00:35 Aesthetic vs function in art direction. 15:03 Art direction and relevance. 29:37 Interactive items should be salient. 40:01 Looking at where the attention goes. 46:55 Game should communicate the affordances to a player. Realistic artstyle and AAA graphics rant. 1:01:41 On commenting on well selling games.
They tak an awful lot about "familiarity" without ever mentioning the word "familiarity". Blow/Muratori: You don't have to read Heidegger but the Wikipedia entry for "Dreyfus model of skill acquisition" is a good starting point for this topic. TLDR: Build familiarity so that when you break from it it becomes obvious.
The Dishonored series also has a detective mode called Dark Vision, which is utterly aggravating. It tints the whole game orange and then shows you all the collectables through walls etc., so the best way to play the game as a completionist is to experience it entirely in its ugly orange mode.
Replace orange with sepia and playing entirely in that mode sounds pretty close to sepia + color mode that they said no one has the balls to do because they are too conformist.
I notice something about old school FPS games, the graphics are more abstract and it's easier for your mind to pick out what's important/interactable - which if my eyes pick it out naturally it increases the immersion.
Well exactly. The limitations produce distinct design parameters visually. As games look more and more realistic looking it's becoming more difficult to communicate the rules and design choices to players.
Our eyes have short-medium-long wave cones, which pretty much translates to blue, green and red. Tetrachromats have the fourth kind of cones, so yeah, they see color differences where I would see the same color (that's how they are tested) and because camera sees as I do, the photo of something might be somewhat off related to the thing itself. I would imagine that partially removing one of RGB values from a photo might produce comparable results for me.
I think when like hunting birds. You try to hide in green plants with green camoflague clothes. The problem is that plants reflects green light, camoflage clothes reflects yellow and blue light and most birds is tetrachromates and you probably stick out in a totaly different color than the suronding for them.
Really appreciate these types of in-depth discussions. I think though Casey's sound-levels are frequently clipping due to his gain being too high on his end? I would say aim for -20 to -10 dB on obs (on raw input, no levels applied, if that's what you're using) Would love to see a more balanced and nice sounding mix between Jonathan and Casey's voices. ** Does another bird-song puzzle **
Thanks for giving us this information for free, really means alot. :D It's nothing that will change for me over night, but I will practice and consider these aspects for my projects.
I can't remember what game was it, but there was a game where you could easily tell which doors were interactive and which were decoration. Interactive doors were clearly game objects, they were 3d and light interacted differently with them. The decoration doors were flat, just a texture on a wall. The genius thing about this game was that one of this flat texture doors was actually openable and lead to a secret room. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but breaking a convention like that is a really smart way of hiding things.
Isn't it kind of bad, like in a general sense, to do stuff like this? Only an insane person would repeatedly try to enter these doors to find anything, or somebody looking for secrets. But it nevertheless turns the game into "bump into every door, just in case this one behaves differently from the others". Gambling works on exactly the same principle, but rewards there are far more frequent to keep people playing.
one of the things that I always thought would be really cool would be if screens actually had 4 pixels, and either it would be UV (low luminosity black light) or maybe almost IR... the idea being that this colour would be essentially imperceptible, and you could essentially paint "auras" or highlight certain things on the screen as a way to intuitively guide people to look at certain things
48:33 Metal Gear Solid V does not have a dedicated "detective mode." Casey was probably confusing that with the fact that you can tag enemies so you always have an overlay for them.
1:30:41 "You know what it would be actually?" The Witness! I'm always comparing the Witness to James Joyce. Starts with "Fox in Socks," ends contemplating the trinity, gnostic apotheosis, two dozen other things including Ulysses.
I would’ve said this seems obvious after hearing it, but now that I’ve heard it, I can definitely think of several instances where game designers have made the wrong decision with this topic- like the alchemy system in kingdom come deliverance when you’re gathering ingredients.
Based on a online tetrachromacy test, which might be bs, I have tetrachromacy. Based on that test, I would say compared to a normal person, the difference isn't that huge. There's just more different hues of yellowish-green and cyan that I can discern, that normal person would see as just one same hue, not that I can see entirely different color called splurgo, that others can't see . Another thing I noticed, that yellow and one shade of purple looked lot more bright, than the other hues. I guess one thing is that the color of water in games is usually unrealistic, it's usually made symbolically more blue than what it actually is.
I see a lot worst than that, object that look the same but doesn't had same functionality, like a can on tye ground pickable and other not, or a fence climbable and other not and so on...
