Hard to see if Haig's reputation can ever be restored to the level that it was before his death. The tag of butcher, donkey or unimaginative buffoon is patently unjustified. He will remain a controversial historical figure.
Good to hear something in a positive light on this man, being related it’s a nice bit! He did what he did and that’s what we are left with , love him or hate him !
Sir Beauvoir Delisle and his equation of good sportsmanship and sound military leadership made me chuckle. The most successful Corps commanding General in the Imperial Army was Arthur Currie, who was shaped like a pear and looked as if he'd never run a yard in his life.
The idea was not that every general got out and ran the 100 yard dash, rather that the principles of team play and team cooperation above one up-manship could make a real difference in overall performance of any group of people undertaking a group effort. For example, Douglas McArthur never understood this and so caused a great deal of unnecessary death in his later career.
A little late on commenting on this kecture, but Im struck by the kind stoicism embodied by the man in common to two orher generals in other wars - General Grant in the US Civil War and William Slim in WWII. The same significant trait of leadership, the same quiet encouragement and care for their soldiers in brutal, costly wars.
Accordingly to Andrew Marr, he had the biggest turnout by the British public at his funeral, Queen Mum was No 2 and Diana came in at No 3. Only when dead and buried did Lloyd George feel free to blame him for the losses of the Great War. John
Great presentation. From my limited knowledge, but, I could be wrong, I seem to remember that a lot of veterans attended his funeral. Says it all, I think.
Thanks for this lecture I always appreciate the western front association: for me however evidence based the lecture was I just couldn't take the relentless positivity on Haig in the end. That maybe my problem, but thanks again
It's annoying how on every video with Haig in the title, about a third of the comments are people who are totally closed to considering the ideas in the video and just regurgitate Lions lead by Donkeys. Ironic that these people will accuse Haig of inflexibility whilst being totally unwilling to change their mind on him in the face of reality, when most of what they are going on is tired old myths.
One never knows for sure about things. it's possible that Haig might have well understood the value of air observation, and for the sake of its development he threw the game to make it grossly evident that it was needed and that therefore it should be funded. One never knows for sure, but a team player may have thought that way, understanding that the real game was getting funds out of Parliament.
Really good presentation Clive. I'm a bit confused about the Billy Congreve quote though at around 20 mins. Why would Congreve think he'd been passed over for a corps comand when he was only a 25 year old Brigade major at the time? Seems a bit odd, are you sure you've got the quote right or perhaps confusing him with his father Walter Norris Congreve who comanded XIII corps in 1916?
A very fine lecture,i think the American Civil War telegraphed the future of warfare an emerging industrial superpower the north bludgeoning the south into defeat this same industrial superpower would be lethal to its enemies in the Second World War we move on to the Boer War a brave determined force takes on a army that has some learning to do but is backed by huge industrial complex its only going in the end one way.We come to the First World War and all armies are backed by big industrial machines aircraft are in their infancy cavalry rendered for the most part obsolete by the machine gun so no Blitz the war of movement is curtailed so how Haig or any other General could have fought the war differently on the Western Front is hard to see. I read that in an interview either before the war or just as it began Haig described how it would pan out and was remarkably accurate,moving on to today there is a lot of posturing going on but in an age of bigger bombs and ever faster missiles is it worth risking mankind for some pathetic political goal like restoring a former Empire or grabbing a load of sea water then we have the real future of warfare perhaps some clown playing God in a laboratory.
I am surprised that the WFAssn has still not examined whether the WW1 butcher's bill would have been significantly reduced if Smith-Dorrien had been commander of the BEF instead of French. His action at Le Cateau saved the BEF and neither French nor Haig ever acknowledged his work.
I suspect the quote attributed to Billy Congreve was actually made by his Father the General as it would be unusual for a major to command more than a battalion.
He had no idea what he was doing, count the dead and find testimonies of men who served under him, how he can be considered a hero is beyod all good sense and basic logic.
