I don't think nugiyen is at all salty about the current state of the game 😂. But anyway I'm super happy you pointed out the disconnect with the whole grinding loot vs grinding bosses thing, I was a bit confused by that coming from a studio called Grinding Gear Games.
This commentary by Nugi is, I think, the most eye opening modern-ARPG ted talks/dev-post-mortems that's i've seen in a while, since actual ChrisGGG talks.
this is very good, in depth commentary for the direction of the game in terms of player skill vs. accumulation of power through farming. didn't know they introduced vendor recepies because of racing to flatten out the power curve...
I feel like your take on them having to make decisions on whether the game is a loot game or an action game is silly, even the most action focused games like elden ring allow you to increase character power, often to a point where you can trivialize a fight, while also still being designed around action. Any fight can be beaten with very little damage and lots of skill, or high damage and less skill. This is even how it is in current poe. You can gear a character to the point where they can one shot a boss, but you can also kill a boss conventionally by learning mechanics. I just beat maven for the first time and even when I had like 5 million dps I lost the fight a few times before finally beating her after learning the fight. If I had 50 million dps I would have also beaten the fight, but you're given the option to outgear or outskill a fight. That's the cool thing about ubers too, you need both skill and crazy gear, testing your knowledge of both parts of the game.
There is a roguelike game coming where you design the path it takes like trowing rooms into a grid. Cant recall the name of it. Was in the recent Triple-I video.
Give Path of Achra a try, it’s very in line with your roguelike idea. You sort of know what you want to be at the start, but item drops are what help define what you become.
My main gripe post kitava is that if you’re naturally leveling through the campaign, staying within the zone level, you still won’t be able to equip most endgame items. So on a second character you have this awkward spot post kitava where you can’t actually wear your end game gear yet.
I really wanted to play Frostblades for a long time because i love the archetype of freezing everything etc. I absolutely hate the fact that i need totems to get so much mre damage for free. Just by putting them down. I agree what you said. Remove multis and make the normal skills better.
"A lot of CC think PoE 2 is gonna flop & hopefully they put all their effort back into PoE 1 so we can keep playing it" Ohh, how wrong you are.. PoE 2 is gonna breaks records. I've played a few seasons of PoE 1 but it never exited me the way PoE 2 does.
It seems crazy to me that they still come up with huge endgame reworks and big crafting mechanics in PoE1 when PoE2 is almost done. It's been announced 5 years ago and people were expecting it 3 years ago, they should've just scrapped Necropolis and made it PoE2's first league.
I will be honest and kinda destroy every concept anyone has. Beta PoE was better than any other PoE. Beta poe was slow, gear was extremely hard to get and I will be honest 100% if I could go back and play 3 acts with normal cruel and merc I would. Nothing, I have ever done in poe has come close to merc ledge farming with 6 people. Something about it was so mindless but fun and extremely rippy with the idol boss. You add is the extremely rippy leagues they made! Invasion league was the GOAT. Until PoE reaches that point again it wont be restored to the golden days of PoE.
You should wait with commentating a question before it is answered, also, audio levels between the interview and you are way to high, i get hearing loss hearing you talk, but cant even hear the interview.
What GGG gets wrong about Elden Ring is that 90% of players skip bosses and farm souls/items until they are relatively strong before tackling bosses. Elden Ring is very open, unlike poe, which is very linear. You can skip the first major elden ring boss fight for AGES (morgott) and go to entirely new zones. Also, many people cheese elden ring with magic on horseback BS. If you forced all players to actually play elden ring like it was a dark souls game, many would have not enjoyed it.
Dark souls 3 sale an huge amount of copies and Sekiro even more. From my perspective, Elden ring sales higher not because people could cheese or skipping boss but simply because of the open world aspect of it like in Breath of the wild where you can go where you want. Of course if people have hard time they will farm to make it easier. I don't think GGG get that wrongs, what they want is a real combat where you can't completly trivializing it, unlike Poe where you can one tap mob or don't have to dodge but more a Souls's playthrough. You get what he was saying wrong, he doesn't mean you can't prepare for a fight but he thinks you should try atleast 2 more times before give up and go farm again, fight shouldn't be just stats's check. You should ask yourself " did I die because of my skill or because I was too much undergear ? "
@@mesmercricket6720 Sure we will see, however if there is something that POE is not is a Souls game. Might work for them but its a different story if you want to play POE
6:00 this take is amazing, i would love to get rid of this strange "negative reward" after beating kitava. it feels wrong...but tying res penalties to map tier is actually a great idea! i can even see a linear penalty that gets worse the higher you go. -60% to all on t16, and maybe -5% per tier downwards.