I started watching ur video on compiler and how parsing and compiling books are bad, but now i cant find it. What books would u suggest to learn about making languages?
ludology encompasses many nonvideo games. for a long time, boardgames and tabletop wargames have plenty of art which function to communicate unique rules (such as terrain movement costs, cover, and other properties)
True but they are so painfully boring and don't apply a shader over the whole screen. Both mean that the player is more likely to look at the actual game.
46:04 As far as I can tell, simulators are games where being realistic is an advantage. It's literally about recreating the experience of something from real life, but the main differences being that you can do it with no real-life risks, that the experience is on-demand and that you usually have more control than even a wealthy entrepreneur would have. And I suppose you could argue those are unrealistic, but as far as I could tell, Jon was only talking about art style.
There's no need to be so dismissive of diegesis. It is a well-understood concept from film and litterature. I'm sure Casey knows the value of nomenclature, including how it can make communication more concise and unambiguous.
@@ipotrick6686 yeah I think when it comes to chat or the public they tend to have a pretty closed mind, but honestly that's fair considering it would probably fuck you up to take twitch chat/youtube comments too seriously.
@@blackdragoncool Making a devlog and/or sharing your thoughts and ideas can be very valuable contributions both to your world, your legacy (if you care), your brand (awareness) - and it can help be a mental break from deep dive work, where you get some exposure to fresh perspectives or get a chance to voice your thoughts in a different way. If you want good advice or perspective though, it's overwhelmingly more productive to access people in your network who has expertise in that field. And I've been curious for a while if chats have much value beyond leaning into parasocial relations - and what other opportunities are left than chats that overrepresent ignorance and disrespect.
I think the reason people are so critical of elite jargon is not because there's no reason to have jargon, it's because the elites who use this jargon are so mediocre
Yeah, Conway's law is probably the closest thing (so far) there is to actual "laws" in software development. I think it's a very powerful insight indeed.
100% agree with the cookie cutter open world games commentary. And ESPECIALLY detective/x-ray/eagle-eye-mode. Why not constrain it to either a resource (so you have to carefully choose wether to use it) or just make the character not able to move while using it. There has to be a price for this 'cheat'.
I really enjoy these discussions but the Q&A's can be a bit hostile towards the people asking questions. For example, the question about diegetic UI was lambasted for using the supposedly over-academic term diegetic. I myself have never studied game design in depth but am familiar from diegesis from literature and film. I instantly knew what the asker meant as it is a broad term that translates well across mediums. To me it seemed like the best word to use in this case. It felt a bit unfair to assume the asker was fetishising terminology. It is possible to ask someone to clarify a word without insults.
With all due respect (I am very grateful to be going through the entirety of Handmade Hero at the moment) perhaps Casey should consider taking his own (well-put) advice about "writing the usage code first" and not trying to design API architectures upfront when it comes to game design: I feel like his main question here, and the one in the previous talk, are both prime examples of him attempting to put the cart before the horse, something which he always advises against in the programming domain. I can understand his general anxiety towards game design as he's always had a distaste for designing games (saying it's not his thing, maybe a sentiment fueled by his earlier failures) and shown a lot of (a little too much, IMO) eagerness in saying that game code should be written by game designers, but it seems to me like he's going astray with his perceived clean separation between the domains of game design and programming.
That's why John Carmack had functions that are 10k lines of code each, so he could extract commonalities into idempotent functions later. I'm sure Jonathan Blow said this on his language talks in 2014 also.
@@SimGunther Yeah Casey calls it "semantic compression", extracting code you have actually written several times already, rather than trying to predict what functions you might need in the future. But these guys have made so many games already, I'm sure they can predict at least some elements of the architecture ahead of time, reducing redesign time. Actually if I remember correctly, Carmack was claiming he sometimes DIDN'T extract commonalities from large functions, because they were clearer when left in-line. Although the idempotent parts probably wouldn't benefit from that.
