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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Please note that non-crucial animation factors (like the sector accelerating after releasing the piston) have been left out. The first clip shows an AEG gearbox functioning normally, with a full tooth piston.
In the second clip, we see a piston that has had a single tooth removed, and is being used with a full-tooth sector gear.
In the third clip, a full tooth piston is used with sector gear which has had a tooth removed.
We had this back in 2008. And airsofting has come a long ways since than.
Thank you for this piece of invaluable information! It really helped me when I started to build a high rof setup.
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@Paxton Kobe Instablaster :)
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@Paxton Kobe Happy to help =)
The song is called Aerodynamik, by the legendary Kraftwerk!
So key points (and please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. Remove the SAME amount of teeth from BOTH the piston and sector gear
2. Remove them from the ends (on the piston & gear) that catch FIRST (?)
3. If all the teeth are metal, wear and tear will be minimal vs plastic teeth
Shortstroking is one of many things you can do to reduce the chance of premature engagement. It isn't a solid line; less severe premature engagement acts more like excessive wear.
Premature engagement is the sector trying to engage the piston's teeth before the piston is fully forward and at rest (as it should be normally).
Swiss cheeseing the piston will give you very little no RoF increase unless your piston is EXTREMELY heavy, or your spring very weak.
Decreases the return time of the piston, and gives a very slight ROF increase (so little it's not worth doing just for the RoF). It is used to help prevent premature engagement in high RoF setups. Best done AFTER all the usual mods, like swiss cheeseing, installing a stronger spring, etc.
Unless your gun is running into problems with premature engagement, don't bother with short-stroking. Less teeth means a higher rate of fire... BUT: short-stroking is a POOR way is actually INCREASEING your rate of fire. You lose FPS on a per-tooth basis, and a whole host of other drawbacks. Don't bother unless you are running a high-speed gun. Once you've used MOSFETs/batteries/motors/ect to get a decent RoF, THEN think about short-stroking to keep your gun running smoothly.
@Corvid it is not meant to increase FPS, it is meant to gain bb flight consistency and stability, and to decrease wear on your gearbox. More DMR aficianados make use of it because it can greatly help with accuracy.
Point 3, the tooth that the sector uses to release the piston has to be metal, the others do not. I tend to steer away from all metal teeth... I keep my piston as a "weak link". The pickup tooth lasts long enough if you correct the Angle of Engagement, and the other teeth last forever too. I just like the idea that if things go wrong, the system will chew the piston to shreds and not destroy expensive gears, the motor, motor pinion gear, melt wiring, blow fuses, blow the MOSFET, etc.
Cole is right. This loss of FPS is often desirable though. There are x ways to reduce Premature Engagement of the piston: Stronger spring, lighter piston, sector/piston tooth removal and lower RoF. If you do all of those (excluding the latter... high RoF is the aim :D), you end up with an FPS level which is pretty much unchanged, or at least acceptable: the stronger spring increases FPS (and reduces PE), tooth removal decreases the FPS (and reduces PE even more). Swings and roundabouts!
If you short stroke gears or get dual sector gears it does cause lower fps because it isn't pulling back the piston as far. So yes it will cause lower fps but it does not cause wear
You can do what you like, provided the number of teeth less that the now piston uses is the same as the number of teeth removed from the sector. And of course provided final tooth (closest to the piston head) is metal.
@buppus As far as I'm aware, the ports are only there to allow piston acceleration to occur before the BB is moved. If a gun has too short a barrel and no ports in the cylinder, the BB begins to move the moment the piston starts travelling forward, resulting in a lower FPS than if a vented cylinder were used. I'm not sure what all this has to do with shortstroking, shortstroking is something you just do if youre forced to, and accept that you'll get an FPS loss.
@s2Enko Performance wise to most people? Nothing! Basically, it means the piston has less distance to travel, and thus hits the cylinder head sooner. This is very useful for high speed AEGs. It helps edge the sector away from prematurely engaging the piston pickup, and also helps to give the gun a little more leeway when things go wrong (jams being the main issue!).
Good old Kraftwerk, very strange band indeed! Not a huge fan of their music, but I find them very inspiring, if that makes sense!
