Option 3. Adapt the production axle, without welding, and make a custom hybrid key to allow the use of the original, unique 10X bearing housings and wheel hubs. You have two competing goals, 1.) curation and 2.) preservation/restoration of X231. The curation goal says keeps everything original no matter what, but the preservation/restoration goal says return X231 to a running tractor. Keeping the original worn or damaged X231 parts leaves them available for the examination of future MM historians, and should fully satisfy the curation goal, and returning X231 to a running demonstrator condition will protect your investment, increase its exposure to MM fans, and maybe encourage someone else who has a rare or unusual tractor restore it too. I think you're striking an excellent balance between curation and preservation/restoration. Good work, and thanks for these great videos!
Sat down with a couple cups of coffee and watched back-to-back the playlist for this prototype MM. Wonderful!! My Dad worked for NC Marine on Lake Union in Seattle for several years before the transferred the operation to Tukwila and named it NC Power. He has worked Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and Caterpillars on fishing and crabing boats, often traveling to Alaska during the 'catch' season repairing boats. Your series on this and the D2 are amazing and incredible to watch. Myself, I work in the aviation business at the Boeing Everett Plant, but my wife has always thought it would be fun to restore a tractor. Maybe not one like th 10X MM, but not so old tractor to putt around the farm on. As for the axle: Production axles, but milled down for the 10X outer bearing/axle caps.
Having a lathe and mill in my shop, I was way ahead of your suggestion when I saw the bearing position difference. I immediately thought "cut the axle back and move the bearing" so I vote for solution #3. Externally you'll see X231, internally you've done the very best you can do. Love the channel, looking for to each new post!
My vote goes to option #3. Stay as close to original as possible. This will tell the trailer queens story. This way also shows how the factory/R&D tested their design to point of failure. Thank you for including us in your build.
My 2 cents, option 3. That being said had i stumbled across this machine it would have ended up as yard art. The repairs you have done so far are way beyond anything i can do, you sir are a master and i am but a shadetree hack. Love to watch what you are doing, thank you for sharing this with us.
I know this video is 4 yrs old but I just watched it and you’re getting back to the project, I say move the bearing surface back on the production axles and make a custom key for them.
It sounds like option 3 is the best. Thanks for making these videos because I learn a great deal. I appreciate the knowledge you have to meet the challenges you are dealing with!!
Toby, as an alternative to your three options you mentioned have you considered cutting .003 shim stock to place at the base of all of the splines in order to allow the bull gear to tighten up on the axle shaft earlier allowing you to tighten it with the nut. This likely wouldn't survive if the tractor had to pull a plow or work for a living but should be adequate for a parade tractor. It would allow you to use the Prototype axles bearings and wheel hubs with the production bull gear. If you decide to proceed along any of the three paths you proposed I agree with you that pushing the bearing seat back on the lathe on your production axles is the best option. Looking forward to the next installment. If you elect to machine the production axles please include the Machining process in your video.
I think if it was mine, it would go into the lathe. All is documented, I'm with you on keeping things original but sometimes this is not always possible. If we all had stacks of cash, time and space, keeping things original would be the best option. Your doing a fine job of keeping it as original as possible. Keep smiling.
Given the circumstances and how you feel about the tractor, I say option three is the best. Machining the production axles seems like a pretty good idea and it’s something I want to see. Just keep going, you’ve done an excellent job on X231 so far and I can’t wait to see it finished.
I like option 3.Keeps the machine looking original on the outside. The original components will stay with the tractor, can be repaired at any time in the future.
I think your solution is the best for your situation. I am intrigued by round key design. I have never seen that before and I was born in the late 50s.
As always you are setting yourself commendably high standards, and in part that is the source of your dilemma. Having said that, I feel, like others, that you have in fact answered your own question by thinking the problem out on camera - modifying the good axles so as to preserve the outward appearance is a realistic solution. I do wonder with any experimental vehicle just how often engineers took the pragmatic route with what was available to them. Keep up the excellent work!
If it was me, I would turn the production shaft on the lathe as you suggested, and then send the shafts to a machine shop to have them mill the keyway to a half round to match the prototype. That would be a relatively inexpensive machining job (simple set-up in a mill with a bull-nose end mill) compared to welding and re-milling the splines. But of course, at the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is yours! I am really enjoying this series by the way.
actually, I now realize that that would leave a step in the keyway unless you first lay a weld bead in the corners of the square keyway (and that risks warping the shaft a bit) ...
I too am on the same page as you as far as turning the production axles down. However,.....Being the John Deere guy that I am ( no need to roll you eyes) I have run into a somewhat similar issue when the clutch pulley has been run loose and wears the splined end of the crankshaft. I know of guys that have welded the splines and ground them back out to fit the driver which works well but takes alot of time. I have had good luck using JB weld to build up the splines and file them down to fit the driver. The nice thing about JB weld is it's gray in color which makes it easy to find your high spots while fitting the driver. After I get a nice tight fit John Deere sells a product similar to loctite, I'll have to check later on what John Deere actually calls it but let me tell you its good stuff, once it sets up good luck getting your parts back off. I think it'd be worth a shot seeing as the RPM's of your axles will be much slower than the 975ish RPM's of that crankshaft at full throttle.
