As a farmer I totally understand everything you're trying to crystalize for the viewers out there. People always seem to just KNOW what YOU need to do. Over generalization is a killer of many a business. The last thing most small business owners need is another business segment or "project".
I have FDM and Resin 3D printers. I use them for personal use and sometimes print for my friends. It is A LOT of work. Design in CAD, then support the entire model correctly or it fails during print = complete restart/redo (people literally hire "supporters" because it is so tedious and annoying). Then the fumes, heating, exhaust, chemicals for cleaning/curing, paper towels, etc, etc. Then the HOURS and HOURS of waiting. Not as fast and high tech as people think.
This. As for FDM, there are a lot of warping issues and bed leveling, and post processing is a nightmare. I did some cosplay props and the PLA material is so freaking hard to sand off, but using other materias require higher temperatures and a dedicated enclosure which is expensive and prone to more errors... And the fumes, people said FDM wasn't as poisonous as Resin but no, it covers the whole room, you need the thing to be off the house or have some air extraction or something. Something NOBODY says, the energy bill. It comes out that having and maintaining a piece of copper at 230° for over 12 hours is not cheap. And you HAVE to know 3D modeling, Blender and/or CAD. You will have to either do designs from scratch, or be able to fix/mod what you find. And depending on the country, these machines are not cheap or some materials are unavailable. Good STL files are HEAVY, so you will have to buy some hard drives, trust me. And so on, and so on. I not particularly regret buying the machine, but my enthusiasm of using it has severely decreased in a couple of months, is such a chore People say 3D printer is cheaper than buying GW, but man. All the time, energy, the machines costs, energy costs, and you aren't really getting the real deal, it will always look worse imo. It's better to buy a box of the thing you like and enjoy it instead of jumping through hoops to not get the thing you like. Even if you get your hands on GW scans, there are so many issues with them. But I already made this rant really long so figure it out
Design in CAD and doing your own supports are not a standard use case for the average hobbyist looking to use 3D printers to print models. Buy & print from creators who have already done all that work, from there you only need to worry about calibrating your printer. HOURS and HOURS of waiting - you don’t have anything better to do than watch the printer? This might be one of the more melodramatic anti-3D print posts I’ve seen in a while. No denying there is work in it, but what you describe is the creator process not the user process
@The-Avien Just because YOU think it's melodramatic, doesn't mean it is. Do you even own 3D printers to know what you're talking about? Or just making stuff up to sound smart 🤓? Who said I "watched" the printer? That's more assumptions from you. And I described the user and creator process. Something you'd understand if you knew what you were talking about.
@@foxhoundms9051 it is melodramatic and your hissy fit of a response kind of shows you’re prone to melodrama. Your description was creator focused, you can try to sell it as both but the average user doesn’t need to ever look at CAD or in depth supporting unless they actually want to design their own stuff and sure a lot of people decide to try and modify sculpts they get or try their hand at design, it’s not a necessity and there are plenty of people who just subscribe to Patreon and print off their pre supported stls every month without any of the hassle you describe. Sure the part about fumes and heating and paper towels yes, I apologise that part is common to every user but come on, you specifically called out hiring a support engineer - and you’re telling me you weren’t mostly talking as a creator? Sure. My comment about watching the machines was a joke about the fact that you made it seem like such a big deal by the capitalisation of “HOURS and HOURS of waiting” because it’s such a non issue I find it hilarious you’d even mention it. You set up the prints and go live your life. Then presto, you’ve been hobbling while making the dinner, or sleeping, or bringing the kids to the playground. To answer your direct questions as to my experience, yes I own two resin printers currently, a Mars 4 Ultra which was an upgrade from my original Anycubic Photon and a Saturn 4 Ultra. I house these machines in a purpose built and temperature controlled enclosure with extractor fan connected directly to the printers within the enclosure. I also own a Bambu lab p1s FDM printer which replaced both my previous anycubic mega s and creality ender 3 because frankly the Bambu is so effortless that it alone outperforms the other two machines together because the downtime due to bed levelling and calibrations are not a factor. So while 3D printing isn’t plug and play, and there is a learning curve and it certainly isn’t for everyone, posts like yours make it sound more daunting and out of reach than it actually is.
Love watching your videos. No longer play warhammer, but I like your insight and your sarcastic humor. A partnership with a 3D printer in the local area might be the only practical sense especially for bits.
Really interesting video- from the sounds of it, the reasons for/ against starting a 3D printing service in your hobby shop are the same reasons you could make for/ against adding a gas station to your hobby shop. “If you had the space, and the upfront investment required, and you could hire someone to run it for you, then maybe you could make it work? But you’d just have a different business attached to your hobby shop”
If you value your time at all, I think 3d printing is probably even more expensive than buying GW plastic. I'll say the big advantage is, if you are doing an army with a lot of duplicate stuff, like say you want 20 tanks, that is where you're going to feel good when you print them out for the cost of 3 plastic kits. Or if you want 200 guys for a diorama. There's also some 3d printed stuff that just looks way better than GW stuff. It's easy to forget because GW release so much stuff now, but they still sell some pretty lame kits for their ultra premium price. 3D printing feels a lot like painting commissions, always seems like such a great idea until you actually put a value on your time.
Agreed on all of your points there. My local university has a makerspace, and I can tell you that they are constantly busy with upkeep, repair and basic maintenance. While both resin and FDM technology has improved over the past few years, these are not simply plug-n-play. When a component fails, that is a tangible cost in time and money. I print at home in my workshop, and I printed some figures for a friend's birthday a couple years back, but even a small project like that requires a good deal of time for setting up the files, setting up the machines, printing, adjusting and re-printing for the inevitable defects ("Damn, lost that skeleton's arm there..Time to see if a different support setting helps..") , cleaning up the prints, and cleaning the machines. Trying to do that on top of the hundred and six other things that go into a day of running a store? That does not seem very sustainable at all.
I got connected ro your videos through your visits with Ash, and am glad i stayed. Now i listen to you guys on the eay to work as nuch as you produce the videos. Love your discussions. I think you are is a tight spot honestly. In one way your gamers who love the games. You play and advocate for them, but your also retailers too which means you have notivations to advocte and advertise for games in order to feed you and your families. I dont think most people understand the pressures of owning your own business. And this is why you sometimes get very spicey responses because most only see one facet. You guys do an excellent job of explaing all sides. I dont know when i will make it up to our Northern cousins in Canada, but i eill definywork in a visit when i do at least to say hi, and buy a few things to support.
Some commenters have the belief that because they have a guy selling prints locally he must be making money. Our local guys main business is 3d printing for Hollywood movies, not printing armies for people. I also wonder what the health concerns are for the 3D printers if they are setup in a non ventilated area.
printing exclusively for wargamers is not a good business plan in the long term. Most people who want 3d print of wargaming stuff is because they find the real stuff too expensive so they won't be willing to pay premium price for miniatures. My main source of revenue for my 3d printing business is printing prototypes for a few local tech companies, the 3d printing wargaming miniatures part for local people is nothing compared to that.
The greatest thing in the last year or so also is that FDM printers are getting a lot closer to the resin quality if you don't mind the printing times being longer. That and they aren't as fragile as Resin in most cases if you aren't mixing flexible resin into the regular resin. But more I see 3D printing as one of the most innovative technologies pushing other technologies. Like the new method of pushing plastic into a thick viscous sludge that takes away the complete need for supports. Or say industrial size printers used to 3d print concrete. Even printers printing chocolate. the use of it is far beyond okay, here is some mini's I can print. I do, but mostly because my friends are into games like OPR more than warhammer cause we don't have a store anywhere nearby and it takes less models to play games. Then I have two walls in my living room of ten to twelve shelves full of board games I've put time and money into. Its all a hobby for me. Accepting its going to cost and take time, to spend the time to get better at what you are doing, even as it is with painting and getting good playing the games.