I'd hold up on that Tony, see if it levels out after a few thousand rounds, or as seals degrade slightly. If it's still high, I'd personally be enlarging the vent in the cylinder towards the barrel, that will give precise reduction to exactly what you want, without major mods to the gearbox! Unless you're running really high speed, in which case, tooth removal is a useful backup to have in case of jams and the like!
kid you're the bomb... good job man... i'll be keepin a close eye on your posts for more tips and pointers
That, my friend, is Aerodynamik by Kraftwerk. They are to electronic music what Black Sabbath is to heavy metal, total pioneers. Some people compare them both to modern day music and find them a little strange, but I personally like hearing what modern electronic music (and heavy metal for that matter!) evolved from. Check out the live version of radioactivity on here, scary as fuck at the beginning, really powerful song though. All the more so after watching a documentary about Sellafield.
Considering that even moderate upgrades can crack the shells of half decent METAL gearboxes, I would strongly recomend against plastic ones. Having said that, any gun that comes with a plastic gearbox is going to be shite anyway. All gearbox internals are metal anyway if that's what you mean... minus the piston ofcourse, which is best kept plastic.
@italiansniperkill I personally remove the one that first engages the pickup tooth of the piston (and any more from that side too). In my head at least, this ensures the piston isn't released before the tappet plate has been released and fully come to rest, not screwing with the piston release in relation to the tappet plate timing is the aim. However, I strongly suspect it would only make a noticeable difference at VERY high speed, or if you removed a number of teeth from the "wrong" side.
@Maddafakka98 Basically, short-stroking reduces the distance the piston has to travel after it's released by the sector gear. This is the final modification performed after 2nd/3rd tooth removal, swiss cheesing the piston and installing a stronger spring. All of these reduce the chance of severe (and the severity of minor) premature engagement of the piston by the sector gear at very high rates of fire.
Is it necessary to remove the teeth from the piston? Can i just remove from the sector?
@buppus The cylinder stroke may not be directly used to power the BB, but the piston still has to move exactly the same distance. Given that the resistance from a BB only slows the piston down fractionally, shortstroking is still very much wise. It might be an idea to short-stroke as much as is needed (ignoring the ports) and then add new ports, and see if you actually see the FPS increase they're designed to cause.
Correct, I think. Point 2, you want to remove the teeth from the piston that RELEASE it, not the big tooth that is first engaged. That's probably what you mean though! As for which side of the SECTOR, I can't remember, it's been many years since I fired an AEG (must get back into airsoft), but one is better than the other, one results in the tappet being moved in a way that helps feeding.
REALLY good video, everything is clear and well-explained and no waffle. :-)
Unless I'm not quite understanding you, youve got the wrong end of the stick (or piston in this case). Shortstroking involves removing teeth from the sector gear and sometimes from the piston (depending on the number of metal teeth).
Shortstroking has nothing to do with removing (or the lack of) teeth at the pickup end of the piston (i.e. opposite to the head end). I say this because VERY few pistons come shortstroked, while many have the 2nd and even 3rd teeth missing right out the package.
FYI, it is true, the last tooth, or tooth closest to the piston MUST be left metal.
you ss the sector gear. not the piston. you can ss the piston but don't need to but it does reduce the weight to help the piston return faster. due to the reduced wight. it can also slightly increase fps but it's not necessary, the sector gear is infinitely more important when it comes to short stroking. the main reason you shot stoke is to reduce the fps. if you are doing a 350 fps 25-30 rps trigger response build that's when you short stroke. of course, on standard 18:1 or even 16:1 gears you can definitely get away with a m100 spring and an 11.1 but as your rof goes up you need a heavier spring. on 13:1 you need a m110 which is why you take 1 or 2 teeth off. but if its an outdoor gun, chances are you have a m120. you also can't ss too much if your gun has a long barrel. you can under volume it if you do.
Yes, in theory (and apparently in practice) it does. However, I'd suspect you'd only see noticeable problems when taking off 2 or more teeth. I've tried both ways with no ill effects. I usually remove the tooth that first picks up the piston, but then again, I've only ever needed to shortstroke one tooth. Playing around with some spare gearbox parts would probably give a reasonable theoretical answer.
@buppus Sounds like a plan! I beleive RiotSC does a spacer much like that for use with his batshit-insane dual sector gear. Does the same job as a stronger spring, but without the spring! That said, there could always be an advantage to having the spring highly compressed throughout the entire cycle, but who knows. An adjustable spacer (or spacers) would be handy, should be possible to fine tune FPS that way.