@@davidste60 Sorry, the context was: On several occasions in Handmade Hero, when Casey is asked when he'll get to gameplay code (as opposed to engine/infrastructure code), he specifically calls out game logic code (i.e. interactions between game entities) as something he doesn't enjoy writing, and regards it as something he would rather have game designers do.
offtop. Can you say to Cassey to disable automatic translation for video on Molly Rocket channel? Because on Russian his series Handmade hero day N translates something like "day of a handjob hero N"))
Ive seen this a few times now where Blow and Casey gets upset at "design school speech" but issent it useful to have words that describe a specific thing like the person said "diegetic ui" which is much more concise and clear than saying "is the ui integrated into the world vs is it like a word that pops up like open" assuming you know what the word means. Is the problem really that people use new words or is the problem that they dont want to learn new words? Im guessing that word didnt need to exist when they learned this stuff since it didnt really exist back then but since then started to pop up so now there is a word for it. I mean communication is already hard and this attitude of "they are fetishizing words" seems like it will only add additional barriers. And i dont mean this word specifically, i mean new words in general.
tooPrime but Conway's law is probably the most important thing you should now for any large project. I can't think of something that can fail a project harder than not knowing this law
anyone else feel like this gets continuously harder to listen to and less well reasoned past like the 40 minute mark? like...yeah, if you want to focus on moving an artform forward, you're going to be left out of the big money scene and you'll have to appeal to a narrower slice of the population that's not the same as "if you took all the art assets away from AAA games there's nothing left and nobody would play them"... this is basically sophistry it's the same thing as unsuccessful musicians saying "yeah well if you take away all the production and promotion from pop music, it's not as technically interesting as prog rock so i wouldn't listen to it" - the hollywood producers getting rich off that stuff would say 'yeah, so? at least we know how to write a hook and get on the radio' how about just be the indie artsy game design people and be comfortable with it? ignore the AAA stuff you aren't competing with anyway?
They're not wrong but my contention with that jab is that a AAA game with all the bells and whistles CAN be a valuable thing in and of itself. Red Dead 2 is pretty hollow but the graphical fidelity and art assets make it an alluring experience, at least for me. But yeah, I would never play it if it looked bad.
I love how jon and casey make fun of someone using the word "diegetic" (which is a pretty well known word in cinema) and saying shit like game design school speech or whatever just because they don't know it, then proceed to talk about "systemic game design" which is as buzzword as you can get, THEN proceed to make fun of the person who talked about "visual story" tone it down with the toxicity seriously
Yeah, there's a ton of field specific vocabulary that's used in all disciplines, diegetic is common enough to be useful for people to think, and communicate more clearly and concisely with each other. Just because something is a new concept for you doesn't mean it's inherently bad, but I definitely understand that that's a very human tendency in all of us.
If they don't know what a word means, it's snooty nonsense, but if there's a 50 cent word that they know, they're brilliant and it's great. The level of d( )uche in this video is off the charts.
And keep in mind that this is coming from people with their heads embedded so deeply in their own assholes that they continually say "ballistics" instead of "physics" even though it's actually less accurate than just saying physics in almost every context they use it. Get over yourselves. Geezus christ.
I think there's great value in using layman's terms when being educational to a broad audience - especially when it's largely unidirectional communication. The primary reason to deliberately use technical words is to save time - but if the broad audience doesn't understand it, then you're wasting their time (or losing them) instead. But these guys clearly don't agree with me on that, as they are very hypocritical with their strong opinions regarding language.
Shouldn't realism be in most cases good, as its what our brains are most used to? Ofcourse in some cases, certain effects like bloom of refractions or whatever visual noise might get in way of the game. When the game respects and functions as you would expect it to (expectation being your experience of the real world), isn't that a good thing?
To be honest, what the industry produces can hardly be called games. And modern game designers (not all of them) voluntary chained themself to the "game engines" which restricts them in many cases. So all they can do is to stamp their crappy "just-buy-me" games like on a conveyor belt. All they can do is to sell so called visuals which are an unneccesary waste of disk space.
I'm just starting watching, but I will say that while I don't think the Uncharted games generally do a lot right for me in terms of gameplay (narrative, they hit it out of the park), I do like that they use the color yellow to indicate the intended path of the player. Much better than The White Diamond that is so prevalent these days to indicate what is and isn't important.
@Frozen Sea I think Eternal does it better since the actual jump walls (?) have green light. In uncharted the yellow object are sometimes a bit forced and thus may break immersion.
dudes and duddettes... dont ask me long form questions in voice form... ill zone out... ill probably forget you are asking me a question... i wont react... long form questions will break me
Love you Jon and Casey but that whole ""Diegetic" being game design school speak" was pretty cring. Diegesis can be aplied to more than narration in a story. Idk, I thought it would be pretty obvious from the getgo.
"in world" is literally faster to say, "diagetic" just serves as a signifier you're a special boy plus the universities (doubly so the humanities) are massively cringe, so any sort of jargon that comes out of that world is cringe by association
@@chrisc7265 ? I dont know what they teach you there but the idea of a "diagetic narrator" has been taught to us since like the 5th grade and it has never been a point os confusion to even the lowest caring students.
