Avoidant Personality Disorder & performance anxiety
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Today I discuss the link I observe between AvPD, performance anxiety, and social anxiety. Thanks for watching.
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❤ Shame, shame, shame... Yes, I totally relate to this. Chronic shyness as a kid, social anxiety as an adult, don't want to be watched, judged, don't want people to think I'm stupid or unable... at the root of it all is shame.
Very interesting, for me it goes beyond just meeting people, I hate things like opening a card or personalised mail, as it might mean I have to respond in some way. Opening presents in front of people is something else I hate too. For me it is the fear of not responding in the appropriate way.
Do you sometimes find when pushed to interact with people that you put on a super confident mask?
Oh my gosh I totally feel you - when I open a gift I always respond so over-the-top like it’s the best thing I’ve ever gotten even if it’s a gift card hahahah. I hate it. And even when I screen phone calls, I can’t even listen to the voicemail right away, I have to wait until I’m mentally prepared to hear the demand. 😅
But yes, I like to think I’m incredible at masking my low self esteem in social engagements (with the exception of the occasional self-deprecating joke to try and seem relatable which usually just makes people feel awkward lol) and that’s why it’s so draining for me. I don’t typically act shy at all when with people, which is why I default to avoiding it altogether because it’s just so exhausting.
Thank you for being so honest with us about your feelings. Your information has been so helpful for me, trying to help my daughter who has been suffering a similar journey as you since being diagnosed in 1st grade with ADHD, Anxiety, School Refusal & Depression. I list these in that order specifically because that is the order in which they occurred. First, a learning disability, then missing school, followed by the schools coming down on her, & her parents. The parents come down on the child. The child feels they have disappointed everyone they love or admire. This = Depression. The undiagnosed learning disability lead to childhood trauma in the school system. Pressure from not living up to the expectations of loved ones, teachers, principle. Feeling that pressure=Anxiety because she wanted so badly to do well in school, but couldn’t & so it manifested in her mind creating Psychosomatic Symptoms which targeted her gut , keeping her home sick & missing tremendous amounts of school. Because she missed so much school and the teachers were always yelling at her, she was ostracized by her piers & seen as a leper. No one wanted to be her friend. Kicking a rock on the playground, never being invited to play dates, sleepovers or birthday parties… even her 2nd grade teacher isolated her by moving her desk to the back wall of the classroom next to the garbage pale. We didn’t know because she was too ashamed & afraid to tell us. It wasn’t until parent teacher night that we saw it for ourselves, it broke our hearts. She is the sweetest, most empathic and forgiving little person I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and I hope to have her courage one day.
Oh my goodness, sending so much love to you and your daughter. 🥺❤️🩹 I can relate to the anxiety causing physical issues too - I was hospitalized in high school for “heart problems” and chronic fatigue that eventually turned out to be completely the result of my extreme anxiety in that environment. Luckily I also had a mother that tried her absolute best to advocate for me and support me during that time, so I can say from experience that it’s invaluable what you’re doing for her. Thank you. ❤️❤️❤️
I was just thinking about this and I'm glad you brought this up. I feel as if I am perpetually the "third wheel" with just one person or a group. There's never chemistry or flow to conversations you'd see from other people. If it's more than 1 person or in a crowded place, than I'm just there not adding much of anything. Maybe it's a combination of long term depression, a life time of social isolation and low self esteem, child neglect, peer bullying and possibly brain damage that constrain my social abilities. One thing that really drags me down is the constant awkward "tip of the tongue" conversations which has been pervasive all my life. I also speak in a flat and mostly emotionless manner so my social performance would rank pretty low. I can however speak in funny accents and have more flare in my speech when I'm alone. I think practicing acting scripts may help?
I totally think it could! I think that’s why the cashier interactions aren’t a problem for me anymore (they used to be when I was young and paid for things in cash - there was a chance for me to make a fool of myself then) because I’ve “practiced” it so many times I know exactly what to do and say to get through it.
I think a great example of performance anxiety can be seen in sports. In school, I've always wanted to learn how to play sports, but I've been too afraid to try, fearing that I wouldn't be good enough. And I wasn't good enough because I wasn't playing... I believe we all understand too well that there is no room for compassion in school. You can teach yourself to ride a bike or learn to play an instrument, but when it comes to team sports, you need others to accept you and participate alongside you.
I don't remember how I learned to ride a bike, but it definitely wasn't on the day when my dad took me to the public park and forced me to ride it while everyone else watched as I fell and cried because of it 😂
Yet another video where I get the feeling that you're delving into my mind, attempting to make sense of it all (it's starting to get creepy, Maxine 🙄😅).
