Dude I'm glad you bring up the word "Groupthink" because It's true, Druckman Fell from grace when he Was following Anita Sarkesian & her Feminist echo chamber, I know nowadays some activists hate Critism & Demonizes anybody who does, that's what happened Druckman Catered to people in echochambers & it honestly bit him in the ass hard ☠️☠️
Jordan Kuttler Neil Druckmann is a genius in his own ways. Many ideas he came up for the Last of Us (not the sequel lmao) were great as he is the one that got the ball rolling but many ideas were not like the unnecessary revenge subplot. He needs somebody like Bruce Straley to balance him out and to keep that ball on a set path while creating gameplay systems to support the feel of the story/world. They were the perfect ying/yang of Neils creativeness and Straleys filter. Once Straley left, the success of Part 2 depended on him being man enough to put his pride aside and to learn from his mistakes by accepting his bad ideas were shot down for a reason......... And apparently he isn’t and the ball ended up smashing right into Joel’s head
@@cutiepie6796 To be fair. Even geniuses can be complete fools at times. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Many have missed things that were very important because they were too focused on that one thing you are good at. I'm not saying he is or isn't a genius. I don't know him. But he does have a lot of potential. In his case he made the mistake of not keeping someone around with the power and spine to look him in the eyes and tell him something won't work. He chose not to recognize his limitations and faults. A bad choice.
So Neil is somebody that doesn’t learn from his mistakes. He made Last of Us 2 not off substance but pride. Hopefully Bruce Straley will return one day to the industry to support and filter somebody else’s ideas.
Its ok if he believes in his stories but he shouldn't have used them in an existing IP. Its the same thing with Star Wars and Rian Johnson and probably several other IPs nowadays. No one's coming up with new IPs anymore.
What’s sad is that red dead redemption 2’s story did so much better at the revenge aspect of things and it wasn’t even the center focus of the game! The focus was redemption and the revenge was still written so much better
I finished playing rdr2 right before playing tlou2 and the difference in my emotions were wild 😂, after rdr2 I felt like I just lived this epic adventure and thought I was about to live a better one with tlou2 but nope
I said this to one of my friends, after Bruce left there was nobody left to tell Niel no and those who did got fired like some of the game tasters who voiced their opinion and thought the story were bad Neil got ride of them.. but this should be a lesson for Niel, his idea for a revenge plot was shitty in college and is still shitty today.
Yeah men true af, the revenge story's are repeat so so many times, that is frustating to see it again in a game with so much potential, like obvously in the end or she kill her or she forgive her, there was no between, but we all now this shit so well, like the purge 2 and shit.
Solid work. The references are all there too, so it's clear you're not just talking out of your ass. I had a feeling Neil was only successful because he was kept in check, but never really bothered to look into it.
I think every good writer needs someone to help edit their ideas. Not to compare Neil with George Lucas, but something kinda similar happened with the prequels when Lucas surrounded himself with yes men.
@@Sev3617 I totally bought the darth Jar Jar theory not going to lie. I mean it could be good editing, but the videos I watched on it were pretty convincing lol
See that would be a great point except none of that is any more true than what I said. It's all conjecture and speculation. No one knows exactly why she left, and there are plenty of people who say what I said.
Isn't that most successful people? Do you think all genius ideas came from one person ? You don't know Neil as a person too judge him like that, this is just another attempt on hating on TLOU2.
It’s a tragedy. When you look back at the first reveal of the game and witness the overwhelming excitement people had it’s sad to see how it all turned out.
Agreed!!! Looking back at the past 10 years of me gaming only 2 times did I become obsessively hyped for a game which for me was Mgs5 The Phantom Pain and The Last Of Us 2 and in both cases for me the disappointment was due to the storylines. I know I Know most will say it’s gameplay that really only matters but imo that’s just not always the case.
guys, it's simple. We've just to use some logic. Joel could have died, but in a different way. If Druckmann wanted to kill Joel because of an ambush, then he should have written a situation in which Joel is ambushed by SOMEONE HE TRUSTED. That could have been the only way to kill Joel off because of the "ambush matter". Because there is absolutely NO WAY, that a survivor who survived for 25 years by killing innocent people doing the hunter, being a smuggler and a successful self taught soldier who could kill ON HIS OWN WHOLE ARMIES could have taken his guard down just because of 4 years of relative "peace". 4 years of a realtive more quiet life cannot make him forget 20 years of fucking survival experience.
@@pugasaurusrex8253 and those four years are surely not "peaceful", because Joel goes out very often to deal with other people and infected. So it means he didn't lose his judgemental skills, his combat skills, and his attention to potential danger.
@@pugasaurusrex8253 In a good story writing, if Joel was now more trusting, YOU NEED TO ESTABLISH IT IN THE STORY BEFORE THE ACTUAL DEATH HAPPENS. Maybe like make us go with him on patrol and he does something very stupid and someone else comments how he is not that attentive anymore as he used to be. But without establishing a change in his character, this happens. So are we just supposed to assume? This was bad and lazy writing.
h h EXACTLY. IF THEY WERE GOING FOR THAT, THEY WOULD HAVE TO ESTABLISH IT PREVIOUSLY ALL IT WOULD’VE TAKEN WAS ONE SCENE, I don’t get what it’s hard to understand
She is a very talented person. I wish we had gotten to see what she was working on with her story based star wars game that got cut by EA right before a playable build was ready....
@@saucytendies An article came out a out how far they got. And they had quite a bit made. There was a segment where you are running from a ATST down alleyways where thanks to Frostbite the ATST is just destroying entire buildings. The article was on Eurogamer I think?
@@WllKiedSnake yeah I remember an interview with her said it was almost to the point of a playable build. I can't believe EA just scrapped the idea bc "story games don't make money" What a bunch of idiots.
I think Neil undeniably has the ability to create great ideas and produce amazing writing but it seems he definitely needs people around him to help cut and mold certain ideas.
Agree. He totally reminds me of Tetsuya Nomura. People praised him since he is one of the big writers that was involved in Final Fantasy VII but people forget that other people were also involved in that game. Yoshinori Kitase to name one. Therefore, when Nomura had the opportunity to create his own franchise. It was messy. A fun game but a messy story. Of course, I am talking about the Kingdom Hearts franchise.
H hi is hilarious is it that he spent YEARS having the same idea shut down over and over, and just when he finally get the creative control to do his story, it’s panned and condemned as one of the worst stories and he STILL defends himself and his story.
@@saucytendies hhh c'mon the end to the first was clearly not satisfying, Joel lying to Ellie, all built on crimes and a huge lie...you guys are blind.
@@TheTariqibnziyad Which crimes? Operating a 14yo without her consent? Bombing the ZQ and Fedra usually hurting civilians more? I'm sorry but you didn't get the ending. Did you even see Ellie's face while Joel was lying to her? She is perfectly conscious about his lie, she wants to scream at him and she is holding tears in that moment, but she doesn't call him out cause she understood he did it for her.
he's a psycho. They should've just kept joel alive or let him die a heroic death (saving ellie from bandits in an epic fight or something) not by him getting tortured to death.
My guess is someone in ND was still telling him not to go through with those story ideas but he didn't listen because he was the boss. Remember when the game's story got leaked?
I think the leaker was an independent contractor who was in a payment dispute, so not someone who directly worked at ND but yes obviously someone was unhappy enough to leak basically the entire plot of the game and hours of cutscenes. Could be there was a group of employees fighting this game till the day it was released!
Pretty much what I think happened yeah...I really wish he had made a new IP for this revenge story, its so disconnected from the first game it didn't even feel like the same franchise I just don't get it
@@saucytendies yups i bet its not gonna be successful if it was a stand alone game cuz only a few people like that exotic type of story. almost on par with the mixed review indie game on steam. the fact the he used the fame of the first game as a leverage, screams how crap he knows story is but did it anyway. no wonder most scenes are so forced and absurd he was trying to connect the dots and hoping for it to make sense.
@@arnoldsumaganggmvmaster2081 @SaucyTendies The worst part is that the whole thing is so poorly written even if you want a dark and torturing story. I have seen so many folks online claim we are only upset because the story is dark and we can't handle it, and the response that it tends to rile up is " Not true, because I've read/watched/played the following stories like Berserk, naoki urasawa's Monster anime series, Fate Zero, Song of Saya etc" , basically all fictional stories with dark settings, premises and really "messed up" narratives, but the difference is that alot of these stories i just picked outta the Twitter replies hat is all stories that have good set up, developments, and endings that have a thematic element to it, and it knows how to develop and stick to its themes eloquently. Last of Us 2 just stitches a bunch of parts together that just tortur after torture that is relentless and doesn't really say anything. When someone dies via torture or insanity in Song of Saya , it is saying something about the character who is dying, and the main protag and the main monster of the story, and it is build up well and executed at the right point of the story. When someone dies in LOU2, its just shock value and thats pretty much it. But Nooo, do the fans of LOU2, we should just got play a Barbie game.
@@kairili well the TLOU2 fanboys at this point are just brain dead. you cant reason with them. and i was actually debunking each one for the past month now (i know a waste of time) and they just dont reply cuz they ran out of excuses. basic logic that they cant seem to understand tbh. another thing is that they all have same excuses for it. joel dead cant handle it etc BS. cant handle brutality BS. stuff like that. i mean they are too arrogant why not join the army and brag about brutality while they are at it. these fake fans man they are more annoying than haters.
@@kairili bottomline is there is no need for debate if the plot is diffrent. everyone here is just arguing wether its realistic or not. when they should start asking why was a post apocalypse not a survival game about the infected and other survivor factions. but about revenge wildwest style red dead redemption. something to think about for the fanboys.
It makes much more sense now to know that Neil was obsessed with the revenge plot. Though, it makes the revenge plot in Last of Us 2 less genuine. I'm glad that same idea didn't work for the first game.
Sometimes ideas are rejected at first, and later edited to blossom! Like J.K Rowling, and Steven King, but now I just feel bad for Druckman. Because he didn't have a team that could really challenge and criticize him into brilliant work
Because they made the game that they wanted to make, not the game that the fan base would like. They ignored their customers which is never a good policy. This reminds me of the Gillette razor ad...
Mr Gao I actually love that though. I love when a creator really knows what story they want to tell and really pour their heart and soul into it. That’s just me though
I mean, a lot of people that played it think it’s great, myself included. I think it’s a gripping and compelling narrative, but I do think it’s not for everyone and no shade if you don’t like it
I don't have a problem with the story being dark and that Joel was brutally murdered. I have a problem with how it was constructed and presented, and that they try to force you to like Abby. They kill Joel awkwardly and too soon. They could've created a chemistry between Ellie, Joel, and Abby, so it wouldn't feel forced, and then, in the middle of the game, they could kill him. That would be a shocker and make more sence.
💯Agreed!! They should’ve at least given us a more playtime with Joel and still have patrolling moments together with Ellie and then come across Abby and we would get to know her a bit..but NOT be forced to play her yet. Let the story marinate a bit and let us enjoy more Joel and Ellie time until the inevitable.
tita adorno if I was writing it I would’ve had Joel get killed by Abby and Ellie get kidnapped and then we play as Tommy trying to find Ellie as the WLF are trying to find a vaccine
this is one of the best videos i have seen for this game. everyone does reviews of the final product. But not everyone taks about what truly happend behind the scenes and the decicion making that led to the final product in regard. well done! bravo
Because we don't know much. What we know is that everyone involved in the narrative can say something if he thinks something is wrong. So no, it's not a dictatorship. They changed story bits all the time. Of course Druckman and Gross have the last say but it's far more open than Kojima for example
It is frustrating. Absolutely devastating, this game. Broke my heart, crushed my soul. Enough that if I see his name on anything new, I'll pass. Thanks for the great video!
Mhh maybe a prequel can save the situation who know. We are still talking about ND, this guys are amazing, hopefully the next time they will learn by their mistakes. PS. I like the game because is a good story, it's only that as a sequel it doesn't works.
@@jongcena2555 This game should've been just a completely different story and maybe, MAYBE then it would somehow work out. Still I wouldn't be a fan of such angst, I'm too old for it, but lots of frustrated teens probably would love this bloodfest.
@@realswobby exactly, without the maybe. The problem of this game is the Abby part, i mean it's fucking fun to play as her, but this game is tlou, not The last of Abby. At most let us play as her for just few hours, not half of the game or make another game/DLC about her story. The story of this game is unbelievable, try to imagine it without the 1st chapter, it's amazing. But as a sequel not very much, from a person who loved the game.
@@jongcena2555 Sorry but I'm not amazed by this story, even if it would stand on its own. Too pretencious. Everyone has different experiences and for me, I think I experienced in my life this kind of ideas in different media (horror books, dark anime stories) enough times already so the ideas in TLOU 2 really don't shock me (positively) nor impress me anymore. The "circle of violence" is so overused. Fighting as Abby, especially with the infected ones, is enjoyable indeed but I didn't care about her story and I was bored and irritated by these cutscenes. Constantly feeling like the game tries to brainwash me because "look, see, she's a human, she saves kids and she pets doggos, she deserves to be liked too!". Like, okay, I have my brain and I can judge characters on my own. But the game sadly doesn't let you judge them like you really want.
The ending of the game made no sense, at that point Ellie was injured sick and running on hatred and adrenaline, she went through how many people to get to Abby and then let her go.
I think they were banking on the player feeling conflicted about killing her, but they utterly failed at making me empathize with her so it just feels so dumb.