I have had splines welded and machined in my 335 final drive, it was not thousands of dollars. I would suggest getting estimates from several machine shops. I found there is a huge difference in job estimates. Also give them the bull gears that go to those splines. They will then be able to make sure they fit correctly while machining. If the estimates are truly out of reason, then you have plan B with the production axles.
Using the production axles would be quick & easier. However if you want to have the X axles repaired, you might contact either Keith Fenner (Turnwright machine) or Adam Booth (Abom79) both are excellent machinists & they both have youtube channels. They perhaps would be willing to do the work at a reduced rate or (as a freebie ?) for a project on either one's channel ? It wouldn't hurt to inquire. Of course you'd probably have to ship the axles both ways to them & wait for which ever one does them to get them done. Fenner is in Cape Cod & Booth is in Pensacola, FL. Enjoy your videos, updates & the quality work you do. Always look forward to the videos be it the MM or the Cat. Best of luck with this & Happy Holidays !
Option #4 Industrial chrome plate the tapered splines on the 10X axle and then regrind in the tapered splines with a tool and cutter grinder. Apply wax to threads to keep the chrome plating off the threads. With the option above you could install all of your unaltered 10A parts and then at a later date install your factory 10X parts. Unlike everything else, you wouldn't have to split the tractor. 3,000,000 views, Congratulations. Mike
Option 3 would be the best choice in my mind due to getting all the benefits of a good used part that does not need to be welded up. If you absolutely wanted to use the old wheel hubs then go for it but i would also consider using the production wheel hubs after all it would make it all pretty easy.
I thought of option 3 before you outlined your ideas to re-machine the bearing locations to use the 10x housings. Go for it, you aren't going to do any harm, except possibly to future restoration of a production machine. Above all, you are being 100% honest about what you are planning.
Adam Booth at Abom79 did something similar enough so that custom fitting between two parts was done. At the very least,find a way to talk it over with him. Best darn machinist I know of. Sprayweld and cut back ? Industrial plating and remachine ? One earlier contributor hit a plan B that sounds workable. Do your plan 3,install but find a way to rebuild the 10X parts while carrying on with the tractor rebuild. That takes the time factor out of the loop. Then install the 10X parts at your later convenience. More work,some more expense,but it keeps your gumption up knowing the desired bits will not be abandoned. Think that one over carefully. You can measure to your heart's content,bring all machined surfaces back to spec, including those bolt-on bearing extension cups. Taking the tractor apart enough to swap out the original axle bits is not that major an operation. Very good idea the gent came up with.
as always your right on the money about pushing back the bearing size on the axles is the best option. making the step key will be fun. keep up the good work buddy.
I like the idea of machining the production axles back so that you can use the prototype covers. Its likely the most cost effective solution in order to keep as many of the prototype parts and look as possible. If your budget for the project is unlimited then it may be worth having the prototype axle splines welded and re-machined, but as you said no guarantee that it will work out. At least with the production axles you know that the gears and splines work.
We both know my opinion doesn't count for jack, but I'll share it with you anyway. Considering that you don't have unlimited finances and that you want the tractor to actually move (i.e., not just sit in a museum) rebuilding the X pieces or reinstalling the X pieces as they are isn't reasonable. Personally, I wouldn't begrudge you going with a straight production setup, and I don't think anyone else would, either. But considering how you feel about the machine -- and yours is the only opinion that really matters -- the solution you're leaning toward (i.e., machining back the bearing surface 2") sounds like a more-than-reasonable compromise between originality and practicality. Whatever you decide, I'll be looking forward to watching you implement it.
I agree with your 3rd option. And I think it’s the way to go for x231. And would give you what you need for the axles. And i think it’s a win, win for you. With the least amount of machining or cost. Keep it up. It looks great
I suspect the prototype parts were loose from the start which is why one axle was previously changed. Option 3 is probably the best and it was my thought when you first showed the axles. We had a large forklift break an axle that was no longer available. We sent it to Strange Engineering and they built a pair for a fairly reasonable price.
You know what I think. You're making this thing to WORK/run as good as it can be made to do so. If the old parts are too worn, you didn't do it. Someone else got the goodie out of it. Just go with your ideas and be done with it. You're NOT going to cobble it up, it's going to be as right as it can be with old parts. And so the sorting begins. Have at it and stay warm. Hi 2 Pop!
Option 3 is what I started thinking when you did the first side-by-side on the bench. Anything else like welding production spline end of the shaft to the X231 shafts would be asking for trouble.
If you have a good lathe and know how to use it, Id turn down the production axels to fit the experimental bearing carriers. Those hard axels might be hard to cut though. On the outside the machine would be mostly the original experimental tractor and only the internal guts would not be original. the hard part is finding the balance between keeping it original and having it be mechanically sound. Either way this tractor is going to be a beautiful work of art again. Thank you for keeping this old iron alive when most people just throw it away.
You are there, and have lots of experience making that old stuff work. If you think the third option is best, you are best suited to make the decision. Good luck!!