I like it too, but what about "side content" like delve, heist, or even sanctum ? Nearly everything would need to embrace this curving difficulty. But as of right now, I think the kitava nerfs is one of the wort points in a new player experience. You were fine, and then suddently the trash mobs in the next act begin to rip you apart, because you never cared about elemental resistance until then.
Really hope POE2 stays slow. The skills they have shown necessitates long life spans for enemies. If they speed the game up it ruins the fun design they've came up with.
Jonathan bouncing off Morrowind and finishing Skyrim shows his core preference in the balance between stats and action. Nothing wrong with this as his preference. Companies drift from their founding vision and it causes them to fail though. Jonathan is a technical innovator and Chris was the visionary. There's a difference and both types of people are needed. Hopefully there are enough people on the design team who are grounded to give us Oblivion to Morrowind. Bethesda drifted in the "action game" direction as well over time. Skyrim is in a different genre from Morrowind almost. Morrowind has superior story/magic to later titles. Losing levitate was like losing a core part of the identity to Morrowind. You walk out of Seyda Neen and get the scroll of Icarian Flight along with the guy's experimental journal. Magic felt weird and fun---like the world of Morrowind. In order to make POE 2 balanced they will have to remove RPG elements---just like Dark Souls. It is the streamlined issue you brought up Nugi with racing.
I would be surprised if the clear speed in poe2 is as slow as the start when i invest 100 hours into a character. Like you said non comparable. People should look at early path of exile like 8 years ago act 1 gameplay and look how slow that is.
I feel for the PoE devs when it comes to bugs and rewards in new leagues. As a dev, I know it’s incredibly difficult to keep all interactions in mind. If you want to deliver ambitious content you have to take risks. That’s not to say they shouldn’t fix em ofc. There’s also a second layer there where the initial design of most leagues is more conservative so people actually finding “broken strats” is a byproduct of the nerfs to monsters and buffs to rewards that we tend to expect from week 1 or 2 of a league.
14:25 - 14:50 We will have to see how No Rest for the Wicked does, with its goal to fuse ARPG + Dark Souls. GGG's devs will see as well. No Rest for the Wicked will without any doubt have an impact on PoE2's development. Considering that NRftW's devs also made the Ori games - which Jonathan Rogers lists among his favorite games, it's like the stars are bloody aligning.
From what I have seen is that NRftW is a souls like with an isometric camera and the demos showed that gear and stats are quite simple, whereas PoE's stats are much more complex. From the interview, it sounds like PoE2 is trying to be a souls like but with ARPG customization, and I'm not sure if it's even possible to do that correctly. Either gear matters a lot and therefore skill isn't as much of a requirement, or it's the other way around. Uber Bosses from my perspective are the only time when both gear and skill matters, cause getting gear to kill Uber bosses is doable, but getting the gear to completely trivialize the fight is quite hard.
@@SpitzkopfRandy Having all the bosses be uber-like from the very beginning of PoE2 will probably help. Based on the March-2024 demo footage, they seem to be going in that direction, with different mechanics for all the bosses and all. Not to say they won't allow some builds to have an easier/harder time than others, since some bosses do have a Weakness to some damage type (and the occasional resistance + super-resistance). And the Map versions of the Campaign bosses will be made harder via adding more to their existing mechanics.
@@SpitzkopfRandy Yeap Uber boss difficult seems to be the only way to make skill and items matters. You just need them to be a bit simpler, it's can be good
why dont melle players have some kind of a "buff" built in , that reduces damage when theyre near the enemy boss , and the futher they are from it they take more damage not to much offcourse
Because it's impossible, it's not diablo where the class are limited to melee or distance skills. You can play ranged on a warrior and melee on a ranger.
From Nugi's reaction to the interview, I get the impression that he would rather have Vampire Survivors "gameplay" in an ARPG. At that point we can fully transition into an idle game Observe: You do most of your build planning and theory crafting in Path of Bulding, then you hit the green checkmark - take your hands off of the keyboard and lets the idle game play a few maps for you. If you want you can repeatedly click a few key hotkeys as fast as possible (possibly even piano flask) to gain bonuses to your idle gameplay. After that you return to your PoB like interface to hit play and do some more maps or you modify your build with items that dropped. Yes, this is a strawman, but I think it is pretty illustrative of whether or not your are gameplay-first focused - or rather would be content in PoB 90% of the time until you need to collect more loot.