I think they made it to have another theme going for the game which is forgiveness. Since Ellie remembered the fact that she told Joel that she's going to try to forgive him for his actions. But tbh I feel like it would've been better if they used Abby AND Ellie to show that by giving BOTH of them more time with Joel to figure out whether or not they'll be able to forgive him. It doesn't really matter to me if Joel dies. I was ready to cry. But his death in the second game was just too much that it made me angry rather than sad.
@@saucytendies plus, they introduce the forgiveness theme pretty much at the end of the game. so we see Ellie's flashbacks figuring out what happened in the hospital and Joel's lie. Joel meant a lot for her, just remember the first game, or the Birthday flashback. However, I find it a bit too much that even after 2 years, she figured out everything at the age of 17, she was still angry at Joel. I can't hold a grudge that long, especially not against somebody I love and care about. I find it highly unbelievable that they couldn't talk to each other for 2 years. Now I know that Ellie blames herself for pushing Joel away, but still 2 years is a long time in a small community, where you are forced to meet and see each other every single day. I don't know. I am probably much more forgiving than most people. Overall I don't think this was a bad story. I think there is a good story buried in there, but it could have been told better. Just a few points I would change: Joel death: Abby should have saved Joel instead, thus giving Joel and Tommy a reason to trust her at least. Or if they want to make Abby more likeable, show her inner conflict that she just got saved by the man, she swore to kill. And her friends would push her into killing him anyway. Even after the deed they should have shown more regret and inner conflict within her to make me feel that she is a human being and she at least regrets her decision of killing Joel the way she did. If forgiveness is such a big theme, introduce it earlier in the story. you have 8 characters to work with plus Joel. Ellie is mad at all of them. So there are plenty of opportunities to show Ellie's willingness to forgive them. This whole, "I won't hurt you if you tell what I wish to know" is not forgiveness, it is just a threat, nothing more. Now I know they show how broken Ellie becomes after she tortured Nora, or after she realizes Mel's pregnancy, but I don't think that's enough for a forgiveness theme to work at the end. Because despite these acts she still chooses revenge. The Joel and Ellie final flashback is also to little too late, I think. Even though it is a very touching scene, and I love Troy's acting in that scene. (He nailed those lines.) With a little bit more emphasis on Ellie's forgiving nature, the ending would make a lot more sense. But that still won't solve my main issue with this story. That Ellie loses absolutely everything. Now I am not against a dark, gritty tragedy. I think a tragic story can be really profound and and can serve as a warning, for example Oediopus Rex, he is running from fate only to fulfill it at the end, hoping that maybe his children won't have to suffer the way he did, or Javer's tragedy when he realizes at the end that even a convict can be redeemed in Les Miserables, or Rome and Juliet's tale where through their tragedy, the families finally see that their conflict has to end otherwise it will only lead to more misery and death. Anyway the idea is that all these stories show a glimpse into a hopeful future. If that was the intention with this games ending, where Ellie leaves the guitar at the window and she is walking away defeated and broken then it was badly conveyed I believe. I don't need much, I don't need a whole chapter, but I think losing her two fingers was a bit too much for me. All of these show me that Neil was committed to the very end, that Ellie is going to kill Abby. For that, she is going to pay the price, losing everything that was once precious to her. This way the story makes perfect sense. But out of nowhere they introduce a forgiveness theme to emphasize that she didn't lose her humanity yet. Well it is not a bad idea, in fact I love this idea, but once again it was out of left field to be believable for Ellie's character to act the way she did at the end. To finish with Ellie's own words, "After all we have been through, after all I have done, it can't be for nothing"
The worst part is that its not even a bad game. It just has bad writing. The gameplay is so good the developers themselves did a great job, it's just such a cliché and contrived story made by incompetent writers.
I see the connection. I remember that it was intended for the first game that Tess would catch Joel and torture him, but that they said no to this writing. Bruce Straley was really a genius and that Druckmann did not see that what was intended for the first game and was dismissed and insisted on bringing this to part 2 is strange. I mean the idea for the first game was a success so why did Druckmann choose to make this U-turn to revive an idea that demonstrably would not succeed by pushing back to what contributed to the success?
It could a few different reasons I think. From letting hype for himself go to his head, to being bitter about these ideas being cut out or so simply not caring if it pleased the original fans. I doubt we will ever know for sure tbh
SaucyTendies I think you have a point about the bitterness. But at the same time it seems to me that the Naughty Dog creators of Last of US thought the game would flop. I think they said this in an interview after the success. Druckmann would try his idea for a new game and not ruin Last Of US like this.
I did see some comments from developers allegedly hoping LOU2 would flop so that Naughty Dog would stop doing such horrible crunches, but I didn't see any interviews. If you find those again I would love to look at them!
SaucyTendies Sorry I was not clear enough. I meant that the first game developers did not believe in the success that occurred for the game. Therefore, it was nothing but disrespectful of Druckmann against the fans to abandon the theme. Regarding part 2, I understand the developers. At Joel's death scene I became dumb. Because I remember the trailer where Joel came behind Ellie and I thought he would be in the game.
Ohhhh I get what you are saying now :) I thought Joel would die at some point during the game (end), but I didn't think they would just blatantly lie to use in the advertising
I've been around authors 30 years_ its not just the bad idea_ it's the story execution failure. Yes_ we have to have people who will be brutal when the story is taking shape. You must have the big red marker person who will make you give it life or kill it quickly. 😁 The story is what you care about rising or falling. There are best selling authors who are indulged in vanity projects that aren't mass appealing. However_ this comes only after much celebrity. All companies and media (particularly Hollywood) have declared themselves inside industry pleasers, so you can't expect they are in touch with real players. Look, we had authors in our co op who took no advice, did no edit rounds and wrote adults like 14 year olds_ no growth _ just emotional melodrama. There are people who gobble that up and turn it into fan fiction. The Buffy days were the epitome of bad writing. The audience changed and so books did_ they were YA drama between the covers. I retired soon after lol. ND is a product both of out of touch Hollywood and stunted growth__ the immature writer surrounded by yes people cannot perfect his or her craft. No one can without trusted folk who tell them what the real world consumes and honestly__ no one who wrote an old rejected story carrys it around to revive😒 we had authors with 600 pages of pure drek that they would insist on self publishing _ it didn't get better_ it didn't work. That's why you trust editors. If he wanted a revenge plot he could have done it a million ways__ and not used characters as tools, devices and props. That's just my take as a retired writer of 50 novels in all genres. I wrote under 4 pen names from 99 to 2011__ and ran a publishing co op_ Many people like TLOF2 and ignore plot holes _forgotten characters arcs _ bad dialogue and lack of pacing. It doesn't matter to them. That's fine. BUT_The story criticisms are legit for people who liked #1. There's everything missing story _ character, pacing, and plot for them. Its not difficult to think up an idea outline.... The work and skill in writing comes from fleshing out the story and staying consistent as well as engaging. Character driven stories cannot stand by bells and whistles_ in this case game play violence fillers or side stories. Introduction of plot threads like_ abby revenge_ would have to be so central that even your main is aware of being hunted....it would be a POV plot point you felt through Joel. The execution of ideas is not a fully fleshed story_ it's scenarios. And you don't do that at the expense of depth. It is lazy, unskilled, and in this case a satisfaction of personal ego. He needed someone_ anyone_ to at least point out the basic pacing and consistently. As a gamer since pong_ I am disappointed in THOU2. As an author the story flaws are embarrassing_ and an insult to the craft. As a person_ I can see ND as someone who entered the marketplace to produce products that sell to gamers. So though I think critics can stick to taking the game to task. I disagree with the defence of it by ND in the words he chooses. I was in the market world wide_ you create a product and guarantee it to your customers for $$. No stories are not babies once the author puts $$ value on it. And __ the selling of series is dependant on the #1 game success and so to insult, chastise or claim some god status over the story is at best disingenuous. We all know the money a customer spends has a built in expectation. To claim ignorance to that is being deliberately tone deaf. In the end, he made his vanity project_with the $$ behind him, fans of #1 _ and co_ gave him power of control that allowed for it to be personal rather than commercial and mass market friendly. The question is__can gamers accept that the industry caters to the group rather than the mass market customers. And in truth, we know from movies, TV and sports__ the $$ will be behind the message and messenger. The lack of skill, talent, or attention to craft, doesn't matter so long as the right philosophy is presented. At his level of success, he can afford to live in whatever reality he creates around the criticism of the game. He does that at the expense of trust by the customer. (Shrug) He doesn't mind writing off half the fan base. That's something future customers$$ have to remember. The rest are and will be fine with it. It's not his hobby to indulge in once he takes someone's money_ fully aware of slight of hand advertising to sell it as something else. It was all badly done _ many things were put in motion to deceive the fan and quash the legit reviews. That's not a great way to do business for anyone. Pride and ego in a competitive and ruthless market ... It shows how ugly the biz is. And it's that way in most professions. We older authors had long relationships with fans that we valued above all else.
@@saucytendies I'm happily retired. I wrote historical fiction: medieval, Recency and western, urban fantasy, and southern gothic _lol. It's fine. I used pen names for obvious reasons_ I wanted each story to stand alone and me be invisible mostly,... It's the way novel writers often worked in order to be prolific and avoid the ego trip__ we loved the storytelling. and... it made it easier to retire me and the novels later. I left at a good time. Back in the day 2005_ I did some manuals for new writers on character development and pacing for some on line publishers. It's not something (action) writers can always pull off. We called it_ Everyone dies and who cares syndrome. 😁 TLOU did that show_ don't tell_ both in action & subtle ways... I own it on ps 4 and 3. It is that good. #2 just failed in a hot mess way for me. You showed great insight in your summation. 😁 understanding motive is done that way__ looking into the root of things and work attitude, the way someone works is how they view that finished work. I'm disappointed not to have a good new TLOU game to play this fall& winter__ and I think your take on the situation is helping a lot of us move on after years of expectation. Very well presented. Have a good one.
Interesting video. It's clear now - Abby is Neil's Tess 2.0 He just couldn't let go of a story concept. He wanted to move that piece forward so much - he couldn't see the destruction it would cause. He clearly needs someone else to check and balance his ideas. And all this time Druckmann has probably been holding a grudge that his Zombie Apocalypse game isn't purely all his concept. Other creators edited it - to make it better
@@jordandennis6794 Ah yes, of course. Neil Druckmann wrote the entirety of The Last of Us 2, developed it, polished it, finished and shipped it, all in less than two years, all because RDR2 came up with the concept of revenge first and Neil Druckmann was inspired by it.
Hiya, two years later felt like watching this video especially with how TLOU is back in public consciousness and got to say love how you sourced all your points with evidence and I feel completely convinced of your groupthink perspective and how TLOU 2 ended the way it did
@@saucytendies he knows he desrves it. No one cant be that blind, but he ultimately chose to ignore al negative critisism whether it is constructive or destructivo. For example he could have said something of the skill up review wich praises almost everything except mechanics and story, giving credit where it due. But he then just cherry picked the ones that dont give any flaws to the game or if they do they have to be Minor. Kinda feeling a yanderedev vibe from him now that I think about it
@@trevordicenso2262 he acts as if people dont like it due to the not-so-happy ending and killing joel. TBH, everyone could assume that joel was gonna dir in this game... And the story-telling is pretentious, it acts as if it showed/did/touched every aspect of its story, but it didnt .
I agree with what you're saying Abby is a good character but not in the context of Last of Us 2. It should have been an entirely different story. You can't mix love with hate.
yeah i agree. abby is a fucking psychopath several times in the story. but she's also seen to be a nice person. and it conflicts to much and it doesn't work
joel is not a psycho in the first game. he doesn't threaten to kill a woman that was only protecting her friend and when finding out she's pregnant, becomes happy about it and revels in doing it. he kills to protect ellie, not to hurt other people for a stulid revenge plot. the only time he's a psycho is the firefly lab, but he was driven by rage and fear, not enjoyment
@@kams8759 Abby being "excited" about killing Dina was because she reverted back to her old ways of being hellbent on revenge seeking catharsis. Ellie did just kill her best friend in the entire world and his pregnant gf that just wanted to leave. Lev reminded her that she's changed. Joel kneecapped a person looking for Ellie and killed both (when neither posed a threat because disabled and tied up). Used to fake sick to capture ppl and steal their supplies. Tortured people probably a lot. And killed a whole platoon of people in a hospital.
Ok so Joel's awkward death scene was only *ONE* of the big writing mistakes, let me enlighten you: IT IS NOT BECAUSE HE DIED BRUTALLY THAT IT PISSED OFF PEOPLE. Maybe stupid people who has no objective points of view but when you think about it for two second it doesn't take a genius to realize what I'm about to say. There is a scene in the first game where Joel shots without even hesitating on a person faking to be injured. Why? Because he has the experience and the MORAL VALUE OF SAVING HIS OWN LIFE WITHOUT TAKING UNECESSARY RISKS. The second game has nothing of that because Cuckman wrote it and disregard almost the entirety of its foundation. That was one point out of dozens.
Bruh tbh how did they expect joel to die? Im all for "everything can happen" but the way joel was found is absurd and as if thats not enough the way he gets lead to a group of ppl just outside his camp and lets out his name without a second thought jus blows my mind
@@matthewelias6233 why does everyone says he told his name without hesitation? Tommy did. Because they were panicking and trying to get Abby to trust them so they could flee together. And after that in the Lodge of course they didn't expect to be killed when you just saved one of their peoples life.
Good job man. Now I understand why Niel fu*kt up the story. But finally it’s very sad. Joel was for me, the greatest character after Arthur Morgan! But Arthur died after he safe John! Joel died for nutthin man. Only for a golf simulator scene.
