I love the look of the Howard Roberts. I played one for years. But I must say, I aways hated the two tone nob idea. All it did for me was confuse me and make it harder to get the true jazz sound I was looking for. But it was a great guitar. BTW, both Howard and Herb were master players, incredible to listen to. Howard was a fantastic teacher and I went to several of his workshops. Thanks, John Gig Harbor, WA
Damn! I wish you lived closer so I could take lessons from you. I've been playing for seventy-two years, but the chords and single string arrangements you do really make me grin from ear to ear. No one plays like this locally in the Ozark mountains of NW Arkansas, so there's no one to jam with and work on new chops and ideas. All I get I get from TH-cam like the things you put on here. Thanks for all the posts. Just wish you lived closer. Keep up the good work.
Nice video. Rich, do you remember what year the Howard Roberts was made? Also, have you ever played the Ibanez HR? If so, what are your thoughts on it and how does it differ fro the Gibson and the Epiphone??
I think Herb´s is a design that fit the time period of the music Herb played. Howard came later and his design fit the music of his time period. I am a sax player and had the wonderful experience of playing gigs with Howard in Minneapolis in the 70´s. Great guy and willing to share his knowledge.
Hi Rich! I had a HE (with the set pickup) and loved it (of course for some vague reason I sold it, I think to get a NY Epiphone Triumph Regent for more acoustic tone. Many guitars and years later, I'm doing a trade of an old Gibson solid body I got cheap & restored, for an Ibanez Howard Roberts, and wondering If you've come across the Ibanez version?? Guess I'll know more about it after this Sunday, but just wondering what you might think? I AM however, really happy with my Turbocaster TJM Deluxe Hollow (the one you tried at the guitar show last year), and it amazingly works really well for acoustic sounding Swing rhythm! Getting ready to build another! Hope you and Gail are doing well!! Kevin
I hear you have some flatwounds on the ES 165 but the original Howard Roberts had a floating pick up and the flame maple top. You forgot to mention what kind of strings you have on because they make more of a difference than any settings on your amps.. I noticed this is one of the few guitars that you have flat ones on.Did you just discover them?
These are great guitars. I think a player learns over time to get what he wants out of whatever he/she has ( nod to Emily Remler ). I had an old "Kalamazoo" Epiphone Howard Roberts from the mid 70's to the mid 80's. I used it in tandem with a Ramirez 1a on a microphone for maybe 70-100 nights a year of solo loungy -type background jobs lasting 5 1/2 hours ( with breaks )out in casino and skihill jobs in Nevada. I got really used to the Howard Roberts, but I had the interior stuffed with "pillow stuffing" so that I could play it with bands and in shows without the "low feedback ceiling" . Noisy clubs sometimes. Unfortunately, it fell off of a guitar stand forward which broke the top of the headstock off. It was repaired with small wooden dowels and repainted quite well by a repairman in Reno. After some years, the crack line started to move, and I got afraid of it and sold it, as no more necks were coming out of Kalamazoo by then. I'm from Indianapolis and have seen and played Wes Montgomery's old L5 ( with his name inlaid in the pickguard- repaired after surviving being in a house fire ). He learned to play with his thumb because his landlady lived upstairs, and he had to try to play quietly to "keep from bothering her"... can you imagine? It's the truth though. G ood luck!
One major difference is the neck scale length. The Herb Ellis, I'm pretty sure, is the same as the ES-175 with a 24.75 inch scale. I have a '74 Howard Roberts (same burgundy color as yours), and it's a 25.5 inch scale (same as an L5), which I love! The longer scale length gives the strings a tighter sound, under more tension. I swear the oval sound hole make a huge difference. What do you think? BTW, I disabled the midrange knob completely on mine. Oh, and nice playing by the way!
I have a Gibson Howard Roberts Custom like that and I can’t seem to get it Mellow enough with Medium strings so I’m going to go with 13 gauge flat wounds! Just hand a fret job and it glides beautifully! I’m playing out of a Fender Blues Jr. tube amp so I should be able to mellow it out with heavier strings! 🤞🏻yours sounds great!
Because of the Covid-19 lockdown, I had time to uncase my guitar and the two books of yours (pictured in frames on your wall) , I opened them are read them again after many years. They are still great, packed with useful, timesless information. I'll stop now b/c this is "Thank You" note is getting too long.
Rich, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how tone is affected on these two particular guitars with regard to the location of the pickup relative to the end of the fingerboard. I recall the Ibanez Joe Pass model being criticized for sounding too thin, as a result of moving the pickup closer to the bridge, due to a couple of added frets, in the production guitars, over that originally contemplated.