The one hobby shop in our region that did 3d Printing, is the only hobby shop in our area that went out of business, and it had a monopoly in the city it was it. I don’t think it is causally related, but it does come to my mind when I think of it.
One thing my LGS does for 3D printing is they advertise the services of someone in the community who does it a lot and is really good at it. I don't know all the details, but I imagine they take a small cut of what he sells.
Probably just community building. Unless the 3d printer can be working at scale (highly unlikely) then he isn't taking a big cut out of their business and supplies the types of models the LGS can't realistically. Pointing customers to specialists who supply what the store can't makes the customer more likely to come back to the store because they trust them to honest and knowledgeable.
@@Azazel-zv4fy I imagine a scenario where the FLGS and CommunityDude123 have an agreement where CommunityDude123 can bag up some 3D printed bits and have them for sale inside the FLGS and the FLGS gets a % cut for these sale. FLGS can control what they sell. (i.e. Yes to alternate Blood Angel shoulder pads, No to actual Blood Angel Jump Pack Marines that would compete with GW product on the wall) At any point the customer can skip the FLGS and deal directly with CommunityDude123 for whatever CD123 wants to print/sell. I imagine that once CD123 gets a lot of incoming orders, and sees how much time/energy they have to spend to print/deliver these orders, they will be less willing/able to charge pennies on the dollar for their effort. There will come a point in time where they can't print/deliver things fast enough and realize that this is taking over their life and they are no longer a hobbyist having fun playing with toy soldiers, and/or feel they need to charge a lot more. While 3D printed models/units/armies might be 'cheaper' if I have to wait a month for you to print my army, maybe it's worth just buying actual product from the FLGS today and start building it tonight and having it assembled and ready to play by the weekend and I'll get to painting it when I have time.
@@Azazel-zv4fy this is absolutely the way to do it, some schizo who is wildcating a printer bank is way better than putting a carcinogen machine in store and having a goon constantly futz with it.
One thing that's always hard to get across is just how much work and how much money is processed in a store every year. Even as a newer smaller shop we're working in the hundreds of thousands with our distributors, so I get what you mean by a thousand isn't a lot. As for production in a store, I would agree with you that trying to print in the store isn't a great idea but if you're doing more than one line or can partner with another business that does do printing it becomes much more accessible. For example we partner and invest in a small company that has all kinds of laser cutters, printers, and so on to do merchandise services for indie content creators. The revenue on that is tiny but it does give us exposure to larger audiences through their audience and if we can scale that business correctly it can be very lucrative.
@@chuckocenasek5651 It's just a question of if the sculptor has time to play "whack-a-mole" with the said sellers (mostly they don't / can't). But in a world where 3D printing "proxies" (not to say blatant copies of the miniatures) for a GW army, morality of those who do produce them isn't already that high in the first place. After all, if you're looking for cheaper, there's always a deeper hole to jump into. Stealing is the cheapest, in the end.
And to bring it back to Trench Crusade, the kickstarter didn't have a Merchant tier. As stated in the video, there isn't a legal means of selling these prints. Trench Crusade can look like a best case scenario... so hot right now, available only as 3d prints, but the fact that they don't allow sales of their product means they're so much of a Goldilocks zone that they don't actually exist!
I have a lgs, and i'm printing as an hobby for years. I've considered to offer 3d print in the shop, but considering the cost, and time spent: supporting, cleaning, curing, elettricity, etc. It's not that cheaper than buying the mini in plastic. If you factor the cost of a merchant subscription or rights to print and sell, it becomes straight cheaper to buy plastic instead of printing. Where it works is for cosplay, or art projects where the customer has the right of the 3d file cause they've sculpted themselves, and they need a pro equip to print
Once you guys set up the 3D Printer Workshop in the store, the next step to offer is a miniature painting service where you guys paint your customers' Warhammer 40K miniatures for them. Think of all those customers who will take advantage of the extra service!
You didn't touch on the "competing with online 3d printers" angle... If people don't want to print at home, but want the printed models, I imagine the online 3d marketplaces would be their first visit, not a FLGS.
printing is a crazy amount of work. And as much as people will say it isn't, its INCREDIBLY dangerous in the long-term if you're not doing it right. And people want the models to be priced like they printed it themselves while being expert quality and strength. It's just not worth it for most shops to do it.
I totally agree with all you guys said about this and it’s always great to hear more on the biz-nas side of things. Just what little 3d printer hobbyists have done for me lately has been a trying and frustrating experience! Some of the established ones online have been far better. But still the technology isn’t quite there yet. I mean it’s there but for all the reasons you mentioned and few more it’s not. Thanks again for your perspective!
Right now I think the best way to incorporate a game that uses 3D printed models into the pre-existing retail space would be through the implementation of a payment system that allows retail stores to collect a margin on online STL sales that are billed to addresses near their geographical location. In exchange the store organizes and runs events for the customers of the game. This would include checking to make sure that the people turning up to play the game have a valid single user license to print the models in the first place, which would allow them to play at official events for paying customers.
there are many people using resin printers without proper ventilation or correctly dealing with the waste resin and isopropyl which is not supposed to be dumped down the drain or sent to landfill
I saw a video from MiniWargaming about just how complex it is. The PPE the guys were wearing alone gives away why you dont see resin printers near the public. Until the day that 3d printers are non-toxic; can produce a plate of minis within 15 mins perfectly everytime. Then it might be possible to run the numbers and see if it’s worth it.
One of the hobby shops in our area does 3D printing, but they run it as a pure printing service. The client has to buy the stl, the shop can slice the stl for you (for a fee) and then you pay a price to have them print your model for you. You have to find and buy your own stl's and they print your file for you
I figured it would be extremely difficult to do 3D printing in-store, but you can't swing a dead cat in the comment section without hitting somebody mentioning their local store having a whole operation going successfully. However they manage it.
I have been holding off on a home one for sake of space, toxic material and fumes so while I would love a local store I could pick up prints from I completely get why they don't want to.
Primarily I am using 3d prints for alt sculpts for Legion (ie Hoth gear) but I still buy the base mini as if you don't support the smaller games they risk failure, or options not available in games. Or scenery, and basing bits.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the cost of essentially licensing everything you would need to print. In order to resell anything you need permission and that's not cheap. Buying an STL is not the same as owning the rights to it
There are some (not all) STL sellers that have two different purchase options. The purchase for private use license, and the purchase for "print to sell" (which is obviously a more expensive license). So there are means to do it as a service without going to "piracy" route.
We're gonna make a go at it in our 6500 sq feet store, with both filament and resin. We have a small room with our resin printers, fulled vented to the roof as well as having air purifiers running constantly. The learning curve on printing is high, but we've been in it for the last eight years. I wouldn't recommend it for someone just starting with printing, for sure.
I like 3D printing for unique accessories and terrain pieces. I think it is impractical at scale currently for a shop. To use a real life example, I had a stl file I provided a shop. The shop is highly skilled at 3d printing. We had to have several pms and photos of results to verify everything look correct. The terrain piece created was extremely well done and cost me $50. It was a large terrain piece. This took several weeks to get done. In that time, I purchased a Malifaux master core box, forget which one, which was also roughly $50. For that, the shop just had to click a button to add it to their order. Now for the shop, the second process is the more sustainable method to sell miniatures. The terrain piece is awesome though.
Completely agree! Got a resin as well as fdm printer (both premium models). FDM is only suitable for chunky models and terrain. Resin is awesome for minis however.... There is so much time commitement necessary. And this shit is dangerous as hell. In my opinion the majority of the printing community underestimates the dangers... I only print outside in a shed (still full protective gear on with mask face mask e.g.), which means i cant print for almost 5 months (winter time). My printer is heated, still theres weeks without printing. I would never suggest to go the printing route as a store. If you want to print, do a seperate business and rent a hall... something far away from people.