I feel so bad for Amy Hennig. She’s like that kid that nobody wants to partner with during a lab or project in school, even though she has some of the most excellent ideas. She keeps getting ousted from companies and getting her ideas scrapped. It’s a serious injustice and shame.
SaucyTendies yeah I remember seeing the little snippet of footage of a guy in a black cloak walking out of a cantina on Mos Eisley and some stormtroopers walking by. I was stoked to see what it was about
Bloody hell, people were telling Neil to tone the really dark stuff down for YEARS. If Bruce hadn't of left and worked his magic, to filter out Druckmann's bullshit then TLOU2 would of been a very different game. It's such a shame, TLOU- one of the best games of all time, with our beloved Joel and Ellie, nothing will change that, not even a dogshit sequel.
To be fair, he did hire Halley Gross after Straley left for that exact reason (there are multiple interviews where he admits hes darker and needed Gross to help lighten the mood). I think the good intention was there but any doubt was lost in the studios high reputation. He even admitted that it was actually Gross's idea to kill off Joel in an interview w her and Greg Miller.
Every great writer needs an amazing editor. Someone to tell the writer "no". As a writer (amateur, fledgling, unpublished), the best work I've ever done is when someone has told me "no" to one of my ideas. I've done my best writing when having to rewrite something because, "this is stupid" or "this makes no sense". Such experiences have made me value negative criticism of my work more than positive. I still don't like to be told I'm terrible or did a bad job, but I listen and try to correct it once I stop foaming at the mouth with anger over it. It's the most valuable information I can receive and I use it to do better. Neil is the sort of guy who never learned that his ideas need refinement. Great writers have worlds in their head. They peak into other universes. But, even they realize that telling the story as they see it... doesn't make for a good story. Someone needs to be there to help edit the experience and refine it into its most pure form of entertainment. If a writer doesn't have that... they quickly go off the deep end and make sub-par work without understanding why. Someone needs to stand in the way of indulgences of the artist.
"I really wished I could've loved it" is the only reasoning I could find to even finish the game in the first place. Was tempted to just look up the end of the "story" online, so I wouldn't have to keep torturing myself playing this master-piece of sht game. 6/10 would not play that sorry excuse of a "second part" again :'D
This is one aspect that lot of people forget about games studios, their staff members change over time. The internal team of Bioware's Mass effect 1 is almost entirely different of Mass Effect Andromeda's team. Same goes to Naughty Dog. A game studio is not an monolithical entity. and so their project ideas and quality changes, for better or worse ...
I think they should have gone all out to bring as much of the original team together for any sequel. Especially from the creative/narrative side. If they couldnt do that or they did manage to bring the old team together but couldnt agree on a narrative progression from part one. Then part 2 should never of happened
So basically this all comes down to that Neil can't take no for an answer. Also doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
I just look at it from the outside. The story design to me is a basic disrespect to the players. Neil had specific ideas of where he wanted to the story to go and the beats he wanted to hit, but he didn't factor in the $60 price tag and the 25 hour play time, or whether or not anyone thought either of those things were worth the story. Nor did he care how he marketed it to fans of the first game when he intended it for a completely different group. If he cared about making a worthwhile game, he needed people experienced with good game story design to make it worth playing through. They had a real opportunity to make a spectacular sequel - they certainly had the time. At this point I don't think anyone believes Neil cared about answering the fans' desire for what a good sequel would have been like - even if they would have been happily surprised. And with the beats he hit, it's pretty clear what basic group he wanted to speak to. And now, the people who feel let down are being told by the virtue signalers to have more empathy.
Give this man more subs! "Give me dat hat", zombie says " I have to stop you from killing Joel and save this franchise". Sorry if misquoted you, but you know what I'm talking about, that was hilarious man.
@@saucytendies I also couldnt stop laughing at that , I showed my brother and he also couldnt stop laughing , we were both in tears from that franchise joke😂😂😂👌
I hated the Abby part so much and the first thing that came to my mind was "Who thought about this? And did nobody at Naughty Dog say hey it might not be the best idea?" These questions stuck with me even long after I finished the game, but your video helped me understand. I still hate the Abby part but at least now I understand the thought process behind it. Great job! Hope more people could see this
Its crazy how Neil didnt listen. I remember reading an article where he spoke in an interview discussing how some people didnt find the graphic scenes of the seraphties tasteful and his response was essentially "I cant be sexist, I work with women (Gross?)." It really is sad how he doesnt take constructive criticism and that apparently tlou2 is the corrected, "nicer" version. I cant imagine what he had before.
I remember seeing articles about test groups not liking the game as well...what a disappointment. I can't believe they promoted him to co-president a couple days ago.
Imagine finally getting your complete and unique vision out there and everyone hates it. Im sure that would be the outcome for a lot of people and thats why movies video games and most other media are developed by a team! A team that can say to you if need be “hey that doesn’t make any sense in the story, i know this is your vision but its not gonna make sense to anybody else but you!” This is David Cage’s biggest issue when writing his stories as well. I think David and Neil would get along fabulously.
Druckmann: I have a plan this is a good one, let's make a revenge story with Joel being brutally murdered and then Ellie goes on a revenge quest killing everyone on her path except the actual murder of Joel because you have to built symphaty for her. Straley: I'm not sure that will work, Neil Druckmann: Oh Bruce, have some goddamn faith!
This story reminds me one of Cracked articles: a producer wanted badly to put a giant spider in one of his movies for years. But someone always took that idea down. Finally- he succeeded in Wild Wild West…
The big think about The Last of Us is the fact that it really didn't need a sequel. Now I know some would say what happened with Ellie and Joel lying to her. However for what we learned from the first game, there was no real guarantee that they could have found a cure if they sacrifice Ellie anyway. To me it would have been better if they just live happily ever after and had Abby in her own stand-alone game. There could have been cameos by Joel or Ellie but frankly it should have been a whole new story because the other story was too solid to mess with
so basically, even in the first game, if Neil Druckman took full creative control, the first game would have not garnered praise as we know, until no one is left to oppose Druckman's ideas, when you look at Druckman's early writing for Last of Us, it wasn't really anything special, then it came to life in Last of Us 2
Im new to your channel, Im glad that this was the first video of yours that I've watched. This is really well paced, and great amount of backstory that I had no clue about, that type of research really helps me understand how this all went down. Im crossing my fingers for that face reveal tho, for sure.
I'm glad Neil finally was able to make the game HE wanted, and I hope its clear to him now that his revenge story kinda sucks. TLOU isnt YOUR game neil, its ours. Thank you for making the first one, no doubt. But check your ego and listen to the people who challenge you more instead of people just trying to please you.
I don’t mind revenge plots and killing off main characters, I think it helps people get invested in the story. But I think because of how they shifted the focus and how sudden it was killed it. Maybe they should’ve waited to do that in the third game.
This also explains Neil's reaction after the game launched, essentially a flat out refusal to acknowledge any flaws with the game in the same way he kept pitching the same rejected idea without building in core feedback.
Saucy Tendies, you do excellent detective work. Watching your videos is like watching a professional prosecution attorney presenting a criminal case step-by-step.
This is a pretty good analysis. Great work with the footage and piecing together the evidence, it does point heavily to the idea that group think was something that happened at the ND studio.
Amazing video dude. Other people have spoken around these things in some other videos I’ve seen around youtube, but this is the best explanation and examination I’ve seen yet regarding the questionable environment of ND in the lead up to the release of TLOU2. Very well done.
Super insightful video dude. You answered so many of my questions regarding how this game's narrative came to be. Gahhh the situation is so frustrating, im replaying the first one and TLOU2 feels like it was written for a completely different franchise; so bloated and all over the place, it feels like a fanfiction. Neill was working with gold and he fumbled it big time.
I 100% agree with you because I felt the same with TLOU II. That game should have focused on Abby and Lev's story instead of having her murder Joel and then eat Ellie's fingers (Sheesh! Neil's such a weird guy....) The Last of Us could have been a platform for different stories of humanity in a broken world, but instead it became a divisive mess that's been milked dry with remasters and remakes of the same, exact game....
Thank you! I can't give you enough credit for this, to go back to see the history of the creator. He didn't really have real new ideas for this game. He just waited until he had the power to use the rejected ideas. Personally I wish this was Ellie out for revenge for Dina's death. They could have given us a powerfull love story in flashbacks as Ellie was on her hunt. Joel would join her quest, but get killed because of Ellie's wish for revenge. That is if you want the real dark theme and see Ellie alone in the end. I didn't even feel anything when they killed Joel the way they did, just was mad at the writer for doing it that way. Ellie, Tommy and Joel all went careless and basically blind just so they could get that over with quickly. Such an insult!
Seriously one of the most informative videos about TLOU 2! I didn't even notice the time passed :D Hope you channels grows and enjoy Ghost of Tsushima!
Haha thanks man! The soulsbornesekiro games are some of my favorites of all time. I can still remember thinking Solaire was for sure the banished son of Gwyn in DS1. I actually wear some of VaatiVidya's merchandise in some of my other videos now that I'm thinking about it lmao
Man, I am fascinated with the last of us 2 development, thankfully I was never a big fan of the franchise otherwise I would have been pissed! I just found very interesting how people find the game appealing narratively, not to say they cannot like it, but I feel there are a lot of very telling story "mistakes" or moments where the game is not sure what is trying to tell and I feel that in any other work of fiction no one would let it slide, let alone call it a master piece :/
Yeah I am pretty confused how some people totally ignore glaring issues and think this game is a masterpiece. You can still enjoy something objectively bad, but to call a basic revenge story with massive plot holes a “masterpiece” because it made you hate yourself while playing it is beyond me lmao
So it's not believable for Tess to travel across the country for revenge, with a large group of people, to track and kill Joel, but its believable for Abbey? Why? It's like they just wanted to ruin the story, the characters, and the entire game in general 🙄
I really like the story!! But how they wrote the story, and the order that events took place was kinda wack. As well as characters being boring and dialog being stale. Like when Yara discovers Lev after he was forced to kill his mom. They could have made that scene really hit home!! But for me, that scene, and the whole game, didn't make me feel anything besides disappointment.
I think with some major cuts and a lot of changes the overarching story could have worked if executed better. I agree they missed a big opportunity with Lev killing his mom. So many emotional scenes were left of screen. Where was Joel's funeral?? If Abby had shown any sort of remorse or conflict before killing Joel and given him a swift death I think people wouldn't have been more open to the idea of her not being a complete psychopath.
I agree with many of the comments here. From the perspective of someone who loves the game, it's refreshing to listen to your examination of how the studio arrived at such a divisive release. I'd avoided the leaks before my first play, but it was impossible to ignore the review bombing stories and controversy surrounding the plot. The easy assumption was that Joel would die, and when that time came, likeRegardless Aside from whether Joel deserved his comeuppance, I made a promise to myself to accept the story they wanted to tell and reserve judgement until after I finished it. There is only one first play-through, I thought, and before every nook and cranny in the environment, every cut scene and character moment, and every musical note became known by rote as they do with our favorite games, I wanted to revel in experiencing them for the first time. That was my focus. Yes, I squirmed when they put me in Abby's shoes and felt like I was slogging through her Day One. Yes, I reeled when I realized this was the second half of the game's run time and that she had her own skill tree and weapon upgrades. But I stuck with it and came to love her. I had to process the narrative for a couple of days afterward. Once I had it fully in my head, I couldn't wait to dive back in for another run. You hit a nail on the head when you said that her story with the WLF, Lev, Yara, and the Saraphites would've made an amazing stand-alone game. I see them as two games in one package with Joel as the connective tissue and catalyst for both. But what I found astonishing where half the audience was repulsed was how Joel's death was the beginning of her story, how everything unraveled from there, and how her arc stood in juxtaposition to Ellie's journey. I loved how it challenged the player's perception of killing and death in that world. It means nothing when we kill NPC #57 or dog #4, but when a character we care about gets killed, our love and attachment ascribe them higher value. That's life. That's love, family, and relationships. The game flips that by saying all the people Joel mowed through in the first game meant something to somebody else, too. Their intrinsic value should be weighed on merit, not familiarity, but that's not the way people work. The game shines for me upon repeated play-throughs. The overlapping layers, the unknown characters becoming known, the fact that Abby is Ellie's white whale while Ellie isn't even a blip on Abby's radar, the escalation of the futility of war by the time Abby and Lev leave the Seraphite island, and the tragic through-line of Ellie's love for Joel that permeates the entire game - it's like the War and Peace of video games. Not everyone wants to read War and Peace. It's not a beach read. So, I totally get both sides. I'm glad for myself that the game resonated so deeply with me, but I'm empathetic toward those who were hoping for a much different experience. I felt Joel's presence throughout, especially when Ellie was on her own. That part of it resonated with my own loss of parents and how they are never truly dead. No game has captured that as well. Again... not a great place to visit if you're not looking for it. In response to your analysis, if the final product was a result of groupthink, then I feel fortunate that the output is something I call a masterpiece.
Glad you can understand both sides! I personally still don't really get how this can be viewed as a masterpiece. The story is riddled with plot holes that pull me out of the emersion. The characters act like plot devices. And then all of it was rendered meaningless by the ending. Just not seeing it man, but I'm happy some people were able to get their $60 worth out of it.
