She claims Affirming Theology is BIBLICAL
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode, we chat with Alicia Johnston, author of the book “The Bible and LGBTQ Adventists”. We discuss her journey as an SDA pastor, losing her position in the church for coming out, and the biblical reasons she has for taking an affirming view.
Have a question you want us to discuss? Comment? Maybe you disagree with something we said? Either way, we'd love to hear from you! Shoot us an email at: seekingwhattheysought@gmail.com
Listening to this episode, I found myself liking what I was hearing and hoping that, going back to Leviticus 18, I would find what Alicia was saying. But if we are to be honest with the text, is it just me or the whole first part is a lot more about incest than about how to manage a polygamist household? I did not see obvious polygamy in there. All I found in this chapter was this:
- Don’t practice incest
- Don’t sleep with your wife’s sister, with your neighbor’s wife or with your wife while she has her period
- Don’t offer your children as sacrifices
- Don’t sleep with a man like you would with a woman
- Don’t sleep with animals
We wouldn’t question most of these things, even today, would we?
And after reflection, I’m also not sure about the whole slavery thing. When we hear the word “slavery,” we automatically think of what happened to Black people in America. But that doesn’t mean that this is how the word is used in the Bible. I think most “slaves” in Bible times were basically “servants,” employees not paid very well, but supposedly taken care of. Not necessarily beaten and abused like what we have in mind when we think about slavery. The Hebrews’ situation in Egypt seems to resemble more what we understand to be slavery, and God took them out of there… I don’t think the Bible condones slavery as we understand the word today. God is love and always was.
I would also have liked to hear her on the NT passages that elude to homosexuality…
Thank you for such a wonderful discussion. I knew it was going to be deeply insightful as soon as the Romanisation of the law was explained. It is the biggest corruption that informs the majority of Christianity and all other religions. God's law does not function like human law. Until the foundation is trusted, that is God is actually love and the Divine law is love, the lens of self protection isn't overcome. It prevents us from love and growth in the liberty of that transformational knowledge. Alicia, you are wonderful, and I can only imagine your journey from pain to joy. Can't wait to read your book.
Has there been a response from the church on Alicia’s book? I would love to see it, if so.
Wonderful conversation. Thank you for being fair and balanced.
Are these episodes available on your podcast? I can’t seem to find them there.
Yes, they are from 2022, so you’ll have to scroll down a bit to find them.
Theological humility? It doesn’t take a “deep dive “ to read Lev 18 or Romans 1… in context it’s plain…( just to mention a couple of obvious ones)
The image of God is revealed the unity of Man with Women…
The bible says its an abomination to lie with your sister and mom as well… in Lev 18 … I guess we can disregard that too? Can a man take his sons wife to his bed because that was just a “cultural “ taboo at the time and now we see it wasn’t a “law” just a suggestion? You can’t pick the “abomination “ you want to change to suit your desires. Comparing rules for how you keep your roof or bury your poop is really dishonest and inconsistent.Sexual sin is a moral issue … and there are serious consequences. She doesn’t “ unpack “ the whole chapter 18 of Lev.
I tried for several years to wrestle the scriptures to say homosexuality wasn’t sin… I heard all the arguments ( cultural context etc…) and in the end I had to accept its contrary to life and brings death. May God have mercy on Any of us who seek to justify our perverse desires to continue in sin . Romans 1 warns us He will “give us up” to fulfill our own destruction when we violate the laws of our nature…
She argues about how we aren't consistent with the way we read the Bible. If we are going to apply one principal from a cultural context then we should consistently apply that in every scenario. But when you all discuss Leviticus 18, the whole chapter is about sexual morality. And you all decide that the issue of a man lying with a man is an okay thing to do as long as it's in the context of a loving monogamous relationship. So now my question is should we now apply that same principal to people and animals? What about people who want to marry their siblings??? Wouldn't this be a legitimate question to ask now about this whole chapter in Leviticus?
No, animals can neither sign consent to sex or a contract
People should probably be allowed to wed a sibling- it’s not something that has an easy moral answer, though we think of it as one
This is a good point. Just moving the line further and further.
@@hexum7 it’s easy if the bible states it. It (sibling relationships) violates health laws just like homosexuality does. It does not fulfill the overall design that God has for sexual relationships-procreation which is exclusive to heterosexual relationships .
But do I suppose that all heterosexual encounters that is not geared towards procreation is sin? No , God has given us the gift of sex within the context of procreation (between man and woman) but to the exclusion of lust (anal sex , polygamy etc..) Moral relativism is not a thing. The princples (not rules) of God are timeless.
@@jayt2257 b nothing in the Bible suggests that is gods one and only plan for mankind. The usually misread Matthew 19 says it’s not in fact. Jesus says that not all are called to a male female relationship. And that we should accept that.
And surely you’re not contemplating that marriage between senior citizens is a sin?
@@hexum7 Hi hexum.First of all, the Gospel is the great simplifier of life’s problems. I don’t know you personally but I just want to preface(just in case this applies to you personally) what I say by letting you know that God will give you perfect peace when you surrender your will to Him. When you take up your cross and follow Him because He no doubt loves you.
On to your points. It is not that procreation is God’s only plan but it is His primary plan to which all other secondary actions fall under:
Genesis 1:28 (KJV) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Malachi 2:15 (NIV): “Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.”
Additional text shows marriage is also relegated to opposite sex:
Genesis 1:27 (KJV) So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:24 (KJV) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Note: here you have a family structure, father, mother, husband wife, not father and father or mother and mother or husband for husband or wife for wife but husband for wife.
Ephesians 5:22 (KJV)
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Ephesians 5:28 (KJV)
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
So to marry as a senior citizen is not sin as I stated on previous post because it falls under secondary reason but still in the context of primary reason-procreation which can only happen amongst opposite sex.
Secondary reason is companionship :
gen 2:8 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
That help meet was the opposite sex, why? To fulfill the requirements of the primary purpose of procreating. Otherwise, gen 1:27 could never happen. This is the pattern.
Also keep in mind that there are cases where senior’s have children in scripture when they gave up all interest in having them. I am sure your aware of those.
My thing is the exceptional silence from God not trying to make things clear. Like he just says things which could be interpreted a varity of was and just walks away, not trying to make it clear.
At
dont think God knows how to make things clear. Or maybe He does it on purpose to see what is in our hearts.
I hate the slavery to LGBTQ comparison. But i get her point about how perception can change. I veiw slaves in the bible more like servants, not the capturing and forcibly working of people worse than animals, and killing them if they express their free will. But God provided moral guides of how to have servants, not just anything goes, being endorsed by God as a way to help the poor and less fortunate. But maybe that's just my perception as a black Christian.
Leviticus 18 vs 22 starts off as thou shall not! This is banning an action! From listening to this video I shall interpret homosexuality as a sin only if the motive is for a man to be forced into such an act. Men who volunteer themselves are okay. The Bible does not call sin a sin only if the motive is bad. If I decide to be robin hood and steal to give to the poor is my stealing no longer a sin because my motives were good? This lady his going directly against "thou shall not" because of feelings! You guys have to show where God gives a thou shall not for an action, and then later on changes his mind on the sin based on motives?