Because plastic is MUCH less dense than Aluminium or even Titanium. Both of which are either too heavy or too strong: would you rather strip a $12 TM piston, or a $50 Titanium piston which ruins your entire gearset in the process? You want the piston to weigh as little as you possibly can in a high RoF AEG. And yeah, polycarbonate is just a type of plastic.
Nope, this only applies to removing the FINAL teeth of the piston (i.e. changing which tooth is the release tooth) and taking teeth off the sector gear (both of which are done to do "shortstroking").
Be aware of people telling you to "fix" your AoE by doing X: most people fail to realise that it varies from gun to gun, gearbox to gearbox: it is far better to CHECK your AoE by playing around with half the gearbox shell with the spring removed.
100% agree that's what helped me...
best learning animation movie ewer. thank u.
Yes, it's VERY safe when done well. I'll PM you a picture of one of my pistons, it may seem insane, but you can go a LONG way if you know what you're doing and keep the structure intact. You'll possibly see FPS LOSS, though this is disputed heavily (some say heavy pistons increase FPS, if they do, it's not by much in my experience). It's actually done to increase the velocity of the PISTON, reducing Premature Engagement. The lack of weight is supposedly worse for compressing air FPS wise.
@Corvid my understanding of cylinder ports is to keep a certain volume ratio between the cylinder and the barrel. It's not a pressure issue - it's a volume issue. If you want more pressure, increase spring compression, but what I'm talking about is eliminating inefficiencies in the pressure system that result from too much cylinder volume compared to the barrel volume. In this light, what would be the purpose of adding new ports? Wouldn't that create a negative cylinder/barrel volume imbalance?
So in theory, Shortstroking will prevent Pre Mature Engagement? What exactly is Premature engagement on a normal gearbox running at high speeds? How much of an increase of ROF will I get with swiss cheesing the piston?
I took off two. I figured it was logical considering it's a gun with high speed gears, high speed motor, and 12v battery. I'll play around with it and watch the air nozzle while spinning the gears. I do believe I did cut off the wrong teeth but no harm done, I have like 5 sets of CA gears.
Hi, my sector gear is not returning to start on quick tirger pulls, making the cutoff lever kick the trigger bus off its rack in semi. What can i do?
@zaidopinoy Yes, as long as the sector releases the piston from a metal tooth.
Hi, what software did you use to anime this?
Thanks!
Cinema 4D? I think! Man, i've not touched 3D modeling for a decade plus!
what difference would short stroking the piston make performance wise?
So if i were to just cut out one of the piston teeth in the front, I would be fine? I do have an irregular pitch spring, so is it fine?
btw, music nicely matches with the animation gj
@Corvid yes, you're right, that is one benefit of a ported cylinder. And the ports that are currently drilled in my cylinder are back too far to gain proper volume balance anyway. So I guess I could short-stroke, and then drill my own vent at the proper volume level. My gun currently shoots between 320 and 350 fps, so I might need to upgrade the spring if I decide to short stroke. What do you think?
I'm using a Sig 552 - meaning very short barrel (11.5"). To balance the volume between the cylinder and the barrel, the stock cylinder comes ported to vent off the excess air pressure. Therefore, the distance covered in a full cylinder stroke is not being used, and I should short stroke so that the cylinder head is just making it to the port-hole, correct?
Does it matter which teeth you cut off the sector gear? (IE the leading teeth that contact first or the end teeth that contact last?) I was wondering whether it would have a substantial effect on the timing for the air nozzle.
Is swisscheesing the piston safe? I saw you wrote about it in a comment and I was wondering about it I wanted to know how much it actually weakens the piston and a rough estimate of how much more FPS it can generate, and nice video
so is it ok to remove the necessary teeth on the sector gear without removing teeth off the piston? my piston has 8 metal teeth.....
@Corvid Ok, so just moving from the stock spring guide to a ball-bearing spring guide should offset the short-stroke - provided you're using a non-linear spring. My stock JG spring is unfortunately linear, so that may not work for me. Most people guess the JG stock spring to be somewhere around the M110 - they shoot ~330-350 FPS out of the box. If I was to replace the spring with a non-linear one, what strength would you recommend? (Not particularly concerned with ROF)
whats the weird song playing? its kinda... addicting!
why are they always plastic(i know about poly-carb pistons but isnt that still a form of plastic)
I remem you telling me it was Kraftwerks, but I never knew what the exact title of the song was, mind telling me?
@buppus Sounds a touch "mythical" to me, but hey. I'm sure it will be suitably proven/disproven over time! Just like the ideas that 35rps guns are "unrunnable" and "unreliable", or that dryfiring causes massive damage to your average setup gearbox.