While I don't think hobby shops should run a 3D printing service, there is no good reason not to sell 3D printing supplies. As you say, you have '3d printing people' coming to the store, you may as well have something for them to buy. I think many people buy molded plastic minis and 3D print stuff. I know I do. Especially for historical games like Bolt Action, or Saga the minis are just as cheap to buy as they are to print (for me this is the $1-$2 / figure threshold) and at that point I just buy the figures.
I see a few comments about Trade Licenses. Some Replies advocate using the STLs to print _without_ the license. Do those posters also advocate selling recasts?
I've never understood that line of questioning. Asking your FLGS why they don't 3D print stuff is like asking your local diner why they don't keep chickens to save on buying eggs
How does the whole “I bought the STL” thing work? I assume that the basic purchase allows me to print an unlimited number of the model in question FOR MY OWN USE? But does it allow me to print models for retail sale? I’ve heard that there are “retail stl licenses” for people who are running an Etsy business.
In almost all cases the files are for your personal use. Obviously they can't stop you from printing for your friends etc. But with a business you could open yourself up to a lawsuit
I have a simple little FDM printer and it's great for banging out low rez terrain and movement trays and such. Would get a resin one but I don't have the space/setup to do that safely and also I don't need a whole other hobby. Resin minis are nice (not a general replacement for plastic but good for certain things) but here's the thing - etsy is full of dudes who will print me stuff at competitive prices (because they don't need to pay for a store) and just ship them to me. When I want a resin something, I can get that already. When I want to go to a store and look at stuff or talk to someone or even just pop in and out and have a thing today, I can also get that already. I am not seeing a huge gaping hole in my life that would be solved by a game store full of resin printers.
Few questions come to mind, "where am I going to put enough machines to make this worthwhile?" and "how do we ventilate the area to keep the smell and fumes from filling the space?"
I think one of the benefits for an LGS regarding Trench Crusade is that since the game is technically miniatures agnostic then it encourages the people in the trench crusade community to kitbash. That means a ton of people buying boxes of wargames Atlantic ww1 minis, Warhammer minis (40k, necromunda, AoS- I saw someone turn a Stormcast into an Azeb buy making a custom turban and was super cool on Reddit) and that will help move product for said LGS who hosts trench crusade games/nights/ campaigns etc. Speaking out of experience most of the stores I frequent have no more British, German or other WW1 models because they’ve all been snatched up and need to be reordered. So the LGS owners are happy for the game pushing out extra product. Now I will concede since I’ve taken a second look at the game that until there are tournaments and game clubs/ store devote more time to it, who knows if the game won’t just fade away in like 2 years. One can hope that it sticks around. Ultimately I whole heartedly agree that in the end this game is going to be pretty boutiquey and will most likely appeal to the already established wargaming/ tabletop fans who want to kitbash and paint or play something different. I think it will have a necromunda/ mordheim strong following and might become something pretty awesome and healthy for LGS’s but if they make it through the initial flash in the pan success it’s just had and continues to stick around in the zeitgeist (even though it has technically been around since 2016). I’m excited no matter and will enjoy it for a few grim game
"Why don't car dealers build cars?" That's a weird question. In addition to manufacturing models you'd have to figure out how to market them, etc. It would be a completely different, if tangentially related business. Maybe naking little blind bags of bits augmented with 3D printed items by the cash register would work but then that would be so small you'd have to ask why bother? And Warren Buffett would also ask "wht would Coke start selling RC Cola?" If you charged enough to make the desired profit it wouldn't be much if at all cheaper for the customer.
The only way I see a store like yours doing 3D printing is if GW leased you a machine that prints out the plastic sprues when you type in the SKU and quantity.
One of the local stores that is 99% cards and runs a few D&D games a week sells printed minis for RPG’s that a local guy produces. The big difference here is that you need very few models for an RPG compared to even a tabletop skirmish game.
Friend of mine got into FDM printing and sold printer time via FB. He found a lot of time that people would reach out to him to print prototypes for businesses just so they could look at the thing there developing and find issues.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I feel like there's a middle ground that could be found with printers in a business but atm with climate control and VOC management it just doesn't seem like a great idea.
I have no personal experience with 3D printers, but I am not at all surprised by your conclusions. Still interesting to hear you lay out your reasoning, though.
Resin printing is a hell of a lot of fucking about, despite the people who proclaim how "simple" it is. FDM printing is a lot more straightforward but still has issues with print fails and cleaning up and maintaining them. I can see something like FDM printing for large (licenced or free STLs) unique or centrepiece terrain pieces that can then be sold on the shelf for reasonable prices working as a "value-add" for a store, but again you need to be turning those terrain pioeces over at a rate that makes the investment in hardware and PLA and then time worthwhile. As a side hustle for someone with another job or someone who wants to run a print farm that's easy. For a store I'm not sure it would be worth the effort. I guess for some it would and for others it would not.
I always think about what kind of printer would have to be on the market to make something like this viable, it would have to be true fire and forget while also having substantial upsides over anything that's reasonable to have at home and fairly high throughput. I'd assume it would be a 10-20k machine with expensive consumables which would be potentially very challenging to be worth it for game stores.
I think the overlap of people with printers and who like something like trench crusade is high. But then again most stores here run print comision services. In eastern europe there is a lot of people running 10+ stations delivering FW, bits , etc also employe lawsuit lol
For me I support a friend that makes resin models; but I use it for display and painting practice. I don't have the space nor need for 3d print at home and means I support a friend As for wargaming, I stick to warhammer stuff
It's also not readily scalable. Privateer Press went into 3D printing Warmachine and the delays on getting product out and the challenges of delivering were one of the final nails in their coffin.
I mean there are print shops that will mail the prints to you. Either stock order of up safe STL or just custom order prints. So it’s kind of already filled niche in the market and it’s not clear if people will choose a brick and mortar store for their prints over the large amount of online companies.
Would Trench Crusade be more of a viable retail product if it was miniature agnostic? Do you guys sell any miniature agnostic games or is that also something that doesn't do well at retail?
Not great for retail, although it's also hard to measure. I think the best lines for retail are a packaged, specific product with a strong and recognizable brand. Good packaging - easy to jump into - etc Not very easy for new or smaller companies to accomplish, hence the kickstarter route
My first 3D prints I had done for me at a shop that also runs a 3D printer, but I quickly switched to buying a printer and printing miniatures myself. It's not that difficult.
If you did it as a separate business and marketed it through sites like Etsy and eBay along with marketing it through your store, it could work. I also think there are a lot of people out there who want the models and don't want to 3D print. There are also a lot of customers who will insist on buying regular minis and others who will love 3D printed models. You're basically opening your market to different types of customers. I'm left wondering if the guy with the store who turned it into a printing farm did it because it was more lucrative.
He may have done it because he liked the idea of it, and enjoyed the tech side of it. Which is cool, but the Retail Brain must take precedence. Sadly passions and business don't always meld the way you want them to.
I am someone who likes really cool minis and there are a ton coming from cool STL designers that could never be mass produced. I like 3d printing purely for this reason, but I am lucky as I have a guy who prints relatively cheaply for me. I would never what a 3d printer in my house due to safety concerns. Now do I want to learn them.
One thing you didn't touch on, because it's not an obvious point, is that 1 your rented retail joint isn't coded for the chemicals waste and volitaile organic chemical filtration you'd need, 2 you'd need to deal with waste streams, 3 dealing with the waste streams requires a chemist consultant if you're doing it industrially. "why don't you get into heavy industry?" "I sell model kits to people with dice rolling addictions, not components manufactured by small scale heavy industry" It's like asking why the store doesn't have a mill to make terrain out of mdf.