@@BinaryDood whereabouts are you? I actually went to art school (east coast usa), and the term never came up (don't get me wrong we learned plenty of other cringe stuff but not "diagetic")
@@BinaryDood ah okay. I've only heard the term from game design grads (though obviously the game design professors took it from somewhere, not saying they invented it). It has a goober quality here since it's closely associated with that niche and doesn't really justify its existence as a new word semantically --- the only reason to use it is the added signifier of "I am educated/ high class/ etc". But I'm sure it differs by region and language.
If a thing in a game is an allegory to something in the real life like a plant or a human, it should have at least a hint of the real world variability. Otherwise by breaking the analogy and making something that should vary into homogeneous blob you can create an illusion of a pattern and misguide player or even make a political statement and get canceled :D I think the goal is to make game play related variability consistent but orthogonal to the variability that exists as an innate part of an allegory instead of "cheating" and making everything uniform and uncanny. Minimalist art style can certainly help in creating simplified representation of the real World. But the way it reduces complexity should be consistent.
we do know now, that color is real as it coresponds to the electro magnetic frequency of photons. while our eyes only percive some spectrum of light and in 3 seperate main frequencies. it is only resonable to assume that an other species could preceive other frequencies and in different quantity. those properties are not made up, they are only incomplete. they exist in the universe.
@@amooseinaroom1228 Yes the same holds for any sensation, you don't need to discover the particle responsible first. Sensory qualities are real and any argument against that fact depends upon it.
@@amooseinaroom1228 I don't know about you but I am not making a game for dogs. What reality is does not matter since gamedev and what Blow was talking about concerns more-so intuition and is generally a priori unlike science. Maybe you thought I was talking about another question?
@@amooseinaroom1228 oh you probably misread my comment. i said made up of both not made up. English is my third language sorry for the misunderstanding.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 68 | คู่เอก "พระจันทร์ฉาย vs โจนาธาน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/F3IM3w-XchI/mqdefault.jpg)
Casey took too little time to ask the question.
He needs more cowbell in his answer too
It took only about 3 minutes and 45 seconds. Dissapointed.
youre just using reverse psychology
Yeah, he'll spot that your trying to use reverse psychology so he'll still ask in a long winded way.
he didn't make me nearly as angry as I was expecting
The amount of times of pressed "E" on random plants or tried to mine decoration rocks in a survival game is insane.
00:35 Aesthetic vs function in art direction.
15:03 Art direction and relevance.
29:37 Interactive items should be salient.
40:01 Looking at where the attention goes.
46:55 Game should communicate the affordances to a player. Realistic artstyle and AAA graphics rant.
1:01:41 On commenting on well selling games.
Not all hero’s wear capes thank you
1:16:45 Random scream in the background
I just wanna thank both of you for constantly posting quality content like this, have a nice day!
They tak an awful lot about "familiarity" without ever mentioning the word "familiarity".
Blow/Muratori: You don't have to read Heidegger but the Wikipedia entry for "Dreyfus model of skill acquisition" is a good starting point for this topic. TLDR: Build familiarity so that when you break from it it becomes obvious.
The Dishonored series also has a detective mode called Dark Vision, which is utterly aggravating. It tints the whole game orange and then shows you all the collectables through walls etc., so the best way to play the game as a completionist is to experience it entirely in its ugly orange mode.
Replace orange with sepia and playing entirely in that mode sounds pretty close to sepia + color mode that they said no one has the balls to do because they are too conformist.
I notice something about old school FPS games, the graphics are more abstract and it's easier for your mind to pick out what's important/interactable - which if my eyes pick it out naturally it increases the immersion.
Well exactly. The limitations produce distinct design parameters visually. As games look more and more realistic looking it's becoming more difficult to communicate the rules and design choices to players.
Yes, C.S. 1.6 is a good example.
Our eyes have short-medium-long wave cones, which pretty much translates to blue, green and red. Tetrachromats have the fourth kind of cones, so yeah, they see color differences where I would see the same color (that's how they are tested) and because camera sees as I do, the photo of something might be somewhat off related to the thing itself.
I would imagine that partially removing one of RGB values from a photo might produce comparable results for me.
I think when like hunting birds. You try to hide in green plants with green camoflague clothes. The problem is that plants reflects green light, camoflage clothes reflects yellow and blue light and most birds is tetrachromates and you probably stick out in a totaly different color than the suronding for them.
