I was thinking for a minute how the TB would target the aggressive males, then it hit me... TB didn't target anything. The aggressive males ate first. They were dominant so they pushed away the less aggressive males, ate first, and died due to the tainted meat. Leaving the less aggressive males to take over. Crazy.
youtubasoarus The garbage dump was a couple miles away and dominated by another troop, so only the aggressive males would fight the other troop for access to the dump,
@@marcusulmer4142 Right, so as a solution to the dominant male baboon question, if TB killed all of the dominant male baboons in the other troop too, then no one would have to fight, and they could finally be free to evolve into something beyond the proverbial baboon.
No, you were partially correct to begin with. In conjunction with their androgenic temperament earning them the karma Dar ... award, testosterone is an immunosuppressant, and some *viruses* (not TB / bacteria but side-note) even particularly exploit the overall androgenic.
I don't know why this lesson hasn't been encouraged in more office groups these days. Productivity would go up if adults weren't so childishly focussed on social games.
nytehawx The male adolescents in the next generation took 6 months to modify their behavior and learned to be "good guys," so the decreased aggression seen in this troop is not just a result of the decreased male:female ratio. “No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.” - Nelson Mandela
@@CountBifford Yes, and in human contexts that's called a revolution. Like it or not, the rivers of blood were necessary to re-establish France as a republic. You had to completely destroy the old dominance hierarchies. Peacefully when possible...violently when necessary.
@LightWarrior Yep, societies will either change or die from aggression (physical, verbal, or social) overkill. Difference is that people both power-hungry and aggressive will keep being that way, as they get a 'charge' out of winning social dominance contests (or even mere massacres). In humans, at a much higher level of day-to-day living and thinking, that diverts other people's energies from actual productive or culturally redeeming tasks and into back-watching, turf wars, and petty social-gossip in-fighting. The independent-minded perceptive people leave ASAP, further hamstringing talent development and task accomplishment. So in the long run, the least macho societies thrive; the tough macho ones hamstring their own prosperity at best and destroy themselves at worst.
@LightWarrior Bio-warfare: I know of only the Mongols, early colonial era British, and the WW2 Japanese who've used it. None of them non-macho societies (although with the Brits, they used subterfuge instead of actual direct warfare, sending smallpox infected blankets). In the end, it's whether or not the society hamstrings its "considerably less than satisfactory" members from developing their talents. ("considerably...satisfactory" here meaning "uncompetitive", "weak", "weird", "defective", "don't look or act like us", etc). History's littered with examples of a society hurting an out-group, only to have that group prosper and contribute to rival societies. The new land gains talent and wealth at the old homeland's expense.
Essentially, this shows that a society without alpha males would work and sustain itself. To this day, any would be alpha arriving to the Keekorok troop is ganged up on. Either they conform, or they leave. Or they are killed, if they keep trying to impose their will. Remember everyone, this alphaless troop has sustained itself for thirty years. Since the less aggressive males get to breed, it's their behaviors that pass on. And thus far, they have been able to resist any outsider alpha that has come their way. I imagine it's because of superior numbers; I don't care how tough you are, you can't take on thirty plus opponents. No alpha is really fearless, especially when out numbered.
funny that Alpha males online, want to teach you to be alpha, so in fact they are not alpha, they are only acting egotistical, be alpha, be first, its all about you.. and those alphas ate first and died, so the Alpha males were not that smart after all, just aggressive, dominating and narcissistic ,, A holes
Dr. Sapolsky states that half the males died from tuberculosis, rendering the male:female ration to 1:2. Could it be that since there are a lot more females, males don't need to compete as often?
Genetically engineered to kill off all of the dominant male baboons or just restart their species altogether; sparing only the meek, genuinely feminine baboons to inherit the Savannah.
.... so this is may sound a bit shitty... but, how do we cull (or humanely assimilate) the overly aggressive humans in our population? Do we have to have a "TB" type situation? Can we only educate aggressive adolescents? Are older aggressive humans just set in their ways like concrete?... and if gender is a spectrum (which I believe), women can be overtly aggressive as well... in fact I know women who are overtly aggressive, but would the the tactic, culling or assimilating, be the same? *so many question!!!!!*
Simple. The whole troop ganged up on the new males. Either they comformed, ran away, or were killed. The smart ones learn that if they want to survive, they'll conform and give up wanting to be alpha.