@@ChadMichaelSimon Oh buddy prepare for a long message lmao. I made a whole video covering what bothered me about Joel's death, but Ill just repeat that the entire story of this game hinges on Joel's incredibly poorly written death. A lot of the plot holes or plot contrivances that confused me have to do with characters acting like complete idiots. I'll start with Ellie finding the aquarium bc up to that point the game wasn't that bad. Why do Mel and Owen have absolutely no respect for a maniac with a gun, or a care in the world for their unborn child? Why is Mel going out on patrol 8 months pregnant? Why does Ellie carry around a map with her theatre base circled in red on it? Why does Ellie leave that map on the ground? Why do Tommy and Ellie just leave the dead bodies there? Why wouldn't they stick around the aquarium to see if Abby came back? Literally why would they kill all of Abby's friends then just give up trying to find her. They don't even search the aquarium for clues. That entire sequence of stupid decisions is so that Abby can then find the theatre. Now were at the theatre. Why would Abby assume it was Ellie who killed her friends. She heard Tommy was attacking people on the radio, AND WATCHED HIM KILL MANNY....Abby shouldn't know it was Ellie who killed her friends. Why didn't she just kill Tommy the second she got in there. Why are characters bursting through doors without a care in the world despite hearing something wrong? Next one is really bad. Then when Tommy is at gun point: why doesn't Ellie shoot Abby when she is distracted by Tommy??????? Now were inside backstage in the red lit area. Next up we have Ellie hitting Abby with a board of wood rather than just shooting her with her shotgun that she uses a literal second later. Then Ellie is getting choked and stabs Abby in the leg with a knife instead of into her neck, stomach, anywhere lethal. I guess were just supposed to assume Dina is asleep the ENTIRE sequence with Abby killing Jesse, shooting going off everywhere and Abby fighting Ellie?? Until the end when she attacks Abby with KNIFE? Dina has a gun. Then Abby is going to kill Dina bc shes pregnant and were supposed to empathize with this psychopath? Like what is this game... It makes me sad writing this bc I wanted to love this game so much, but the story is just terrible. Hope this made sense.
@@saucytendies Like I said, not going to rebuke... because they’re all valid points and a refreshing list compared to some of the other points I’ve read. The only one that made me chuckle was the question about leaving the dead bodies, but only as a joke in considering the swath of dead they left everywhere else - in this case it would make sense for them to at least hide them and lay in wait. I get swept up in what works at the expense of the detailed questions, I suppose. Knowing how the developers enjoy constructing, unpacking, and layering, your list makes me sad thinking, just a nudge here or a rewrite there could’ve fixed them. Like they got so locked into what they wanted to do with it that they couldn’t see the trees for the forest. An outside perspective, a literary editor... someone to pose these questions to them, so they could brainstorm a few more passes to make it airtight would’ve done them a world of good.
@@ChadMichaelSimon Totally agree with that comment. I think they could have tweaked a lot of things and made a revenge story work. Joel not dying would have been a great start for me. I would have much rather seen Joel and Ellie reluctantly repair their relationship over the course of the game after someone close to both of them was killed. Could have been Tommy lying to Abby's group that his name was Joel to protect his brother. Then he gets killed in his place. Idk it is just a bizarre choice to destroy the part of the series that made it so great. I am glad you can enjoy the game still though. Thanks for the discussion man
I can't believe he pushed out Amy Hening, a competent woman just because she didn't agree with him. That's what "creative differences" means, yes? It's also disturbing that he can sympathize with Abby, and thinks revenge is such strong motivation. Maybe for him it is.
I will say that she got forced out isn't confirmed, but I think she was. I don't think anyone would willingly leave the final game in the series that was your baby to someone else.
I belive there is a version of the game that he sold us. I still think that the OG story was that Dina was going to die and we had sections where we play as Ellie and Joel. But Joel has Tommy as a companion and Ellie had Jesse.
No, Neil said in a recent interview that joel dying early was always the plan when he decided to do a sequel. Dina was just a red herring. I never thought Dina was gonna die to begin with since that’s not a compelling reason to encourage the player to get revenge.
@@Ryan-cs3uc For the player, its not compelling. Maybe for Ellie but then again from most of trailers and even the launch trailer it seemed that Joel and Ellie were going to do this journey together.
Jonathan Mercado yea, it was deliberately misleading. I’m ok with it to some extent but I completely see why people are upset with it because it can be really frustrating, not getting the exact experience that was marketed.
I think The Last of Us 2 could have explored Ellie's mother Anna and her father and perhaps a young Marlene just starting the fireflies as well. They could have explored the origins of the virus as well as Ellie's immunity but oh well. It's a missed opportunity.
Its one thing to try to empathize with Abby for killing Joel, but to retcon the events of the first game to give Abby some justification is just insulting. You can tell Druckman really didn't give a sht about the intellect of the audience. The amount of leaps he expects us to take in order for his story to make sense. Why would Joel do that? Just accept it. How did Abby get into the theater? Just accept it. Why is Abby literally bigger than the men in this game? Just accept it. You really think throwing some puppies and kittens in my face would make me empathize with Abby and her butcher of a father? Just accept it. Do you think none of us played the first game? Just accept it. A vaccine, for a fungal infection? Just accept it. Ellie is the only person ON EARTH that is immune? Just accept it. Joel suddenly forgetting what he saw, read, and heard to advance your dumb narrative? Just accept it. We're gonna let Tommy and Ellie go out of the kindness of our hearts (despite torturing POW's back at base)? Just accept it. Mooks have families now? Just accept it. Personal pet peeve with these games in general. What is it with gaming companies and altering guns to make them look less like what they are? WE KNOW thats an AK-47, wtf is up with the ugly ass thumbhole stock and bull barrel? Vepr's are extremely rare in the US and yet Abby somehow has one? Or they'll frequently step over BETTER guns and just take the ammo. Ammo cans and Hardigg cases galore, but you can't search any of them? A pump shotgun with a mare's leg? WHYY? Ellie literally walks over full stock shotguns and just picks of the ammo.
TLOU2 SPOILERS HERE: Great video mate! I' ve always wonder what would be of tlou2 with the presence of Bruce or Amy...I have recently finished my second run on Tlou2 and there is something I find really weird about Abby' s whole story: One just have to think about how 'little time' (around a year I think?) it took for Ellie (even she being so stubborn and rude) to realise that drawning Abby at that beach at the end would never bring her Joel back, BUT that is something that Abby could not do, even having a great family and friends (also Owen), even being safe from death by Joel, even having past more than 4 years after her father' s death, and living and in large group whom she has 'grown with', I mean, in sum, a place where she had 'everything' to not be built as a pycho or obsessed with hate contrary to Ellie, who lost everyone except Joel ("Swear it to me"). So in sum, to me, the way Abby tortures Joel, does not response to how a person that hates Joel would do, (unless she finds Joel let' s say weeks right after her father' s death at the most) BUT as that obsession Neil always had with his initial concept story, the one of 'Tess torturing Joel'. So somehow ALL the structure was constructed just to make possible that scene, which is ugly, tough and unrealistic, if we pay attention to how hate behaves over a person' s body, in this case Abby. Does not make sense that someone can have a normal routine, life, friends, everything, and after more than four years, suddenly finding Joel as droped by heaven she tortures him like that. No sense at all...I think he was so obsessed with that scene of torturing him that everything just turns over it all, not realising how unnatural it is to behave like that for four years, and suddenly killing Joel like that, just because they needed us to feel really angry...so the revenge structure makes sense. Again, great video mister ;)
Neils revenge plot idea could of been cool but I think he also saw how successful tlou was so he probably said “fuck it let’s make a second part with a complete different plot that doesn’t connect at all with the last”
For the crime of killing off Joel and Ellie and forcing the player to play as their killer, no game with Neil Druckmann's fingerprint on it will ever be successful again.
Leading up to the games launch, I thought a good idea would be leaving the characters from part one alone and focus on other survivors, maybe from Jackson too and how they ended up there while having Joel and Ellie cameo or even play a small part in part two.
![All the Reasons Why Joel's Death Makes Absolutely No Sense | Last of Us 2 Analysis [Spoilers]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3L1iT4wAURU/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Last of Us 2 Ending & Leaks Overview | TLOU2 Story is Bad [Spoilers]](/img/n.gif)
As always, thanks for watching!
Dude I'm glad you bring up the word "Groupthink" because It's true, Druckman Fell from grace when he Was following Anita Sarkesian & her Feminist echo chamber, I know nowadays some activists hate Critism & Demonizes anybody who does, that's what happened Druckman Catered to people in echochambers & it honestly bit him in the ass hard ☠️☠️
Great video 👍
nice video man, I just missed the link(s) to the source video in which Druckmann is speaking.
Keep enjoying games!
Have a nice time gaming!
Bruh how'd you get only 1k subs? your content is good man you deserve more... Lol i subscribed : )
@@mravg79 I just put it in there!
Tess was such a great character. I'm glad they ditched the idea of her getting revenge on Joel. She died like a hero.
me too, she would have been such a weird character
I was upset when she died. I hoped she would have been in the game longer.
@@BenjaminBlueforever Omg, same. She impressed me.
My god, I can't believe I forgot that was supposed to be in the first... And I agree, Tess was a very good character
Tess was a strong female character, belieavable and she didn't need to look like a she-hulk or Shrek.
Neil Druckmann is like Vince Russo, he can have good ideas but he needs someone to filter his numerous bad ones
Jordan Kuttler Neil Druckmann is a genius in his own ways. Many ideas he came up for the Last of Us (not the sequel lmao) were great as he is the one that got the ball rolling but many ideas were not like the unnecessary revenge subplot. He needs somebody like Bruce Straley to balance him out and to keep that ball on a set path while creating gameplay systems to support the feel of the story/world. They were the perfect ying/yang of Neils creativeness and Straleys filter. Once Straley left, the success of Part 2 depended on him being man enough to put his pride aside and to learn from his mistakes by accepting his bad ideas were shot down for a reason.........
And apparently he isn’t and the ball ended up smashing right into Joel’s head
But he looks like Seth Rollins.
@@asadbashir3199 HE IS NOT A GENIUS AT ALL, PLEASE STOP LYING 🤥
@@cutiepie6796 To be fair. Even geniuses can be complete fools at times. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Many have missed things that were very important because they were too focused on that one thing you are good at.
I'm not saying he is or isn't a genius. I don't know him. But he does have a lot of potential. In his case he made the mistake of not keeping someone around with the power and spine to look him in the eyes and tell him something won't work. He chose not to recognize his limitations and faults. A bad choice.
@@MrPingn I'M SAYING HE ISN'T A GENIUS
So Neil is somebody that doesn’t learn from his mistakes. He made Last of Us 2 not off substance but pride. Hopefully Bruce Straley will return one day to the industry to support and filter somebody else’s ideas.
Him or someone like him!
I don't think that will happen.
No one is THAT desperate or ready STOOP DOWN to the level of rejoining naughty dog now (after TLOU 2)
“But pride” hit the nail on the head.
Its ok if he believes in his stories but he shouldn't have used them in an existing IP. Its the same thing with Star Wars and Rian Johnson and probably several other IPs nowadays. No one's coming up with new IPs anymore.
Need more Amy..
What’s sad is that red dead redemption 2’s story did so much better at the revenge aspect of things and it wasn’t even the center focus of the game! The focus was redemption and the revenge was still written so much better
Totally agree! This game has made me appreciate red dead 2 so much more
I finished playing rdr2 right before playing tlou2 and the difference in my emotions were wild 😂, after rdr2 I felt like I just lived this epic adventure and thought I was about to live a better one with tlou2 but nope
I said this to one of my friends, after Bruce left there was nobody left to tell Niel no and those who did got fired like some of the game tasters who voiced their opinion and thought the story were bad Neil got ride of them.. but this should be a lesson for Niel, his idea for a revenge plot was shitty in college and is still shitty today.
Yeah men true af, the revenge story's are repeat so so many times, that is frustating to see it again in a game with so much potential, like obvously in the end or she kill her or she forgive her, there was no between, but we all now this shit so well, like the purge 2 and shit.
How can he just get rid of them?
@@lrsb1678 he had the idea sure, but it was a collaborative effort at ND to make tlou 1. He was not solely responsible for it, unlike most of part 2.
Yeaa… why couldn’t he of just used it on a different game tho…
Any Henning would've cooked Neil's TLOU 2 ideas.
lmao I think anyone who liked the first game because of Joel and Ellie's relationship would have cooked Neil's ideas
You're damn right cuz as soon as everyone left and he was all by himself he did whatever the fuck he wanted like a little kid
@@saucytendies facts
Too late kojima beat her to it
@@solob3daking631 did Kojima make fun of it?
Solid work. The references are all there too, so it's clear you're not just talking out of your ass. I had a feeling Neil was only successful because he was kept in check, but never really bothered to look into it.
I think every good writer needs someone to help edit their ideas.
Not to compare Neil with George Lucas, but something kinda similar happened with the prequels when Lucas surrounded himself with yes men.
I still wonder if jar jar was really going to be the big bad of Star Wars but it was changed due to how much people hated jar jar lol.
@@Sev3617 I totally bought the darth Jar Jar theory not going to lie. I mean it could be good editing, but the videos I watched on it were pretty convincing lol
See that would be a great point except none of that is any more true than what I said. It's all conjecture and speculation. No one knows exactly why she left, and there are plenty of people who say what I said.
Isn't that most successful people? Do you think all genius ideas came from one person ? You don't know Neil as a person too judge him like that, this is just another attempt on hating on TLOU2.
It’s a tragedy. When you look back at the first reveal of the game and witness the overwhelming excitement people had it’s sad to see how it all turned out.
I remember people screaming and crying at getting to see Joel talking to Ellie again in the first trailer release...this game is a shame.
Agreed!!! Looking back at the past 10 years of me gaming only 2 times did I become obsessively hyped for a game which for me was Mgs5 The Phantom Pain and The Last Of Us 2 and in both cases for me the disappointment was due to the storylines. I know I Know most will say it’s gameplay that really only matters but imo that’s just not always the case.
guys, it's simple. We've just to use some logic.