Hahahah I’m glad to have someone understand me so thoroughly. 😅
It’s so funny you mention sports because I had completely blocked this out of my mind but I did in fact play middle school volleyball and it was the most horrible experience ever because I was not exactly a star athlete. 😅 After that, I swore off all sports, no band or choir, no theatre (except as a stage hand) or any other extra curricular that required being witnessed. 😂
👏👏👏 Excellent "performance" Maxine, you present a well-arranged and articulated train of thought in your examples and excellent points about the value of granularity in exploring this or any other set of issues rather than the standard blanket "I have (...social anxiety, ...a headache, ...lost my keys, ...)" for understanding, managing, or resolving the problem. I appreciate that you presented this despite it "only" being "as far as you've gotten in your thought process" as that self-perceived lack of competence from incomplete understanding may be one of the biggest issues that derails progress for many of us. Offering what parts of the puzzle you have provides an example to serve as a starting point for others and opens the discussion for them to contribute their own piece to better understanding and improvement, a potential game-changer for people who suffer with a condition that little research or assistance is available for. Good on ya' for opening the door to mutual assistance through crowd-sourcing.
As someone recently self-assessed with both Schizoid and Avoidant adaptations I am inclined toward the older psychoanalytic research (Guntrip, Bleuler, Laing, etc.) from the days before psychologists (generally) became street peddlers for drug kingpins- your approach here seems well-aligned with that school of thought. From my research and introspection I am coming to the conclusion that AvPD and SPD are MUCH more closely related than the DSM5 indicates, that they are either parallel reactions to similar causal factors or that the specific differential traits of SPD are actually a set of effects stemming from an early unconscious extreme coping mechanism for the anxiety of AvPD (suggesting progression). In essence, maybe the schizoid defense serves as a "wet blanket" to douse the anxiety (and shame/dissappointment) by dissociation from emotional and somatic feedback and their sources, resulting in reduced hedonic reward > apathy > withdrawal> inward focus (intellectualization/fantasy) > lack of socialization > avolition(depression, nihilism) > wash, rinse, repeat until numb and fragmented (freeze/shutdown). I'm curious how you and other Avoidants experience your anxiety symptoms, if you are aware of a progression similar to my description, what strategies you find helpful (emotional or intellectual) and to what degree/contexts they help you to exert voluntary control.
My own progression began very young (birth probably) so the AvPD and SPD adaptations have been simultaneously present since before my teens but progressed more toward the SPD side until I met and married my wife, at which point the balance shifted back toward the AvPD side with a slightly improved interest in and ability to form and maintain relationships with others. After her loss, a subsequent abusive relationship (and loss), and very dissappointing developments with friends and lack of support, I find the SPD traits (anhedonia, apathy, dissociation/alexithymia, dysthymia/depressive episodes, avolition/executive functioning issues) are manifesting stronger than ever and seem to be progressing. I have heard you speak of similar issues, a primary difference being the awareness of anxiety in your descriptions- in my case, there is SOMETHING just beneath the surface causing ripples but it's difficult to identify or connect with. Sometimes I can experience emotions through fantasy/visualization or by proxy/vicariously (sometimes evocative music helps), at other times I am so dissociated that I experience momentary mind-blankness and derealization, involuntary automatic thoughts, and/or (delayed) somatic symptoms of social anxiety (restlessness, elevated blood pressure, headache, etc.) without any awareness of an "emotional" experience (autism traits?).
My relatively few accessible memories of childhood almost exclusively have no emotional "soundtrack" that others' seem to have, so it is difficult to "feel" a connection between cause and effect; it is more like studying a bug under a microscope combined with speculation and educated guess. Yet there is a vague "awareness"(somehow) of deep sensitivity, empathy and longing leaking out between the blocks of stone that form the inner dissociative walls, and it seems to have a lot in common with AvPD. I am trying to gain greater access to my emotions so I can hopefully reprogram some of the defensive adaptations and reward mechanisms so I can re-engage with life. So I'm curious, how do you experience anxiety, in terms of somatic, emotional, intellectual, or some other form of awareness. I can identify some minor outward signs from your videos, like a slight tremble in your voice sometimes- that's not a criticism, but an acknowledgement of the courage you're tapping into to bring your content to us. You're doing great, and great things, so keep it up Maxine, you are appreciated.