But it's going the opposite way. The good people who followed the rules stayed home. The aggressive jerks kept going out without masks and while refusing to get vaccinated. Yeah, some of them died off, but not in high enough numbers to change a culture. And they infected a lot of good people in the process who they demanded work to serve them. Now we're seeing a 20-year setback in traffic safety, plus higher levels of aggression in public spaces, more social division, and higher stress for everyone.
Basically, we need to punish traits we are currently rewarding. Confidence and aggression need to become treated as antisocial behaviors, the punishment for engaging in such behaviors needs to be swift and terrible, possibly leading to job loss and social isolation. Concilliatory behavior, cooperative behavior, needs to be socially rewarded correspondingly with access to resources and social praise. Basically, having too much swagger should get you knocked to the bottom of the totem pole.
Wouldn't it be awesome if humans could accomplish something similar with their free will and choices. Humans were never the strongest or the fastest creatures. Our survival as animals happened primarily due to our ability to act together as a tribe. Winning and coming in first is celebrated but often doesn't bring real satisfaction and happiness long term. Seems we have evolved with a need to be of service to the group that is not often acknowledged by our competition loving culture. So many anti depressants being prescribed. Might we actually have TB tainted meat in the form of stress related heart disease and a climbing suicide rate? Put your fear aside and be kind and be of service first. How hard can it be?
@@ZeeJayBay Yes, I've watched it. I uploaded this video. I don't really follow your point. They mentioned jerky baboons would wander in and eventually adopt their style. We were just saying it would be interesting to see what would happen if an equally sized group of normal baboons came in contact with them. Would the vicious ones terrorize the peaceful group and eventually dominate, or would they also learn to be peaceful. It would be an interesting process to watch.
Has he ever mentioned what happened to the females’ behavior as a result of the disappearance of alphas? I think there’s an argument to be made that while it may seem like a good thing at first for a nicer, less aggressive society, eventually Mother Nature, time, and natural selection will win and the next step above them in the food chain will find some easy meals.
I see the appeal of doing away with the alpha male but it seems like a fantasy ideal that human beta guys want so badly. Don't get me wrong, I consider myself a beta, maybe even an omega (which is what people are really talking about when they talk about betas).Unfortunately alpha males may still be a necessity in some respects but this video doesn't address that. I love the idea of a more enlightened, peaceful society but some higher testosterone based behaviours are very constructive in the right places, ie. exploration and pushing into physical and academic frontiers which scare people.
+Ryan Gauvreau exactl, I'm not an alpha but I am an explorer. I've always loved pushing myself into places of fear. The only way I've found to overcome fear is to confront it head on. Plus fear can be fun, the adrenaline rsh is amazing. I guess I am an adrenaline junkie.
Humans are on a MUCH higher cognitive level than baboons, though. With our technology-based living (i.e. anything more advanced than a simple spear or club) and capacity for formal education, we can see the limits of alpha behavior AND communicate those concepts much more efficiently via our words than through baboon howls and screeches.
"..And this is the problem: all primates-clear back to squirrel monkeys and old-world monkeys-all primates form dominance hierarchies. This means that the sharp-fanged, hard-bodied young males control everybody else. The women, the elderly, the sick, the children, homosexuals-everybody finds their place somewhere in this dominance hierarchy run by these dominant alpha males. We are no different." - Terence Mckenna
I was thinking for a minute how the TB would target the aggressive males, then it hit me... TB didn't target anything. The aggressive males ate first. They were dominant so they pushed away the less aggressive males, ate first, and died due to the tainted meat. Leaving the less aggressive males to take over. Crazy.
youtubasoarus The garbage dump was a couple miles away and dominated by another troop, so only the aggressive males would fight the other troop for access to the dump,
Where did they say males took over anything?
Natural selection, taking themselves out.
@@marcusulmer4142 Right, so as a solution to the dominant male baboon question, if TB killed all of the dominant male baboons in the other troop too, then no one would have to fight, and they could finally be free to evolve into something beyond the proverbial baboon.
No, you were partially correct to begin with. In conjunction with their androgenic temperament earning them the karma Dar ... award, testosterone is an immunosuppressant, and some *viruses* (not TB / bacteria but side-note) even particularly exploit the overall androgenic.
I don't know why this lesson hasn't been encouraged in more office groups these days. Productivity would go up if adults weren't so childishly focussed on social games.