I think Nugy, unlike Ziz, is probably one of the few Poe's streamers who want to play a game when action really matter and not just POB. I really hope GGG don't listen all the feedback which want to turn Poe 2 into poe 1 because now Poe 1 is just a glorified vampire survivor/cookie clicker.
17:40 the scaling should probably come from other sources and not so much from the item itself. In some soulslikes, you need to use a large quantity of items(smithing stones; titanite shards) on a weapon to make it good and there are different versions for each tier, that drop in higher level areas. Introducing a bunch of new items, that take up space in stashtabs, is their favorite hobby anyways, so that would be the solution. I guess it's like the quality enhancing stones in poe, just different kinds of them with tiers and all stats on the item would be affected/multiplied by the quality. They could also make it so you can find one of the best uniques in the game at the first boss but make it so it needs to be upgraded like that to make it useful
Tbh I'm not a fan of Josh and the way he's doing those interviews but I'm glad we got some new info from Jonathan. As for PoE2 itself. Honestly I'm kinda exhausted of PoE after so many years. There are legacy issues, bloat, itemization problems and overall toxicity of content creators - So I am hyped af for PoE2 and how it's gonna refresh PoE franchise. Pretty much every interview with Jonathan is making me more and more exited.
I don't think nugiyen is at all salty about the current state of the game 😂. But anyway I'm super happy you pointed out the disconnect with the whole grinding loot vs grinding bosses thing, I was a bit confused by that coming from a studio called Grinding Gear Games.
Haha, I might be a little jaded myself atm it's hard to fight against. But I do believe we'll get a fantastic product once PoE2 finally ships
Chris gonna beat you up and steal your MTG cards.
This commentary by Nugi is, I think, the most eye opening modern-ARPG ted talks/dev-post-mortems that's i've seen in a while, since actual ChrisGGG talks.
Hot take, when starting a character in POE2 you shouldn't know what your build will be like by time you get to endgame.
this is very good, in depth commentary for the direction of the game in terms of player skill vs. accumulation of power through farming. didn't know they introduced vendor recepies because of racing to flatten out the power curve...
I feel like your take on them having to make decisions on whether the game is a loot game or an action game is silly, even the most action focused games like elden ring allow you to increase character power, often to a point where you can trivialize a fight, while also still being designed around action. Any fight can be beaten with very little damage and lots of skill, or high damage and less skill. This is even how it is in current poe. You can gear a character to the point where they can one shot a boss, but you can also kill a boss conventionally by learning mechanics. I just beat maven for the first time and even when I had like 5 million dps I lost the fight a few times before finally beating her after learning the fight. If I had 50 million dps I would have also beaten the fight, but you're given the option to outgear or outskill a fight. That's the cool thing about ubers too, you need both skill and crazy gear, testing your knowledge of both parts of the game.
There is a roguelike game coming where you design the path it takes like trowing rooms into a grid. Cant recall the name of it. Was in the recent Triple-I video.
Cryptical path ?
@@isaal7118 could be yea
Give Path of Achra a try, it’s very in line with your roguelike idea. You sort of know what you want to be at the start, but item drops are what help define what you become.
My main gripe post kitava is that if you’re naturally leveling through the campaign, staying within the zone level, you still won’t be able to equip most endgame items. So on a second character you have this awkward spot post kitava where you can’t actually wear your end game gear yet.
huh so just like poe 1 when u are lvl 65 and cant wear 85 gear, weird right?
I really wanted to play Frostblades for a long time because i love the archetype of freezing everything etc.
I absolutely hate the fact that i need totems to get so much mre damage for free. Just by putting them down.
I agree what you said. Remove multis and make the normal skills better.
Peoples play flicker strike - only becouse it autotargets and teleprots you to enemy and it feels great or causes you motion sickness
"A lot of CC think PoE 2 is gonna flop & hopefully they put all their effort back into PoE 1 so we can keep playing it"
Ohh, how wrong you are.. PoE 2 is gonna breaks records.
I've played a few seasons of PoE 1 but it never exited me the way PoE 2 does.
It seems crazy to me that they still come up with huge endgame reworks and big crafting mechanics in PoE1 when PoE2 is almost done. It's been announced 5 years ago and people were expecting it 3 years ago, they should've just scrapped Necropolis and made it PoE2's first league.
Would be nice if they could find a way to make the game difficult other than lowering resistances seems extremely lazy and smooth brain game design.