I hope whatever THIS was helps somebody get a more nuanced idea of their own dynamics.😊
Thank you so much for the kind words of encouragement, first of all. I admit I haven’t delved that deeply into research of SPD, but from what I understand about it, I agree that it is *very* closely related to AvPD and totally see how one could experience both profiles at different points. From my understanding, like you said, the main difference is the disconnection from emotions and disinterest in forming/maintaining relationships (which of course seems like a natural progression from years of coping with being avoidant and lonely.)
I hope I’m able to answer your question, but for me there are 2 emotional states I associate with my AvPD, one being the anxiety that comes with facing my fears, and the other being the pain of my perceived failures.
The anxiety looks like trembling, sweating, subconscious self-soothing “stims” like playing with my hair or cracking my knuckles, nausea, and then racing thoughts surrounding the general themes of people thinking I’m a weird loser lol. This is all in anticipation of a social obligation.
In the time after or between these social engagements, unless I keep myself distracted (which I do as often as possible), I’m typically met with what I guess could be described as deep feelings of shame, accompanied by a literal pain deep in my chest (like heart break?). I am such a sensitive person that even when I’m in periods of nihilistic depression where nothing feels worth it, I still feel deeply lonely and am longing for connection. I can use tactics to help me disassociate from that pain temporarily, but it never fully goes away.
Again, I hope that answers your question. 😅❤️ Thank you for such a thoughtful and supportive comment.
So sweet to hear about the relationship you have with your sister❤️ it’s so great that you have such a close connection with her.
I’m sooooo lucky to have her 🥹❤️
@@anxious_and_avoidantis she the older or younger sibling? I’m curious about the dynamic!
She’s actually my little sister. 😊 She’s 3 years younger. We had a normal sibling relationship when we were young and then drifted apart when I first went to high school and then away for college, and unfortunately we didn’t really reconnect in this way until I had moved away and we were both adults. But yeah, now we’re kind of long-distance codependent. 😅😂 Despite being younger and very similar to me, I think of her as the more mature, smarter, and definitely funnier one of the two of us hahaha.
@@anxious_and_avoidant Aw, cool! I don’t have quite the same closeness with my sibling, but my brother also happens to be 3 years younger than me and we’ve definitely rekindled our relationship since becoming adults! We went through a similar distancing when I was a teenager up until I was halfway through college or so.
Even though we aren’t super close, there’s definitely a special kind of familiarity/comfort that comes from interacting with a family member I think. I know my brother and I have very complementary styles of humor which makes it ridiculously easy for us to make jokes with each other, even if we haven’t caught up in awhile.
im sooo glad you brought this up because the way you put it, with the people you dont have anxiety around being either ppl youve known since you were born or complete strangers, is *exactly* how ive been explaining it for years! that concept of extremes was always funny to me because at first glance it doesnt make sense, but when youre in it, its the most sense-making thing in the world. im so glad you made this channel and that i found it because just listening to you talk about stuff ive been struggling for years is so helpful. THANK YOU, from the bottom of my heart 🩷🩷
YOURE SO WELCOME it genuinely helps me too to get validating comments like this so I’m happy to do it and happy you’re here 🥹❤️
Had i discovered your channel before accidentally learning about ASD in females and getting diagnosed with that AT 50, I absolutely would’ve thought i had APD to go with my agoraphobia and social anxiety . Almost everything you say resonates with me SO MUCH. Never learned to ride a bike tho😆
I believe AvPD is likely very comorbid with both ADHD and ASD. I’m not an expert, but it seems like it takes a particularly sensitive kid to manifest symptoms in this way. I’d love to be assessed for ASD eventually, but idk if I ever will have the chance.
Very interesting topics. Oh yes, I hate this part, the one anxious in front of certain people. It’s absolutely terrifying, especially in my career. I’m definitely in the wrong career but can’t imagine one where this would not effect me. It’s animal.
I just try and have compassion for myself and also keep it at the top of my mind that we all have this, not one human does not.
I just need to get better at controlling my actions. I can’t seem to think fast enough to do the perfect thing. Ugh.
Am I the only one that also finds texting and calling to be very exhausting? Because in my eyes that also kind of feels like putting on a performance. In a sense that i feel like i cant say everything because i dont want to be weird/ a burden to people. I also never initiate a text/call because I feel like i don't want to put pressure on people that they have to talk to me. But also because it just feels exhausting to keep up a conversation. I dont like that i cant directly see the reaction of the person on the receiving end and always feel like i'm saying something stupid or triggering. But I also constantly think that if they are reacting in a certain way (without emojis for example), that they are angry at me. It's just alot. 😅 idk it just feels very overwhelming. Sorry this is such a long message, but i was just curious😊
Oh toooootally phone calls are the bane of my existence, no joke there are so many things I put off for way too long simply because they require me making a phone call and it genuinely feels impossible to overcome my anxiety around it sometimes.