Robert Sapolsky for President
Hell yeah
nytehawx The male adolescents in the next generation took 6 months to modify their behavior and learned to be "good guys," so the decreased aggression seen in this troop is not just a result of the decreased male:female ratio.
“No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.” - Nelson Mandela
+CountBifford Or a conveniently-selective disaster.
@@CountBifford Yes, and in human contexts that's called a revolution. Like it or not, the rivers of blood were necessary to re-establish France as a republic. You had to completely destroy the old dominance hierarchies. Peacefully when possible...violently when necessary.
@LightWarrior Yep, societies will either change or die from aggression (physical, verbal, or social) overkill. Difference is that people both power-hungry and aggressive will keep being that way, as they get a 'charge' out of winning social dominance contests (or even mere massacres). In humans, at a much higher level of day-to-day living and thinking, that diverts other people's energies from actual productive or culturally redeeming tasks and into back-watching, turf wars, and petty social-gossip in-fighting. The independent-minded perceptive people leave ASAP, further hamstringing talent development and task accomplishment. So in the long run, the least macho societies thrive; the tough macho ones hamstring their own prosperity at best and destroy themselves at worst.
@LightWarrior Bio-warfare: I know of only the Mongols, early colonial era British, and the WW2 Japanese who've used it. None of them non-macho societies (although with the Brits, they used subterfuge instead of actual direct warfare, sending smallpox infected blankets). In the end, it's whether or not the society hamstrings its "considerably less than satisfactory" members from developing their talents. ("considerably...satisfactory" here meaning "uncompetitive", "weak", "weird", "defective", "don't look or act like us", etc). History's littered with examples of a society hurting an out-group, only to have that group prosper and contribute to rival societies. The new land gains talent and wealth at the old homeland's expense.
Essentially, this shows that a society without alpha males would work and sustain itself. To this day, any would be alpha arriving to the Keekorok troop is ganged up on. Either they conform, or they leave. Or they are killed, if they keep trying to impose their will. Remember everyone, this alphaless troop has sustained itself for thirty years. Since the less aggressive males get to breed, it's their behaviors that pass on. And thus far, they have been able to resist any outsider alpha that has come their way. I imagine it's because of superior numbers; I don't care how tough you are, you can't take on thirty plus opponents. No alpha is really fearless, especially when out numbered.
funny that Alpha males online, want to teach you to be alpha, so in fact they are not alpha, they are only acting egotistical, be alpha, be first, its all about you.. and those alphas ate first and died, so the Alpha males were not that smart after all, just aggressive, dominating and narcissistic ,, A holes
Dr. Sapolsky states that half the males died from tuberculosis, rendering the male:female ration to 1:2. Could it be that since there are a lot more females, males don't need to compete as often?
Other troops with the same ratio don't act this way.
@@AMortalDothApproach That's not true.
So we gotta get all the dudes in the world to get TB?
"You do not *dump* on a female if you're in a bad mood."
- Robert Morris Sapolsky
This was my intro to university levels of human behavior studies
all we need is a tuberculosis outbreak!! This is f*%^&!! amazing
Poison the males. U missed the point.
This tuberculosis killed the toxic males. What we need is a guillotine, you mean.
@M T Lol, exactly this.
Hahaha!!! COVID maybe ?
Genetically engineered to kill off all of the dominant male baboons or just restart their species altogether; sparing only the meek, genuinely feminine baboons to inherit the Savannah.
Wow... That's some powerful stuff...
.... so this is may sound a bit shitty... but, how do we cull (or humanely assimilate) the overly aggressive humans in our population? Do we have to have a "TB" type situation? Can we only educate aggressive adolescents? Are older aggressive humans just set in their ways like concrete?... and if gender is a spectrum (which I believe), women can be overtly aggressive as well... in fact I know women who are overtly aggressive, but would the the tactic, culling or assimilating, be the same? *so many question!!!!!*
Reading your book m8
Hi, do you know what documentary this is from?
"Stress: Portrait of a Killer" natgeo documentary
@@cinsolidarity Thanks!
During the 6 month transition period away from aggression how were the new males 'stopped' from having their behaviour ruin the tribes dynamic?
Simple. The whole troop ganged up on the new males. Either they comformed, ran away, or were killed. The smart ones learn that if they want to survive, they'll conform and give up wanting to be alpha.
I really feel like something similar is happening in human societies during the COVID-19 pandemic.