Really appreciate these types of in-depth discussions. I think though Casey's sound-levels are frequently clipping due to his gain being too high on his end? I would say aim for -20 to -10 dB on obs (on raw input, no levels applied, if that's what you're using) Would love to see a more balanced and nice sounding mix between Jonathan and Casey's voices. ** Does another bird-song puzzle **
In Resident Evi I constantly pressed the action button every where just in case I was missing a non shiny acquirable item.
Thanks for giving us this information for free, really means alot. :D
It's nothing that will change for me over night, but I will practice and consider these aspects for my projects.
This man is awesome in teaching...
Realistic textures are incredibly noisy and detailed in an unimportant way, trying to herd them all into something coherent seems daunting.
Agreed. Realism can be important but you have to pick and choose the aspects of realism that really matter the most and "cut corners" where you can
I can't remember what game was it, but there was a game where you could easily tell which doors were interactive and which were decoration. Interactive doors were clearly game objects, they were 3d and light interacted differently with them. The decoration doors were flat, just a texture on a wall.
The genius thing about this game was that one of this flat texture doors was actually openable and lead to a secret room. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but breaking a convention like that is a really smart way of hiding things.
la noir
Classic tomb raider?
Isn't it kind of bad, like in a general sense, to do stuff like this? Only an insane person would repeatedly try to enter these doors to find anything, or somebody looking for secrets. But it nevertheless turns the game into "bump into every door, just in case this one behaves differently from the others". Gambling works on exactly the same principle, but rewards there are far more frequent to keep people playing.
Thanks for uploading!
one of the things that I always thought would be really cool would be if screens actually had 4 pixels, and either it would be UV (low luminosity black light) or maybe almost IR... the idea being that this colour would be essentially imperceptible, and you could essentially paint "auras" or highlight certain things on the screen as a way to intuitively guide people to look at certain things
The Pit Bull of programming
48:33
Metal Gear Solid V does not have a dedicated "detective mode." Casey was probably confusing that with the fact that you can tag enemies so you always have an overlay for them.
What about the night vision goggles that make important objects glow?
1:30:41 "You know what it would be actually?" The Witness! I'm always comparing the Witness to James Joyce. Starts with "Fox in Socks," ends contemplating the trinity, gnostic apotheosis, two dozen other things including Ulysses.
First time I noticed key moments in the video being marked up with dots on the timeline, distinct from how chapters are handled.
I would’ve said this seems obvious after hearing it, but now that I’ve heard it, I can definitely think of several instances where game designers have made the wrong decision with this topic- like the alchemy system in kingdom come deliverance when you’re gathering ingredients.
Based on a online tetrachromacy test, which might be bs, I have tetrachromacy. Based on that test, I would say compared to a normal person, the difference isn't that huge. There's just more different hues of yellowish-green and cyan that I can discern, that normal person would see as just one same hue, not that I can see entirely different color called splurgo, that others can't see . Another thing I noticed, that yellow and one shade of purple looked lot more bright, than the other hues.
I guess one thing is that the color of water in games is usually unrealistic, it's usually made symbolically more blue than what it actually is.
Moo9
Ostensibly, JB uses the word Ostensibly ostensibly.
O Brother, Where Art Thou?
I see a lot worst than that, object that look the same but doesn't had same functionality, like a can on tye ground pickable and other not, or a fence climbable and other not and so on...
For the first question, Rain World is an excellent example of that visual design done right.
I started watching ur video on compiler and how parsing and compiling books are bad, but now i cant find it. What books would u suggest to learn about making languages?
Is there a term in ludology analogous to Chekhov's Gun from literature? If not, might I propose "Blow's Cactus"?
ludology encompasses many nonvideo games. for a long time, boardgames and tabletop wargames have plenty of art which function to communicate unique rules (such as terrain movement costs, cover, and other properties)
Thumbnail moment at 17:38 you're welcome
Minimaps and Skyrim compass has a lot of similar design problems as detective mode.
True but they are so painfully boring and don't apply a shader over the whole screen. Both mean that the player is more likely to look at the actual game.
yeah lmao why have a beautiful world when you can beat the whole thing staring at the compass.
7 months now and i have no idea whats going on since I dont use twitter
46:04 As far as I can tell, simulators are games where being realistic is an advantage. It's literally about recreating the experience of something from real life, but the main differences being that you can do it with no real-life risks, that the experience is on-demand and that you usually have more control than even a wealthy entrepreneur would have. And I suppose you could argue those are unrealistic, but as far as I could tell, Jon was only talking about art style.