The third option is what I would go with,..BUT this is not my restoration,.I'm just a 'sidewalk superintendent' here,.you are the only person who needs to be satisfied in this one. The worn original parts pretty much dictates what has to be done. With all this documentation on video, as well as what you have written in your 're-build book' will explain the path that you need to take to complete this the best way that you know how. Keep going,..I, ( and I suspect a great number of the other subscribers to this channel ) will follow along.
Just had another idea. Fill the square grooves in the production axles, epoxy or metal like filler compounds. Turn the axle 180 degrees cut round grooves. Keep the axles painted to not show off the rebuilders fix.
Use the production axles, production bearing housings and production hubs, you're guaranteed they all fit, would take no additional $ or additional time. At the end of the day the only thing anyone will see is the square keyway and a taller bearing housing. Too much risk with cobbling the other parts together. Its going to be a parade tractor, but you still need to go on and off trailer ramps. Just my 2 cents.
I just recently went down the rabbit hole on this series, so I'm answering a question you most likely have already answered. Option one (production axles , bull gears, wheel hubs, and bearing housings) would be the cheapest, safest, and most effective option. With the machining equipment and skills you have, IMO, option 3 would be the best course of action. You can still use the production axles but keep the unique wheel hubs and bearing housings, thus keeping a couple more prototype pieces that are unique to this tractor.
Hi I think your third-option is the one to go for the expense of building up the splines and having no guarantee that it would work seems like a nonstarter to machine the shaft down so the out side dimensions stay the same and then you should be able to put all the out side components on with out to much of a struggle. Love your videos feel your pain
If I was in that position I most likely go with the third choose as long it measured up with the second axle as being the same and no bad after effects can sneak in there, if there was a protrusion of the bull gear I would make a shin pack to take up that distance, I think all this would work as the machine is not going into heavy work
I like the idea of using the production parts. If you ever sell the tractor you should throw in all the x parts in a bin to go with the tractor, imo that would be a great buy for a running 10x with all original parts there and borrowed parts making it run.
I agree with option 3. Not a better option except finding another prototype to pull parts from. Which is highly unlikely to find im sure. Go for internal parts no one will see but external part everyone can look at. Make it so
Turn back the production axles and do a custom key. You have the tools and it’s free other than time and you know it will fit and work the way you want it to.
Squatch mate you look really pissed off that you are losing yet more original parts but look at it this way if it was not for you restoring this tractor it would have been on the scrap heap years ago, you are saving her for the prosperity of others to see that in itself is such a great thing to be doing, you should be very proud of yourself and not such a critic on your wonderful achievements, I’m fully aware of the credibility of having her as original as possible but you can only do what you can. As for which way to go with the Tractor, well in my opinion if I was in your shoes I would go for option three, it make the most sense in my opinion financially and in authenticity!! Forget The critics who are armchair warriors, forget the criticism that undermines your confidence, just keep doing what you are, another great video and as always such an interesting subject from such an interesting man. All the best and happy Christmas 🎄
Option 3!!!!! I would be like you and want as much as the original as possible. Yet you still have to be cost conscious as well. So I think you would be making the best choice for you and the tractor and oh your TH-cam family!!!!
your goal is a close to original parade queen. turn a set of production axles back and move on with your project. you can do it in house, the bearing supports will look proper to the X platform but with a mixed up key way that most will not know. I won"t tell.
My input is an option 3.1. You must use the prototype pieces that are customer facing (that which people will see). That requirement drives you into modifying the production axles. As you mentioned, you can do that yourself. But, as mentioned below, modify the production axles to use a round keyway. There are several ways in which that could be done. Unfortunately, you may need a machine shop for that. IMO, the custom key is no good. At the tractor show, a true collector will see that.
I've seen a few fordsons where the bull gear is not 100% tight on the axle splines after 50 years plus of abuse. the replacement axle is whats easiest, quickest and cheapest now, that the average guy won't know if you used the hubs to, as they have the part no on anyway. if you wanted to keep the 10x axles/hubs you know the proper right way that's only time and money. If those axles were mine and no replacement was available, and it was a trailer queen, I'd probably build the badly worn side of the splines back up carefully with weld, then take a grinding disc, to get them near right, then fine tune "carefully" with a small cutting disc on a dremel tool with a flex shaft so i could "fine sculpt" the last bit for a fairly decent fit. I've done it on a few different shafts/ key ways and splines over the years. Is it really right no, but it's got the machine working again until the rest of it wore out, without spending 1000's of dollars. Or a week or more waiting for a machine shop, when the guy needed it yesterday or the day before L.O.L. I don't know what mills and tools you have maybe you could weld and cut it yourself somehow is my edited after thought ? Thanks for the update, Take care
Modify the production shaft, and make a custom key. Maintains most or the exterior appearance. Modifying the case is a no go IMHO. Make sure the shaft can't walk inboard allowing the bull gear to grab any of those ring gear bolts. Going that route also keeps options open. If you happen to botch the production shaft you can get replacements. If you feel froggy you can certainly get a machine shop to repair the prototype shafts, however keeping the cash in your pocket today means you it will be there tomorrow should you need spend your way out of a tight spot.
go for option 3, or get Abom79 to make a new set of axles for you. do not weld up the worn axels, will turn to sh*t and cost a lot more! Best to use the 10x hubs and bearing housings. Keep up the good work, very interesting, even tho I am a IHC man. Seeya.
