in it
Hi Ray, thanks for watching and commenting. The shaper is an English made unit by Elliot. Based on an earlier design by Alba from the early part of the 1900’s. I haven’t seen a Cincinnati shaper over here in the U.K. comparable shapers by invicta or Churchill. There are plenty of others from the early 1900’s, Butler are a favourite of mine.
Hi Mat, A good old handmade thoumbs up for the fine work you do, wonderfull scenery, my former boss worked for a while at Colchester Lathes as a part of his ecucation, and later when he was newly wed he wanted to show his vife the English Country side, what he had not taken in account was the low seating position in a Mini, so they had a 2 weeks holiday looking at wayside stone brick walls.
that sounds about right and the main reason I drive a landrover.
Epic effort as usual mate :), looking great. For what its worth if been going through a S&B model L headstock, it runs a split bronze front bearing that seats on a taper, the rear bearings are angular contact ball races. Ive a touch over .002" axial play cold on the front bearing and it parts off fine. Im thinking starting with some clearance and remove a shim if needed might be the better route. Would be a royal pita if that bearing picked up from being to tight after all the hard work.
Cheers
D
Hi mate, yeh I think start with .002" and then remove one if it needs it. Am going to take a look at some 'metric' shim to see if I can work out smaller increments than .001" might make things a bit easier. Best of luck with the production runs :-) Cheers Mat
Amazing! I’ve never seen this done before and now that I have I have so much respect for your patience and attention to detail. I just subscribed and I hope I see more of this
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow, you've got some serious patience! You've also got a very good analytical mind for problem solving!
Very good work!
Thanks for sharing!
Thank you. The patience comes from realising that there’s only me to sort it out and I can stop and walk away anytime. I do take a break when frustration kicks in. Thanks for watching, all the best Mat
@@lookcreations :)
Coming along nicely Mat. My guess is with that spindle rotating better in the forwards direction than reverse ............must have been counter clockwise babbit used instead of clock wise. :-)
You know I think you are right. I’m so glad I didn’t invert the shells as that could have messed the direction up 😃👍
@@lookcreations LOL, yeah then the lathe would only work properly in Australia. :-)
I've seen a lot about scraping flats but ......well can you tell me more about how you made your scraper for the spindle bearings
There are two types I show. One is a commercial made bearing scraper by Moore n Wright U.K.. EBay £10. High carbon Steel. The other was a car boot sale. For £5. It’s been made from an old steel file, so high carbon steel again. As the Babbitt is very soft you can retain a sharp edge for a long time. I would think a local blacksmith or knife maker would be happy to make you a scraper . I will try and show some more details on my next video. Thanks for watching
@@lookcreations You can just buy them new: www.zoro.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/scrapers-picks-and-hooks/03020103
Very nice! Interesting to see the process. I'm wondering though, if the rear bearing had less wear, and then you dropped the front bearing even further, won't you have to drop the rear bearing an equal amount to maintain the parallellism of the spindle to the bed?
The bearing / spindle to bed alignment is checked repeatedly throughout the scraping of the lower half of each bearing, much of this is covered in the first part of the two videos. The top halves of the bearings simple repeat the alignment to the spindle once it’s established on the lower halves.
@@lookcreations Thanks! Joined this series a few episodes in.
The direction-sensitive behaviour has me proper puzzled.
Im wondering if its down to the reliefs around the bearing part lines and the lower wick cavity. Might just be pulling the lubricant off early ?
Seems to me that you have an easier time twisting towards you than away. My guess it's an ergonomic question not a mechanical one.
Quite possible 👍
almost looks like cavitation 30:14
A couple of folk on Instagram said the same. It could be I guesss
First view & like yay! Mike
Well it was 5:50am over here in the U.K. when I hit publish, you must be very keen ! 👍 glad you enjoyed it. Mat
Hi Matt I'm slightly confused and really uneducated about the spindle and gearbox your working on. I commented un the last video and im just curious about the bearing clearance to the shaft. I have worked on semt pielstick diesel engines large twin turbo v10 roughly the size of a three story house. Babbit bearings for stern tube seals on large ships. With the tolerances your trying to hold with a machine spindle wouldn't you want a 0 clearance fit? Almost unable to turn the shaft. And do a "wipe in" where the shaft itself removes the material to create a perfect oil seal. Because essentially with a babbit bearing the shaft is supposed to ride on a bed of oil not on the bearing. When we worked on these diesels the main bearing for the crank was babbit but it was an interference fit and the crank actually wiped material away to create a perfect seal. Excuse me not seal but surface rather. The same goes for stern tube bearings on shaft seals for ships. They purposely scallop the bearings to allow for the material the shaft wipes away to exit out from between the bearing and shaft. I would like your input. Also its a machine spindle for machining correct? .0005" is better than .003" runout
These are all useful bits of information, there seams to be a good number of approaches to 'whats the best 'fit up' , as for this lathe spindle, from what I have gathered from other owners of the same or similar Holbrook design, the bearings were shimmed such that they could be 'tightened up' the service hands that traveled around the country doing this work I suspect had guidance on what clearance was required for each lathe ex works. Ive not been able to establish these details. As such its very much a 'suck it and see'. As such, I have concluded to make the contact areas as good as if it were 'bored', so minimum scrape depth and as near to 80% contact in the contact zone then adjust shim thickness to give a usable clearance with the oil viscosity and rpm range. I suspect the running in period, will be undertaken with the headstock open so I can use a thermometer to watch the bearing temp changes. I may have to rig up a 'spray cover' as I suspect the the gear oil will spray at the higher speeds. Going to interesting and a little nerve racking inspecting the bearings after each run up. MY feeling is the clearance will be nearer to 0.001" than 0.003", if its sub 0.001" then its going to make shimming it fun.
@@lookcreations so basically you want a .003"-.005" shim with as close to .000" clearance as possible without overheating and melting the bearings. But you also want to leave yourself the ability to adjust as the bearings wear away over time. And blue fit is to replicate as close to what a boring procedure would do. I noticed both babbitt bearings are dove tailed is there an anti rotation key or pin that keeps the lower and upper bearing from spinning within the housing? Generally with the bearing halves I worked with they had a tang or pin that would keep the bearing from spinning within the housing. Also I would think that as long as you have oil feeding the bearings. You would want as close to a 0 tolerance as possible. Thanks a bunch for your insight, I really enjoy your videos and I love the off road vehicle. those roads just look amazing! Its so beautiful over there.
@@machinist1337 I think when Im done, if I can have a couple of .001" shims between the caps, and a plastigauge measured gap of
@@lookcreations I would for sure shoot for .0005" or less clearance. The lathe won't part off nice if you can't have it run tight.
@@bcbloc02 Have to say Brian, its a bit of an unknown - to my mind it needs the minimum clearance, while ensuring oil gets in. Too much of a gap to my mind will give all manner of issues when working to fine tolerances and as you say parting off etc. I suspect that I will have to re-visit the set up after a few hours of running in and test cuts. mat