Yeah, people really don't understand how much work 3D printing actually is to have a good result. Not even talking about making it a profitable business...for the files you buy professionnally to be really worth it, you need to go into mass production : that's something you don't do with just one printer and one guy alone, and you can only do it if the demand is in the big numbers. You're basically at the point of making a new miniature company. Even printing for your local club can become a chore. It's not really a wonder why selling physical miniatures is still more lucrative in the end.
Also on the mark up thing: factoring all the costs needed to do this at any usefull profit, just how much cheaper are these alternatives compared to GW products. In germany there is an etsy seller who sells krieg lookalikes. For nearly the same price as a discount seller sells gw products. Any hobby printing guy might be happy to break even on the printer.
And no one mention that as a business you need to follow some health regulations, you can be inspected and someone might decide that the area you are in is not suitable for working with hazardous, flammable products...
I whould buy printed stuff (legal obvioulsy) but it requires a well ventilated spare room and maintenance for the printers. You can commission the printer guy once you have X orders and then he delivers to you like any supplier? Terrain, bases, rulers... seems useful to me. I never was into aliens or zombies go crypto-historical or horror but knock yoruself out if it is your thing.
Keep in mind you can't just print and sell things. Most 3d modelers don't have commercial use licenses and those that do are not cheap given how many you may sell.
Don't forget about all the legal issues and copyrights with designs and the things people out there have created. 3d modeling and 3d design is its whole own completely different skill/hobby compared to just using the printer. If you use other people's designs, do you have permission to sell prints of those designs? I see some designers that require a patreon subscription with a monthly fee to be able to sell your prints legally. That adds further costs and if you aren't selling certain designs regularly you might even lose money. If you are just some random guy selling prints out of their garage then maybe you won't have to worry but for a store with a brand the legal issues could be big deal.
Most all of my group print but we still buy kits. We just end up having a bigger pile of unpainted stuff. Some of us though like myself edit the prints and custom make figs. I think the custom part makes it good. And printing terrain is super good. I never buy terrain.
I don't think you'd necessarily need to 3d print models for people, you could use Trench Crusade to sell other kits that can fit into the game, since it's miniature agnostic.
Give it 3 to 5 years I think you;ll see some progress in mass 3d printing I don;t think it'll get to individual stores but rather a distribution network
I am one of the people who would rather pay to have someone else deal with all the work that comes w 3d printing. But 100% agree, doesn't make sense as part of a hobby store right now. The time and work to print also seems to go counter to needing g less stock and living in a made to order world, you don't see hobby shops doing print to order books, either.
Yeah, I have both resin and FDM printers. I LOVE my Carbon P1P printer for making terrain, but I HATE resin printing with a passion. It’s a messy, poisonous material that is more headache than it’s worth. But FDM printing? Yeah, one of the best hobby purchases I’ve ever made.
I've currently got my printer making a tray to organize my Warcry initiative dice ability thing. I enjoy having a printer but I don't think I'd ever try to make money off of it .
3d printing is just like any other operation. The better you get at it the more you make. As far as games trying to break into the market with 3d printing is just a death sentence. You automatically created a rift between your game and the local LGS. Removing yourself from the social culture of an LGS is going to set a hard cap on just how big your game can get.
My LGS has been doing 3D prints for several years, quality is good, but can't attest to their setup as I've never seen it, but knowing the guy who does it, it may be a bit homebrew
To do it well takes time. I print for my friends for a tiny profit really just to pay for material and time. Not sure how well it would work as an add-on to the store.
The only people making employable income out of 3d printing in miniatures are using it as part of an existing mass production process. Maybe a few online companies... but maybe not? (see shapeways)
My first question would be legality and then safety. How much do commercial STL licenses cost? Can you even get them for everything? If you print as a service and someone brings a pirated file to print, are you liable? The resin is really toxic stuff. If you do that commercially, I imagine there would be all sorts of environmental and safety regulations to take into account. All of those questions would need to be answered, and the answers would probably drive up the overhead costs. IMHO most of the people asking why you don't do it have probably never calculated a business case for something in their life. That said, I'm one of those would-be customers (if I lived in your area). I have no interest in doing 3-D printing myself, but I keep getting freebie STLs with Kickstarters etc. and I'd like to get them printed for a reasonable cost. And no, I don't have a friend with a printer. But the other thing is the "competing product" aspect. It kinda makes sense especially coming from a GW store background... but taken to its logical conclusion, do you sell more than one brand of paints? Both D&D and Pathfinder? Battlefront and Plastic Soldier Company? Those are all directly competing products. I don't expect a GW store to carry non-GW products, but if an independent retailer tried to spring that kind of brand lock-in on me, I'd never visit them again. Obviously no one can carry everything, but the whole point of of going to an independent retailer for the customer is to see breadth of products on offer.
a LGS that doesnt generate money or at least some profit wont last, if the store couldnt last to sustain its operation it will close down, when it close down.. there wont be any communities and new players will dwindle and it will be a domino effect that will go right to its producers. So i understand why you put the money as a priority here. totally understand. also for trench crusade, let it be a case study on printing minis just to play because the money will eventually run out. It will never be profitable.. If its anything it should totally be a community run game like OPR than it be a kick starter.
I see the wisdom in not going 'all-in' on 3D printing. I do wonder if there is a market for add-on pieces or bases. Speaking only for me, I don't love buying random stuff on the internet. If I were playing Custodes and wanted to do some female heads I could probably find some, but how do I know they're good quality? What if I get one that's defective? It can be a hassle. But if I could buy from a retailer I know and trust? That would be valuable. And, (again maybe just me) I'd even pay 5-10% than I could find in some Etsy shop because I know who I'm buying from. Now, that may not be worth it from your perspective which I 100% get.
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As a farmer I totally understand everything you're trying to crystalize for the viewers out there. People always seem to just KNOW what YOU need to do. Over generalization is a killer of many a business. The last thing most small business owners need is another business segment or "project".
I have FDM and Resin 3D printers. I use them for personal use and sometimes print for my friends. It is A LOT of work. Design in CAD, then support the entire model correctly or it fails during print = complete restart/redo (people literally hire "supporters" because it is so tedious and annoying). Then the fumes, heating, exhaust, chemicals for cleaning/curing, paper towels, etc, etc. Then the HOURS and HOURS of waiting. Not as fast and high tech as people think.
This.
As for FDM, there are a lot of warping issues and bed leveling, and post processing is a nightmare.
I did some cosplay props and the PLA material is so freaking hard to sand off, but using other materias require higher temperatures and a dedicated enclosure which is expensive and prone to more errors...
And the fumes, people said FDM wasn't as poisonous as Resin but no, it covers the whole room, you need the thing to be off the house or have some air extraction or something.
Something NOBODY says, the energy bill. It comes out that having and maintaining a piece of copper at 230° for over 12 hours is not cheap.
And you HAVE to know 3D modeling, Blender and/or CAD.
You will have to either do designs from scratch, or be able to fix/mod what you find.
And depending on the country, these machines are not cheap or some materials are unavailable.
Good STL files are HEAVY, so you will have to buy some hard drives, trust me.
And so on, and so on.
I not particularly regret buying the machine, but my enthusiasm of using it has severely decreased in a couple of months, is such a chore
People say 3D printer is cheaper than buying GW, but man.
All the time, energy, the machines costs, energy costs, and you aren't really getting the real deal, it will always look worse imo.
It's better to buy a box of the thing you like and enjoy it instead of jumping through hoops to not get the thing you like.
Even if you get your hands on GW scans, there are so many issues with them. But I already made this rant really long so figure it out
@Badbufon bullseye 🎯
Design in CAD and doing your own supports are not a standard use case for the average hobbyist looking to use 3D printers to print models. Buy & print from creators who have already done all that work, from there you only need to worry about calibrating your printer.