Joel could have died, but in a different way. If Druckmann wanted to kill Joel because of an ambush, then he should have written a situation in which Joel is ambushed by SOMEONE HE TRUSTED. That could have been the only way to kill Joel off because of the "ambush matter".
Because there is absolutely NO WAY, that a survivor who survived for 25 years by killing innocent people doing the hunter, being a smuggler and a successful self taught soldier who could kill ON HIS OWN WHOLE ARMIES could have taken his guard down just because of 4 years of relative "peace".
4 years of a realtive more quiet life cannot make him forget 20 years of fucking survival experience.
Well said man
I don’t get why people can’t accept this
20 years > 4years
@@pugasaurusrex8253 and those four years are surely not "peaceful", because Joel goes out very often to deal with other people and infected. So it means he didn't lose his judgemental skills, his combat skills, and his attention to potential danger.
@@pugasaurusrex8253 In a good story writing, if Joel was now more trusting, YOU NEED TO ESTABLISH IT IN THE STORY BEFORE THE ACTUAL DEATH HAPPENS.
Maybe like make us go with him on patrol and he does something very stupid and someone else comments how he is not that attentive anymore as he used to be.
But without establishing a change in his character, this happens.
So are we just supposed to assume?
This was bad and lazy writing.
h h EXACTLY. IF THEY WERE GOING FOR THAT, THEY WOULD HAVE TO ESTABLISH IT PREVIOUSLY ALL IT WOULD’VE TAKEN WAS ONE SCENE, I don’t get what it’s hard to understand
You forget Amy Hening wrote the masterpiece which is Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver which is one of the best written games on the PlayStation 1
And PS2.
She is a very talented person. I wish we had gotten to see what she was working on with her story based star wars game that got cut by EA right before a playable build was ready....
@@saucytendies An article came out a out how far they got. And they had quite a bit made. There was a segment where you are running from a ATST down alleyways where thanks to Frostbite the ATST is just destroying entire buildings. The article was on Eurogamer I think?
@@WllKiedSnake yeah I remember an interview with her said it was almost to the point of a playable build. I can't believe EA just scrapped the idea bc "story games don't make money" What a bunch of idiots.
I think Neil undeniably has the ability to create great ideas and produce amazing writing but it seems he definitely needs people around him to help cut and mold certain ideas.
I totally agree, he is for sure talented
Agree. He totally reminds me of Tetsuya Nomura. People praised him since he is one of the big writers that was involved in Final Fantasy VII but people forget that other people were also involved in that game. Yoshinori Kitase to name one.
Therefore, when Nomura had the opportunity to create his own franchise. It was messy. A fun game but a messy story. Of course, I am talking about the Kingdom Hearts franchise.
It's always the ego getting in the way. I'm very thankful for Bruce!
He's mediocre at best. Other people made gold from his ideas, not him.
H hi is hilarious is it that he spent YEARS having the same idea shut down over and over, and just when he finally get the creative control to do his story, it’s panned and condemned as one of the worst stories and he STILL defends himself and his story.
As far as I'm concerned The Last of Us never got a sequel.
Nicely said my Friend
It ended the story well in the first one
@@saucytendies hhh c'mon the end to the first was clearly not satisfying, Joel lying to Ellie, all built on crimes and a huge lie...you guys are blind.
@@TheTariqibnziyad Which crimes would those be?
@@TheTariqibnziyad Which crimes? Operating a 14yo without her consent? Bombing the ZQ and Fedra usually hurting civilians more? I'm sorry but you didn't get the ending. Did you even see Ellie's face while Joel was lying to her? She is perfectly conscious about his lie, she wants to scream at him and she is holding tears in that moment, but she doesn't call him out cause she understood he did it for her.
TLOU2 story is basically a hurt child inside Neil asking for help.
For help? Nah, more like a huge ass spanking 😆
@@krakra6551 daddy
and then instead of getting help, they get clubbed to death by a golf club because Neil is too far gone.
he's a psycho. They should've just kept joel alive or let him die a heroic death (saving ellie from bandits in an epic fight or something) not by him getting tortured to death.
He should get over it. Im so sick of these emotional adults. Everybody's traumatized? Really? Im not buying it.
My guess is someone in ND was still telling him not to go through with those story ideas but he didn't listen because he was the boss. Remember when the game's story got leaked?
I think the leaker was an independent contractor who was in a payment dispute, so not someone who directly worked at ND but yes obviously someone was unhappy enough to leak basically the entire plot of the game and hours of cutscenes. Could be there was a group of employees fighting this game till the day it was released!
he fulfulled his demented torture fantasy at the expense of the last of us IP
Pretty much what I think happened yeah...I really wish he had made a new IP for this revenge story, its so disconnected from the first game it didn't even feel like the same franchise I just don't get it
@@saucytendies yups i bet its not gonna be successful if it was a stand alone game cuz only a few people like that exotic type of story. almost on par with the mixed review indie game on steam. the fact the he used the fame of the first game as a leverage, screams how crap he knows story is but did it anyway. no wonder most scenes are so forced and absurd he was trying to connect the dots and hoping for it to make sense.
@@arnoldsumaganggmvmaster2081 @SaucyTendies The worst part is that the whole thing is so poorly written even if you want a dark and torturing story. I have seen so many folks online claim we are only upset because the story is dark and we can't handle it, and the response that it tends to rile up is " Not true, because I've read/watched/played the following stories like Berserk, naoki urasawa's Monster anime series, Fate Zero, Song of Saya etc" , basically all fictional stories with dark settings, premises and really "messed up" narratives, but the difference is that alot of these stories i just picked outta the Twitter replies hat is all stories that have good set up, developments, and endings that have a thematic element to it, and it knows how to develop and stick to its themes eloquently. Last of Us 2 just stitches a bunch of parts together that just tortur after torture that is relentless and doesn't really say anything. When someone dies via torture or insanity in Song of Saya , it is saying something about the character who is dying, and the main protag and the main monster of the story, and it is build up well and executed at the right point of the story. When someone dies in LOU2, its just shock value and thats pretty much it. But Nooo, do the fans of LOU2, we should just got play a Barbie game.
@@kairili well the TLOU2 fanboys at this point are just brain dead. you cant reason with them. and i was actually debunking each one for the past month now (i know a waste of time) and they just dont reply cuz they ran out of excuses. basic logic that they cant seem to understand tbh. another thing is that they all have same excuses for it. joel dead cant handle it etc BS. cant handle brutality BS. stuff like that. i mean they are too arrogant why not join the army and brag about brutality while they are at it. these fake fans man they are more annoying than haters.
@@kairili bottomline is there is no need for debate if the plot is diffrent. everyone here is just arguing wether its realistic or not. when they should start asking why was a post apocalypse not a survival game about the infected and other survivor factions. but about revenge wildwest style red dead redemption. something to think about for the fanboys.
It makes much more sense now to know that Neil was obsessed with the revenge plot.
Though, it makes the revenge plot in Last of Us 2 less genuine.
I'm glad that same idea didn't work for the first game.
Me too, I’m thankful bruce was around long enough to give us one masterpiece of a game
When NO is a NO several times you should take it.
But what if it was a yes? - Neil's brain
Sometimes ideas are rejected at first, and later edited to blossom! Like J.K Rowling, and Steven King, but now I just feel bad for Druckman. Because he didn't have a team that could really challenge and criticize him into brilliant work
Totally agree, a good editor is easily as important as the writer imo.
@@saucytendies omg your comment/reply made me crack up so hard lol 😂😂
Lol, unbelievable, its insane how they all thought this dumb plot was an amazing masterpiece.
10/10 - IGN (IGNore our opinion) lmao
Because they made the game that they wanted to make, not the game that the fan base would like. They ignored their customers which is never a good policy. This reminds me of the Gillette razor ad...
Agenda driven people tend to think very highly of themselves.
Mr Gao I actually love that though. I love when a creator really knows what story they want to tell and really pour their heart and soul into it. That’s just me though
I mean, a lot of people that played it think it’s great, myself included. I think it’s a gripping and compelling narrative, but I do think it’s not for everyone and no shade if you don’t like it
I don't have a problem with the story being dark and that Joel was brutally murdered. I have a problem with how it was constructed and presented, and that they try to force you to like Abby. They kill Joel awkwardly and too soon. They could've created a chemistry between Ellie, Joel, and Abby, so it wouldn't feel forced, and then, in the middle of the game, they could kill him. That would be a shocker and make more sence.
Totally agree
💯Agreed!! They should’ve at least given us a more playtime with Joel and still have patrolling moments together with Ellie and then come across Abby and we would get to know her a bit..but NOT be forced to play her yet. Let the story marinate a bit and let us enjoy more Joel and Ellie time until the inevitable.
tita adorno if I was writing it I would’ve had Joel get killed by Abby and Ellie get kidnapped and then we play as Tommy trying to find Ellie as the WLF are trying to find a vaccine
ray bleakley It seems like you want to play as Tommy more than anyone else.
Justin Cruz I think I might be one of a few who want to play as Tommy at some point
this is one of the best videos i have seen for this game.
everyone does reviews of the final product.
But not everyone taks about what truly happend behind the scenes and the decicion making that led to the final product in regard.
well done! bravo
Seriously appreciate that man, glad you enjoyed it!
Because we don't know much. What we know is that everyone involved in the narrative can say something if he thinks something is wrong. So no, it's not a dictatorship. They changed story bits all the time. Of course Druckman and Gross have the last say but it's far more open than Kojima for example
Yeah...i think all of this makes sense now
Yeah, I agree, this is a solid video about the creative direction of the series. Great job!
that doesn't really matter. That's called process and it exist in every project. We care about the final product which is 💩💩💩
Yeah, crybaby Neil didn't get his way in the first game and then inserted it into the second game to prove his own "genuineness"
And failed and is his story is being mocked nonstop
Jordan Dennis Bruce Straley deserves credit which he did not for the first game
@@jordandennis6794 except LOU2 got game of the year and he’s been promoted to co ceo of naughty dog :/
It is frustrating. Absolutely devastating, this game. Broke my heart, crushed my soul. Enough that if I see his name on anything new, I'll pass. Thanks for the great video!
Me too :(
Mhh maybe a prequel can save the situation who know.
We are still talking about ND, this guys are amazing, hopefully the next time they will learn by their mistakes.
PS. I like the game because is a good story, it's only that as a sequel it doesn't works.
@@jongcena2555 This game should've been just a completely different story and maybe, MAYBE then it would somehow work out. Still I wouldn't be a fan of such angst, I'm too old for it, but lots of frustrated teens probably would love this bloodfest.
@@realswobby exactly, without the maybe.
The problem of this game is the Abby part, i mean it's fucking fun to play as her, but this game is tlou, not The last of Abby.
At most let us play as her for just few hours, not half of the game or make another game/DLC about her story.
The story of this game is unbelievable, try to imagine it without the 1st chapter, it's amazing.
But as a sequel not very much, from a person who loved the game.
@@jongcena2555 Sorry but I'm not amazed by this story, even if it would stand on its own. Too pretencious.
Everyone has different experiences and for me, I think I experienced in my life this kind of ideas in different media (horror books, dark anime stories) enough times already so the ideas in TLOU 2 really don't shock me (positively) nor impress me anymore. The "circle of violence" is so overused.
Fighting as Abby, especially with the infected ones, is enjoyable indeed but I didn't care about her story and I was bored and irritated by these cutscenes. Constantly feeling like the game tries to brainwash me because "look, see, she's a human, she saves kids and she pets doggos, she deserves to be liked too!". Like, okay, I have my brain and I can judge characters on my own. But the game sadly doesn't let you judge them like you really want.
The ending of the game made no sense, at that point Ellie was injured sick and running on hatred and adrenaline, she went through how many people to get to Abby and then let her go.
I think they were banking on the player feeling conflicted about killing her, but they utterly failed at making me empathize with her so it just feels so dumb.
I think they made it to have another theme going for the game which is forgiveness. Since Ellie remembered the fact that she told Joel that she's going to try to forgive him for his actions. But tbh I feel like it would've been better if they used Abby AND Ellie to show that by giving BOTH of them more time with Joel to figure out whether or not they'll be able to forgive him. It doesn't really matter to me if Joel dies. I was ready to cry. But his death in the second game was just too much that it made me angry rather than sad.
@@taeminislove yeah they should have both built a relationship with Joel before Abby figures out who he actually is.
@@saucytendies plus, they introduce the forgiveness theme pretty much at the end of the game. so we see Ellie's flashbacks figuring out what happened in the hospital and Joel's lie. Joel meant a lot for her, just remember the first game, or the Birthday flashback. However, I find it a bit too much that even after 2 years, she figured out everything at the age of 17, she was still angry at Joel. I can't hold a grudge that long, especially not against somebody I love and care about. I find it highly unbelievable that they couldn't talk to each other for 2 years. Now I know that Ellie blames herself for pushing Joel away, but still 2 years is a long time in a small community, where you are forced to meet and see each other every single day. I don't know. I am probably much more forgiving than most people. Overall I don't think this was a bad story. I think there is a good story buried in there, but it could have been told better.
Just a few points I would change: Joel death: Abby should have saved Joel instead, thus giving Joel and Tommy a reason to trust her at least. Or if they want to make Abby more likeable, show her inner conflict that she just got saved by the man, she swore to kill. And her friends would push her into killing him anyway. Even after the deed they should have shown more regret and inner conflict within her to make me feel that she is a human being and she at least regrets her decision of killing Joel the way she did.