I’m much more comfortable texting because I can fully think out what I’m going to say before I say it, but as some may have noticed in my other comments, I’m an obsessive emoji user because it’s so important to me to be able to convey the tone behind the message. 😅 A message without emojis automatically reads as aggressive/mad to me in most cases hahaha.
@@anxious_and_avoidant yeah exactly! It's horrible😣
Silly/goofy? That´s not that bad now, is it? Im happy my work allow me for dealing with the problems i deal with!
Haha I also have a black hoodie snd wear it when I’m just home comfy. Anyway, yes, it seems very draining to feel like with social anxiety you constantly need to monitor and “perform well” with some people you don’t feel completely accepted by and where it matters to you. I have similar feeling with many of my friends. I too have a sister and feel most comfortable to be myself and confident with her and my mother.😊 I’m anxious around other people because i fear being rejected and doing something wrong without realizing. 😢 when I fear something now I think of the worst and say:” bring it on, let’s see” and expect the worst. Then, the fear disappears and i can let it go. It somehow gives me a bit of courage for that moment. I don’t know if this works for everyone, but it works in some moments for me not always. At times I need to gather all the hope I can find. Also, doing something creative like painting, drawing, writing or music really helps to unload the fear. Once last year I had to give a presentation in front of a bunch of people about my life, it was so frightening because it was so personal. I gathered my hopes but thought about calling it off last minute. Then I decided to scream really loudly and do singing excersizes. This sort of helped me to boldly express myself and have more courage.
“Btw; not screaming in front of them but by myself just before the presentation”. 😅
Oh my gosh that reminds me that I should talk about the physical/tangible “hacks” we can do to ease some anxiety via tapping into our nervous systems! Because I used to roll my eyes sooo hard when people would suggest breathing exercises and stuff but then I finally tried putting an ice pack on my chest one time when I was spiraling into a panic attack and it genuinely helped so fast. 😅 I think the screaming/singing/dancing is a similar strategy. Although the stress is in our minds, it manifests through physical symptoms (shakes, sweating, stomach upset, etc) and so I do think we can sometimes go the other way with it too, at least to help in the short-term of course.
It’s so funny that the anxiety exists as a mechanism for safety, but now we feel unsafe at the thought of embarrassing ourselves. 🙄😂 So dramatic when you think about it lol.
@@anxious_and_avoidant Yes exactly 👍 Sometimes I do not have the patience for breathing exercises, but the moment I decided to do it, it helped in certain moments. Haha I never heard about tapping physically into your nervous system. That sounds interesting😄 I can see how it can help as well, to ground yourself
@@anxious_and_avoidant It’s like being social feels like an obstacle course. I never quite know if I’m doing oke with people. And even if I am doing oke, I get filled with remorse after every social interaction: like “ what did I day”. I vaguely think I said something wrong or I offended people, but I don’t know. Maybe this overlaps with your adhd?
Yeah I feel like *during* the social situation, my ADHD “charm” and masking abilities take the wheel and I almost black out 😅 Like I’m not thinking too much in the moment, I just open my mouth and words come out and I have a huge propensity for over-sharing (I’ve heard this is adhd related too lol) and then as soon as the social event is over, I breathe a sigh of relief and think “that went better than expected!” But then I’ll spend the next 1-3 days pouring over everything I can remember saying and eventually convincing myself that it *didnt* go well and I actually made a total ass of myself. 🤡 hahahahahah
(sweatshirt) It's probably a uniform, for consistency 😉
You say it’s a fear of being unable to perform, but do you think it’s a fear of how you’ll judge yourself or how others might judge you? Have you learned about perfectionism and toxic shame, especially for those that deal with complex ptsd this is a common problem that I’ve also dealt with. I recommend Heidi Prieb’s channel she has a lot of valuable info about this
Yes, absolutely. I’m not sure if I mention it in this video but in a couple I’ve shared my theory that all personality disorders are essentially forms of cptsd, so I think anyone with a PD would benefit greatly from information and resources on that as well. Thank you for the recommendation! ❤️
I sometimes wonder if it's healthier to actively allow myself to perform poorly... If I disappoint others, they expect less from me. Which is a good thing for me in some way? Because I always try to maintain this "perfect" image of myself, which gradually puts me under more and more pressure to perform. It's completely impossible to maintain this image anyway. At some point, it crumbles all by itself...