There's no need to be so dismissive of diegesis. It is a well-understood concept from film and litterature.
I'm sure Casey knows the value of nomenclature, including how it can make communication more concise and unambiguous.
it seems like they just discredit everything they dont know immediately.
@@ipotrick6686 yeah I think when it comes to chat or the public they tend to have a pretty closed mind, but honestly that's fair considering it would probably fuck you up to take twitch chat/youtube comments too seriously.
maybe you guys should join the discussion and educate them?
@@blackdragoncool Making a devlog and/or sharing your thoughts and ideas can be very valuable contributions both to your world, your legacy (if you care), your brand (awareness) - and it can help be a mental break from deep dive work, where you get some exposure to fresh perspectives or get a chance to voice your thoughts in a different way.
If you want good advice or perspective though, it's overwhelmingly more productive to access people in your network who has expertise in that field. And I've been curious for a while if chats have much value beyond leaning into parasocial relations - and what other opportunities are left than chats that overrepresent ignorance and disrespect.
I think the reason people are so critical of elite jargon is not because there's no reason to have jargon, it's because the elites who use this jargon are so mediocre
58:48 "the game ends up looking like your org chart"
Yeah, Conway's law is probably the closest thing (so far) there is to actual "laws" in software development. I think it's a very powerful insight indeed.
LOL i love listening to these talks and im still in college :O and the biggest software ive worked on is a discord bot
relatable comment. But I am pretty sure interest in things like this is very very high in college. this is basically made for uni student
Detective mode, haha just like journalist mode
Did he hit his head? At 19:21, it looks like he has a plaster on his head.
Hey!
Starts off with complete contempt for petty whiners, this'll be great :D
100% agree with the cookie cutter open world games commentary. And ESPECIALLY detective/x-ray/eagle-eye-mode. Why not constrain it to either a resource (so you have to carefully choose wether to use it) or just make the character not able to move while using it. There has to be a price for this 'cheat'.
2:34 The question
3:28 The question
26:02 The question
clocale bruh
I really enjoy these discussions but the Q&A's can be a bit hostile towards the people asking questions. For example, the question about diegetic UI was lambasted for using the supposedly over-academic term diegetic. I myself have never studied game design in depth but am familiar from diegesis from literature and film. I instantly knew what the asker meant as it is a broad term that translates well across mediums. To me it seemed like the best word to use in this case. It felt a bit unfair to assume the asker was fetishising terminology. It is possible to ask someone to clarify a word without insults.
John please blink if your alive. Where you at buddy. Starting to get worried.
He's active on Twitter and streams all the time on Twitch. He's even streaming right now. Don't know why he doesn't post to TH-cam that much anymore.
@@qvindicator You’re the hero I needed thank you ❤️
acktually can we talk about the problematic dismissal of ludological diegesis . .. . .. . . . .. .
With all due respect (I am very grateful to be going through the entirety of Handmade Hero at the moment) perhaps Casey should consider taking his own (well-put) advice about "writing the usage code first" and not trying to design API architectures upfront when it comes to game design: I feel like his main question here, and the one in the previous talk, are both prime examples of him attempting to put the cart before the horse, something which he always advises against in the programming domain. I can understand his general anxiety towards game design as he's always had a distaste for designing games (saying it's not his thing, maybe a sentiment fueled by his earlier failures) and shown a lot of (a little too much, IMO) eagerness in saying that game code should be written by game designers, but it seems to me like he's going astray with his perceived clean separation between the domains of game design and programming.
That's why John Carmack had functions that are 10k lines of code each, so he could extract commonalities into idempotent functions later. I'm sure Jonathan Blow said this on his language talks in 2014 also.
"game code should be written by game designers" did you mean "should not"? It's hard to make sense of your comment otherwise.
@@SimGunther Yeah Casey calls it "semantic compression", extracting code you have actually written several times already, rather than trying to predict what functions you might need in the future. But these guys have made so many games already, I'm sure they can predict at least some elements of the architecture ahead of time, reducing redesign time. Actually if I remember correctly, Carmack was claiming he sometimes DIDN'T extract commonalities from large functions, because they were clearer when left in-line. Although the idempotent parts probably wouldn't benefit from that.
@@davidste60 Sorry, the context was: On several occasions in Handmade Hero, when Casey is asked when he'll get to gameplay code (as opposed to engine/infrastructure code), he specifically calls out game logic code (i.e. interactions between game entities) as something he doesn't enjoy writing, and regards it as something he would rather have game designers do.