If forgiveness is such a big theme, introduce it earlier in the story. you have 8 characters to work with plus Joel. Ellie is mad at all of them. So there are plenty of opportunities to show Ellie's willingness to forgive them. This whole, "I won't hurt you if you tell what I wish to know" is not forgiveness, it is just a threat, nothing more. Now I know they show how broken Ellie becomes after she tortured Nora, or after she realizes Mel's pregnancy, but I don't think that's enough for a forgiveness theme to work at the end. Because despite these acts she still chooses revenge. The Joel and Ellie final flashback is also to little too late, I think. Even though it is a very touching scene, and I love Troy's acting in that scene. (He nailed those lines.)
With a little bit more emphasis on Ellie's forgiving nature, the ending would make a lot more sense. But that still won't solve my main issue with this story. That Ellie loses absolutely everything. Now I am not against a dark, gritty tragedy. I think a tragic story can be really profound and and can serve as a warning, for example Oediopus Rex, he is running from fate only to fulfill it at the end, hoping that maybe his children won't have to suffer the way he did, or Javer's tragedy when he realizes at the end that even a convict can be redeemed in Les Miserables, or Rome and Juliet's tale where through their tragedy, the families finally see that their conflict has to end otherwise it will only lead to more misery and death. Anyway the idea is that all these stories show a glimpse into a hopeful future. If that was the intention with this games ending, where Ellie leaves the guitar at the window and she is walking away defeated and broken then it was badly conveyed I believe. I don't need much, I don't need a whole chapter, but I think losing her two fingers was a bit too much for me.
All of these show me that Neil was committed to the very end, that Ellie is going to kill Abby. For that, she is going to pay the price, losing everything that was once precious to her. This way the story makes perfect sense. But out of nowhere they introduce a forgiveness theme to emphasize that she didn't lose her humanity yet. Well it is not a bad idea, in fact I love this idea, but once again it was out of left field to be believable for Ellie's character to act the way she did at the end.
To finish with Ellie's own words, "After all we have been through, after all I have done, it can't be for nothing"
Because ellie failed to realize earlier
I will never get over the 2nd game. Destroyed a beautiful franchise.
DESTROYED!! I have no interest in any more sequels .
Maybe they will learn from their mistakes? Maybe part 3 will turn it around?
The worst part is that its not even a bad game. It just has bad writing. The gameplay is so good the developers themselves did a great job, it's just such a cliché and contrived story made by incompetent writers.
@@blackdeathbuddy11234 I'm not sure how they would. The Joel Ellie dynamic was the heart and soul of the franchise.
I see the connection. I remember that it was intended for the first game that Tess would catch Joel and torture him, but that they said no to this writing. Bruce Straley was really a genius and that Druckmann did not see that what was intended for the first game and was dismissed and insisted on bringing this to part 2 is strange. I mean the idea for the first game was a success so why did Druckmann choose to make this U-turn to revive an idea that demonstrably would not succeed by pushing back to what contributed to the success?
It could a few different reasons I think. From letting hype for himself go to his head, to being bitter about these ideas being cut out or so simply not caring if it pleased the original fans. I doubt we will ever know for sure tbh
SaucyTendies I think you have a point about the bitterness. But at the same time it seems to me that the Naughty Dog creators of Last of US thought the game would flop. I think they said this in an interview after the success. Druckmann would try his idea for a new game and not ruin Last Of US like this.
I did see some comments from developers allegedly hoping LOU2 would flop so that Naughty Dog would stop doing such horrible crunches, but I didn't see any interviews. If you find those again I would love to look at them!
SaucyTendies Sorry I was not clear enough. I meant that the first game developers did not believe in the success that occurred for the game. Therefore, it was nothing but disrespectful of Druckmann against the fans to abandon the theme. Regarding part 2, I understand the
developers. At Joel's death scene I became dumb. Because I remember
the trailer where Joel came behind Ellie and I thought he would be in the game.
Ohhhh I get what you are saying now :)
I thought Joel would die at some point during the game (end), but I didn't think they would just blatantly lie to use in the advertising
Man, I'm glad they didn't kill off Elena, she's one of my favourite characters from Uncharted!
I've been around authors 30 years_ its not just the bad idea_ it's the story execution failure.
Yes_ we have to have people who will be brutal when the story is taking shape. You must have the big red marker person who will make you give it life or kill it quickly. 😁
The story is what you care about rising or falling. There are best selling authors who are indulged in vanity projects that aren't mass appealing.
However_ this comes only after much celebrity.
All companies and media (particularly Hollywood) have declared themselves inside industry pleasers, so you can't expect they are in touch with real players.
Look, we had authors in our co op who took no advice, did no edit rounds and wrote adults like 14 year olds_ no growth _ just emotional melodrama. There are people who gobble that up and turn it into fan fiction. The Buffy days were the epitome of bad writing. The audience changed and so books did_ they were YA drama between the covers. I retired soon after lol.
ND is a product both of out of touch Hollywood and stunted growth__ the immature writer surrounded by yes people cannot perfect his or her craft. No one can without trusted folk who tell them what the real world consumes and honestly__ no one who wrote an old rejected story carrys it around to revive😒 we had authors with 600 pages of pure drek that they would insist on self publishing _ it didn't get better_ it didn't work. That's why you trust editors.
If he wanted a revenge plot he could have done it a million ways__ and not used characters as tools, devices and props.
That's just my take as a retired writer of 50 novels in all genres. I wrote under 4 pen names from 99 to 2011__ and ran a publishing co op_
Many people like TLOF2 and ignore plot holes _forgotten characters arcs _ bad dialogue and lack of pacing. It doesn't matter to them. That's fine.
BUT_The story criticisms are legit for people who liked #1. There's everything missing story _ character, pacing, and plot for them.
Its not difficult to think up an idea outline.... The work and skill in writing comes from fleshing out the story and staying consistent as well as engaging. Character driven stories cannot stand by bells and whistles_ in this case game play violence fillers or side stories. Introduction of plot threads like_ abby revenge_ would have to be so central that even your main is aware of being hunted....it would be a POV plot point you felt through Joel.
The execution of ideas is not a fully fleshed story_ it's scenarios. And you don't do that at the expense of depth. It is lazy, unskilled, and in this case a satisfaction of personal ego.
He needed someone_ anyone_ to at least point out the basic pacing and consistently.
As a gamer since pong_ I am disappointed in THOU2. As an author the story flaws are embarrassing_ and an insult to the craft. As a person_ I can see ND as someone who entered the marketplace to produce products that sell to gamers. So though I think critics can stick to taking the game to task. I disagree with the defence of it by ND in the words he chooses.
I was in the market world wide_ you create a product and guarantee it to your customers for $$. No stories are not babies once the author puts $$ value on it. And __ the selling of series is dependant on the #1 game success and so to insult, chastise or claim some god status over the story is at best disingenuous.
We all know the money a customer spends has a built in expectation. To claim ignorance to that is being deliberately tone deaf.
In the end, he made his vanity project_with the $$ behind him, fans of #1 _ and co_ gave him power of control that allowed for it to be personal rather than commercial and mass market friendly. The question is__can gamers accept that the industry caters to the group rather than the mass market customers. And in truth, we know from movies, TV and sports__ the $$ will be behind the message and messenger. The lack of skill, talent, or attention to craft, doesn't matter so long as the right philosophy is presented.
At his level of success, he can afford to live in whatever reality he creates around the criticism of the game. He does that at the expense of trust by the customer. (Shrug)
He doesn't mind writing off half the fan base. That's something future customers$$ have to remember. The rest are and will be fine with it.
It's not his hobby to indulge in once he takes someone's money_ fully aware of slight of hand advertising to sell it as something else. It was all badly done _ many things were put in motion to deceive the fan and quash the legit reviews. That's not a great way to do business for anyone.
Pride and ego in a competitive and ruthless market ... It shows how ugly the biz is. And it's that way in most professions.
We older authors had long relationships with fans that we valued above all else.
Honestly have no idea if you really are a writer, but I thought you made some really good points regardless.
@@saucytendies I'm happily retired. I wrote historical fiction: medieval, Recency and western, urban fantasy, and southern gothic _lol. It's fine. I used pen names for obvious reasons_ I wanted each story to stand alone and me be invisible mostly,... It's the way novel writers often worked in order to be prolific and avoid the ego trip__ we loved the storytelling. and... it made it easier to retire me and the novels later. I left at a good time.
Back in the day 2005_ I did some manuals for new writers on character development and pacing for some on line publishers. It's not something (action) writers can always pull off. We called it_ Everyone dies and who cares syndrome. 😁
TLOU did that show_ don't tell_ both in action & subtle ways... I own it on ps 4 and 3. It is that good. #2 just failed in a hot mess way for me.
You showed great insight in your summation. 😁 understanding motive is done that way__ looking into the root of things and work attitude, the way someone works is how they view that finished work. I'm disappointed not to have a good new TLOU game to play this fall& winter__ and I think your take on the situation is helping a lot of us move on after years of expectation. Very well presented.
Have a good one.
@@bda2444 That is very cool! Hope you have a good one as well
Thanks man, your insight was what I needed to feel a sense of closure on this game.
@@bda2444 What did you write? I might want to read some of your work
Interesting video. It's clear now - Abby is Neil's Tess 2.0 He just couldn't let go of a story concept. He wanted to move that piece forward so much - he couldn't see the destruction it would cause. He clearly needs someone else to check and balance his ideas. And all this time Druckmann has probably been holding a grudge that his Zombie Apocalypse game isn't purely all his concept. Other creators edited it - to make it better
yep...its a shame
as Arthur Morgan said - " revenge is a fool's game "
That's the point of tlou 2
@@theklippet exactly
The Klippet thank you.
@@theklippet so he ripped off rdr2. Good to know
@@jordandennis6794 Ah yes, of course. Neil Druckmann wrote the entirety of The Last of Us 2, developed it, polished it, finished and shipped it, all in less than two years, all because RDR2 came up with the concept of revenge first and Neil Druckmann was inspired by it.
Hiya, two years later felt like watching this video especially with how TLOU is back in public consciousness and got to say love how you sourced all your points with evidence and I feel completely convinced of your groupthink perspective and how TLOU 2 ended the way it did
Incredibly well said my man! Neil needs to eat a fat “told you so” sandwich.
I think he is getting that with the reception of the game, but I could be wrong lmao
@@saucytendies he is only seing the praises lol or the stupid insults
@@saucytendies he knows he desrves it. No one cant be that blind, but he ultimately chose to ignore al negative critisism whether it is constructive or destructivo. For example he could have said something of the skill up review wich praises almost everything except mechanics and story, giving credit where it due. But he then just cherry picked the ones that dont give any flaws to the game or if they do they have to be Minor. Kinda feeling a yanderedev vibe from him now that I think about it
He said himself. People are not going to like it. So what exactly is he being told?
@@trevordicenso2262 he acts as if people dont like it due to the not-so-happy ending and killing joel.
TBH, everyone could assume that joel was gonna dir in this game...
And the story-telling is pretentious, it acts as if it showed/did/touched every aspect of its story, but it didnt .
I agree with what you're saying Abby is a good character but not in the context of Last of Us 2. It should have been an entirely different story. You can't mix love with hate.
yeah i agree. abby is a fucking psychopath several times in the story. but she's also seen to be a nice person. and it conflicts to much and it doesn't work
kam Joel is also a psycho in TLOU1 yet we still love him
joel is not a psycho in the first game. he doesn't threaten to kill a woman that was only protecting her friend and when finding out she's pregnant, becomes happy about it and revels in doing it. he kills to protect ellie, not to hurt other people for a stulid revenge plot. the only time he's a psycho is the firefly lab, but he was driven by rage and fear, not enjoyment
@@kams8759 Abby being "excited" about killing Dina was because she reverted back to her old ways of being hellbent on revenge seeking catharsis. Ellie did just kill her best friend in the entire world and his pregnant gf that just wanted to leave. Lev reminded her that she's changed.
Joel kneecapped a person looking for Ellie and killed both (when neither posed a threat because disabled and tied up). Used to fake sick to capture ppl and steal their supplies. Tortured people probably a lot. And killed a whole platoon of people in a hospital.
see it how you want, joel isn't a monster in my eyes, abby is without lev
Ok so Joel's awkward death scene was only *ONE* of the big writing mistakes, let me enlighten you: IT IS NOT BECAUSE HE DIED BRUTALLY THAT IT PISSED OFF PEOPLE. Maybe stupid people who has no objective points of view but when you think about it for two second it doesn't take a genius to realize what I'm about to say.
There is a scene in the first game where Joel shots without even hesitating on a person faking to be injured. Why? Because he has the experience and the MORAL VALUE OF SAVING HIS OWN LIFE WITHOUT TAKING UNECESSARY RISKS. The second game has nothing of that because Cuckman wrote it and disregard almost the entirety of its foundation.
That was one point out of dozens.
Bruh tbh how did they expect joel to die? Im all for "everything can happen" but the way joel was found is absurd and as if thats not enough the way he gets lead to a group of ppl just outside his camp and lets out his name without a second thought jus blows my mind
@@matthewelias6233 why does everyone says he told his name without hesitation? Tommy did. Because they were panicking and trying to get Abby to trust them so they could flee together. And after that in the Lodge of course they didn't expect to be killed when you just saved one of their peoples life.
When i heard last of us is getting a sequel i went "why?" As this was when it was just rumours even now i don't know why it ever did.