I will be honest and kinda destroy every concept anyone has. Beta PoE was better than any other PoE. Beta poe was slow, gear was extremely hard to get and I will be honest 100% if I could go back and play 3 acts with normal cruel and merc I would. Nothing, I have ever done in poe has come close to merc ledge farming with 6 people. Something about it was so mindless but fun and extremely rippy with the idol boss. You add is the extremely rippy leagues they made! Invasion league was the GOAT. Until PoE reaches that point again it wont be restored to the golden days of PoE.
You should wait with commentating a question before it is answered, also, audio levels between the interview and you are way to high, i get hearing loss hearing you talk, but cant even hear the interview.
What GGG gets wrong about Elden Ring is that 90% of players skip bosses and farm souls/items until they are relatively strong before tackling bosses. Elden Ring is very open, unlike poe, which is very linear. You can skip the first major elden ring boss fight for AGES (morgott) and go to entirely new zones.
Also, many people cheese elden ring with magic on horseback BS. If you forced all players to actually play elden ring like it was a dark souls game, many would have not enjoyed it.
Dark souls 3 sale an huge amount of copies and Sekiro even more.
From my perspective, Elden ring sales higher not because people could cheese or skipping boss but simply because of the open world aspect of it like in Breath of the wild where you can go where you want. Of course if people have hard time they will farm to make it easier.
I don't think GGG get that wrongs, what they want is a real combat where you can't completly trivializing it, unlike Poe where you can one tap mob or don't have to dodge but more a Souls's playthrough.
You get what he was saying wrong, he doesn't mean you can't prepare for a fight but he thinks you should try atleast 2 more times before give up and go farm again, fight shouldn't be just stats's check. You should ask yourself " did I die because of my skill or because I was too much undergear ? "
It is crazy that he thinks action is more important than loot, this exposes the fact that this will be a Souls game and not truly a POE game
We, and GGG, will see how No Rest for the Wicked does in fusing Souls-like + ARPG together.
@@mesmercricket6720 Sure we will see, however if there is something that POE is not is a Souls game. Might work for them but its a different story if you want to play POE
It's crazy to think playing a game is more important than picking up a stat block?
@@mesmercricket6720 Played the game No rest for the Wiced and not impressed at all... Super slow not at all a POE game like as expected
6:00 this take is amazing, i would love to get rid of this strange "negative reward" after beating kitava. it feels wrong...but tying res penalties to map tier is actually a great idea! i can even see a linear penalty that gets worse the higher you go. -60% to all on t16, and maybe -5% per tier downwards.
I like it too, but what about "side content" like delve, heist, or even sanctum ? Nearly everything would need to embrace this curving difficulty. But as of right now, I think the kitava nerfs is one of the wort points in a new player experience. You were fine, and then suddently the trash mobs in the next act begin to rip you apart, because you never cared about elemental resistance until then.
Really hope POE2 stays slow. The skills they have shown necessitates long life spans for enemies. If they speed the game up it ruins the fun design they've came up with.
Jonathan bouncing off Morrowind and finishing Skyrim shows his core preference in the balance between stats and action. Nothing wrong with this as his preference. Companies drift from their founding vision and it causes them to fail though. Jonathan is a technical innovator and Chris was the visionary. There's a difference and both types of people are needed. Hopefully there are enough people on the design team who are grounded to give us Oblivion to Morrowind. Bethesda drifted in the "action game" direction as well over time. Skyrim is in a different genre from Morrowind almost. Morrowind has superior story/magic to later titles. Losing levitate was like losing a core part of the identity to Morrowind. You walk out of Seyda Neen and get the scroll of Icarian Flight along with the guy's experimental journal. Magic felt weird and fun---like the world of Morrowind.
In order to make POE 2 balanced they will have to remove RPG elements---just like Dark Souls. It is the streamlined issue you brought up Nugi with racing.
I would be surprised if the clear speed in poe2 is as slow as the start when i invest 100 hours into a character. Like you said non comparable. People should look at early path of exile like 8 years ago act 1 gameplay and look how slow that is.
I feel for the PoE devs when it comes to bugs and rewards in new leagues. As a dev, I know it’s incredibly difficult to keep all interactions in mind. If you want to deliver ambitious content you have to take risks. That’s not to say they shouldn’t fix em ofc.
There’s also a second layer there where the initial design of most leagues is more conservative so people actually finding “broken strats” is a byproduct of the nerfs to monsters and buffs to rewards that we tend to expect from week 1 or 2 of a league.