Option 3 sounds like your best bet. I would also keep the original parts with the ones you've already replaced due to damage. That way in the future, those parts will be with the tractor still. After all she will be a Diva tractor.
Option 3 is the most reasonable approach and exactly what I was thinking as soon as you showed the difference in bearing locations. Would that make you Squatchwright Machine Works?
I personally would call Minneapolis moline and ask if its still under warranty. Seriously i would go along with your idea being its the simpler, safer, and less expensive route. Added benefit of keeping more original parts and we get to see more great videos from you
Suggestion --Could you make a collet out of the old bull gear to keep them running in line , Weld the splines then micro grind them with a thin Zipcut wheel to tighten it up be cheaper being it won`t see the field again then you can still use the round Key shafts
In the end it’s your tractor do as you wish. That said if it were mine I do option 3, if at a later date you want to sell it or a money tree grows in your back yard you could “fix” the 10x axles. Just mine 2 cents worth.
I have an idea but it will take some work. Machine the extra splines off the in board end of the axle so you can tighten the nut, maybe deepen the splines to get the proper contact. Move out the inner axle bearing race out the same amount as you machined off the splines. Then make a spacer to move the outer bearing to the correct position, I would use a nice press fit on the spacer maybe make the wall a little heavier than the shaft OD. You might have to fill in some off the round key way to get the seal a full running surface. If you try this and can't make it work you can always go back to production axles.
I don't see replacing the bull gears as something to worry about since they are concealed, but modifying the production axle would be my choice since you can use the unique 10X bearing housings which ARE visible. It would also be a good choice economically since you can do it yourself and show us some lathe footage.
Option 4 , machine new shafts total to match original proto type as that would be faster than weld up / heat treat/ re cut, IMO ,,, But I feel option 3 is the best / cost effective / speed / self control of job. IMO
Looks like the best solution is to run the modified shafts production bull gears and original wheel hubs. No one can turn the hands of time back and prevent the damage. Repair it like your going to put it back to work. Make it a serviceable tractor. Bandaids, Bubblegum & bailing wire are for temporary fixes. Fix it right the first time, Is the way to go. Original may have to suffer, there is a big difference between restore and repair.
Good option but something to think about, what about going with production axles and bull gears keeping the X231. Take the prototype axles to me machined and even though more work, install at a later date? Would keep you rolling and also get you back to prototype in the future when funds and time are more on your side? That would be how I would do it as yo have all the original pieces to make sure the fit and end result of the final X231 is proper without feeling rushed.
I feel ya pain, ive had the same problems in the uk with old cars . plan3 got my vote , but id like to keep the x31 parts out to show people what the difference are very heavy display case ..lol.. get her all good and running ...don't think ya going sell her sooo get her chugging along :)
Modifying those will work however contact a utuber named abomb. He don’t miss on specs. If not a subscriber already check him out. I’d bet he could spray weld your gears and recut them as well. The repaired axels can be installed later or just kept as OEM parts for that machine.
You could have the splined axle ends lightly spray welded in a lathe, far cheaper than your original welding option. With a little practice you could even do it yourself.
What would they have done if this had failed back at the beginning? Fabricate new prototype parts or modify existing parts? Thinking your choice will be the same as theirs and almost no wrong answer as this is a prototype. Fun project and I enjoy following.
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Modifying the production axles is the best, or perhaps least-worst option IMO.
Option 3. Adapt the production axle, without welding, and make a custom hybrid key to allow the use of the original, unique 10X bearing housings and wheel hubs. You have two competing goals, 1.) curation and 2.) preservation/restoration of X231. The curation goal says keeps everything original no matter what, but the preservation/restoration goal says return X231 to a running tractor. Keeping the original worn or damaged X231 parts leaves them available for the examination of future MM historians, and should fully satisfy the curation goal, and returning X231 to a running demonstrator condition will protect your investment, increase its exposure to MM fans, and maybe encourage someone else who has a rare or unusual tractor restore it too. I think you're striking an excellent balance between curation and preservation/restoration. Good work, and thanks for these great videos!
Very well said. Best of both worlds
Sat down with a couple cups of coffee and watched back-to-back the playlist for this prototype MM. Wonderful!! My Dad worked for NC Marine on Lake Union in Seattle for several years before the transferred the operation to Tukwila and named it NC Power. He has worked Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and Caterpillars on fishing and crabing boats, often traveling to Alaska during the 'catch' season repairing boats.
Your series on this and the D2 are amazing and incredible to watch.
Myself, I work in the aviation business at the Boeing Everett Plant, but my wife has always thought it would be fun to restore a tractor. Maybe not one like th 10X MM, but not so old tractor to putt around the farm on.
As for the axle: Production axles, but milled down for the 10X outer bearing/axle caps.
I like your idea, you can always have the 10X axles repaired at a later date if you wanted.
Having a lathe and mill in my shop, I was way ahead of your suggestion when I saw the bearing position difference. I immediately thought "cut the axle back and move the bearing" so I vote for solution #3. Externally you'll see X231, internally you've done the very best you can do. Love the channel, looking for to each new post!