Haig kept the BEF fighting despite the French Army 1916 mutiny and the Russian surrender in 1917. The other main belligerents suffered greater casualties than Britain. Considering this, Haig didn't do a bad job.
@@IanCross-xj2gj people like this live off of exaggerated facts and outright myths you can find them under every single video related to the topic , its impossible to give a good response to them because they just shut the conversation down by being incredibly dense and outright stupid
While this was a fascinating insight into Haig in my opinion he was a cold blooded murderer, i understand it’s easy to look back at history with hindsight however at the time sending 10’s of thousands of men to their death for little or no gain in a fruitless and desperate attempt to get a grip on the war was unforgivable. I apologise in advance if this offends anyone, it’s just an honest opinion
haig was a complete buffoon who sent hundreds of thousands to their deaths in ww1 , using outdated tactics and believing in his own importance , even though senior officers , and counter intelligence , told him repeatedly that walking in to machine gun fire over open ground was not a very good idea , 😆 and yet he never seemed to get the message, continually repeating the process😆 the somme was a classic example , lions led by donkeys was a popular saying after the war and very apt indeed .
Ludendorff, of course, made this statement to draw attention away from the "bloody graveyard of the German army" which is how the Somme was judged by the German high command. Interestingly, in ridiculing the British command he questioned the competence of the German high command when they were subsequently beaten by those "donkeys"!
My grandfather was immensely proud to have served under Haig so much so he named my Father Douglas and myself in turn
He’s my 9th cousin 4times removed
Absolutely fascinating presentation, really puts Haigs compllexity as an individual and how those around him viewed him into perspective, excellent.
Hard to see if Haig's reputation can ever be restored to the level that it was before his death. The tag of butcher, donkey or unimaginative buffoon is patently unjustified. He will remain a controversial historical figure.
Good to hear something in a positive light on this man, being related it’s a nice bit! He did what he did and that’s what we are left with , love him or hate him !
Bit of a Haigiography?
Thank you very much for this!
Sir Beauvoir Delisle and his equation of good sportsmanship and sound military leadership made me chuckle.
The most successful Corps commanding General in the Imperial Army was Arthur Currie, who was shaped like a pear and looked as if he'd never run a yard in his life.
The idea was not that every general got out and ran the 100 yard dash, rather that the principles of team play and team cooperation above one up-manship could make a real difference in overall performance of any group of people undertaking a group effort. For example, Douglas McArthur never understood this and so caused a great deal of unnecessary death in his later career.
A little late on commenting on this kecture, but Im struck by the kind stoicism embodied by the man in common to two orher generals in other wars - General Grant in the US Civil War and William Slim in WWII.
The same significant trait of leadership, the same quiet encouragement and care for their soldiers in brutal, costly wars.
Very informative thanks v much
Accordingly to Andrew Marr, he had the biggest turnout by the British public at his funeral, Queen Mum was No 2 and Diana came in at No 3.
Only when dead and buried did Lloyd George feel free to blame him for the losses of the Great War.
John
Great presentation. From my limited knowledge, but, I could be wrong, I seem to remember that a lot of veterans attended his funeral. Says it all, I think.
Thanks for this lecture I always appreciate the western front association: for me however evidence based the lecture was I just couldn't take the relentless positivity on Haig in the end. That maybe my problem, but thanks again
👍 Same here. Felt a bit heavy handed, and frankly, I'm not buying it, either...
Clearly this paper is aimed at showing Haig in a favourable light. A more balanced appraisal would identify Haig's failures.
It's annoying how on every video with Haig in the title, about a third of the comments are people who are totally closed to considering the ideas in the video and just regurgitate Lions lead by Donkeys. Ironic that these people will accuse Haig of inflexibility whilst being totally unwilling to change their mind on him in the face of reality, when most of what they are going on is tired old myths.
there are such people under every video related to the topic , its genuinely tiring at this point
One never knows for sure about things. it's possible that Haig might have well understood the value of air observation, and for the sake of its development he threw the game to make it grossly evident that it was needed and that therefore it should be funded. One never knows for sure, but a team player may have thought that way, understanding that the real game was getting funds out of Parliament.