14:25 - 14:50
We will have to see how No Rest for the Wicked does, with its goal to fuse ARPG + Dark Souls.
GGG's devs will see as well.
No Rest for the Wicked will without any doubt have an impact on PoE2's development.
Considering that NRftW's devs also made the Ori games - which Jonathan Rogers lists among his favorite games, it's like the stars are bloody aligning.
From what I have seen is that NRftW is a souls like with an isometric camera and the demos showed that gear and stats are quite simple, whereas PoE's stats are much more complex. From the interview, it sounds like PoE2 is trying to be a souls like but with ARPG customization, and I'm not sure if it's even possible to do that correctly. Either gear matters a lot and therefore skill isn't as much of a requirement, or it's the other way around. Uber Bosses from my perspective are the only time when both gear and skill matters, cause getting gear to kill Uber bosses is doable, but getting the gear to completely trivialize the fight is quite hard.
@@SpitzkopfRandy
Having all the bosses be uber-like from the very beginning of PoE2 will probably help.
Based on the March-2024 demo footage, they seem to be going in that direction, with different mechanics for all the bosses and all. Not to say they won't allow some builds to have an easier/harder time than others, since some bosses do have a Weakness to some damage type (and the occasional resistance + super-resistance).
And the Map versions of the Campaign bosses will be made harder via adding more to their existing mechanics.
@@SpitzkopfRandy Yeap Uber boss difficult seems to be the only way to make skill and items matters. You just need them to be a bit simpler, it's can be good
why dont melle players have some kind of a "buff" built in , that reduces damage when theyre near the enemy boss , and the futher they are from it they take more damage not to much offcourse
Because it's impossible, it's not diablo where the class are limited to melee or distance skills. You can play ranged on a warrior and melee on a ranger.
then implement that buff on melee especific skills ?@@InpulsaBrokenHeart
@@mateussousa8002 almost like old fortify.
Guess why they changed it
From Nugi's reaction to the interview, I get the impression that he would rather have Vampire Survivors "gameplay" in an ARPG.
At that point we can fully transition into an idle game Observe:
You do most of your build planning and theory crafting in Path of Bulding, then you hit the green checkmark - take your hands off of the keyboard and lets the idle game play a few maps for you.
If you want you can repeatedly click a few key hotkeys as fast as possible (possibly even piano flask) to gain bonuses to your idle gameplay.
After that you return to your PoB like interface to hit play and do some more maps or you modify your build with items that dropped.
Yes, this is a strawman, but I think it is pretty illustrative of whether or not your are gameplay-first focused - or rather would be content in PoB 90% of the time until you need to collect more loot.
very good point
Nugi is actually really looking forward to the pace of PoE2, so yes, you ARE strawmanning him.
I think Nugy, unlike Ziz, is probably one of the few Poe's streamers who want to play a game when action really matter and not just POB.
I really hope GGG don't listen all the feedback which want to turn Poe 2 into poe 1 because now Poe 1 is just a glorified vampire survivor/cookie clicker.
I'm with you on most of this Nugi
17:40 the scaling should probably come from other sources and not so much from the item itself.
In some soulslikes, you need to use a large quantity of items(smithing stones; titanite shards) on a weapon to make it good and there are different versions for each tier, that drop in higher level areas. Introducing a bunch of new items, that take up space in stashtabs, is their favorite hobby anyways, so that would be the solution.
I guess it's like the quality enhancing stones in poe, just different kinds of them with tiers and all stats on the item would be affected/multiplied by the quality. They could also make it so you can find one of the best uniques in the game at the first boss but make it so it needs to be upgraded like that to make it useful
I’m glad Nugi is small creator with little influence because his ideas are terrible for POE 2
Hope you have a better day so the need to be rude to streamers for no reason disappears. 🤦🏼♀️
Tbh I'm not a fan of Josh and the way he's doing those interviews but I'm glad we got some new info from Jonathan. As for PoE2 itself.
Honestly I'm kinda exhausted of PoE after so many years. There are legacy issues, bloat, itemization problems and overall toxicity of content creators - So I am hyped af for PoE2 and how it's gonna refresh PoE franchise. Pretty much every interview with Jonathan is making me more and more exited.
Yeah found him a bit annoying/obnoxious/pretentious. I liked his interview with Chris a while back.
@@truuuupR too much “acting” in this interview. Esp. that D4 bad bait, it's so childish. I dislike that part so much!