HOURS and HOURS of waiting - you don’t have anything better to do than watch the printer?
This might be one of the more melodramatic anti-3D print posts I’ve seen in a while.
No denying there is work in it, but what you describe is the creator process not the user process
@The-Avien Just because YOU think it's melodramatic, doesn't mean it is. Do you even own 3D printers to know what you're talking about? Or just making stuff up to sound smart 🤓? Who said I "watched" the printer? That's more assumptions from you. And I described the user and creator process. Something you'd understand if you knew what you were talking about.
@@foxhoundms9051 it is melodramatic and your hissy fit of a response kind of shows you’re prone to melodrama. Your description was creator focused, you can try to sell it as both but the average user doesn’t need to ever look at CAD or in depth supporting unless they actually want to design their own stuff and sure a lot of people decide to try and modify sculpts they get or try their hand at design, it’s not a necessity and there are plenty of people who just subscribe to Patreon and print off their pre supported stls every month without any of the hassle you describe. Sure the part about fumes and heating and paper towels yes, I apologise that part is common to every user but come on, you specifically called out hiring a support engineer - and you’re telling me you weren’t mostly talking as a creator? Sure.
My comment about watching the machines was a joke about the fact that you made it seem like such a big deal by the capitalisation of “HOURS and HOURS of waiting” because it’s such a non issue I find it hilarious you’d even mention it. You set up the prints and go live your life. Then presto, you’ve been hobbling while making the dinner, or sleeping, or bringing the kids to the playground.
To answer your direct questions as to my experience, yes I own two resin printers currently, a Mars 4 Ultra which was an upgrade from my original Anycubic Photon and a Saturn 4 Ultra. I house these machines in a purpose built and temperature controlled enclosure with extractor fan connected directly to the printers within the enclosure. I also own a Bambu lab p1s FDM printer which replaced both my previous anycubic mega s and creality ender 3 because frankly the Bambu is so effortless that it alone outperforms the other two machines together because the downtime due to bed levelling and calibrations are not a factor.
So while 3D printing isn’t plug and play, and there is a learning curve and it certainly isn’t for everyone, posts like yours make it sound more daunting and out of reach than it actually is.
Love watching your videos. No longer play warhammer, but I like your insight and your sarcastic humor. A partnership with a 3D printer in the local area might be the only practical sense especially for bits.
Really interesting video- from the sounds of it, the reasons for/ against starting a 3D printing service in your hobby shop are the same reasons you could make for/ against adding a gas station to your hobby shop.
“If you had the space, and the upfront investment required, and you could hire someone to run it for you, then maybe you could make it work? But you’d just have a different business attached to your hobby shop”
Lol! Get your gas elsewhere!
If you value your time at all, I think 3d printing is probably even more expensive than buying GW plastic. I'll say the big advantage is, if you are doing an army with a lot of duplicate stuff, like say you want 20 tanks, that is where you're going to feel good when you print them out for the cost of 3 plastic kits. Or if you want 200 guys for a diorama. There's also some 3d printed stuff that just looks way better than GW stuff. It's easy to forget because GW release so much stuff now, but they still sell some pretty lame kits for their ultra premium price. 3D printing feels a lot like painting commissions, always seems like such a great idea until you actually put a value on your time.
I watch your vids to the end. I really enjoy your chilled and non-sensational hobby chats.
Thanks!
Agreed on all of your points there. My local university has a makerspace, and I can tell you that they are constantly busy with upkeep, repair and basic maintenance. While both resin and FDM technology has improved over the past few years, these are not simply plug-n-play. When a component fails, that is a tangible cost in time and money. I print at home in my workshop, and I printed some figures for a friend's birthday a couple years back, but even a small project like that requires a good deal of time for setting up the files, setting up the machines, printing, adjusting and re-printing for the inevitable defects ("Damn, lost that skeleton's arm there..Time to see if a different support setting helps..") , cleaning up the prints, and cleaning the machines. Trying to do that on top of the hundred and six other things that go into a day of running a store? That does not seem very sustainable at all.
I got connected ro your videos through your visits with Ash, and am glad i stayed. Now i listen to you guys on the eay to work as nuch as you produce the videos. Love your discussions.
I think you are is a tight spot honestly. In one way your gamers who love the games. You play and advocate for them, but your also retailers too which means you have notivations to advocte and advertise for games in order to feed you and your families. I dont think most people understand the pressures of owning your own business. And this is why you sometimes get very spicey responses because most only see one facet. You guys do an excellent job of explaing all sides. I dont know when i will make it up to our Northern cousins in Canada, but i eill definywork in a visit when i do at least to say hi, and buy a few things to support.
Thank you for your kind words it makes all the difference :)
I love and hate my 3D printers. I do enjoy the hobby, but it is a hobby. It’s my main hobby. More than playing, painting, etc. it’s not a business.
Some commenters have the belief that because they have a guy selling prints locally he must be making money.
Our local guys main business is 3d printing for Hollywood movies, not printing armies for people.
I also wonder what the health concerns are for the 3D printers if they are setup in a non ventilated area.
its probably not good for you
printing exclusively for wargamers is not a good business plan in the long term. Most people who want 3d print of wargaming stuff is because they find the real stuff too expensive so they won't be willing to pay premium price for miniatures. My main source of revenue for my 3d printing business is printing prototypes for a few local tech companies, the 3d printing wargaming miniatures part for local people is nothing compared to that.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905
I've eaten uncured resin by accident, I was sick for a week with nearly covid bad symptoms.
The greatest thing in the last year or so also is that FDM printers are getting a lot closer to the resin quality if you don't mind the printing times being longer. That and they aren't as fragile as Resin in most cases if you aren't mixing flexible resin into the regular resin. But more I see 3D printing as one of the most innovative technologies pushing other technologies. Like the new method of pushing plastic into a thick viscous sludge that takes away the complete need for supports. Or say industrial size printers used to 3d print concrete. Even printers printing chocolate. the use of it is far beyond okay, here is some mini's I can print. I do, but mostly because my friends are into games like OPR more than warhammer cause we don't have a store anywhere nearby and it takes less models to play games. Then I have two walls in my living room of ten to twelve shelves full of board games I've put time and money into. Its all a hobby for me. Accepting its going to cost and take time, to spend the time to get better at what you are doing, even as it is with painting and getting good playing the games.
The one hobby shop in our region that did 3d Printing, is the only hobby shop in our area that went out of business, and it had a monopoly in the city it was it. I don’t think it is causally related, but it does come to my mind when I think of it.
One thing my LGS does for 3D printing is they advertise the services of someone in the community who does it a lot and is really good at it. I don't know all the details, but I imagine they take a small cut of what he sells.
Seems like they're cutting their own feet off there. I also can't see how they could realistically take an ongoing cut of what he makes.
Probably just community building. Unless the 3d printer can be working at scale (highly unlikely) then he isn't taking a big cut out of their business and supplies the types of models the LGS can't realistically. Pointing customers to specialists who supply what the store can't makes the customer more likely to come back to the store because they trust them to honest and knowledgeable.
@@Azazel-zv4fy I imagine a scenario where the FLGS and CommunityDude123 have an agreement where CommunityDude123 can bag up some 3D printed bits and have them for sale inside the FLGS and the FLGS gets a % cut for these sale. FLGS can control what they sell. (i.e. Yes to alternate Blood Angel shoulder pads, No to actual Blood Angel Jump Pack Marines that would compete with GW product on the wall) At any point the customer can skip the FLGS and deal directly with CommunityDude123 for whatever CD123 wants to print/sell. I imagine that once CD123 gets a lot of incoming orders, and sees how much time/energy they have to spend to print/deliver these orders, they will be less willing/able to charge pennies on the dollar for their effort. There will come a point in time where they can't print/deliver things fast enough and realize that this is taking over their life and they are no longer a hobbyist having fun playing with toy soldiers, and/or feel they need to charge a lot more.