Both guitars are great for 'thrash metal' :-). Beautiful guitars and nice playing :-). Personally, I'd go for the Howard Roberts :-). Thank you for uploading.
Those were beauts, especially the HR Model, but it might have an Ebony Fretboard There was a choice offered, and it was a long Scale neck 25-1/2" I believe. Thanks for your Vids. Ott.
Great demo comparison, always wanted the Howard Roberts model. I play an L4 I have had for 20 plus years. Would love to see you play a Howard Roberts Fusion model
I have owned an HR Fusion for nearly 30 years. For the $$, an excellent guitar, but it has generally flown below most players’ radar. It will hang with more expensive, better known axes. It also is an attractive looking instrument.
I have a 1968 sunburst Epiphone Howard Roberts - precursor to the Gibson remake. It is my A #1, my true love. It is a top shelf guitar IMHO. At that time Gibson had bought Epiphone, but they had not yet moved the Epi manufacturing or lowered the craftsmanship to be the lower line Gibson yet. In fact, although the Epi Howard Roberts was less ornate than the later Gibson, it was a better crafted instrument. You can hear the difference immediately since the Epi was a solid carved top (vs. the Gibson being the lower cost/higher production laminate top). The Epi did not have the 3rd midrange knob which is a constant source of confusion and complaint from Gibson owners. That midrange knob is a bit tricky to manage. I've been told, but haven't confirmed that it's not a midrange knob but a midrange band-pass filter, so it is essentially a moving dip or maybe a moving peak across a broad mid frequency range rather than just a swelling midrange peak that a midrange knob would be. Anyway, the Epi and the GIbson feel and sound different, with the Epi providing a more woody, slightly darker sound with beautiful bell-like tones - a little more toward the Jim Hall tone maybe. This is all from my own recollection comparing mine to a Gibson, but have never compared the two directly - never had both in front of me at the same time. I wish Rich would do a video comparing an Epi Roberts to a Gibson Roberts!
Hey Robert! Thank for your comment! I have done a comparison on the Howard Roberts Epiphone Vs Howard Roberts Gibson, you can watch it here: th-cam.com/video/ocqgEUIXLv0/w-d-xo.html I totally agree with all of your comments and did not know that about that 3rd knob. You are right though about the confusion behind it. It is not just a tone knob but it was hard to find information on exactly what it was. Your theory makes sense though, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge!
I love both guitars, but I'll admit I'm biased towards the HR model because I own one just like it, and HR was the best player ever. It just nails that tone I was looking for. Great demo, really enjoyed it!
I like the brightness of the Howard Roberts. To me it's a real obvious difference. Don't know any of the technicals. Just what I'm hearing. Robert sounds much brighter and clearer.
Also a difference in the feel with the larger scale length requiring slightly higher string tension (for equal pitch/tuning). Some people compensate by using lighter gauge strings on the longer scale instrument, particularly if they bend a lot. I'm guessing that with equal gauge strings the longer scale length instrument will be a bit louder (all other things like body size/shape/bracing/etc. being identical), due to the higher string tension. The bridge being one-piece ebony on the HR vs. multi-part steel Tunomatic on the HE will also affect the sound - perhaps the sustain and for sure the tone, with a woodier tone with the ebony.
So what is the potential feedback difference between the f hole design and the round hole HR model? I would think that the round hold would have greater feedback issues, but I've never played a jazz box with a round hole, so I have no experience with that.
Good question I never had either of them loud enough to feedback. I use to play a 60's HR and never had feedback. The quilter isn't voiced like a Fender so I don't think there would be a problem
Both are great guitars…the Elis is warmer and the Howard is clearer…and with the extra tone control, i would say it is more versatile…The Howard is smaller and nicer looking..so I would go with the Howard !
I have a 74 HR, sun bleached so lots of salmon pink colours, put a Vox bridge onto the Gibson saddle, clearer tone, the inductor should be fitted to every guitar, lovely ceramic shawbucker, one of the most difficult guitars to construct by Gibson, the craftsmen didn't enjoy making them. And probably not that profitable. I run heavy flats, think I might go lighter, was wondering what gauge was used here on the HR. Anyway mines a keeper.
For me, the Herb Ellis it's warmer and sounds more like a jazz guitar. Of course everybody's taste is different. Don't hear much difference with the mid-range controls on the Roberts guitar
I think the main difference between the ES 175 and that Es 165 guitar is it that guitar has a higher finish quality there’s a lot of variation on theES1 75.