My vote goes to option #3. Stay as close to original as possible. This will tell the trailer queens story. This way also shows how the factory/R&D tested their design to point of failure. Thank you for including us in your build.
My 2 cents, option 3. That being said had i stumbled across this machine it would have ended up as yard art. The repairs you have done so far are way beyond anything i can do, you sir are a master and i am but a shadetree hack. Love to watch what you are doing, thank you for sharing this with us.
Option 3 seems to be the best choice just as you have described. You obviously have the knowledge and skills to accomplish the task.
I know this video is 4 yrs old but I just watched it and you’re getting back to the project, I say move the bearing surface back on the production axles and make a custom key for them.
It sounds like option 3 is the best. Thanks for making these videos because I learn a great deal. I appreciate the knowledge you have to meet the challenges you are dealing with!!
Toby, as an alternative to your three options you mentioned have you considered cutting .003 shim stock to place at the base of all of the splines in order to allow the bull gear to tighten up on the axle shaft earlier allowing you to tighten it with the nut. This likely wouldn't survive if the tractor had to pull a plow or work for a living but should be adequate for a parade tractor. It would allow you to use the Prototype axles bearings and wheel hubs with the production bull gear. If you decide to proceed along any of the three paths you proposed I agree with you that pushing the bearing seat back on the lathe on your production axles is the best option. Looking forward to the next installment. If you elect to machine the production axles please include the Machining process in your video.
I think if it was mine, it would go into the lathe. All is documented, I'm with you on keeping things original but sometimes this is not always possible.
If we all had stacks of cash, time and space, keeping things original would be the best option. Your doing a fine job of keeping it as original as possible.
Keep smiling.
Given the circumstances and how you feel about the tractor, I say option three is the best. Machining the production axles seems like a pretty good idea and it’s something I want to see. Just keep going, you’ve done an excellent job on X231 so far and I can’t wait to see it finished.
I like option 3.Keeps the machine looking original on the outside. The original components will stay with the tractor, can be repaired at any time in the future.
Option 3. No alliteration to original parts and most important, you control the quality of the work.
x2
I think your solution is the best for your situation. I am intrigued by round key design. I have never seen that before and I was born in the late 50s.
I like option 3 myself. Was thinking along the same lines as you were explaining the differences
As always you are setting yourself commendably high standards, and in part that is the source of your dilemma. Having said that, I feel, like others, that you have in fact answered your own question by thinking the problem out on camera - modifying the good axles so as to preserve the outward appearance is a realistic solution. I do wonder with any experimental vehicle just how often engineers took the pragmatic route with what was available to them.
Keep up the excellent work!
If it was me, I would turn the production shaft on the lathe as you suggested, and then send the shafts to a machine shop to have them mill the keyway to a half round to match the prototype. That would be a relatively inexpensive machining job (simple set-up in a mill with a bull-nose end mill) compared to welding and re-milling the splines. But of course, at the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is yours! I am really enjoying this series by the way.
actually, I now realize that that would leave a step in the keyway unless you first lay a weld bead in the corners of the square keyway (and that risks warping the shaft a bit) ...
I agree with you... Modify the production axles and use the X231 bearing housings. I think that is the lessor of all evils.
I too am on the same page as you as far as turning the production axles down. However,.....Being the John Deere guy that I am ( no need to roll you eyes) I have run into a somewhat similar issue when the clutch pulley has been run loose and wears the splined end of the crankshaft. I know of guys that have welded the splines and ground them back out to fit the driver which works well but takes alot of time. I have had good luck using JB weld to build up the splines and file them down to fit the driver. The nice thing about JB weld is it's gray in color which makes it easy to find your high spots while fitting the driver. After I get a nice tight fit John Deere sells a product similar to loctite, I'll have to check later on what John Deere actually calls it but let me tell you its good stuff, once it sets up good luck getting your parts back off. I think it'd be worth a shot seeing as the RPM's of your axles will be much slower than the 975ish RPM's of that crankshaft at full throttle.
I have had splines welded and machined in my 335 final drive, it was not thousands of dollars. I would suggest getting estimates from several machine shops. I found there is a huge difference in job estimates. Also give them the bull gears that go to those splines. They will then be able to make sure they fit correctly while machining. If the estimates are truly out of reason, then you have plan B with the production axles.
I would definitely go with option 3. This build is making me want to tear apart my 8n but I'm afraid of what I'll find
I have to do some work on the n anyway I just partially lost my hydraulics and can't use the 3 point
Using the production axles would be quick & easier. However if you want to have the X axles repaired, you might contact either Keith Fenner (Turnwright machine) or Adam Booth (Abom79) both are excellent machinists & they both have youtube channels. They perhaps would be willing to do the work at a reduced rate or (as a freebie ?) for a project on either one's channel ? It wouldn't hurt to inquire. Of course you'd probably have to ship the axles both ways to them & wait for which ever one does them to get them done. Fenner is in Cape Cod & Booth is in Pensacola, FL.
Enjoy your videos, updates & the quality work you do. Always look forward to the videos be it the MM or the Cat. Best of luck with this & Happy Holidays !