While 3D printed models/units/armies might be 'cheaper' if I have to wait a month for you to print my army, maybe it's worth just buying actual product from the FLGS today and start building it tonight and having it assembled and ready to play by the weekend and I'll get to painting it when I have time.
@@Azazel-zv4fy this is absolutely the way to do it, some schizo who is wildcating a printer bank is way better than putting a carcinogen machine in store and having a goon constantly futz with it.
Once more into The Trench dear friends, once more, or fill it over it with our Canadian banter!
One thing that's always hard to get across is just how much work and how much money is processed in a store every year. Even as a newer smaller shop we're working in the hundreds of thousands with our distributors, so I get what you mean by a thousand isn't a lot.
As for production in a store, I would agree with you that trying to print in the store isn't a great idea but if you're doing more than one line or can partner with another business that does do printing it becomes much more accessible. For example we partner and invest in a small company that has all kinds of laser cutters, printers, and so on to do merchandise services for indie content creators. The revenue on that is tiny but it does give us exposure to larger audiences through their audience and if we can scale that business correctly it can be very lucrative.
Garbage time is best time. Having a beer with you guys would be a ton of fun.
Just kitbash for trench crusade. Its very easy and very fun.
Typically if you are buying the stl files with the intent to sell prints you have to buy them at a merchant tier. This is a huge additional cost
But is anyone actually getting nailed for this? I feel like 99% of etsy sellers are doing it w/o a license
@@chuckocenasek5651 It's just a question of if the sculptor has time to play "whack-a-mole" with the said sellers (mostly they don't / can't). But in a world where 3D printing "proxies" (not to say blatant copies of the miniatures) for a GW army, morality of those who do produce them isn't already that high in the first place. After all, if you're looking for cheaper, there's always a deeper hole to jump into. Stealing is the cheapest, in the end.
And to bring it back to Trench Crusade, the kickstarter didn't have a Merchant tier. As stated in the video, there isn't a legal means of selling these prints. Trench Crusade can look like a best case scenario... so hot right now, available only as 3d prints, but the fact that they don't allow sales of their product means they're so much of a Goldilocks zone that they don't actually exist!
I picked up a printer before realizing that I don’t have the space to do it safely in my place.
I have a lgs, and i'm printing as an hobby for years. I've considered to offer 3d print in the shop, but considering the cost, and time spent: supporting, cleaning, curing, elettricity, etc. It's not that cheaper than buying the mini in plastic. If you factor the cost of a merchant subscription or rights to print and sell, it becomes straight cheaper to buy plastic instead of printing. Where it works is for cosplay, or art projects where the customer has the right of the 3d file cause they've sculpted themselves, and they need a pro equip to print
Thanks for sharing your valuable experience.
I watch to see who is wearing a hoodie this week. Double hoodies! Must be winter
Once you guys set up the 3D Printer Workshop in the store, the next step to offer is a miniature painting service where you guys paint your customers' Warhammer 40K miniatures for them. Think of all those customers who will take advantage of the extra service!
You didn't touch on the "competing with online 3d printers" angle... If people don't want to print at home, but want the printed models, I imagine the online 3d marketplaces would be their first visit, not a FLGS.
true
printing is a crazy amount of work. And as much as people will say it isn't, its INCREDIBLY dangerous in the long-term if you're not doing it right. And people want the models to be priced like they printed it themselves while being expert quality and strength. It's just not worth it for most shops to do it.
I end up watching you guys because of the business side reality checks. It’s good
Thanks so much!
I totally agree with all you guys said about this and it’s always great to hear more on the biz-nas side of things. Just what little 3d printer hobbyists have done for me lately has been a trying and frustrating experience! Some of the established ones online have been far better. But still the technology isn’t quite there yet. I mean it’s there but for all the reasons you mentioned and few more it’s not. Thanks again for your perspective!
Thanks mate
Right now I think the best way to incorporate a game that uses 3D printed models into the pre-existing retail space would be through the implementation of a payment system that allows retail stores to collect a margin on online STL sales that are billed to addresses near their geographical location. In exchange the store organizes and runs events for the customers of the game. This would include checking to make sure that the people turning up to play the game have a valid single user license to print the models in the first place, which would allow them to play at official events for paying customers.
there are many people using resin printers without proper ventilation or correctly dealing with the waste resin and isopropyl which is not supposed to be dumped down the drain or sent to landfill
I saw a video from MiniWargaming about just how complex it is. The PPE the guys were wearing alone gives away why you dont see resin printers near the public. Until the day that 3d printers are non-toxic; can produce a plate of minis within 15 mins perfectly everytime. Then it might be possible to run the numbers and see if it’s worth it.
We;re nearly there on the second point, and water washable resin is less awful, but it is bad.
One of the hobby shops in our area does 3D printing, but they run it as a pure printing service. The client has to buy the stl, the shop can slice the stl for you (for a fee) and then you pay a price to have them print your model for you. You have to find and buy your own stl's and they print your file for you
And maybe they stop by the shop to pick it up……
Agree 100%.
I figured it would be extremely difficult to do 3D printing in-store, but you can't swing a dead cat in the comment section without hitting somebody mentioning their local store having a whole operation going successfully. However they manage it.
I have been holding off on a home one for sake of space, toxic material and fumes so while I would love a local store I could pick up prints from I completely get why they don't want to.
Primarily I am using 3d prints for alt sculpts for Legion (ie Hoth gear) but I still buy the base mini as if you don't support the smaller games they risk failure, or options not available in games. Or scenery, and basing bits.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the cost of essentially licensing everything you would need to print. In order to resell anything you need permission and that's not cheap. Buying an STL is not the same as owning the rights to it
I feel compelled to LOL at the concept that the average 3D Printer holds themself to "Thou Shall Not Steal".
There are some (not all) STL sellers that have two different purchase options. The purchase for private use license, and the purchase for "print to sell" (which is obviously a more expensive license). So there are means to do it as a service without going to "piracy" route.
We're gonna make a go at it in our 6500 sq feet store, with both filament and resin. We have a small room with our resin printers, fulled vented to the roof as well as having air purifiers running constantly. The learning curve on printing is high, but we've been in it for the last eight years. I wouldn't recommend it for someone just starting with printing, for sure.
Oh damn. Good luck! I'd love to hear your experience
I like 3D printing for unique accessories and terrain pieces.
I think it is impractical at scale currently for a shop.
To use a real life example, I had a stl file I provided a shop. The shop is highly skilled at 3d printing. We had to have several pms and photos of results to verify everything look correct. The terrain piece created was extremely well done and cost me $50. It was a large terrain piece. This took several weeks to get done.
In that time, I purchased a Malifaux master core box, forget which one, which was also roughly $50. For that, the shop just had to click a button to add it to their order.
Now for the shop, the second process is the more sustainable method to sell miniatures.
The terrain piece is awesome though.
Completely agree! Got a resin as well as fdm printer (both premium models). FDM is only suitable for chunky models and terrain. Resin is awesome for minis however....
There is so much time commitement necessary. And this shit is dangerous as hell. In my opinion the majority of the printing community underestimates the dangers... I only print outside in a shed (still full protective gear on with mask face mask e.g.), which means i cant print for almost 5 months (winter time). My printer is heated, still theres weeks without printing.
I would never suggest to go the printing route as a store. If you want to print, do a seperate business and rent a hall... something far away from people.
Nice! Some garbage time! Interesting thoughts as always... 👍
While I don't think hobby shops should run a 3D printing service, there is no good reason not to sell 3D printing supplies. As you say, you have '3d printing people' coming to the store, you may as well have something for them to buy. I think many people buy molded plastic minis and 3D print stuff. I know I do. Especially for historical games like Bolt Action, or Saga the minis are just as cheap to buy as they are to print (for me this is the $1-$2 / figure threshold) and at that point I just buy the figures.