The Roberts model looks like it was just slapped together .PU is too close to the sound hole .Although it has a wonderful tone. But a great guitarist like yourself can make anything sound good .
I love the look of the Howard Roberts. I played one for years. But I must say, I aways hated the two tone nob idea. All it did for me was confuse me and make it harder to get the true jazz sound I was looking for. But it was a great guitar. BTW, both Howard and Herb were master players, incredible to listen to. Howard was a fantastic teacher and I went to several of his workshops.
Thanks, John
Gig Harbor, WA
Both sound so darn good in your hands. Used to have a 94 Herb but man,,, the Howard, wow!
Damn! I wish you lived closer so I could take lessons from you. I've been playing for seventy-two years, but the chords and single string arrangements you do really make me grin from ear to ear. No one plays like this locally in the Ozark mountains of NW Arkansas, so there's no one to jam with and work on new chops and ideas. All I get I get from TH-cam like the things you put on here. Thanks for all the posts. Just wish you lived closer. Keep up the good work.
I have 3 web sites that can help you + Skype lessons
jazz-guitar-improv.teachable.com/
guitarcollegelibrary.com/
www.guitarcollege.net/home.html
Very thorough comparison. Thanks for taking the time and for the treat of hearing you caress these songs
I ve fallen in love with the Howard Roberts guitar as it has everything I need from a guitar. Thanks for the comparison video..
Nice video. Rich, do you remember what year the Howard Roberts was made? Also, have you ever played the Ibanez HR? If so, what are your thoughts on it and how does it differ fro the Gibson and the Epiphone??
I think Herb´s is a design that fit the time period of the music Herb played. Howard came later and
his design fit the music of his time period. I am a sax player and had the wonderful experience of
playing gigs with Howard in Minneapolis in the 70´s. Great guy and willing to share his knowledge.
how cool
@@RichSeversonGuitar For sure- Giant Steps in 3/4 LOL
Hi Rich! I had a HE (with the set pickup) and loved it (of course for some vague reason I sold it, I think to get a NY Epiphone Triumph Regent for more acoustic tone.
Many guitars and years later, I'm doing a trade of an old Gibson solid body I got cheap & restored, for an Ibanez Howard Roberts, and wondering If you've come across the Ibanez version?? Guess I'll know more about it after this Sunday, but just wondering what you might think?
I AM however, really happy with my Turbocaster TJM Deluxe Hollow (the one you tried at the guitar show last year), and it amazingly works really well for acoustic sounding Swing rhythm! Getting ready to build another!
Hope you and Gail are doing well!! Kevin
Both are nice guitars. To my ears, the Ellis has the warmer tone. Very nice playing.
Both sound superb. Wouldn't mind having one of these.
Love these demos Rich and the great guitar playing that goes with them, by the way, you your demo of the sweet 16 got me to buy one, gorgeous guitar!
Cool!
I hear you have some flatwounds on the ES 165 but the original Howard Roberts had a floating pick up and the flame maple top. You forgot to mention what kind of strings you have on because they make more of a difference than any settings on your amps.. I noticed this is one of the few guitars that you have flat ones on.Did you just discover them?
It’s all in the hands... and the heart.... sounds great Rich.
The video I have been waiting for, thanks!
Amazingly different both guitars, thanks for the video 🙌🏼
These are great guitars. I think a player learns over time to get what he wants out of whatever he/she has ( nod to Emily Remler ). I had an old "Kalamazoo" Epiphone Howard Roberts from the mid 70's to the mid 80's. I used it in tandem with a Ramirez 1a on a microphone for maybe 70-100 nights a year of solo loungy -type background jobs lasting 5 1/2 hours ( with breaks )out in casino and skihill jobs in Nevada. I got really used to the Howard Roberts, but I had the interior stuffed with "pillow stuffing" so that I could play it with bands and in shows without the "low feedback ceiling" . Noisy clubs sometimes. Unfortunately, it fell off of a guitar stand forward which broke the top of the headstock off. It was repaired with small wooden dowels and repainted quite well by a repairman in Reno. After some years, the crack line started to move, and I got afraid of it and sold it, as no more necks were coming out of Kalamazoo by then. I'm from Indianapolis and have seen and played Wes Montgomery's old L5 ( with his name inlaid in the pickguard- repaired after surviving being in a house fire ). He learned to play with his thumb because his landlady lived upstairs, and he had to try to play quietly to "keep from bothering her"... can you imagine? It's the truth though. G
ood luck!