I feel this too - I’m decent enough to perform well when meeting someone for the first time, but the longer I know someone, the more I avoid because I’ve already set a standard that feels impossible to keep up. This is why I’m trying to a) build confidence in myself so that I don’t feel like my unmasked self is anything to be ashamed of, and b) actively try to be less masked and perform less when it isn’t really necessary. It’s hard to do though after a lifetime of feeling like you need to be perfect! ❤️🩹
What is the difference between social anxiety and avpd? I have social anxiety but a lot of symptoms seem to overlap so I am a bit confused.
Yep, they are verrrrry similar. One way to think about it is that AvPD is like the most extreme version of social anxiety - where it bleeds into *all* relationships (even close ones) and is so pervasive that it greatly impacts your ability to form or maintain relationships at all. Social anxiety is more situational, where it may only pop up in group settings or certain kinds of events, for example.
The underlying basis to AvPD is a severe lack of self esteem and fear of rejection, which might not be present in those with “regular” social anxiety. ❤️
Hey, another avoidant and socially anxious person here! 👋How do you feel about being viewed by your close family in a get together, or group setting type of event where you are having to socialize with people that are strangers to you? Does being in the presence of your family effect how you interact with a stranger because you'd be masking and you'd feel it would be awkward doing that when your close family members could see it and how your interactions with other people go?
I have to admit that that one freaks me out and I just had to deal with it a couple weeks back. Of course normally I would avoid any types of get togethers or social events, but it was a surprise party situation that I was at the center of, so no one clued me in... Sooo that was "fun" and I'm still kinda freaking out about it. 😨
Good question! Ironically, I don’t think about this much - I guess because those people that truly know me (like my family) know that I’m anxious and am just trying to get through the situation. Occasionally I’ll feel myself over-acting and wonder if anyone’s noticing, but because I’m comfortable with them, I know they understand.
I’ve actually noticed this more from the other perspective - watching those close to me navigate social interactions and realizing they’re playing up their mannerisms or telling a story in a certain cadence to be more captivating, etc. and I find it quite endearing honestly because that’s just being a human! ❤️
Not gonna lie though, I love the idea of being cared enough about for someone to throw me a surprise party but also in practice I can’t imagine anything more jarring 😅
That's definitely a better way to think/feel about it. I'm sure my family probably knows I'm in panic mode just trying to get through these kind of things and not really judging as much as I might assume as I overthink about it.
I've also noticed my parents and my brothers playing up mannerisms and becoming more extroverted in their speech in telling stories and talking with people in group settings (or even just one on one with other people in general). It's not something I can do, but I do wonder what it would be like to feel so socially free in the same type of setting? Just not something I can manage. 🤐
That surprise party get together was very nice. I'll never want to do something like it again, but I did appreciate it. I'm still overthinking about a few of my interactions with people as it never seems to go perfect. I did try my best though and considering I had no prep time to get ready for it I'm surprised It didn't go worse.
Anyways, thanks for putting out these videos. I find them very relatable and it's always nice to know you're not alone in the struggle with social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder.
Are you me ?
👀👀👀
I wish I could post that gif of the two Spider-Mans pointing at each other hahahahaha
I have really bad performance anxiety. My goal is to be some sort of artist and that’s a whole conundrum lol. Even working feels scary when someone is watching even if I know my work performance is just fine. I guess it stems from a fear of failure or being berated. Failure and criticism are a necessary element to becoming a master, but try getting my brain on board with that 😅 It wants to run away. Even took years of opera lessons to just do nothing, because fear. 🫨🫠 Silly brain. Btw you deserve to give yourself some credit for being able to make these videos. I’m too scared to make videos just talking there’s always some goofballery to avoid anything serious or negative. So you’re very courageous to come on here and be so transparent with us. Thanks it helps to know I can have these anxieties and still learn to push through and just do the thing! Like Shia says JUST DO IT!!! 😂
Oh man I think constantly how much simpler my life would have been if I had chosen to be an accountant, but noooo I *had* to want to do something artistic so bad. 🙄😅 But it’s so true that failure and criticism are literally necessary in learning and growing but it feels so personal. 😭
@@anxious_and_avoidant Well keep going. We both deserve to do the hard work and come out the other end stronger and better for it. Hands 🙌