I see a few comments about Trade Licenses. Some Replies advocate using the STLs to print _without_ the license.
Do those posters also advocate selling recasts?
I wouldn't pay people like that much attention. They could care less if I make enough money to stay open.
I've never understood that line of questioning. Asking your FLGS why they don't 3D print stuff is like asking your local diner why they don't keep chickens to save on buying eggs
How does the whole “I bought the STL” thing work? I assume that the basic purchase allows me to print an unlimited number of the model in question FOR MY OWN USE? But does it allow me to print models for retail sale? I’ve heard that there are “retail stl licenses” for people who are running an Etsy business.
In almost all cases the files are for your personal use. Obviously they can't stop you from printing for your friends etc. But with a business you could open yourself up to a lawsuit
Printing is it's own beast. Once you get your head around the how-to's, it'll run good til it doesn't, and then you have to figure out how to fix it.
I have a simple little FDM printer and it's great for banging out low rez terrain and movement trays and such. Would get a resin one but I don't have the space/setup to do that safely and also I don't need a whole other hobby. Resin minis are nice (not a general replacement for plastic but good for certain things) but here's the thing - etsy is full of dudes who will print me stuff at competitive prices (because they don't need to pay for a store) and just ship them to me. When I want a resin something, I can get that already. When I want to go to a store and look at stuff or talk to someone or even just pop in and out and have a thing today, I can also get that already. I am not seeing a huge gaping hole in my life that would be solved by a game store full of resin printers.
Few questions come to mind, "where am I going to put enough machines to make this worthwhile?" and "how do we ventilate the area to keep the smell and fumes from filling the space?"
There is the whole other factor that print on demand online is a huge business also.
Just setup a print farm in your massive storage area in the back, well known all hobby shops have a warehouse in back, and just print money!
Let me grab that from the back for you!
I think one of the benefits for an LGS regarding Trench Crusade is that since the game is technically miniatures agnostic then it encourages the people in the trench crusade community to kitbash. That means a ton of people buying boxes of wargames Atlantic ww1 minis, Warhammer minis (40k, necromunda, AoS- I saw someone turn a Stormcast into an Azeb buy making a custom turban and was super cool on Reddit) and that will help move product for said LGS who hosts trench crusade games/nights/ campaigns etc. Speaking out of experience most of the stores I frequent have no more British, German or other WW1 models because they’ve all been snatched up and need to be reordered. So the LGS owners are happy for the game pushing out extra product.
Now I will concede since I’ve taken a second look at the game that until there are tournaments and game clubs/ store devote more time to it, who knows if the game won’t just fade away in like 2 years. One can hope that it sticks around.
Ultimately I whole heartedly agree that in the end this game is going to be pretty boutiquey and will most likely appeal to the already established wargaming/ tabletop fans who want to kitbash and paint or play something different. I think it will have a necromunda/ mordheim strong following and might become something pretty awesome and healthy for LGS’s but if they make it through the initial flash in the pan success it’s just had and continues to stick around in the zeitgeist (even though it has technically been around since 2016).
I’m excited no matter and will enjoy it for a few grim game
As you should! It looks awesome
"Why don't car dealers build cars?" That's a weird question. In addition to manufacturing models you'd have to figure out how to market them, etc. It would be a completely different, if tangentially related business. Maybe naking little blind bags of bits augmented with 3D printed items by the cash register would work but then that would be so small you'd have to ask why bother?
And Warren Buffett would also ask "wht would Coke start selling RC Cola?" If you charged enough to make the desired profit it wouldn't be much if at all cheaper for the customer.
Great points. People do have a hard time understanding that it is fundamentally different from what we normally do in our shop.
The only way I see a store like yours doing 3D printing is if GW leased you a machine that prints out the plastic sprues when you type in the SKU and quantity.
One of the local stores that is 99% cards and runs a few D&D games a week sells printed minis for RPG’s that a local guy produces. The big difference here is that you need very few models for an RPG compared to even a tabletop skirmish game.
OMG you talked about Battletech! What is the most popular non-gw game you guys have in your store?
Friend of mine got into FDM printing and sold printer time via FB. He found a lot of time that people would reach out to him to print prototypes for businesses just so they could look at the thing there developing and find issues.
Very cool. Also hard to for a store to compete with people printing at home with no overheads and not valuing their own time as a standard wage.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I feel like there's a middle ground that could be found with printers in a business but atm with climate control and VOC management it just doesn't seem like a great idea.
I have no personal experience with 3D printers, but I am not at all surprised by your conclusions. Still interesting to hear you lay out your reasoning, though.
Resin printing is a hell of a lot of fucking about, despite the people who proclaim how "simple" it is. FDM printing is a lot more straightforward but still has issues with print fails and cleaning up and maintaining them.
I can see something like FDM printing for large (licenced or free STLs) unique or centrepiece terrain pieces that can then be sold on the shelf for reasonable prices working as a "value-add" for a store, but again you need to be turning those terrain pioeces over at a rate that makes the investment in hardware and PLA and then time worthwhile. As a side hustle for someone with another job or someone who wants to run a print farm that's easy. For a store I'm not sure it would be worth the effort. I guess for some it would and for others it would not.
I always think about what kind of printer would have to be on the market to make something like this viable, it would have to be true fire and forget while also having substantial upsides over anything that's reasonable to have at home and fairly high throughput. I'd assume it would be a 10-20k machine with expensive consumables which would be potentially very challenging to be worth it for game stores.
I dont want to be in a show blasting resin fumes into the air xD
I think the overlap of people with printers and who like something like trench crusade is high. But then again most stores here run print comision services. In eastern europe there is a lot of people running 10+ stations delivering FW, bits , etc also employe lawsuit lol
For me I support a friend that makes resin models; but I use it for display and painting practice.
I don't have the space nor need for 3d print at home and means I support a friend
As for wargaming, I stick to warhammer stuff
I like printing my hobby because it allows lot more creativity on my armies. Digital kitbashing etc..
It's also not readily scalable. Privateer Press went into 3D printing Warmachine and the delays on getting product out and the challenges of delivering were one of the final nails in their coffin.
I mean there are print shops that will mail the prints to you. Either stock order of up safe STL or just custom order prints. So it’s kind of already filled niche in the market and it’s not clear if people will choose a brick and mortar store for their prints over the large amount of online companies.
Sell resin and FEP.
Especially resin.
My wife and I are sending money to Amazon that could be foing to a local store.
Would Trench Crusade be more of a viable retail product if it was miniature agnostic? Do you guys sell any miniature agnostic games or is that also something that doesn't do well at retail?
Not great for retail, although it's also hard to measure. I think the best lines for retail are a packaged, specific product with a strong and recognizable brand.
Good packaging - easy to jump into - etc
Not very easy for new or smaller companies to accomplish, hence the kickstarter route
That makes sense. Thanks for the reply.
My first 3D prints I had done for me at a shop that also runs a 3D printer, but I quickly switched to buying a printer and printing miniatures myself. It's not that difficult.
Please do a video about your view of online sellers (both bits, mega sellers like Flipside and scalpers). Ty!
If you did it as a separate business and marketed it through sites like Etsy and eBay along with marketing it through your store, it could work.
I also think there are a lot of people out there who want the models and don't want to 3D print.
There are also a lot of customers who will insist on buying regular minis and others who will love 3D printed models. You're basically opening your market to different types of customers.
I'm left wondering if the guy with the store who turned it into a printing farm did it because it was more lucrative.
He may have done it because he liked the idea of it, and enjoyed the tech side of it. Which is cool, but the Retail Brain must take precedence.
Sadly passions and business don't always meld the way you want them to.