One major difference is the neck scale length.
The Herb Ellis, I'm pretty sure, is the same as the ES-175 with a 24.75 inch scale.
I have a '74 Howard Roberts (same burgundy color as yours), and it's a 25.5 inch scale (same as an L5), which I love! The longer scale length gives the strings a tighter sound, under more tension.
I swear the oval sound hole make a huge difference.
What do you think?
BTW, I disabled the midrange knob completely on mine.
Oh, and nice playing by the way!
You have an excellent feel. I genuinely enjoyed listening to and watching you play.
I have a Gibson Howard Roberts Custom like that and I can’t seem to get it Mellow enough with Medium strings so I’m going to go with 13 gauge flat wounds! Just hand a fret job and it glides beautifully! I’m playing out of a Fender Blues Jr. tube amp so I should be able to mellow it out with heavier strings! 🤞🏻yours sounds great!
I like the look and crispness of the Howard Roberts.
Because of the Covid-19 lockdown, I had time to uncase my guitar and the two books of yours (pictured in frames on your wall) , I opened them are read them again after many years. They are still great, packed with useful, timesless information. I'll stop now b/c this is "Thank You" note is getting too long.
Thank you for you kind note.
Excellent comparison. Thank you.
Both guitars are great. For my eras, I prefer the Howard Roberts. It doesn’t hurt that it looks beautiful.
I'm a big Herb Ellis fan but, I actually like the warmer darker tones of the Howard best. And you are right. It is a beautiful guitar
Wow the tone and sound of the Howard Robert’s is awesome…that is my pick clearly.
Rich, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how tone is affected on these two particular guitars with regard to the location of the pickup relative to the end of the fingerboard. I recall the Ibanez Joe Pass model being criticized for sounding too thin, as a result of moving the pickup closer to the bridge, due to a couple of added frets, in the production guitars, over that originally contemplated.
Both gorgeous and fantasy sounding!
Both are gorgeous guitars- I liked the Howard Roberts model best
Both guitars are great for 'thrash metal' :-). Beautiful guitars and nice playing :-). Personally, I'd go for the Howard Roberts :-).
Thank you for uploading.
I need a guitar like that Herb Ellis Gibson!
Those were beauts, especially the HR Model, but it might have an Ebony Fretboard There was a choice offered, and it was a long Scale neck 25-1/2" I believe. Thanks for your Vids.
Ott.
Great demo comparison, always wanted the Howard Roberts model. I play an L4 I have had for 20 plus years. Would love to see you play a Howard Roberts Fusion model
I have owned an HR Fusion for nearly 30 years. For the $$, an excellent guitar, but it has generally flown below most players’ radar. It will hang with more expensive, better known axes. It also is an attractive looking instrument.
I have a 1968 sunburst Epiphone Howard Roberts - precursor to the Gibson remake. It is my A #1, my true love. It is a top shelf guitar IMHO. At that time Gibson had bought Epiphone, but they had not yet moved the Epi manufacturing or lowered the craftsmanship to be the lower line Gibson yet. In fact, although the Epi Howard Roberts was less ornate than the later Gibson, it was a better crafted instrument. You can hear the difference immediately since the Epi was a solid carved top (vs. the Gibson being the lower cost/higher production laminate top). The Epi did not have the 3rd midrange knob which is a constant source of confusion and complaint from Gibson owners. That midrange knob is a bit tricky to manage. I've been told, but haven't confirmed that it's not a midrange knob but a midrange band-pass filter, so it is essentially a moving dip or maybe a moving peak across a broad mid frequency range rather than just a swelling midrange peak that a midrange knob would be. Anyway, the Epi and the GIbson feel and sound different, with the Epi providing a more woody, slightly darker sound with beautiful bell-like tones - a little more toward the Jim Hall tone maybe. This is all from my own recollection comparing mine to a Gibson, but have never compared the two directly - never had both in front of me at the same time. I wish Rich would do a video comparing an Epi Roberts to a Gibson Roberts!
Hey Robert! Thank for your comment! I have done a comparison on the Howard Roberts Epiphone Vs Howard Roberts Gibson, you can watch it here: th-cam.com/video/ocqgEUIXLv0/w-d-xo.html
I totally agree with all of your comments and did not know that about that 3rd knob. You are right though about the confusion behind it. It is not just a tone knob but it was hard to find information on exactly what it was. Your theory makes sense though, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge!
@@RichSeversonGuitar Thanks, Rich! I'll definitely check out that video! Cheers!