Really good presentation Clive. I'm a bit confused about the Billy Congreve quote though at around 20 mins. Why would Congreve think he'd been passed over for a corps comand when he was only a 25 year old Brigade major at the time? Seems a bit odd, are you sure you've got the quote right or perhaps confusing him with his father Walter Norris Congreve who comanded XIII corps in 1916?
A very fine lecture,i think the American Civil War telegraphed the future of warfare an emerging industrial superpower the north bludgeoning the south into defeat this same industrial superpower would be lethal to its enemies in the Second World War we move on to the Boer War a brave determined force takes on a army that has some learning to do but is backed by huge industrial complex its only going in the end one way.We come to the First World War and all armies are backed by big industrial machines aircraft are in their infancy cavalry rendered for the most part obsolete by the machine gun so no Blitz the war of movement is curtailed so how Haig or any other General could have fought the war differently on the Western Front is hard to see. I read that in an interview either before the war or just as it began Haig described how it would pan out and was remarkably accurate,moving on to today there is a lot of posturing going on but in an age of bigger bombs and ever faster missiles is it worth risking mankind for some pathetic political goal like restoring a former Empire or grabbing a load of sea water then we have the real future of warfare perhaps some clown playing God in a laboratory.
I am surprised that the WFAssn has still not examined whether the WW1 butcher's bill would have been significantly reduced if Smith-Dorrien had been commander of the BEF instead of French. His action at Le Cateau saved the BEF and neither French nor Haig ever acknowledged his work.
Given the attritional nature of the Western Front, impossible to prove such a hypothesis.
I suspect the quote attributed to Billy Congreve was actually made by his Father the General as it would be unusual for a major to command more than a battalion.
I just noticed your comment. I thought the same thing!
Yes. It turned into a Haighiography.
33:13 - interesting. In WW1 the Highland regiments wore kilts in the field??
He had no idea what he was doing, count the dead and find testimonies of men who served under him, how he can be considered a hero is beyod all good sense and basic logic.
Haig kept the BEF fighting despite the French Army 1916 mutiny and the Russian surrender in 1917. The other main belligerents suffered greater casualties than Britain. Considering this, Haig didn't do a bad job.
tell me you are ignorant without using the word ˝ignorant˝
He never paid a visit to the front line and treated his men as cannon fodder,his men meant nothing to him.
Both of these statements is untrue. Do a little research!
The contents of this paper clearly contradicts your observation.
@@IanCross-xj2gj people like this live off of exaggerated facts and outright myths you can find them under every single video related to the topic , its impossible to give a good response to them because they just shut the conversation down by being incredibly dense and outright stupid
While this was a fascinating insight into Haig in my opinion he was a cold blooded murderer, i understand it’s easy to look back at history with hindsight however at the time sending 10’s of thousands of men to their death for little or no gain in a fruitless and desperate attempt to get a grip on the war was unforgivable. I apologise in advance if this offends anyone, it’s just an honest opinion
More of a "murderer" than the French or German commanders?
The Western Front was an attritional campaign, so the butchers bill was going to be high irrespective of who was in command.
Who is the author accused of plagiarism?
haig was a complete buffoon who sent hundreds of thousands to their deaths in ww1 , using outdated tactics and believing in his own importance , even though senior officers , and counter intelligence , told him repeatedly that walking in to machine gun fire over open ground was not a very good idea , 😆 and yet he never seemed to get the message, continually repeating the process😆 the somme was a classic example , lions led by donkeys was a popular saying after the war and very apt indeed .
Not a fan then?
Ludendorff, of course, made this statement to draw attention away from the "bloody graveyard of the German army" which is how the Somme was judged by the German high command. Interestingly, in ridiculing the British command he questioned the competence of the German high command when they were subsequently beaten by those "donkeys"!
I would be interested to know what the German view of Haig was. Haig was competent and remained in the job until Wars end.