@@deneb112 Oh I see, that does make sense.
offtop. Can you say to Cassey to disable automatic translation for video on Molly Rocket channel? Because on Russian his series Handmade hero day N translates something like "day of a handjob hero N"))
Im waiting fow a new upload man, what are you up to ? :)
какое пиво пьешь, муэик?
Carts and horses sold exceptionally well when cars were invented ;)
Jon, where can I download the Jai compiler?
Ive seen this a few times now where Blow and Casey gets upset at "design school speech" but issent it useful to have words that describe a specific thing like the person said "diegetic ui" which is much more concise and clear than saying "is the ui integrated into the world vs is it like a word that pops up like open" assuming you know what the word means. Is the problem really that people use new words or is the problem that they dont want to learn new words?
Im guessing that word didnt need to exist when they learned this stuff since it didnt really exist back then but since then started to pop up so now there is a word for it. I mean communication is already hard and this attitude of "they are fetishizing words" seems like it will only add additional barriers. And i dont mean this word specifically, i mean new words in general.
I like how Casey referenced Conway's law a couple minutes later, like that's not an equally obscure
term.
tooPrime but Conway's law is probably the most important thing you should now for any large project. I can't think of something that can fail a project harder than not knowing this law
@Captain Cyberspace what is your point? teaching words can go wrong???
@@UGPepe likewise i cannot imagine anyone interested in art that could not infer the meaning and importance of diegetic ui like Casey did.
jac1011 he did infer the meaning, not sure about importance :)
I am a Chinese college student, speaking "Crazy Game Philosophy" in my class, and I am a brother-in-law far away from home.
anyone else feel like this gets continuously harder to listen to and less well reasoned past like the 40 minute mark?
like...yeah, if you want to focus on moving an artform forward, you're going to be left out of the big money scene and you'll have to appeal to a narrower slice of the population
that's not the same as "if you took all the art assets away from AAA games there's nothing left and nobody would play them"... this is basically sophistry
it's the same thing as unsuccessful musicians saying "yeah well if you take away all the production and promotion from pop music, it's not as technically interesting as prog rock so i wouldn't listen to it" - the hollywood producers getting rich off that stuff would say 'yeah, so? at least we know how to write a hook and get on the radio'
how about just be the indie artsy game design people and be comfortable with it? ignore the AAA stuff you aren't competing with anyway?
They're not wrong but my contention with that jab is that a AAA game with all the bells and whistles CAN be a valuable thing in and of itself. Red Dead 2 is pretty hollow but the graphical fidelity and art assets make it an alluring experience, at least for me. But yeah, I would never play it if it looked bad.
What happened to jai? Is it going to be an update soon?
Johnatan blow looks like machiavelli
ha I never noticed that, they also have a similar way of viewing the world
JAI RELEASE WHEN :::DDD
where did you go?
I love how jon and casey make fun of someone using the word "diegetic" (which is a pretty well known word in cinema) and saying shit like game design school speech or whatever just because they don't know it, then proceed to talk about "systemic game design" which is as buzzword as you can get, THEN proceed to make fun of the person who talked about "visual story"
tone it down with the toxicity seriously
its really sad to see that John is so unreflected
I thought it was a joke lmaooo I thought he was taking a quick jab at himself.
how can you say, "systemic game design", with less or more common words?
Diegetic is a useful word, what's with all the hate
Yeah, there's a ton of field specific vocabulary that's used in all disciplines, diegetic is common enough to be useful for people to think, and communicate more clearly and concisely with each other. Just because something is a new concept for you doesn't mean it's inherently bad, but I definitely understand that that's a very human tendency in all of us.
If they don't know what a word means, it's snooty nonsense, but if there's a 50 cent word that they know, they're brilliant and it's great.
The level of d( )uche in this video is off the charts.
And keep in mind that this is coming from people with their heads embedded so deeply in their own assholes that they continually say "ballistics" instead of "physics" even though it's actually less accurate than just saying physics in almost every context they use it. Get over yourselves. Geezus christ.
I think there's great value in using layman's terms when being educational to a broad audience - especially when it's largely unidirectional communication. The primary reason to deliberately use technical words is to save time - but if the broad audience doesn't understand it, then you're wasting their time (or losing them) instead. But these guys clearly don't agree with me on that, as they are very hypocritical with their strong opinions regarding language.
"in world". less syllables, less cringe.