Your solution is brilliant! By all means modify and use the production axles and the prototype bearing housings.
3rd option sounds the best to me.
i agree
Option #4
Industrial chrome plate the tapered splines on the 10X axle and then regrind in the tapered splines with a tool and cutter grinder. Apply wax to threads to keep the chrome plating off the threads.
With the option above you could install all of your unaltered 10A parts and then at a later date install your factory 10X parts. Unlike everything else, you wouldn't have to split the tractor.
3,000,000 views, Congratulations.
Mike
If you nickel plated the spline you could broach it with a form tool.
Option 3 would be the best choice in my mind due to getting all the benefits of a good used part that does not need to be welded up. If you absolutely wanted to use the old wheel hubs then go for it but i would also consider using the production wheel hubs after all it would make it all pretty easy.
I thought of option 3 before you outlined your ideas to re-machine the bearing locations to use the 10x housings. Go for it, you aren't going to do any harm, except possibly to future restoration of a production machine. Above all, you are being 100% honest about what you are planning.
Adam Booth at Abom79 did something similar enough so that custom fitting between two parts was done. At the very least,find a way to talk it over with him. Best darn machinist I know of.
Sprayweld and cut back ? Industrial plating and remachine ?
One earlier contributor hit a plan B that sounds workable. Do your plan 3,install but find a way to rebuild the 10X parts while carrying on with the tractor rebuild. That takes the time factor out of the loop. Then install the 10X parts at your later convenience. More work,some more expense,but it keeps your gumption up knowing the desired bits will not be abandoned.
Think that one over carefully. You can measure to your heart's content,bring all machined surfaces back to spec, including those bolt-on bearing extension cups. Taking the tractor apart enough to swap out the original axle bits is not that major an operation. Very good idea the gent came up with.
Mmmyyess(sp?) is the guy with the content that triggered my input.
Good luck with whichever choice you make.
as always your right on the money about pushing back the bearing size on the axles is the best option. making the step key will be fun. keep up the good work buddy.
It's your choice, but I like the idea of maching the new shafts to match the old ones, and keep the original hubs. Thanks for sharing.👍
I like the idea of machining the production axles back so that you can use the prototype covers. Its likely the most cost effective solution in order to keep as many of the prototype parts and look as possible. If your budget for the project is unlimited then it may be worth having the prototype axle splines welded and re-machined, but as you said no guarantee that it will work out. At least with the production axles you know that the gears and splines work.
I would go with your 3rd option. You can always repair the proto-type axles at a later date when time & money allow.
Option 3 sounds like the way to go.
Option 3 sounds like the best compromise.
We both know my opinion doesn't count for jack, but I'll share it with you anyway. Considering that you don't have unlimited finances and that you want the tractor to actually move (i.e., not just sit in a museum) rebuilding the X pieces or reinstalling the X pieces as they are isn't reasonable. Personally, I wouldn't begrudge you going with a straight production setup, and I don't think anyone else would, either. But considering how you feel about the machine -- and yours is the only opinion that really matters -- the solution you're leaning toward (i.e., machining back the bearing surface 2") sounds like a more-than-reasonable compromise between originality and practicality. Whatever you decide, I'll be looking forward to watching you implement it.
Totally agree with your Comment!I also will be looking Forward to your next Video!
I agree with your 3rd option. And I think it’s the way to go for x231. And would give you what you need for the axles. And i think it’s a win, win for you. With the least amount of machining or cost.
Keep it up. It looks great
I suspect the prototype parts were loose from the start which is why one axle was previously changed. Option 3 is probably the best and it was my thought when you first showed the axles. We had a large forklift break an axle that was no longer available. We sent it to Strange Engineering and they built a pair for a fairly reasonable price.
You know what I think. You're making this thing to WORK/run as good as it can be made to do so. If the old parts are too worn, you didn't do it. Someone else got the goodie out of it. Just go with your ideas and be done with it. You're NOT going to cobble it up, it's going to be as right as it can be with old parts. And so the sorting begins. Have at it and stay warm. Hi 2 Pop!
Option 3 is what I started thinking when you did the first side-by-side on the bench. Anything else like welding production spline end of the shaft to the X231 shafts would be asking for trouble.
Option 3, seems to be best way to accommodate the old/new issues.
I do believe number 3 would be the way to go for a running tractor and it's something that you can handle in house.
If you have a good lathe and know how to use it, Id turn down the production axels to fit the experimental bearing carriers. Those hard axels might be hard to cut though. On the outside the machine would be mostly the original experimental tractor and only the internal guts would not be original. the hard part is finding the balance between keeping it original and having it be mechanically sound. Either way this tractor is going to be a beautiful work of art again. Thank you for keeping this old iron alive when most people just throw it away.
You are there, and have lots of experience making that old stuff work. If you think the third option is best, you are best suited to make the decision. Good luck!!
Go with machining the bearing surface on the production axles, and making the round/square custom keys.
The third option is what I would go with,..BUT this is not my restoration,.I'm just a 'sidewalk superintendent' here,.you are the only person who needs to be satisfied in this one.
The worn original parts pretty much dictates what has to be done. With all this documentation on video, as well as what you have written in your 're-build book' will explain the path that you need to take to complete this the best way that you know how.