Have a Herb Ellis of the same vintage. Fitted with a Bare Knuckle Manhattan P90. Great sounding guitar
Good amp tips, thank you
Hi Rich, in my opinion the HR has a clearer tone, the HE is a ittle mor muddy and darker tonewise.
But the the Herb Ellis is nicer :-)
Very nice comparison.
no doubt HR model is the best by far good work Rich
Howard Robert is kind of different guitar, very interesting one. Especially I like this feature of middle tone control
The Epiphone by FAR!
I love both guitars, but I'll admit I'm biased towards the HR model because I own one just like it, and HR was the best player ever. It just nails that tone I was looking for. Great demo, really enjoyed it!
I like the brightness of the Howard Roberts. To me it's a real obvious difference. Don't know any of the technicals. Just what I'm hearing. Robert sounds much brighter and clearer.
I agree. To my ears, it’s a more balanced tone across all strings.
Thank you Rich! you da man!
I believe the H R has a 25 1/2 scale versus the 24 3/4 H E. That’s going to make the H R sound and play/balance differently
Also a difference in the feel with the larger scale length requiring slightly higher string tension (for equal pitch/tuning). Some people compensate by using lighter gauge strings on the longer scale instrument, particularly if they bend a lot. I'm guessing that with equal gauge strings the longer scale length instrument will be a bit louder (all other things like body size/shape/bracing/etc. being identical), due to the higher string tension. The bridge being one-piece ebony on the HR vs. multi-part steel Tunomatic on the HE will also affect the sound - perhaps the sustain and for sure the tone, with a woodier tone with the ebony.
What is your amp ???
So what is the potential feedback difference between the f hole design and the round hole HR model? I would think that the round hold would have greater feedback issues, but I've never played a jazz box with a round hole, so I have no experience with that.
Good question I never had either of them loud enough to feedback. I use to play a 60's HR and never had feedback. The quilter isn't voiced like a Fender so I don't think there would be a problem
Certain amps have feedback knobs. Roland Acoustic Chorus 100, for example. An amp that I recommend you plop some place and leave it there.
They are both great. But I love the Herb model!!
Thanks for watching and commenting, Dean!
Both are great guitars…the Elis is warmer and the Howard is clearer…and with the extra tone control, i would say it is more versatile…The Howard is smaller and nicer looking..so I would go with the Howard !
H.R Forever!
I have a 74 HR, sun bleached so lots of salmon pink colours, put a Vox bridge onto the Gibson saddle, clearer tone, the inductor should be fitted to every guitar, lovely ceramic shawbucker, one of the most difficult guitars to construct by Gibson, the craftsmen didn't enjoy making them. And probably not that profitable. I run heavy flats, think I might go lighter, was wondering what gauge was used here on the HR. Anyway mines a keeper.
I believe mine is a '74 also...a definite keeper.
A wooden bridge is always preferred for this type of guitar. This gives a softer tone.
I like the Howard Roberts guitar. Although I’m sure it’s a feedback machine
Is there any way to get one of those Epiphone Howard Roberts?
Here's a link www.guitarcollege.net/for-sale.html
The HR sounds a bit more defined in all registers. Both are fine guitars.
For me, the Herb Ellis it's warmer and sounds more like a jazz guitar. Of course everybody's taste is different. Don't hear much difference with the mid-range controls on the Roberts guitar
Rich you could make a 2x4 sound jazzy. Thanks for the comparison.
The placement of the pickup and sound hole shape do alot
10:50 What is the song's name ?
I think the main difference between the ES 175 and that Es 165 guitar is it that guitar has a higher finish quality there’s a lot of variation on theES1 75.
Tell you what, Rich, you keep the one you like better. Send me the other one. I’ll be perfectly happy.
The Howard Roberts has more projection but a bit tinny to my ear as compared to the Herb Ellis, which is as mellow as 30 year old brandy ...
The tone is all about your flatwounds !
The howard Roberts has more delicate sound more acoustic
At last! A guitarist who is a MUSICIAN reviews a product.
Thank you
LOOKS LIKE GIBSON PUT AN EPIPHONE STYLE HEADSTOCK ON THE HOWARD ROBERTS.
I bought a hr for 475$ in 1979, nice guitar but too narrow neck
I picked up a faux les Paul with jumbo frets. I don't care for them at all. Medium is more like it.
The Roberts model looks like it was just slapped together .PU is too close to the sound hole .Although it has a wonderful tone. But a great guitarist like yourself can make anything sound good .
Better the howard roberts