Nah he ended up getting rid of all of the printers and went back to just selling warhammer and mtg
I think you are right, it's a seperate business.
I am someone who likes really cool minis and there are a ton coming from cool STL designers that could never be mass produced. I like 3d printing purely for this reason, but I am lucky as I have a guy who prints relatively cheaply for me. I would never what a 3d printer in my house due to safety concerns. Now do I want to learn them.
One thing you didn't touch on, because it's not an obvious point, is that 1 your rented retail joint isn't coded for the chemicals waste and volitaile organic chemical filtration you'd need, 2 you'd need to deal with waste streams, 3 dealing with the waste streams requires a chemist consultant if you're doing it industrially.
"why don't you get into heavy industry?" "I sell model kits to people with dice rolling addictions, not components manufactured by small scale heavy industry"
It's like asking why the store doesn't have a mill to make terrain out of mdf.
Yeah, people really don't understand how much work 3D printing actually is to have a good result. Not even talking about making it a profitable business...for the files you buy professionnally to be really worth it, you need to go into mass production : that's something you don't do with just one printer and one guy alone, and you can only do it if the demand is in the big numbers. You're basically at the point of making a new miniature company.
Even printing for your local club can become a chore. It's not really a wonder why selling physical miniatures is still more lucrative in the end.
Hobby shops should sell resin bottles
And sell the printers and all the parts too and now we are basically a 3d printer store and boy oh boy have we lost the plot
Also on the mark up thing: factoring all the costs needed to do this at any usefull profit, just how much cheaper are these alternatives compared to GW products. In germany there is an etsy seller who sells krieg lookalikes. For nearly the same price as a discount seller sells gw products.
Any hobby printing guy might be happy to break even on the printer.
And no one mention that as a business you need to follow some health regulations, you can be inspected and someone might decide that the area you are in is not suitable for working with hazardous, flammable products...
I whould buy printed stuff (legal obvioulsy) but it requires a well ventilated spare room and maintenance for the printers. You can commission the printer guy once you have X orders and then he delivers to you like any supplier? Terrain, bases, rulers... seems useful to me. I never was into aliens or zombies go crypto-historical or horror but knock yoruself out if it is your thing.
Keep in mind you can't just print and sell things. Most 3d modelers don't have commercial use licenses and those that do are not cheap given how many you may sell.
Sell the shovels! Sell the printers dumbies!
Don't forget about all the legal issues and copyrights with designs and the things people out there have created. 3d modeling and 3d design is its whole own completely different skill/hobby compared to just using the printer. If you use other people's designs, do you have permission to sell prints of those designs? I see some designers that require a patreon subscription with a monthly fee to be able to sell your prints legally. That adds further costs and if you aren't selling certain designs regularly you might even lose money. If you are just some random guy selling prints out of their garage then maybe you won't have to worry but for a store with a brand the legal issues could be big deal.
Most all of my group print but we still buy kits. We just end up having a bigger pile of unpainted stuff. Some of us though like myself edit the prints and custom make figs. I think the custom part makes it good. And printing terrain is super good. I never buy terrain.
It is a lot of work. I run 5 printers everyday. The cleaning and support removal is very time consuming.
I don't think you'd necessarily need to 3d print models for people, you could use Trench Crusade to sell other kits that can fit into the game, since it's miniature agnostic.
I know one of the channels has a print studio and had a whole video on how you do not want to share space with a print farm.
I did recently buy a few 3d printed big guys for blood bowl because gw forge world ones are not in stock and 4 times more expensive.
Give it 3 to 5 years I think you;ll see some progress in mass 3d printing I don;t think it'll get to individual stores but rather a distribution network
Trench Crusade is hype. Mordheim eventually being re-released will be $$$ :)
I am one of the people who would rather pay to have someone else deal with all the work that comes w 3d printing. But 100% agree, doesn't make sense as part of a hobby store right now. The time and work to print also seems to go counter to needing g less stock and living in a made to order world, you don't see hobby shops doing print to order books, either.
Yes please Christ-Matt Special
Yeah, I have both resin and FDM printers. I LOVE my Carbon P1P printer for making terrain, but I HATE resin printing with a passion. It’s a messy, poisonous material that is more headache than it’s worth.
But FDM printing? Yeah, one of the best hobby purchases I’ve ever made.
IMO the only thing maybe worth it, if someone at the store likes 3d printing, is to setup an FDM printer or two for terrain.
I've currently got my printer making a tray to organize my Warcry initiative dice ability thing. I enjoy having a printer but I don't think I'd ever try to make money off of it .
3d printing is just like any other operation. The better you get at it the more you make. As far as games trying to break into the market with 3d printing is just a death sentence. You automatically created a rift between your game and the local LGS. Removing yourself from the social culture of an LGS is going to set a hard cap on just how big your game can get.
C'mon guys, Trench Crusade is so last week. Now all the Warhammer channels are talking about Gunpla. Need to follow the trends!! /s
Gunpla eh....
My LGS has been doing 3D prints for several years, quality is good, but can't attest to their setup as I've never seen it, but knowing the guy who does it, it may be a bit homebrew
To do it well takes time. I print for my friends for a tiny profit really just to pay for material and time. Not sure how well it would work as an add-on to the store.
The only people making employable income out of 3d printing in miniatures are using it as part of an existing mass production process. Maybe a few online companies... but maybe not? (see shapeways)
Hobby stores are retail, and 3d printing is manufacturing, they arent the same business.
Quality bit of garbage time at the end, would like to hear the extended blockbuster garbage time cut though
My first question would be legality and then safety.
How much do commercial STL licenses cost? Can you even get them for everything? If you print as a service and someone brings a pirated file to print, are you liable?
The resin is really toxic stuff. If you do that commercially, I imagine there would be all sorts of environmental and safety regulations to take into account.
All of those questions would need to be answered, and the answers would probably drive up the overhead costs.
IMHO most of the people asking why you don't do it have probably never calculated a business case for something in their life.
That said, I'm one of those would-be customers (if I lived in your area). I have no interest in doing 3-D printing myself, but I keep getting freebie STLs with Kickstarters etc. and I'd like to get them printed for a reasonable cost. And no, I don't have a friend with a printer.
But the other thing is the "competing product" aspect. It kinda makes sense especially coming from a GW store background... but taken to its logical conclusion, do you sell more than one brand of paints? Both D&D and Pathfinder? Battlefront and Plastic Soldier Company? Those are all directly competing products. I don't expect a GW store to carry non-GW products, but if an independent retailer tried to spring that kind of brand lock-in on me, I'd never visit them again.
Obviously no one can carry everything, but the whole point of of going to an independent retailer for the customer is to see breadth of products on offer.
3d printing gets a lot of praise without the massive caveats and running it as a business means taking on a lot of EPA and OSHA regulation.
a LGS that doesnt generate money or at least some profit wont last, if the store couldnt last to sustain its operation it will close down, when it close down.. there wont be any communities and new players will dwindle and it will be a domino effect that will go right to its producers. So i understand why you put the money as a priority here. totally understand.
also for trench crusade, let it be a case study on printing minis just to play because the money will eventually run out. It will never be profitable.. If its anything it should totally be a community run game like OPR than it be a kick starter.
You lads are literally stocked in the trench 😂
Help I can't get out!
I see the wisdom in not going 'all-in' on 3D printing. I do wonder if there is a market for add-on pieces or bases. Speaking only for me, I don't love buying random stuff on the internet.
If I were playing Custodes and wanted to do some female heads I could probably find some, but how do I know they're good quality? What if I get one that's defective? It can be a hassle.
But if I could buy from a retailer I know and trust? That would be valuable. And, (again maybe just me) I'd even pay 5-10% than I could find in some Etsy shop because I know who I'm buying from.
Now, that may not be worth it from your perspective which I 100% get.