Keep going,..I, ( and I suspect a great number of the other subscribers to this channel ) will follow along.
Just had another idea. Fill the square grooves in the production axles, epoxy or metal like filler compounds. Turn the axle 180 degrees cut round grooves. Keep the axles painted to not show off the rebuilders fix.
Use the production axles, production bearing housings and production hubs, you're guaranteed they all fit, would take no additional $ or additional time. At the end of the day the only thing anyone will see is the square keyway and a taller bearing housing. Too much risk with cobbling the other parts together. Its going to be a parade tractor, but you still need to go on and off trailer ramps. Just my 2 cents.
I just recently went down the rabbit hole on this series, so I'm answering a question you most likely have already answered. Option one (production axles , bull gears, wheel hubs, and bearing housings) would be the cheapest, safest, and most effective option. With the machining equipment and skills you have, IMO, option 3 would be the best course of action. You can still use the production axles but keep the unique wheel hubs and bearing housings, thus keeping a couple more prototype pieces that are unique to this tractor.
Option 3 is the best and cheapest way to keep it rolling
Hi I think your third-option is the one to go for the expense of building up the splines and having no guarantee that it would work seems like a nonstarter to machine the shaft down so the out side dimensions stay the same and then you should be able to put all the out side components on with out to much of a struggle. Love your videos feel your pain
If I was in that position I most likely go with the third choose as long it measured up with the second axle as being the same and no bad after effects can sneak in there, if there was a protrusion of the bull gear I would make a shin pack to take up that distance, I think all this would work as the machine is not going into heavy work
I like the idea of using the production parts. If you ever sell the tractor you should throw in all the x parts in a bin to go with the tractor, imo that would be a great buy for a running 10x with all original parts there and borrowed parts making it run.
Relocate bearing location that is what I was thinking as soon as you pointed it out.
I agree with option 3. Not a better option except finding another prototype to pull parts from. Which is highly unlikely to find im sure. Go for internal parts no one will see but external part everyone can look at. Make it so
Turn back the production axles and do a custom key. You have the tools and it’s free other than time and you know it will fit and work the way you want it to.
Machining is the best option with custom key
my vote is option #3,but regardless what you do your impeccable documentation, and videos will improve the value of the tractor.
Option 3. What kind of material are those axles made out of? They might be difficult to work with on the lathe...
Even if they're too hard to cut, they could be ground.
OEM axles generally are not all that hard. The common thing with turning heat treated stuff is they need to be turned slow.
i have worked with the minneapolis moline axles before and they are not very hard at all
Squatch mate you look really pissed off that you are losing yet more original parts but look at it this way if it was not for you restoring this tractor it would have been on the scrap heap years ago, you are saving her for the prosperity of others to see that in itself is such a great thing to be doing, you should be very proud of yourself and not such a critic on your wonderful achievements, I’m fully aware of the credibility of having her as original as possible but you can only do what you can.
As for which way to go with the Tractor, well in my opinion if I was in your shoes I would go for option three, it make the most sense in my opinion financially and in authenticity!!
Forget The critics who are armchair warriors, forget the criticism that undermines your confidence, just keep doing what you are, another great video and as always such an interesting subject from such an interesting man.
All the best and happy Christmas 🎄
Option 3!!!!! I would be like you and want as much as the original as possible. Yet you still have to be cost conscious as well. So I think you would be making the best choice for you and the tractor and oh your TH-cam family!!!!
Enjoy your videos and learn a great deal.
your goal is a close to original parade queen. turn a set of production axles back and move on with your project. you can do it in house, the bearing supports will look proper to the X platform but with a mixed up key way that most will not know. I won"t tell.
My input is an option 3.1. You must use the prototype pieces that are customer facing (that which people will see). That requirement drives you into modifying the production axles. As you mentioned, you can do that yourself. But, as mentioned below, modify the production axles to use a round keyway. There are several ways in which that could be done. Unfortunately, you may need a machine shop for that. IMO, the custom key is no good. At the tractor show, a true collector will see that.
I've seen a few fordsons where the bull gear is not 100% tight on the axle splines after 50 years plus of abuse. the replacement axle is whats easiest, quickest and cheapest now, that the average guy won't know if you used the hubs to, as they have the part no on anyway. if you wanted to keep the 10x axles/hubs you know the proper right way that's only time and money.
If those axles were mine and no replacement was available, and it was a trailer queen, I'd probably build the badly worn side of the splines back up carefully with weld, then take a grinding disc, to get them near right, then fine tune "carefully" with a small cutting disc on a dremel tool with a flex shaft so i could "fine sculpt" the last bit for a fairly decent fit. I've done it on a few different shafts/ key ways and splines over the years. Is it really right no, but it's got the machine working again until the rest of it wore out, without spending 1000's of dollars. Or a week or more waiting for a machine shop, when the guy needed it yesterday or the day before L.O.L. I don't know what mills and tools you have maybe you could weld and cut it yourself somehow is my edited after thought ? Thanks for the update, Take care
Modify the production shaft, and make a custom key. Maintains most or the exterior appearance. Modifying the case is a no go IMHO. Make sure the shaft can't walk inboard allowing the bull gear to grab any of those ring gear bolts. Going that route also keeps options open. If you happen to botch the production shaft you can get replacements. If you feel froggy you can certainly get a machine shop to repair the prototype shafts, however keeping the cash in your pocket today means you it will be there tomorrow should you need spend your way out of a tight spot.
wait patiently for a good use set of axles show up on the market would be a butter solution
go for option 3, or get Abom79 to make a new set of axles for you. do not weld up the worn axels, will turn to sh*t and cost a lot more! Best to use the 10x hubs and bearing housings.