But it's going the opposite way. The good people who followed the rules stayed home. The aggressive jerks kept going out without masks and while refusing to get vaccinated. Yeah, some of them died off, but not in high enough numbers to change a culture. And they infected a lot of good people in the process who they demanded work to serve them. Now we're seeing a 20-year setback in traffic safety, plus higher levels of aggression in public spaces, more social division, and higher stress for everyone.
Ironic that the guy who does not believe in free will also says we have no excuse in how we (choose) to set up social systems.
Basically, we need to punish traits we are currently rewarding. Confidence and aggression need to become treated as antisocial behaviors, the punishment for engaging in such behaviors needs to be swift and terrible, possibly leading to job loss and social isolation. Concilliatory behavior, cooperative behavior, needs to be socially rewarded correspondingly with access to resources and social praise. Basically, having too much swagger should get you knocked to the bottom of the totem pole.
try telling that to the tate followers.... I can hear them screaming now in disbelief
👀🤔
Wouldn't it be awesome if humans could accomplish something similar with their free will and choices. Humans were never the strongest or the fastest creatures. Our survival as animals happened primarily due to our ability to act together as a tribe. Winning and coming in first is celebrated but often doesn't bring real satisfaction and happiness long term. Seems we have evolved with a need to be of service to the group that is not often acknowledged by our competition loving culture. So many anti depressants being prescribed. Might we actually have TB tainted meat in the form of stress related heart disease and a climbing suicide rate? Put your fear aside and be kind and be of service first. How hard can it be?
Great comment ! The neurobiology of we. Dan Siegel
Id love to see what happens when a equally sized "normal" group bumps into them.
totally. i wonder how that would play out as well
@@cinsolidarity Did yall not watch the video? They said this tribe has substained for 20 yrs. Alphas are disposable and thank for that.
@@ZeeJayBay Yes, I've watched it. I uploaded this video. I don't really follow your point. They mentioned jerky baboons would wander in and eventually adopt their style. We were just saying it would be interesting to see what would happen if an equally sized group of normal baboons came in contact with them. Would the vicious ones terrorize the peaceful group and eventually dominate, or would they also learn to be peaceful. It would be an interesting process to watch.
Has he ever mentioned what happened to the females’ behavior as a result of the disappearance of alphas?
I think there’s an argument to be made that while it may seem like a good thing at first for a nicer, less aggressive society, eventually Mother Nature, time, and natural selection will win and the next step above them in the food chain will find some easy meals.
Gaza
I see the appeal of doing away with the alpha male but it seems like a fantasy ideal that human beta guys want so badly. Don't get me wrong, I consider myself a beta, maybe even an omega (which is what people are really talking about when they talk about betas).Unfortunately alpha males may still be a necessity in some respects but this video doesn't address that. I love the idea of a more enlightened, peaceful society but some higher testosterone based behaviours are very constructive in the right places, ie. exploration and pushing into physical and academic frontiers which scare people.
Jeremy Lindemann And alpha males are the only people who explore or push into scary physical or academic frontiers?
+Tom Brader To clarify, I was trying to clarify Jeremy's implications, because, like you, I don't agree with them.
+Ryan Gauvreau exactl, I'm not an alpha but I am an explorer. I've always loved pushing myself into places of fear. The only way I've found to overcome fear is to confront it head on. Plus fear can be fun, the adrenaline rsh is amazing. I guess I am an adrenaline junkie.
being an asshole toward others is not the same thing as being fearless.
Humans are on a MUCH higher cognitive level than baboons, though. With our technology-based living (i.e. anything more advanced than a simple spear or club) and capacity for formal education, we can see the limits of alpha behavior AND communicate those concepts much more efficiently via our words than through baboon howls and screeches.
So basically we should do to our alpha males by revolution that which was done here by evolution! :)
It’s in the Bible - The meek shall inherit the earth.
There's plenty of precedent for this in human history. All it means is that an alpha outsider who really wants to will be able to impose his will.
How? All by themselves?
Did yall not watch the video? They said this tribe has substained for 20 yrs. Alphas are disposable and thank fuck for that.
"..And this is the problem: all primates-clear back to squirrel monkeys and old-world monkeys-all primates form dominance hierarchies. This means that the sharp-fanged, hard-bodied young males control everybody else. The women, the elderly, the sick, the children, homosexuals-everybody finds their place somewhere in this dominance hierarchy run by these dominant alpha males. We are no different." - Terence Mckenna