Good job man. Now I understand why Niel fu*kt up the story. But finally it’s very sad. Joel was for me, the greatest character after Arthur Morgan! But Arthur died after he safe John! Joel died for nutthin man. Only for a golf simulator scene.
Arthur's death was really well done
Rockstar in my opinion does better main character death
@@zidanhyethecowboy9019 Not with Johnny Klebitz
@@jordandennis6794 2/3 is still good. John and Arthur have some of the best deaths in fiction
Not every death makes sense. That's life
i think neil druckman hates us i guess he thinks while abby beating joel he feels he is beating us with the golf cane
lmao
Now when i do go play golf, it's just not the same anymore.... :(
i dont like what happened to Joel but over all i think the game is amazing, but after u beat it one or two time it has no replay value
Hhh grow up, not all stories are avenger.
@@clw9680 games don't need to replay value at all of they had a huge impact on you the first time.
I feel so bad for Amy Hennig. She’s like that kid that nobody wants to partner with during a lab or project in school, even though she has some of the most excellent ideas. She keeps getting ousted from companies and getting her ideas scrapped. It’s a serious injustice and shame.
Her latest game was going to be a story based star wars game but EA scrapped it about 3 years into development
SaucyTendies yeah I remember seeing the little snippet of footage of a guy in a black cloak walking out of a cantina on Mos Eisley and some stormtroopers walking by. I was stoked to see what it was about
To be fair. We payed for the game. We have the right to complain. Not harrassed or death treats but we HAVE the right to complain for what WE pay
I used to think The Last Of Us 2 was a comedy... But now i realize it's a tragedy.
Bloody hell, people were telling Neil to tone the really dark stuff down for YEARS. If Bruce hadn't of left and worked his magic, to filter out Druckmann's bullshit then TLOU2 would of been a very different game.
It's such a shame, TLOU- one of the best games of all time, with our beloved Joel and Ellie, nothing will change that, not even a dogshit sequel.
Jessie! I thought Abby shot you lmao but for real its such a shame
To be fair, he did hire Halley Gross after Straley left for that exact reason (there are multiple interviews where he admits hes darker and needed Gross to help lighten the mood). I think the good intention was there but any doubt was lost in the studios high reputation. He even admitted that it was actually Gross's idea to kill off Joel in an interview w her and Greg Miller.
SaucyTendies why is it a shame? Tlou2 is an amazing game. I love the darkness and themes of growth through compassion in the game.
@@alexw4570 I'm happy for you that you like the game, I and alot of others don't. Simple.
@@alexw4570 I loved it too but there really isn't any denying that the hate for it is at least understandable. It's a very hard game to like
Every great writer needs an amazing editor. Someone to tell the writer "no". As a writer (amateur, fledgling, unpublished), the best work I've ever done is when someone has told me "no" to one of my ideas. I've done my best writing when having to rewrite something because, "this is stupid" or "this makes no sense". Such experiences have made me value negative criticism of my work more than positive. I still don't like to be told I'm terrible or did a bad job, but I listen and try to correct it once I stop foaming at the mouth with anger over it. It's the most valuable information I can receive and I use it to do better.
Neil is the sort of guy who never learned that his ideas need refinement. Great writers have worlds in their head. They peak into other universes. But, even they realize that telling the story as they see it... doesn't make for a good story. Someone needs to be there to help edit the experience and refine it into its most pure form of entertainment. If a writer doesn't have that... they quickly go off the deep end and make sub-par work without understanding why. Someone needs to stand in the way of indulgences of the artist.
I'm glad the yt algorithm recommend this video.
praise the algorithm and it's strange ways lmao glad you enjoyed my video
Neil is the epitome of "It's angsty so it's good."
"I really wished I could've loved it" is the only reasoning I could find to even finish the game in the first place. Was tempted to just look up the end of the "story" online, so I wouldn't have to keep torturing myself playing this master-piece of sht game.
6/10 would not play that sorry excuse of a "second part" again :'D
Also, that zebra-scene was such a cheap steal from the original game it disturbed me even more than Joel's death. Still not over this mess :D
I feel you man. Check out the memes for this game on r/LastofUs2 that helped me get over it
This is one aspect that lot of people forget about games studios, their staff members change over time. The internal team of Bioware's Mass effect 1 is almost entirely different of Mass Effect Andromeda's team. Same goes to Naughty Dog. A game studio is not an monolithical entity. and so their project ideas and quality changes, for better or worse ...
I think they should have gone all out to bring as much of the original team together for any sequel. Especially from the creative/narrative side. If they couldnt do that or they did manage to bring the old team together but couldnt agree on a narrative progression from part one. Then part 2 should never of happened
Yep! Most people have no idea what crunch is either, they think pushing a release date back means the staff get a break
So basically this all comes down to that Neil can't take no for an answer. Also doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
pretty much yeah...its a shame
I just look at it from the outside. The story design to me is a basic disrespect to the players. Neil had specific ideas of where he wanted to the story to go and the beats he wanted to hit, but he didn't factor in the $60 price tag and the 25 hour play time, or whether or not anyone thought either of those things were worth the story. Nor did he care how he marketed it to fans of the first game when he intended it for a completely different group. If he cared about making a worthwhile game, he needed people experienced with good game story design to make it worth playing through. They had a real opportunity to make a spectacular sequel - they certainly had the time. At this point I don't think anyone believes Neil cared about answering the fans' desire for what a good sequel would have been like - even if they would have been happily surprised. And with the beats he hit, it's pretty clear what basic group he wanted to speak to. And now, the people who feel let down are being told by the virtue signalers to have more empathy.
yep...its a real shame :(
Holy hell! What an analysis. The 2014 stuff really hits home for a lot of questions. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
I'm so glad someone put this all together. I would love to talk to you more about this because it's all surfacing again with the show debuting lol.
Give this man more subs! "Give me dat hat", zombie says " I have to stop you from killing Joel and save this franchise". Sorry if misquoted you, but you know what I'm talking about, that was hilarious man.
lmao I'm glad someone likes my awful jokes :)
@@saucytendies Man, I laughed too the point of stomach pain and tears 😂. Keep it up bro.
@@saucytendies I also couldnt stop laughing at that , I showed my brother and he also couldnt stop laughing , we were both in tears from that franchise joke😂😂😂👌
@@James-in7eo True story
I hated the Abby part so much and the first thing that came to my mind was "Who thought about this? And did nobody at Naughty Dog say hey it might not be the best idea?" These questions stuck with me even long after I finished the game, but your video helped me understand. I still hate the Abby part but at least now I understand the thought process behind it. Great job! Hope more people could see this
Its crazy how Neil didnt listen. I remember reading an article where he spoke in an interview discussing how some people didnt find the graphic scenes of the seraphties tasteful and his response was essentially "I cant be sexist, I work with women (Gross?)." It really is sad how he doesnt take constructive criticism and that apparently tlou2 is the corrected, "nicer" version. I cant imagine what he had before.
I remember seeing articles about test groups not liking the game as well...what a disappointment. I can't believe they promoted him to co-president a couple days ago.
Imagine finally getting your complete and unique vision out there and everyone hates it. Im sure that would be the outcome for a lot of people and thats why movies video games and most other media are developed by a team! A team that can say to you if need be “hey that doesn’t make any sense in the story, i know this is your vision but its not gonna make sense to anybody else but you!” This is David Cage’s biggest issue when writing his stories as well. I think David and Neil would get along fabulously.
the situation reminds me of Dutch and Hosea
Druckmann: I have a plan this is a good one, let's make a revenge story with Joel being brutally murdered and then Ellie goes on a revenge quest killing everyone on her path except the actual murder of Joel because you have to built symphaty for her.
Straley: I'm not sure that will work, Neil
Druckmann: Oh Bruce, have some goddamn faith!
At least Dutch is likeable and has proper character development... Whereas Neil is just a SJW degenerate...
This story reminds me one of Cracked articles: a producer wanted badly to put a giant spider in one of his movies for years. But someone always took that idea down. Finally- he succeeded in Wild Wild West…
The big think about The Last of Us is the fact that it really didn't need a sequel. Now I know some would say what happened with Ellie and Joel lying to her. However for what we learned from the first game, there was no real guarantee that they could have found a cure if they sacrifice Ellie anyway. To me it would have been better if they just live happily ever after and had Abby in her own stand-alone game. There could have been cameos by Joel or Ellie but frankly it should have been a whole new story because the other story was too solid to mess with
Thanks for posting this, I was confused as to why TLOU2 story panned out the way it did & now I understand. Good informative video, subscribed.
Appreciate it man :)
Well done. I have seen multiple Last of Us 2 videos and I learned a lot from yours which says a lot. Excellent job on doing your homework.
Much appreciated! I tried to do some good research
so basically, even in the first game, if Neil Druckman took full creative control, the first game would have not garnered praise as we know, until no one is left to oppose Druckman's ideas, when you look at Druckman's early writing for Last of Us, it wasn't really anything special, then it came to life in Last of Us 2
hard to know for sure, but the revenge plot with Tess trying to kill Joel would have been a lot to add to the end of that game.
Im new to your channel, Im glad that this was the first video of yours that I've watched. This is really well paced, and great amount of backstory that I had no clue about, that type of research really helps me understand how this all went down. Im crossing my fingers for that face reveal tho, for sure.
Lmao thanks man! This one took a min to research so I’m glad it makes sense
Second'd.
Great take! You have really pieced it all together!
I'm glad Neil finally was able to make the game HE wanted, and I hope its clear to him now that his revenge story kinda sucks.
TLOU isnt YOUR game neil, its ours. Thank you for making the first one, no doubt. But check your ego and listen to the people who challenge you more instead of people just trying to please you.
every moment in the game doesont make sense why they did not kill dina and how tommy getting shoot in head and he is alive
Yeah they for sure died from injuries after Abby broke multiple bones in all of their bodies and gave them concussions lmao
People lose their eyes in battles without the bullet touching the brain all the time. And when was Dina supposed to die?
@@pulpficti 3 smash to the wooden floor With a Big-Ass arm is enough to kill people.
@@Crakygamez people are way harder to kill than u imagine.
@@pulpficti When she fell through the glass trying to save Ellie. Dude just puts away his gun and try to choke her lol
Man, FINALLY we got a good explanation of why this story exists. Thank you so much for your video!
No problem man!
I don’t mind revenge plots and killing off main characters, I think it helps people get invested in the story. But I think because of how they shifted the focus and how sudden it was killed it. Maybe they should’ve waited to do that in the third game.
Well done on sticking with your channel. This video is great, thank you!
Appreciate it man!
Damn I was 2 years late finding this channel 😭
As someone who really liked the game I really enjoyed your video. You showed evidence and your opinion but always in a very respectful way.
Glad it came across the way I wanted, that was my intention!
Bruh, no writer would dare to kill off beloved character that quickly if they even know their fanbase.
Neil’s idea of a dude protecting a little girl in a zombie apocalypse sounds kinda familiar now that I think of it
This also explains Neil's reaction after the game launched, essentially a flat out refusal to acknowledge any flaws with the game in the same way he kept pitching the same rejected idea without building in core feedback.
yeah... :(
Saucy Tendies, you do excellent detective work.
Watching your videos is like watching a professional prosecution attorney presenting a criminal case step-by-step.
Hahaha thanks man
"There was a sequel, wasnt as good"
-Joel
This is a pretty good analysis. Great work with the footage and piecing together the evidence, it does point heavily to the idea that group think was something that happened at the ND studio.
Much appreciated!
thats tuff what happened to naughty dog .. i guess we never ever gonna see a real second part to this game , except we get a miracle.
Amazing video dude. Other people have spoken around these things in some other videos I’ve seen around youtube, but this is the best explanation and examination I’ve seen yet regarding the questionable environment of ND in the lead up to the release of TLOU2. Very well done.
Thank you! Glad you liked it!
This is like a good mini documentary on TLOU2 Trashfire
that is what I was going for! Glad you liked it!
Super insightful video dude. You answered so many of my questions regarding how this game's narrative came to be. Gahhh the situation is so frustrating, im replaying the first one and TLOU2 feels like it was written for a completely different franchise; so bloated and all over the place, it feels like a fanfiction. Neill was working with gold and he fumbled it big time.
Totally agree man, they made a fanfiction into a AAA game :(
You missed our Neil's relationship with Anita sarkeesian. She was a massive influence on the game also.
I 100% agree with you because I felt the same with TLOU II. That game should have focused on Abby and Lev's story instead of having her murder Joel and then eat Ellie's fingers (Sheesh! Neil's such a weird guy....) The Last of Us could have been a platform for different stories of humanity in a broken world, but instead it became a divisive mess that's been milked dry with remasters and remakes of the same, exact game....
My dad says keep your expectations low and you’ll never be disappointed
Lmao
I know someone else who said that. I think it's Kratos 😂
@@ashwinc3789 wait I think you're right! Good catch lmao
Ashwin C lol yea
Thank you! I can't give you enough credit for this, to go back to see the history of the creator. He didn't really have real new ideas for this game. He just waited until he had the power to use the rejected ideas. Personally I wish this was Ellie out for revenge for Dina's death. They could have given us a powerfull love story in flashbacks as Ellie was on her hunt. Joel would join her quest, but get killed because of Ellie's wish for revenge. That is if you want the real dark theme and see Ellie alone in the end. I didn't even feel anything when they killed Joel the way they did, just was mad at the writer for doing it that way. Ellie, Tommy and Joel all went careless and basically blind just so they could get that over with quickly. Such an insult!
Seriously one of the most informative videos about TLOU 2! I didn't even notice the time passed :D Hope you channels grows and enjoy Ghost of Tsushima!