Keep up the good work, very interesting, even tho I am a IHC man. Seeya.
Seems like option 3 is the safe option, and allows you to use the original wheel bearing housings (which will keep the tractor looking original).
Option 3 sounds like it would be the best to keep the tractor as close to the original as possible
Option 3 sounds like your best bet. I would also keep the original parts with the ones you've already replaced due to damage. That way in the future, those parts will be with the tractor still. After all she will be a Diva tractor.
Option 3 sounds to be the best since you can do it all yourself.
It's a restoration- it does that. I would likely go with machining the production axles to fit.
Option 3 is the most reasonable approach and exactly what I was thinking as soon as you showed the difference in bearing locations. Would that make you Squatchwright Machine Works?
I personally would call Minneapolis moline and ask if its still under warranty. Seriously i would go along with your idea being its the simpler, safer, and less expensive route. Added benefit of keeping more original parts and we get to see more great videos from you
Suggestion --Could you make a collet out of the old bull gear to keep them running in line , Weld the splines then micro grind them with a thin Zipcut wheel to tighten it up be cheaper being it won`t see the field again then you can still use the round Key shafts
Fire up the lathe. Keep the old parts. It's completely reversible as long as you keep the axles. And put some of the old parts in a display.
I would go with option 3 it sounds like the best way to go. If you do option 3 please show the video.
Option 3 seems the best option and also the less expensive one.
Do the mods in your shop, use what you can, great videos, just found your channel and I am hooked, keep up the fantastic work
In the end it’s your tractor do as you wish. That said if it were mine I do option 3, if at a later date you want to sell it or a money tree grows in your back yard you could “fix” the 10x axles. Just mine 2 cents worth.
I have an idea but it will take some work. Machine the extra splines off the in board end of the axle so you can tighten the nut, maybe deepen the splines to get the proper contact. Move out the inner axle bearing race out the same amount as you machined off the splines. Then make a spacer to move the outer bearing to the correct position, I would use a nice press fit on the spacer maybe make the wall a little heavier than the shaft OD. You might have to fill in some off the round key way to get the seal a full running surface. If you try this and can't make it work you can always go back to production axles.
Option 3, rotate the production axle and cut the round key way as well. It would be a great conversation piece to highlight the design evolution.
Looks like you should go with option number three sir
I would do option 3 when you first showed the axles that was the first thought i had
Option 3 would be the winner for me thanks for posting
Spray weld X239 axle splines and recut.
Option 3 is the way to go. When you show the completed tractor, make a display of the old X parts to show with the tractor.
I don't see replacing the bull gears as something to worry about since they are concealed, but modifying the production axle would be my choice since you can use the unique 10X bearing housings which ARE visible. It would also be a good choice economically since you can do it yourself and show us some lathe footage.
Option 4 , machine new shafts total to match original proto type as that would be faster than weld up / heat treat/ re cut, IMO ,,, But I feel option 3 is the best / cost effective / speed / self control of job. IMO
Option 3 sounds the best, on time, the pocketbook, and keep it as close to orginal as possible.
Looks like the best solution is to run the modified shafts production bull gears and original wheel hubs. No one can turn the hands of time back and prevent the damage. Repair it like your going to put it back to work. Make it a serviceable tractor. Bandaids, Bubblegum & bailing wire are for temporary fixes. Fix it right the first time, Is the way to go. Original may have to suffer, there is a big difference between restore and repair.
Option 3 keeps it looking original
Good option but something to think about, what about going with production axles and bull gears keeping the X231. Take the prototype axles to me machined and even though more work, install at a later date? Would keep you rolling and also get you back to prototype in the future when funds and time are more on your side? That would be how I would do it as yo have all the original pieces to make sure the fit and end result of the final X231 is proper without feeling rushed.
I feel ya pain, ive had the same problems in the uk with old cars . plan3 got my vote , but id like to keep the x31 parts out to show people what the difference are very heavy display case ..lol.. get her all good and running ...don't think ya going sell her sooo get her chugging along :)
Modifying those will work however contact a utuber named abomb. He don’t miss on specs. If not a subscriber already check him out. I’d bet he could spray weld your gears and recut them as well. The repaired axels can be installed later or just kept as OEM parts for that machine.
You could have the splined axle ends lightly spray welded in a lathe, far cheaper than your original welding option. With a little practice you could even do it yourself.
What would they have done if this had failed back at the beginning? Fabricate new prototype parts or modify existing parts? Thinking your choice will be the same as theirs and almost no wrong answer as this is a prototype. Fun project and I enjoy following.
Modify the production axles keep the original bearing housings