1:16:45 who died outside your place?? 😂
Sorry for what i did. Sorry for what i did. Sorry for what i did. Sorry for what i did. Sorry for what i did.
好久不見
Shouldn't realism be in most cases good, as its what our brains are most used to? Ofcourse in some cases, certain effects like bloom of refractions or whatever visual noise might get in way of the game. When the game respects and functions as you would expect it to (expectation being your experience of the real world), isn't that a good thing?
To be honest, what the industry produces can hardly be called games. And modern game designers (not all of them) voluntary chained themself to the "game engines" which restricts them in many cases. So all they can do is to stamp their crappy "just-buy-me" games like on a conveyor belt. All they can do is to sell so called visuals which are an unneccesary waste of disk space.
I'm just starting watching, but I will say that while I don't think the Uncharted games generally do a lot right for me in terms of gameplay (narrative, they hit it out of the park), I do like that they use the color yellow to indicate the intended path of the player. Much better than The White Diamond that is so prevalent these days to indicate what is and isn't important.
@Frozen Sea I think Eternal does it better since the actual jump walls (?) have green light. In uncharted the yellow object are sometimes a bit forced and thus may break immersion.
What is The White Diamond? Is that a white UI element shaped like a diamond which is constantly present on screen to show you where your objective is?
Uploaded 10min ago 12 upvotes 3 downvotes
dudes and duddettes... dont ask me long form questions in voice form... ill zone out... ill probably forget you are asking me a question... i wont react... long form questions will break me
Love you Jon and Casey but that whole ""Diegetic" being game design school speak" was pretty cring. Diegesis can be aplied to more than narration in a story. Idk, I thought it would be pretty obvious from the getgo.
"in world" is literally faster to say, "diagetic" just serves as a signifier you're a special boy
plus the universities (doubly so the humanities) are massively cringe, so any sort of jargon that comes out of that world is cringe by association
@@chrisc7265 ? I dont know what they teach you there but the idea of a "diagetic narrator" has been taught to us since like the 5th grade and it has never been a point os confusion to even the lowest caring students.
@@BinaryDood whereabouts are you? I actually went to art school (east coast usa), and the term never came up (don't get me wrong we learned plenty of other cringe stuff but not "diagetic")
@@chrisc7265 I'm from Portugal. Diegesis even in our early literature teaching was something expected for you to know what it is.
@@BinaryDood ah okay. I've only heard the term from game design grads (though obviously the game design professors took it from somewhere, not saying they invented it). It has a goober quality here since it's closely associated with that niche and doesn't really justify its existence as a new word semantically --- the only reason to use it is the added signifier of "I am educated/ high class/ etc".
But I'm sure it differs by region and language.
If a thing in a game is an allegory to something in the real life like a plant or a human, it should have at least a hint of the real world variability. Otherwise by breaking the analogy and making something that should vary into homogeneous blob you can create an illusion of a pattern and misguide player or even make a political statement and get canceled :D
I think the goal is to make game play related variability consistent but orthogonal to the variability that exists as an innate part of an allegory instead of "cheating" and making everything uniform and uncanny. Minimalist art style can certainly help in creating simplified representation of the real World. But the way it reduces complexity should be consistent.
Yikes at that 8 oz water bottle
What does it even mean?
@@microcolonel look in the back right of the frame its out of focus so its hard to see
@@sporefergieboy10 but what makes that yikes?
@@microcolonel do you even drink water bro? 8 ounces is BABY LEVEL
@@microcolonel ABGW bro, Always Be Drinking Water
We, in a literal sense, only perceive color and movement with our eyes. everything we see is made up of both. That question was a little stupid imo.
we do know now, that color is real as it coresponds to the electro magnetic frequency of photons.
while our eyes only percive some spectrum of light and in 3 seperate main frequencies.
it is only resonable to assume that an other species could preceive other frequencies and in different quantity.
those properties are not made up, they are only incomplete. they exist in the universe.
@@amooseinaroom1228 Yes the same holds for any sensation, you don't need to discover the particle responsible first. Sensory qualities are real and any argument against that fact depends upon it.
@@amooseinaroom1228 I don't know about you but I am not making a game for dogs. What reality is does not matter since gamedev and what Blow was talking about concerns more-so intuition and is generally a priori unlike science.
Maybe you thought I was talking about another question?
@@amooseinaroom1228 oh you probably misread my comment. i said made up of both not made up. English is my third language sorry for the misunderstanding.
@@jac1011 oh "made up" as in "consists of both", my bad :D