Thanks man! So far I’m loving Ghost of Tsushima, thinking about making a video about act 1 and the combat. Also love that avatar, praise the sun!
@@saucytendies Souls fan as well! Prasin' forever \[T]/ Love your channel more now!
Haha thanks man! The soulsbornesekiro games are some of my favorites of all time. I can still remember thinking Solaire was for sure the banished son of Gwyn in DS1. I actually wear some of VaatiVidya's merchandise in some of my other videos now that I'm thinking about it lmao
Man, I am fascinated with the last of us 2 development, thankfully I was never a big fan of the franchise otherwise I would have been pissed! I just found very interesting how people find the game appealing narratively, not to say they cannot like it, but I feel there are a lot of very telling story "mistakes" or moments where the game is not sure what is trying to tell and I feel that in any other work of fiction no one would let it slide, let alone call it a master piece :/
Yeah I am pretty confused how some people totally ignore glaring issues and think this game is a masterpiece. You can still enjoy something objectively bad, but to call a basic revenge story with massive plot holes a “masterpiece” because it made you hate yourself while playing it is beyond me lmao
So it's not believable for Tess to travel across the country for revenge, with a large group of people, to track and kill Joel, but its believable for Abbey? Why? It's like they just wanted to ruin the story, the characters, and the entire game in general 🙄
I really like the story!! But how they wrote the story, and the order that events took place was kinda wack. As well as characters being boring and dialog being stale. Like when Yara discovers Lev after he was forced to kill his mom. They could have made that scene really hit home!! But for me, that scene, and the whole game, didn't make me feel anything besides disappointment.
I think with some major cuts and a lot of changes the overarching story could have worked if executed better. I agree they missed a big opportunity with Lev killing his mom. So many emotional scenes were left of screen. Where was Joel's funeral?? If Abby had shown any sort of remorse or conflict before killing Joel and given him a swift death I think people wouldn't have been more open to the idea of her not being a complete psychopath.
I agree with many of the comments here. From the perspective of someone who loves the game, it's refreshing to listen to your examination of how the studio arrived at such a divisive release.
I'd avoided the leaks before my first play, but it was impossible to ignore the review bombing stories and controversy surrounding the plot. The easy assumption was that Joel would die, and when that time came, likeRegardless
Aside from whether Joel deserved his comeuppance, I made a promise to myself to accept the story they wanted to tell and reserve judgement until after I finished it. There is only one first play-through, I thought, and before every nook and cranny in the environment, every cut scene and character moment, and every musical note became known by rote as they do with our favorite games, I wanted to revel in experiencing them for the first time. That was my focus. Yes, I squirmed when they put me in Abby's shoes and felt like I was slogging through her Day One. Yes, I reeled when I realized this was the second half of the game's run time and that she had her own skill tree and weapon upgrades. But I stuck with it and came to love her. I had to process the narrative for a couple of days afterward. Once I had it fully in my head, I couldn't wait to dive back in for another run.
You hit a nail on the head when you said that her story with the WLF, Lev, Yara, and the Saraphites would've made an amazing stand-alone game. I see them as two games in one package with Joel as the connective tissue and catalyst for both. But what I found astonishing where half the audience was repulsed was how Joel's death was the beginning of her story, how everything unraveled from there, and how her arc stood in juxtaposition to Ellie's journey. I loved how it challenged the player's perception of killing and death in that world. It means nothing when we kill NPC #57 or dog #4, but when a character we care about gets killed, our love and attachment ascribe them higher value. That's life. That's love, family, and relationships. The game flips that by saying all the people Joel mowed through in the first game meant something to somebody else, too. Their intrinsic value should be weighed on merit, not familiarity, but that's not the way people work.
The game shines for me upon repeated play-throughs. The overlapping layers, the unknown characters becoming known, the fact that Abby is Ellie's white whale while Ellie isn't even a blip on Abby's radar, the escalation of the futility of war by the time Abby and Lev leave the Seraphite island, and the tragic through-line of Ellie's love for Joel that permeates the entire game - it's like the War and Peace of video games. Not everyone wants to read War and Peace. It's not a beach read.
So, I totally get both sides. I'm glad for myself that the game resonated so deeply with me, but I'm empathetic toward those who were hoping for a much different experience. I felt Joel's presence throughout, especially when Ellie was on her own. That part of it resonated with my own loss of parents and how they are never truly dead. No game has captured that as well. Again... not a great place to visit if you're not looking for it. In response to your analysis, if the final product was a result of groupthink, then I feel fortunate that the output is something I call a masterpiece.
Glad you can understand both sides! I personally still don't really get how this can be viewed as a masterpiece. The story is riddled with plot holes that pull me out of the emersion. The characters act like plot devices. And then all of it was rendered meaningless by the ending. Just not seeing it man, but I'm happy some people were able to get their $60 worth out of it.
@@saucytendies I'd love to hear your thoughts on the plot holes that bothered you. I won't rebuke. I'd just like to hear your take.
@@ChadMichaelSimon Oh buddy prepare for a long message lmao.
I made a whole video covering what bothered me about Joel's death, but Ill just repeat that the entire story of this game hinges on Joel's incredibly poorly written death.
A lot of the plot holes or plot contrivances that confused me have to do with characters acting like complete idiots. I'll start with Ellie finding the aquarium bc up to that point the game wasn't that bad. Why do Mel and Owen have absolutely no respect for a maniac with a gun, or a care in the world for their unborn child? Why is Mel going out on patrol 8 months pregnant?
Why does Ellie carry around a map with her theatre base circled in red on it? Why does Ellie leave that map on the ground? Why do Tommy and Ellie just leave the dead bodies there? Why wouldn't they stick around the aquarium to see if Abby came back? Literally why would they kill all of Abby's friends then just give up trying to find her. They don't even search the aquarium for clues. That entire sequence of stupid decisions is so that Abby can then find the theatre.
Now were at the theatre. Why would Abby assume it was Ellie who killed her friends. She heard Tommy was attacking people on the radio, AND WATCHED HIM KILL MANNY....Abby shouldn't know it was Ellie who killed her friends. Why didn't she just kill Tommy the second she got in there. Why are characters bursting through doors without a care in the world despite hearing something wrong? Next one is really bad.
Then when Tommy is at gun point: why doesn't Ellie shoot Abby when she is distracted by Tommy???????
Now were inside backstage in the red lit area. Next up we have Ellie hitting Abby with a board of wood rather than just shooting her with her shotgun that she uses a literal second later. Then Ellie is getting choked and stabs Abby in the leg with a knife instead of into her neck, stomach, anywhere lethal.
I guess were just supposed to assume Dina is asleep the ENTIRE sequence with Abby killing Jesse, shooting going off everywhere and Abby fighting Ellie?? Until the end when she attacks Abby with KNIFE? Dina has a gun. Then Abby is going to kill Dina bc shes pregnant and were supposed to empathize with this psychopath? Like what is this game...
It makes me sad writing this bc I wanted to love this game so much, but the story is just terrible. Hope this made sense.
@@saucytendies Like I said, not going to rebuke... because they’re all valid points and a refreshing list compared to some of the other points I’ve read. The only one that made me chuckle was the question about leaving the dead bodies, but only as a joke in considering the swath of dead they left everywhere else - in this case it would make sense for them to at least hide them and lay in wait. I get swept up in what works at the expense of the detailed questions, I suppose. Knowing how the developers enjoy constructing, unpacking, and layering, your list makes me sad thinking, just a nudge here or a rewrite there could’ve fixed them. Like they got so locked into what they wanted to do with it that they couldn’t see the trees for the forest. An outside perspective, a literary editor... someone to pose these questions to them, so they could brainstorm a few more passes to make it airtight would’ve done them a world of good.
@@ChadMichaelSimon Totally agree with that comment. I think they could have tweaked a lot of things and made a revenge story work. Joel not dying would have been a great start for me. I would have much rather seen Joel and Ellie reluctantly repair their relationship over the course of the game after someone close to both of them was killed. Could have been Tommy lying to Abby's group that his name was Joel to protect his brother. Then he gets killed in his place. Idk it is just a bizarre choice to destroy the part of the series that made it so great. I am glad you can enjoy the game still though. Thanks for the discussion man
Literally translated from German, Neils last name "DruckMann" means "pressure man". Don´t know how I came up with this, but kinda fits...
Guess Naughty Dog likes crunching their poor employees
@@saucytendies is channel dead, boi? No uploads for 11 months
@@ВладиславБулаев-л3э eh I've just been really busy with work and haven't felt like making a video on anything haha
I can't believe he pushed out Amy Hening, a competent woman just because she didn't agree with him. That's what "creative differences" means, yes? It's also disturbing that he can sympathize with Abby, and thinks revenge is such strong motivation. Maybe for him it is.
I will say that she got forced out isn't confirmed, but I think she was. I don't think anyone would willingly leave the final game in the series that was your baby to someone else.
I belive there is a version of the game that he sold us. I still think that the OG story was that Dina was going to die and we had sections where we play as Ellie and Joel. But Joel has Tommy as a companion and Ellie had Jesse.
No, Neil said in a recent interview that joel dying early was always the plan when he decided to do a sequel. Dina was just a red herring. I never thought Dina was gonna die to begin with since that’s not a compelling reason to encourage the player to get revenge.
Honestly...I thought this was the case
@@Ryan-cs3uc For the player, its not compelling. Maybe for Ellie but then again from most of trailers and even the launch trailer it seemed that Joel and Ellie were going to do this journey together.
Jonathan Mercado yea, it was deliberately misleading. I’m ok with it to some extent but I completely see why people are upset with it because it can be really frustrating, not getting the exact experience that was marketed.
I think The Last of Us 2 could have explored Ellie's mother Anna and her father and perhaps a young Marlene just starting the fireflies as well. They could have explored the origins of the virus as well as Ellie's immunity but oh well. It's a missed opportunity.
Nice video bro, you explained it well.
Thanks doc
Its one thing to try to empathize with Abby for killing Joel, but to retcon the events of the first game to give Abby some justification is just insulting. You can tell Druckman really didn't give a sht about the intellect of the audience. The amount of leaps he expects us to take in order for his story to make sense.
Why would Joel do that? Just accept it.
How did Abby get into the theater? Just accept it.
Why is Abby literally bigger than the men in this game? Just accept it.
You really think throwing some puppies and kittens in my face would make me empathize with Abby and her butcher of a father? Just accept it.
Do you think none of us played the first game? Just accept it.
A vaccine, for a fungal infection? Just accept it.
Ellie is the only person ON EARTH that is immune? Just accept it.
Joel suddenly forgetting what he saw, read, and heard to advance your dumb narrative? Just accept it.
We're gonna let Tommy and Ellie go out of the kindness of our hearts (despite torturing POW's back at base)? Just accept it.
Mooks have families now? Just accept it.
Personal pet peeve with these games in general. What is it with gaming companies and altering guns to make them look less like what they are? WE KNOW thats an AK-47, wtf is up with the ugly ass thumbhole stock and bull barrel? Vepr's are extremely rare in the US and yet Abby somehow has one? Or they'll frequently step over BETTER guns and just take the ammo. Ammo cans and Hardigg cases galore, but you can't search any of them? A pump shotgun with a mare's leg? WHYY? Ellie literally walks over full stock shotguns and just picks of the ammo.
Ay, never click so fast when i see this
Good video mate
Yee
TLOU2 SPOILERS HERE: Great video mate! I' ve always wonder what would be of tlou2 with the presence of Bruce or Amy...I have recently finished my second run on Tlou2 and there is something I find really weird about Abby' s whole story: One just have to think about how 'little time' (around a year I think?) it took for Ellie (even she being so stubborn and rude) to realise that drawning Abby at that beach at the end would never bring her Joel back, BUT that is something that Abby could not do, even having a great family and friends (also Owen), even being safe from death by Joel, even having past more than 4 years after her father' s death, and living and in large group whom she has 'grown with', I mean, in sum, a place where she had 'everything' to not be built as a pycho or obsessed with hate contrary to Ellie, who lost everyone except Joel ("Swear it to me"). So in sum, to me, the way Abby tortures Joel, does not response to how a person that hates Joel would do, (unless she finds Joel let' s say weeks right after her father' s death at the most) BUT as that obsession Neil always had with his initial concept story, the one of 'Tess torturing Joel'. So somehow ALL the structure was constructed just to make possible that scene, which is ugly, tough and unrealistic, if we pay attention to how hate behaves over a person' s body, in this case Abby. Does not make sense that someone can have a normal routine, life, friends, everything, and after more than four years, suddenly finding Joel as droped by heaven she tortures him like that. No sense at all...I think he was so obsessed with that scene of torturing him that everything just turns over it all, not realising how unnatural it is to behave like that for four years, and suddenly killing Joel like that, just because they needed us to feel really angry...so the revenge structure makes sense. Again, great video mister ;)
Neils revenge plot idea could of been cool but I think he also saw how successful tlou was so he probably said “fuck it let’s make a second part with a complete different plot that doesn’t connect at all with the last”
It could have been so good man
He dosen't think like that. He is thinking EVERYTHING CAME FROM MY IDEA! So my idea has to work!?
For the crime of killing off Joel and Ellie and forcing the player to play as their killer, no game with Neil Druckmann's fingerprint on it will ever be successful again.
& you know what makes all this so messed up? As terrible as part 2 was. It winning goty only feeds Neil’s ego. There’s no hope for NaughtyDog
Leading up to the games launch, I thought a good idea would be leaving the characters from part one alone and focus on other survivors, maybe from Jackson too and how they ended up there while having Joel and Ellie cameo or even play a small part in part two.
Would have been a better idea for sure