@Corvid What do you think of adding spacers to the spring guide to pre-compress the spring, thereby compensating for the shortstroke?
@buppus Basically, yeah, you should only lose a bit of velocity. Have a look on the Airsoft Mechanics forum, RiotSC details the effects of extreme short-stroking during the use of his Cyclone sector gear. You should be able to fairly accurately work out how much you'll lose, but it won't be a massive amount for one tooth. Use what you need spring wise... I use an M110, nice balance of power, piston return speed, and not too much wear.
@buppus Depends on how effective you think porting really is, I'm sceptical that trying to balance anything will gain more than a few FPS. I'd say get a new spring if the final FPS is unacceptable.
thanks alot
forgive my ignorance here guys. if removing the teeth from the wheel and the bolt. wont the bolt not be pushed up enough and cause a lower fps?
so what does short stroking do?
@s2Enko Aerodynamik by Kraftwerk mate!
can someone tell me what the name of the song is?
Nice video thanks
thanks great video !!
@drescora Absolutely!
Thank you, i want to lower my FPS and since i use the lowest spring i can find this is my only option :)
You can also use different nozzles and barrels
brutal man, love the mods
@haronasi lol, whatever floats ya boat! I'll put some Benny Benassi to it next time!
you didnt mention which side of the sector to take teeth off
True, this was never designed as a tutorial, it was actually just designed to be embedded on an airsoft forum with a LOT more info! When I've got the time and money to airsoft again, I'll start a channel dedicated to high RoF step by step.
But what side do i have to take off in sector gear? The pick up or release tooth?
I have, but I remain unimpressed by just about everything Systema make. Plus I can't see there being much of an actual advantage upgrading to such a gearbox. Expensive gears to replace, what appears to be a random piston/cylinder head, and a poor quality MOSFET. Hardly 30+rps material. Even their so called "high speed" gearbox was practically a scam. I'll stick with a nice simple split ICS gearbox for the moment...
One, but anyone foolish enough to copy my setup "because it works" may well find out why you can't just copy another setup with regards to shortstroking. Not unless you've copied EVERYTHING else (i.e. spring, piston weight, AoE, exact Rof). The best way is to do the various mods FIRST, and then work out of your gun is still prematurely engaging the piston. That way shortstroking isn't unnecessarily done. Or worse, excessive and useless shortstroking is done!
Can you translate what you were saying into English?
@XxXscorpionXninjaXxx Ey, seemly you're new to the internet, lil girl?
I'll send you a PM mate.
lol what is the song? is it french?
Wipeout HD soundtrack i believe
kraftwerk aerodynamic
Wait, you made this in 2008?
Oh yeah! Back before I discovered the world of making music... I was a high RoF pioneer prior to deciding I'm on this earth to make music (along with RSM, ***ICE*** and a few other better known online figures in airsoft). 38rps was a blast on my ICS M4, I still have it somewhere!
@@Corvid damn bro ok 👌
kraftwerk?
This is like Pr0n.
My girl short strokes it every night.....and long strokes it every morning!
i didn't have to shortstroke my piston because it came like that (supercore)
its for a AEG airsoft gun
hahaha thanks a lot now i know how to add rof ehehehe hahaha!!!
@XxXscorpionXninjaXxx "You're a girl, Your argument is invalid."
So in lame mans term short stroking is helpful if your raising your rps
@XxXscorpionXninjaXxx Trolls, they're everywhere.
Hope you don't suffer from PE. I gather that's a medical abbreviation from something just as undesirable as Premature Engagement.... :p
@XxXscorpionXninjaXxx I got blocked, how come then am I commenting you, kid?
Drive
WERD!
hehehe
hahaha i want to know
@s2Enko Performance wise to most people? Nothing! Basically, it means the piston has less distance to travel, and thus hits the cylinder head sooner. This is very useful for high speed AEGs. It helps edge the sector away from prematurely engaging the piston pickup, and also helps to give the gun a little more leeway when things go wrong (jams being the main issue!).
Good old Kraftwerk, very strange band indeed! Not a huge fan of their music, but I find them very inspiring, if that makes sense!
what difference would short stroking the piston make performance wise?
So if i were to just cut out one of the piston teeth in the front, I would be fine? I do have an irregular pitch spring, so is it fine?
btw, music nicely matches with the animation gj